Support NeoGAF

[bengraven]

But why do hardhome at all? Talk about it and spend the money on some cgi horses for stannis or on zombie Catelyn hanging Briene. Let Jayme conquer some castles in the riverlands. With Charles Dance gone the whole show somehow feels as empty as the plot now. No greatness anymore. Still baffled by the lack off passion this season.

Hardhome is a very very strange thing. I was extremely confused as to why they chose to go there.

But I can see it now. It's a sort of mysterious and polarizing place. There are rumors of white walkers attacking wildlings there, no NW wants to go there, and yet we have to have a major reason why they hate Snow now. So they send Jon himself there, effectively abandoning his post and this is how they get Snow stabbed and likely when he returns with nothing to show from this except a few tales of wildlings. And WE get a massive battle with wildlings vs. NW vs. Others.

I don't see Stannis losing to the Boltons. Not after reading how everything is setup in the books. He's a battle commander damnit ;(

I'm not sure how any of that will play out. We all assume it will be one beating the other, but who knows if that will be the outcome. It may be stalemate. It may end the season with Stannis surrounding the Boltons.

Yeah, even the writing is really good in isolation. Each individual scene is great. Just when you try to strong them together in a larger story, you realize it's going nowhere and is just wallowing in misery. It feels like the show has lost that string of hope that always kept the books afloat, through all the horror of Storm and all the dullness of the later books. I really wish they had better shown the Northern politics and let Sansa play the game with the Northern lords.

That's exactly it. Exactly.

This goes back to what I was talking about a few days ago where George would have his "moments". His moment in a scene where you go AH! or ARGH!. Cersei getting hers from the Sparrows, Tyrion showing up to save an undressed Sansa, the Red Wedding, Bronn agreeing to fight for Tyrion, Littlefinger turning on Ned - from the big moments to the little ones, he's much more talented at bringing us those than DD. DD is great with dialogue and setting a scene, but they never ever come up with good "moments". Just a slow, atmospheric scene with no AH!. Now that we're going beyond George's books, we're going to get less of these AH/ARGH! moments in favor of more DD's hands on and it's going to start lacking those great cliffhangers and true shock moments.

And among those, like GRRM mentioned on the Purple Wedding episode, is that he allows moments of "joy" in all the destruction. We see Joffrey die, Tyrion smacks Joffrey or makes a great come back to him or his mother, Cersei gets her. Something to finally give us a smile.

So far this season has lacked those scenes except the few that GRRM wrote. I don't predict a happy ending with DD in charge dictating what happens now.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Hardhome is a very very strange thing. I was extremely confused as to why they chose to go there.

But I can see it now. It's a sort of mysterious and polarizing place. There are rumors of white walkers attacking wildlings there, no NW wants to go there, and yet we have to have a major reason why they hate Snow now. So they send Jon himself there, effectively abandoning his post and this is how they get Snow stabbed and likely when he returns with nothing to show from this except a few tales of wildlings. And WE get a massive battle with wildlings vs. NW vs. Others.

And among those, like GRRM mentioned on the Purple Wedding episode, is that he allows moments of "joy" in all the destruction. We see Joffrey die, Tyrion smacks Joffrey or makes a great come back to him or his mother, Cersei gets her. Something to finally give us a smile.

So far this season has lacked those scenes except the few that GRRM wrote. I don't predict a happy ending with DD in charge dictating what happens now.

Hardhome makes complete sense, the viewers need to be reminded about the threat of the White Walkers and frankly it's something Martin should have included in ADWD. Afterall, they are supposedly the big end game threat and yet we haven't seen them barely at all in either medium. I suspect we'll get a ton more info on them via Benjen Stark in TWOW but the show needs to start building them up as a threat now not later.

I also agree with you that D&D don't really understand how to write GoT. Martin has plenty of violence and bad shit happening in general but he also knows that no one wants to read a doom and gloom book about torture, he has tons of light moments to balance things out. He also knows not to screw with the Stark kids too much since they've already gotten enough shit thrown at them. The House of Black and White scenes just show how much D&D don't get it, suddenly what were fun chapters in the book become much more akin to abuse for Arya.

 

[Iksenpets]

Hardhome is a very very strange thing. I was extremely confused as to why they chose to go there.

But I can see it now. It's a sort of mysterious and polarizing place. There are rumors of white walkers attacking wildlings there, no NW wants to go there, and yet we have to have a major reason why they hate Snow now. So they send Jon himself there, effectively abandoning his post and this is how they get Snow stabbed and likely when he returns with nothing to show from this except a few tales of wildlings. And WE get a massive battle with wildlings vs. NW vs. Others.



I'm not sure how any of that will play out. We all assume it will be one beating the other, but who knows if that will be the outcome. It may be stalemate. It may end the season with Stannis surrounding the Boltons.



That's exactly it. Exactly.

This goes back to what I was talking about a few days ago where George would have his "moments". His moment in a scene where you go AH! or ARGH!. Cersei getting hers from the Sparrows, Tyrion showing up to save an undressed Sansa, the Red Wedding, Bronn agreeing to fight for Tyrion, Littlefinger turning on Ned - from the big moments to the little ones, he's much more talented at bringing us those than DD. DD is great with dialogue and setting a scene, but they never ever come up with good "moments". Just a slow, atmospheric scene with no AH!. Now that we're going beyond George's books, we're going to get less of these AH/ARGH! moments in favor of more DD's hands on and it's going to start lacking those great cliffhangers and true shock moments.

And among those, like GRRM mentioned on the Purple Wedding episode, is that he allows moments of "joy" in all the destruction. We see Joffrey die, Tyrion smacks Joffrey or makes a great come back to him or his mother, Cersei gets her. Something to finally give us a smile.

So far this season has lacked those scenes except the few that GRRM wrote. I don't predict a happy ending with DD in charge dictating what happens now.

Yep. When D&D go for big moments they almost always fall flat. When they write small dialogue scenes, they pretty consistently strike gold, even if sometimes that gold is in service of plots they've written that make no sense.

What's really frustrating, is I can see in this season a framework for a condensed, one-season version of Feast/Dance that really would work, and really could be better than the books. This just isn't it. Merging Jaime into Dorne totally works, cutting Arianne and Quentyn works, if you had written a decent Dorne plot line to go along with it. Merging Sansa into Winterfell, sending Brienne North with her, totally works, if you had thought out solid arcs for Sansa and Theon. Cutting the Griffs and speeding up Tyrion's journey has been great. Postponing the Riverlands and Iron Islands plot, it all works and all could have been a great streamlined season. But what they wrote is not the version that works. It's sad to see them genuinely have a lot of good ideas, and just flub the execution so that it all falls flat.

And Hardhome makes sense and is another really good move, I think. Stresses the threat of the Walkers, and it gives a good way for Jon to translate his command into action before he goes down. It's a good way to visualize for viewers how much he's willing to put on the line for the wildlings.

 

[bengraven]

Hardhome makes complete sense, the viewers need to be reminded about the threat of the White Walkers and frankly it's something Martin should have included in ADWD. Afterall, they are supposedly the big end game threat and yet we haven't seen them barely at all in either medium. I suspect we'll get a ton more info on them via Benjen Stark in TWOW but the show needs to start building them up as a threat now not later.

I also agree with you that D&D don't really understand how to write GoT. Martin has plenty of violence and bad shit happening in general but he also knows that no one wants to read a doom and gloom book about torture, he has tons of light moments to balance things out. He also knows not to screw with the Stark kids too much since they've already gotten enough shit thrown at them. The House of Black and White scenes just show how much D&D don't get it, suddenly what were fun chapters in the book become much more akin to abuse for Arya.

We should have had a POV in Hardhome.

Yep. When D&D go for big moments they almost always fall flat. When they write small dialogue scenes, they pretty consistently strike gold, even if sometimes that gold is in service of plots they've written that make no sense.

What's really frustrating, is I can see in this season a framework for a condensed, one-season version of Feast/Dance that really would work, and really could be better than the books. This just isn't it. Merging Jaime into Dorne totally works, cutting Arianne and Quentyn works, if you had written a decent Dorne plot line to go along with it. Merging Sansa into Winterfell, sending Brienne North with her, totally works, if you had thought out solid arcs for Sansa and Theon. Cutting the Griffs and speeding up Tyrion's journey has been great. Postponing the Riverlands and Iron Islands plot, it all works and all could have been a great streamlined season. But what they wrote is not the version that works. It's sad to see them genuinely have a lot of good ideas, and just flub the execution so that it all falls flat.

That's why the first few seasons were great. They were GRRM's books, plus some fusion scenes of character building by D and D.

Since they've decided to retcon the books, they could have easily FOLLOWED the books more closely, but retconned that. Give the Riverlands more drama for Jaime (hell, bring Bronn THERE). Do the Iron Islands and the tension between Euron and Victarion, just do it YOUR way. Maybe Victarion's wife is still alive and Euron is fucking her on the side or something. I don't care about the Water Gardens, I want to see the goddamn BONES that make up the MOOT.

And seriously? FUCK DORNE. That could have easily been ONE episode itself. We see Doran, someone sneaks in to take Myrcella from the water gardens, she gets cut, Doran says "this could be war", scene is over - we get more Dorne next season.

 

[Lothar]

I just don't get it. So the producers say that a hardened woman made a decision to marry Ramsay and be assaulted for revenge and to reclaim the North. So an episode later she's trying to escape?

this x100. It's like they were describing an entirely different scene/show. Not just for this, but for the Cersei rape last year. I guess they're really serious about treating viewers like dullards.

I was the one who first posted that quote to laugh at it last week. link Cogman might have just worded it really horribly. He made an update to that article a few days later.

"UPDATE: Bryan Cogman tweeted the following: “Hi all. Not going to comment further but I do want to clarify something from the @EW interview that was conducted on set a few months ago: The ‘choice’ I was referring to was Sansa’s choice to marry Ramsay and walk into that room. She feels marrying him is a vital step in reclaiming her homeland. Not trying to change anyone’s opinion of the scene (negative or otherwise) but that it what I was … Ok, LAST last word. In NO WAY… NO WAY was that comment an attempt to ‘blame the victim.’ If it seemed that way I’m deeply sorry.” "

It's still worded badly. He seems to be saying she made the choice just to marry Ramsay, not the choice to be raped. He should have flat out said that.

But we have to be fair. Even if we didn't like that scene is episode 5, the show is clearly saying it was a rape with a serious effect on Sansa. They aren't handling it like she chose to be assaulted. A lot of us were thinking they might just have her blow it off. Like Jaime/Cersei last year. I give them credit for not doing that and handling the aftermath right. I was worried with that Cogman quote.

In a way, since Sansa got married willingly and walked to the bedroom willingly but yet was still raped and it changed all of her plans and broke her willpower, you could actually say it's making a serious statement against marital rape.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I was the one who first posted that quote to laugh at it last week. link Cogman might have just worded it really horribly. He made an update to that article a few days saying

"UPDATE: Bryan Cogman tweeted the following: “Hi all. Not going to comment further but I do want to clarify something from the @EW interview that was conducted on set a few months ago: The ‘choice’ I was referring to was Sansa’s choice to marry Ramsay and walk into that room. She feels marrying him is a vital step in reclaiming her homeland. Not trying to change anyone’s opinion of the scene (negative or otherwise) but that it what I was … Ok, LAST last word. In NO WAY… NO WAY was that comment an attempt to ‘blame the victim.’ If it seemed that way I’m deeply sorry.” "

It's still worded badly. He seems to be saying she made the choice just to marry Ramsay, not the choice to be raped. He should have flat out said that.

But we have to be fair. Even if we didn't like that scene is episode 5, the show is clearly saying it was a rape with a serious effect on Sansa. A lot of us were thinking they might just have her blow it off. Like Jaime/Cersei last year. I give them credit for not doing that and handling the aftermath right. I was worried with that Cogman quote.

In a way, since Sansa got married willingly and walked to the bedroom willingly but yet was still raped and it changed all of her plans and broke her willpower, you could say it's making a serious statement against marital rape.

So Sansa willingly took the choice to marry someone oblivious to the fact that marriage requires consummation especially after having already having been married off before and going through that process?

 

[Red Arremer]

We should have had a POV in Hardhome.

I was hoping so bad that Cotter Pyke would become a POV, if only for a prologue/epilogue chapter.

And seriously? FUCK DORNE. That could have easily been ONE episode itself. We see Doran, someone sneaks in to take Myrcella from the water gardens, she gets cut, Doran says "this could be war", scene is over - we get more Dorne next season.

I was looking forward to Dorne, but they pretty much cut the entire substance out of it. Not even counting the Quentynquest and folding Arianne into Ellaria (which is fine by me, I mean they already cast Ellaria, might as well use her), but the complete ineptitude of Ellaria's plan, the incompetence of the Sand Snakes (heck, all 3 of them are just sexy "warrior" gals, instead of following vastly different themes in their dangerousness). They completely axed the scene with Arianne and company traveling out into the deserts with Myrcella. I was actually genuinely looking forward to Darkstar just because of how his looks were described in the books, but all the Dornish characters are gone. Heck they even cut Arys Oakheart who DID appear in the boat that shipped Myrcella away:

(in the front, to the right) Where'd he go?

There's just so much inconsistency going on with the whole Dornish plot that comes from cutting way too much out and replacing it with some goofy ass Scooby Doo shyte nobody wanted to see. Like, I get that "the Sand Snakes" sounds badass and ominous, but their story was just in its infancy as the last book ended.

And let's not even start with the environment. I mean I understand that the area around the Water Gardens is likely to be lush, but Dorne is supposed to be an arid hellhole, even in the coastal cities like Sunspear. Yet this desert country looks exactly like the Riverlands or Crownlands.

I understand that some people don't like the Dorne stuff in the books (let alone in the show), but I'm a genuine lover of Dorne and everything Dornish. I was SO SO SO SO looking forward to Alexander Siddig portraying one of my favourite characters in the books, but in 7 episodes he got like 3 lines. I was looking forward to how they'd do the Water Gardens and Sunspear, but we barely see them. And they cut the entire meat of everything the Martell plot involved and just left a hollow shell that slightly resembles the mere shadow of a snake.
Heck they didn't even put "Sunspear" underneath Sunspear in the intro sequence, just "Dorne". :/

 

[Lothar]

So Sansa willingly took the choice to marry someone oblivious to the fact that marriage requires consummation especially after having already having been married off before and going through that process?

I was saying this same thing last week. I was confused by what she was thinking. But after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcnwhMrVJjg#t=61m I understand it. Please watch this video at this timestamp and tell me what you think.

She went into the bedroom ready to consent but Ramsay turned the situation into something she did not consent to. Starting with telling Theon to stay and watch.

 

[bengraven]

I was hoping so bad that Cotter Pyke would become a POV, if only for a prologue/epilogue chapter.

We could have had one for Winds, but apparently it's

Spoiler

Jeyne, Blackfish, or one of their retinue.

 

[pr0cs]

So I think Sansa is going to become the Ghost of Winterfell, killing Fat Walda to anger Roose, then killing Myranda to make Ramsey think that Roose killed her as revenge, sowing seeds of discord and all that. Roose then forces Ramsay to lead the vanguard against Stannis when it gets to that point.

Wow,that could work and would explain her continued attempts at pushing Ramsay in that direction.

Overall I liked the episode, Dorne is still a mess though some of the 'visuals' made up for the keystone cops fight from last week.
I was thrilled at how good Price is portraying High Sparrow and happy that Theons arc is still relatively close to the books.
I'd say one of the best episodes of the season thus far

 

[Iksenpets]

I was hoping so bad that Cotter Pyke would become a POV, if only for a prologue/epilogue chapter.




I was looking forward to Dorne, but they pretty much cut the entire substance out of it. Not even counting the Quentynquest and folding Arianne into Ellaria (which is fine by me, I mean they already cast Ellaria, might as well use her), but the complete ineptitude of Ellaria's plan, the incompetence of the Sand Snakes (heck, all 3 of them are just sexy "warrior" gals, instead of following vastly different themes in their dangerousness). They completely axed the scene with Arianne and company traveling out into the deserts with Myrcella. I was actually genuinely looking forward to Darkstar just because of how his looks were described in the books, but all the Dornish characters are gone. Heck they even cut Arys Oakheart who DID appear in the boat that shipped Myrcella away:


(in the front, to the right) Where'd he go?

There's just so much inconsistency going on with the whole Dornish plot that comes from cutting way too much out and replacing it with some goofy ass Scooby Doo shyte nobody wanted to see. Like, I get that "the Sand Snakes" sounds badass and ominous, but their story was just in its infancy as the last book ended.

And let's not even start with the environment. I mean I understand that the area around the Water Gardens is likely to be lush, but Dorne is supposed to be an arid hellhole, even in the coastal cities like Sunspear. Yet this desert country looks exactly like the Riverlands or Crownlands.

I understand that some people don't like the Dorne stuff in the books (let alone in the show), but I'm a genuine lover of Dorne and everything Dornish. I was SO SO SO SO looking forward to Alexander Siddig portraying one of my favourite characters in the books, but in 7 episodes he got like 3 lines. I was looking forward to how they'd do the Water Gardens and Sunspear, but we barely see them. And they cut the entire meat of everything the Martell plot involved and just left a hollow shell that slightly resembles the mere shadow of a snake.
Heck they didn't even put "Sunspear" underneath Sunspear in the intro sequence, just "Dorne". :/

Yeah, I like Dorne in the books. It has its bits of cartoonishness, but overall it's a solid intro to a new cast with some genuine drama behind it. I was glad it made the cut for the show. I was glad to see they were going all out for the locations. I liked the look of everyone they cast. I even like most of the costuming, with the exception of Tyene's weird bikini thing and their matching ninja battle outfits. But the writing's just been atrocious and it's ruined it.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Lots of good posts on this page about the good intentions of D and D that they're totally flubbing in the execution of these scenes.

As far as Sansa being the Ghost of Winterfell, I'm done speculating. I only expect the lowest common denominator from that story now, anything better will just be a bonus.

 

[bengraven]

I'm assuming Brienne is there in lieu of a ghost.

I wonder if she and Theon will meet and one will kill the other. Imagine the woman who killed the Mountain stabbed by a little shitheel like Theon.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

I'm assuming Brienne is there in lieu of a ghost.

I wonder if she and Theon will meet and one will kill the other. Imagine the woman who killed the Mountain stabbed by a little shitheel like Theon.

The Hound?

But yes agreed. Hoping the waiting gets to be too much and she goes in in disguise.

 

[bengraven]

The Hound?

But yes agreed. Hoping the waiting gets to be too much and she goes in in disguise.

I've been on GAF too long. Time for a break. You're right.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I was saying this same thing last week. I was confused by what she was thinking. But after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcnwhMrVJjg#t=61m I understand it. Please watch this video at this timestamp and tell me what you think.

She went into the bedroom ready to consent but Ramsay turned the situation into something she did not consent to. Starting with telling Theon to stay and watch.

Eh, I don't buy it because basically what it is saying is that had Ramsay not been so rough and humiliating she would have wanted to have sex with him or at least been okay with it. We know that's not true. If Tyrion had had sex with Sansa it would have essentially been rape because she definitely didn't want to but was forced into the marriage and the situation and could have hard repercussions if she did not consent. Luckily, Tyrion was a nice guy and gracefully refused unless she wanted to.

 

[Last Hearth]

They sure are, Still i´m wondering about the always mentioned gigantic budget of this show. Certainly not seeing it this season. Or it all went into dragon cgi.
Laughable sets all around.

So much is with how they spent the money, I feel that a lot of money are spent on things that don't show up on the screen. A lot of the money are spent on sets and props, like the really elaborate weapons and armor. They built a whole value with a opening mechanism just for the final scene of Dany locking 2 people in it. They made over 600 hand painted individual unique faces just for the Hall of Faces scene that lasted 2 minutes and where you can't most of those faces clearly any way.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Sansa was ready to consummate, she probably psyched herself up to do so, and it probably wasn't easy. But to have the scumbag who you think killed your brothers and sacked your home watch while your clothes are torn off is a lot different than what she had in her head.

 

[Lothar]

Eh, I don't buy it because basically what it is saying is that had Ramsay not been so rough and humiliating she would have wanted to have sex with him or at least been okay with it.

How's about she was willing to endure it. Ramsay turned the scene into a nightmare that she wasn't prepared to and wasn't capable of enduring. Can you agree with that? I think that makes sense.

 

[someday]

So Sansa willingly took the choice to marry someone oblivious to the fact that marriage requires consummation especially after having already having been married off before and going through that process?

I felt that she was prepared to consummate the marriage. But what Ramsay did wasn't consummation, it was rape. I don't really know how to explain the difference if you don't already see it but it exists.

 

[Yankee Ruin X]

I get the feeling they are using Mellisandre wanting to burn Shireen as a way to get Stanis to send her back to the wall which will set everything up for later on.

 

[Basileus777]

I get the feeling they are using Mellisandre wanting to burn Shireen as a way to get Stanis to send her back to the wall which will set everything up for later on.

They could have just left her at the Wall like in the books. I doubt it's just that. I'm guessing something happens to Stannis and Mel convinces Selyse to burn Shireen.

 

[Madness]

So I think Sansa is going to become the Ghost of Winterfell, killing Fat Walda to anger Roose, then killing Myranda to make Ramsey think that Roose killed her as revenge, sowing seeds of discord and all that. Roose then forces Ramsay to lead the vanguard against Stannis when it gets to that point.

Yeah literally none of that will happen. Sansa will continue to be brutalized and beg for help from Reek who will slowly start to become Theon. Brienne will inevitably make a move and try to get her to escape, and all of them will probably head to Jon at the Wall because Sansa heard he's the Lord Commander now but instead will meet up with Stannis.

 

[demosthenes]

So I think Sansa is going to become the Ghost of Winterfell, killing Fat Walda to anger Roose, then killing Myranda to make Ramsey think that Roose killed her as revenge, sowing seeds of discord and all that. Roose then forces Ramsay to lead the vanguard against Stannis when it gets to that point.

This would be amazing. Therefore it won't happen.

 

[ryseing]

And seriously? FUCK DORNE. That could have easily been ONE episode itself. We see Doran, someone sneaks in to take Myrcella from the water gardens, she gets cut, Doran says "this could be war", scene is over - we get more Dorne next season.

I love Dorne. Unbowed unbent unbroken motherfuckers. When I saw the casting and heard that we would be spending a fair amount of time there this season, I was incredibly excited. But the plot has been shit, Doran's been incredibly underused, poor Ellaria has had the worst character assassination since early Stannis, and the Sand Snakes have somehow become even bigger jokes.

Dorne could have been incredible, but D&D done fucked up. Again.

 

[Incandenza]

Any guesses on the chances of a Stannis/Brienne fight and if so, chances of Brienne surviving? If they really wanna get brutal (and really don't give a shit about Lady Stoneheart or the Jaime/Brienne relationship) I could see Brienne beating up Stannis real bad, then Stannis suddenly overpowering her and killing her, then returning to camp to find that Mel burned Shireen so that he could win.

 

[Yankee Ruin X]

They could have just left her at the Wall like in the books. I doubt it's just that. I'm guessing something happens to Stannis and Mel convinces Selyse to burn Shireen.

Not really Mel told him before that his battle on Blackwater failed because he didn't take her with him so to leave her at the wall as he heads off into battle again would not make sense. So having Mel constantly telling him to sacrifice his daughter will probably push him to send her away. I honestly can't see them actually going through with burning her on the show despite everything.

Also this will probably seal Stanis's fate in losing this battle for the North

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Any guesses on the chances of a Stannis/Brienne fight and if so, chances of Brienne surviving? If they really wanna get brutal (and really don't give a shit about Lady Stoneheart or the Jaime/Brienne relationship) I could see Brienne beating up Stannis real bad, then Stannis suddenly overpowering her and killing her, then returning to camp to find that Mel burned Shireen so that he could win.

Stannis has always been a commander not a hand to had fighter. If it comes to that, I'd imagine he's toast.

 

[Speevy]

The problem I'm having is Littlefinger's play. It doesn't seem like Stannis is going to weaken the Boltons at all, so why would Littlefinger risk attacking them?

 

[Judderman]

Yeah literally none of that will happen. Sansa will continue to be brutalized and beg for help from Reek who will slowly start to become Theon. Brienne will inevitably make a move and try to get her to escape, and all of them will probably head to Jon at the Wall because Sansa heard he's the Lord Commander now but instead will meet up with Stannis.

She didn't pick up that corkscrew for no reason hopefully. This is where her Littlefinger training comes into play. Hopefully. Please D&D.

 

[Basileus777]

Not really Mel told him before that his battle on Blackwater failed because he didn't take her with him so to leave her at the wall as he heads off into battle again would not make sense. So having Mel constantly telling him to sacrifice his daughter will probably push him to send her away. I honestly can't see them actually going through with burning her on the show despite everything.

Also this will probably seal Stanis's fate in losing this battle for the North

They didn't need to put that conversation in. Leaving her at the Wall would make perfect sense, it's what happens in the source material. The writers chose not to do it that way, the question is why.

 

[Speevy]

I can't say I'd hate seeing Sansa put a corkscrew or whatever through Ramsay's neck.

 

[ChaosZeroX]

Honestly, I think Theon will come around imo. Sansa will try to kill Ramsay and he stops her. He starts to torture her and Theon can't take it anymore and kills Ramsay with a Sword or something. If someone is to kill Ramsay; it should be Theon imo. He took his manhood.

 

[Basileus777]

Honestly, I think Theon will come around imo. Sansa will try to kill Ramsay and he stops her. He starts to torture her and Theon can't take it anymore and kills Ramsay with a Sword or something. If someone is to kill Ramsay; it should be Theon imo. He took his manhood.

Are there people who don't think Theon will come around?

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Are there people who don't think Theon will come around?

The showrunners.

 

[Speevy]

I just thought of something. If you look at the Yara running from dogs scene, it can symbolize Sansa's journey.

She wanted the north back, but it didn't want her back, and now she's leaving because it's dead to her.

Perhaps this is D&D's bizarre way of saying you can't go home again?

 

[Speevy]

If Stannis DID kill Shireen and persevere in battle, wouldn't that give viewers a reason to root for Brienne putting a sword in him?

 

[cj_iwakura]

I hope Sansa doesn't have to go through anymore. My friend thinks it's getting way out of hand, and I agree. I get where they're going with it, but I've seen enough. Give her some means of inflicting payback, and soon.

 

[Incandenza]

If Stannis DID kill Shireen and persevere in battle, wouldn't that give viewers a reason to root for Brienne putting a sword in him?

If Shireen dies it won't be by Stannis's hand. That would be total heel-turn territory and they already have enough villainy with Ramsay.

 

[Speevy]

Concerning Sansa's "coming around", I had not read the books at the end of season 3 and so I thought Arya was going to sail for Braavos at the beginning of season 4.

This was because she looked at the coin in season 3, episode 10.

The reason I bring this up is that this show takes a long time to bring characters towards their destination.

You could argue that Arya learned absolutely nothing in season 4 that she didn't equally learn in season 3. Life sucks. Your family is dead. Get the hell out of here.

 

[Speevy]

If Shireen dies it won't be by Stannis's hand. That would be total heel-turn territory and they already have enough villainy with Ramsay.

Maybe Ramsay kills Shireen, and Stannis rides through on a horse and puts a burning sword through his head.

I just want to see Ramsay die, however it happens.

The person who said he's Joffrey 2.0 is dead on. The showrunners like having a 100% pure evil character.

 

[ChaosZeroX]

Maybe Ramsay kills Shireen, and Stannis rides through on a horse and puts a burning sword through his head.

I just want to see Ramsay die, however it happens.

The person who said he's Joffrey 2.0 is dead on. The showrunners like having a 100% pure evil character.

Who takes Ramsay's place once hes dead? I assume the White walkers will be around by that time.

 

[Tabris]

Do you think this was purposeful foreshadowing (season 2) re: Theon:

https://youtu.be/qYPi2s9Xcys?t=212

 

[Drazgul]

Stannis has always been a commander not a hand to had fighter. If it comes to that, I'd imagine he's toast.

He'll just command his hands to kill her, and they dare not refuse him.

 

[Speevy]

Do you think this was purposeful foreshadowing (season 2) re: Theon:

https://youtu.be/qYPi2s9Xcys?t=212

I think they spent all their northerners casting budget on the water gardens.

 

[Speevy]

I think they basically consolidated a little too far with their early season decisions.

Ramsay is killing northmen for not paying taxes, so we're too assume that all northerners either heel or die. The show has left us with the indication that the northern houses are afraid of the Boltons.

If northerners show discontent, they can't just be discontent. They must be flayed. It's a band-aid fix for a complex problem.

 

[Madness]

She didn't pick up that corkscrew for no reason hopefully. This is where her Littlefinger training comes into play. Hopefully. Please D&D.

That was before she found out her Northern friend was flayed alive and that Reek gave away her plan to light a candle in the Broken Tower. Why would she kill Ramsay now? Before she could've done it the moment she heard whatever help was arriving, kill Ramsay and run etc.

Her Littlefinger training went out the window the second she married Ramsay. Littlefinger didn't know who Ramsay was. No one knew about Ramsay. He thought Sansa would play him like Margaery plays Tommen. I do envision Theon finding some way to overcome his brainwashing and lighting some kind of flame inside the Broken Tower, but guaranteed Ramsay has it guarded now. Brienne and Theon will probably escape with Sansa by the end of the season, in my opinion.

 

[Judderman]

That was before she found out her Northern friend was flayed alive and that Reek gave away her plan to light a candle in the Broken Tower. Why would she kill Ramsay now? Before she could've done it the moment she heard whatever help was arriving, kill Ramsay and run etc.

Her Littlefinger training went out the window the second she married Ramsay. Littlefinger didn't know who Ramsay was. No one knew about Ramsay. He thought Sansa would play him like Margaery plays Tommen. I do envision Theon finding some way to overcome his brainwashing and lighting some kind of flame inside the Broken Tower, but guaranteed Ramsay has it guarded now. Brienne and Theon will probably escape with Sansa by the end of the season, in my opinion.

I didn't say anything about killing Ramsay.

 

[Madness]

I didn't say anything about killing Ramsay.

My mistake. I thought you meant that Sansa could use the corkscrew still for some kind of attack. Maybe she could kill Myranda with it, if she gets teased long enough. Ramsay knows he needs Sansa alive, what better way to get back at him to kill Myranda, a kennel masters daughter who nobody but Ramsay will care about.

I think they basically consolidated a little too far with their early season decisions.

Ramsay is killing northmen for not paying taxes, so we're too assume that all northerners either heel or die. The show has left us with the indication that the northern houses are afraid of the Boltons.

If northerners show discontent, they can't just be discontent. They must be flayed. It's a band-aid fix for a complex problem.

Double post, but remember, after the Red Wedding, the Boltons are the only Northern house (aside from the Manderlys of White Harbor), who still have their houses and their lords and numbers intact. There isn't a house left in the North to challenge the Boltons directly. Sure they can all band together, which is why in the books, Ser Davos is sent on a quest by Lord Manderly to receive Rickon so that the North will rally towards a Stark Lord again. But currently, almost all the major houses suffered ridiculous losses in senior leadership, numbers, men. That's why they accepting Bolton control for the time being.

 

[Speevy]

This sounds probably too crazy/stupid, but if Littlefinger's future plans involve both Olenna Tyrell and Winterfell, what if Margaery and Loras were spirited out of the faith dungeons and allied with the Eyrie and LIttlefinger? Then the combined armies took Winterfell with an overwhelming force and rebelled against the crown?