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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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eot

Banned
we do not know the outcome of the battle in the books, that is true.
but we do know from the e10 preview
that stannis will besiege winterfell, I do not expect them to stray that far away from the books, stannis will win that battle.
but the snowstorm in the books has not passed has it?

No, I think the weather is just getting worse and worse there, but he's not going to be in any position to
decide whether or not to burn shireen. Maybe he burns Theon instead and the weather gets better, but that's still quite a big change
 
we do not know the outcome of the battle in the books, that is true.
but we do know from the e10 preview
that stannis will besiege winterfell, I do not expect them to stray that far away from the books, stannis will win that battle.
but the snowstorm in the books has not passed has it?

Eh? Last we hear of Stannis in the books is in Ramsay's letter, which states he's dead. I doubt it's true, but he certainly hasn't won.

The Winds of Winter preview:

If anything it sounds like Stannis is stuck in the crofter's village.
 
So am I getting this right? The entire episode leaked?

And
Stannis will burn Shireen? That's total fucking bullshit.

There's no way it's going down the same way in the books.
In the books he has Asha. He has Theon, looking for redemption.

Fuck this show.
 

ctothej

Member
Just to be clear, everyone is spoiler tagging stuff from the episode 9 leak right? Because it'd really suck to have stuff given away just hours before the episode.

EDIT: Wow, guess not! Abandon thread.
 

Moff

Member
Eh? Last we hear of Stannis in the books is in Ramsay's letter, which states he's dead. I doubt it's true, but he certainly hasn't won.

The Winds of Winter preview:

If anything it sounds like Stannis is stuck in the crofter's village.
well ramsey lied about stannis being dead, so why assume that the rest is true?
if stannis lives, that means at least the boltons retreated.
No, I think the weather is just getting worse and worse there, but he's not going to be in any position to
decide whether or not to burn shireen. Maybe he burns Theon instead and the weather gets better, but that's still quite a big change


I think he snowstorm battle is over and he realizes he needs to march on winterfell as soon as possible or they will all starve and die, but they can't move because of the snowstorm.
ramsay probably realized that which is why he wrote in the letter that stannis is dead, ramsay is sure stannis will die in the storm.
stannis will then have an opportunity to send a rider to fetch melisandre. but she will return with shireen...
and stannis will have to make a hard decision. of course she might burn her witthout his knowlege, but then stannis will not be confronted with that choice, and as I said I do not think that is a bad thing,
I think that is a very interesting situation for his character and I do not consider it bad writing.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Said the same when Ned died and when Mommy and son died in season 3. Only brought in more viewers.

There was no such significant sentiment about Ned. Ned's death is pretty much the defining moment of the series. I'm sure somebody said they'd lose viewers, but not many.

People definitely said it about the Red Wedding, which indeed wasn't true. The difference now is that we're actually seeing sentiment in the other thread and even among some media that people are getting sick of the show's shtick. To add these other two events may genuinely cross a line for a lot of people.
 

Zolo

Member
Just to be clear, everyone is spoiler tagging stuff from the episode 9 leak right? Because it'd really suck to have stuff given away just hours before the episode.

Best to go away until the episode's aired. Most is getting spoiler-tagged, but discussion is still getting leaked out.
 

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
Just to be clear, everyone is spoiler tagging stuff from the episode 9 leak right? Because it'd really suck to have stuff given away just hours before the episode.
In theory, everyone is spoiler tagging E9 (and beyond) stuff from the leak. In reality, a lot of shit was posted outside tags.
 
well ramsey lied about stannis being dead, so why assume that the rest is true?
if stannis lives, that means at least the boltons retreated.

What I meant was that you said you didn't think they'd stray too far from the books which is why he'd win the siege, but that hasn't happened in the books.

Also, the Boltons still hold Winterfell. If Stannis lives it doesn't mean that the Boltons have lost anything. It could be Stannis who retreats.
 

Moff

Member
What I meant was that you said you didn't think they'd stray too far from the books which is why he'd win the siege, but that hasn't happened in the books.

Also, the Boltons still hold Winterfell. If Stannis lives it doesn't mean that the Boltons have lost anything. It could be Stannis who retreats.

no not the siege, the battle in the snowstorm

book: battle in the storm, boltons retreat, stannis needs to march on witerfell, melisandre comes and clears the storm
show: ramsay sabotages stannis, stannis needs to march on winterfell, melisandre clears the storm

I don't think that's far from the book, it's mostly saving budget by cutting another battle
 

suzu

Member
Is this what the book readers felt like when they got to watch show watcher reaction vids to the red wedding?

I seriously feel like this isn't much different... I know a lot of people who said they chucked the book when that happened and took a break. I don't get the visceral reactions that are taking place here. If you thought this story had a happy ending...

I don't think a lot of readers are
surprised about the sacrifice. The problem is the way it's going to go down in the show.
 
If you're going to talk about leaked episodes put the entire post in spoiler tags. Otherwise anyone with half a brain can guess what happens in the episode.
 

BeeDog

Member
It's hard to keep up with the pace of this topic, so I hope this hasn't been asked before, but... Is there any handy website that keeps track of the major deviations between the show and the books? I've read all books in the series but have realized I've forgotten so much stuff over the years, and anything that summarizes the changes would be great.
 

KingKong

Member
I find it weird how many people are saying "fuck the show" just because they're making a character so many have thought was good have to do something terrible for his ambition
 
I'm really curious to see D&D and GRRM's comments on the scene after the episode airs. There for sure will be an EW article about it and hopefully they also comment on it in the inside the episode.
 

TRios Zen

Member
Knew a girl in high-school that this show reminds me of. Infrequent highs, followed by a lot of putting up with bullshit I didn't much like.
Boo Stannis!
 
I find it weird how many people are saying "fuck the show" just because they're making a character so many have thought was good have to do something terrible for his ambition

I find it weird how they thought he was good, I mean, this is a man who used a shadow demon to kill his own brother.

And I love Stannis, but not because I thought he was good.
 
What gets me is that
it's apparent that the Stannis/Shireen scene was just there to make us feel extra bad when she gets burned. Not to mention the impetus being that 20 men single handedly destroyed all the supplies of the alleged best commander in Westeros.

Save us GRRM.
 
What gets me is that
it's apparent that the Stannis/Shireen scene was just there to make us feel extra bad when she gets burned. Not to mention the impetus being that 20 men single handedly destroyed all the supplies of the alleged best commander in Westeros.

Save us GRRM.

Don't worry TWoW will be out before Season 6
lol
 

Real Hero

Member
It is clear GRRM has become Jeyne Poole held captive by Ramsay (D&D) and is being forced to sleep with the their hounds (their adaption). Releasing The Winds of Winter will be his own personal jumping from the castle walls.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
I'm really curious to see D&D and GRRM's comments on the scene after the episode airs. They're for sure will be a EW article about it and hopefully they also comment on it in the inside the episode.

It's either a major deviation or a major spoiler. If it's the former, then I think GRRM's best move would be to just rerelease the Theon I preview with the line about putting his daughter in her throne. That would get the point across without calling D&D out directly, similar to the way he's just talked about missing Jeyne to quietly criticize their Sansa plot.

If it's the latter, which I really don't think it is, then we'll be in a really awkward situation. D&D will take a ton of flak for something that was ultimately GRRM's story choice, unless he's willing to release material showing they're being faithful on this beat.

That said, my impression, knowing where the story stands in the books at this moment, and what D&D's tendencies are as storyteller, is that Mel and Selyse will sacrifice Shireen at Castle Black without Stannis' knowledge or consent, as a response to the Pink Letter, and D&D just feel it's more ~dramatic~ if he makes that decision himself. I almost suspect that they just always assumed this was where the character was going, and that when they found out that it's not, they said fuck it and wanted to do the scene they had been imagining anyway, but I don't want to be quite that ungenerous toward them.
 
What gets me is that
it's apparent that the Stannis/Shireen scene was just there to make us feel extra bad when she gets burned. Not to mention the impetus being that 20 men single handedly destroyed all the supplies of the alleged best commander in Westeros.

Save us GRRM.

Just to feel bad? Could it not also be to display the level of resolve and pragmatism Stannis has about the throne? Could it be that he has a meltdown later even if he doesn't, he probably views it as his own emotions verses the law of the realm. And he went with what he always does, the law. I think it was supposed to give us an awareness of the kind of things Stannis is willing to do based on the fate he believes in.
 

Joni

Member
40 dogs you mean
He needs those to handle that army of wights and white walkers.

I find it weird how they thought he was good, I mean, this is a man who used a shadow demon to kill his own brother. And I love Stannis, but not because I thought he was good.
He seems 'Lawful Good' on the scale of Good-Neutral-Bad. He is justice/law above all, even if it means using shadow demons to kill the usurper. He feels Renly is breaking the law, so no matter what, Renly has to die.
 

Zolo

Member
It's either a major deviation or a major spoiler. If it's the former, then I think GRRM's best move would be to just rerelease the Theon I preview with the line about putting his daughter in her throne. That would get the point across without calling D&D out directly, similar to the way he's just talked about missing Jeyne to quietly criticize their Sansa plot.

If it's the latter, which I really don't think it is, then we'll be in a really awkward situation. D&D will take a ton of flak for something that was ultimately D&D's story choice, unless he's willing to release material showing they're being faithful on this beat.

That said, my impression, knowing where the story stands in the books at this moment, and what D&D's tendencies are as storyteller, is that Mel and Selyse will sacrifice Shireen at Castle Black without Stannis' knowledge or consent, as a response to the Pink Letter, and D&D just feel it's more ~dramatic~ if he makes that decision himself. I almost suspect that they just always assumed this was where the character was going, and that when they found out that it's not, they said fuck it and wanted to do the scene they had been imagining anyway, but I don't want to be quite that ungenerous toward them.

I'd be that ungenerous. Their characterization of Stannis past season 2 has been abysmal, and their commentary about him in interviews and episodes has always made me wonder if they have their own interpretation different of him from the book. Even this season had some crap like him burning Mance for not bending the knee rather than for being a traitor to the Night's Watch. He mostly just got more praised this season for actually having some positive light.....part of which we can see why now in this episode.
 

_Ryo_

Member
I'm not upset that
Shireen is burned for sacrifice.
I'm upset at how it happens.
It doesn't make any sense.
For one, I just can't believe that we don't get to see exactly how Ramsey so badly damaged Stannis. I want know how it comes to be that only 21 people total can totally wreck what appears to be a small army so easily. This is poor writing. It's the ironborn, shirtless Ramsey and his stupid fucking dogs situation all over again. It's utterly implausible.

And then the actual burning of his daughter is fucked too. In the show Sylese has not once shown any affection for Shireen at all. Stannis has. Multiple times even. Sylese has commented several times how she is sorry that she couldn't give Stannis a son. She thinks that Shireen is a vile mistake and a curse from God. I haven't seen the episode yet but from the descriptions it's appears that she is actually trying to save her and is hysterical because her baby girl is burning. No. She doesn't care. The show has already established this. This entire thing breaks character for both Sylese and Stannis!

Now, the fact that Stannis burns Shireen is indisputable but I really REALLY hope that people are just misreading Sylese's reaction. Maybe instead of agony she is crying in amazement at the red gods power. And she is hysterical in her belief that it is the correct path to take, similarly to how some people react when they feel the spirit of the lord enter their body. So maybe it's a display of fanaticism and enlightenment and rejoicefulness via religious tribulation instead of Sylese wanting to save Shireen.

Also in the books no way Stannis is gonna sacrifice her. She'll be sacrificed, yes but the choice won't be his and he is going to be livid when he finds out. He can't do it anyway, he's nowhere near the wall.
 
Just to feel bad? Could it not also be to display the level of resolve and pragmatism Stannis has about the throne? Could it be that he has a meltdown later even if he doesn't, he probably views it as his own emotions verses the law of the realm. And he went with what he always does, the law. I think it was supposed to give us an awareness of the kind of things Stannis is willing to do based on the fate he believes in.

Yeah, because burning innocent kids is definitely following the laws of the land to the letter.
 
It's either a major deviation or a major spoiler. If it's the former, then I think GRRM's best move would be to just rerelease the Theon I preview with the line about putting his daughter in her throne. That would get the point across without calling D&D out directly, similar to the way he's just talked about missing Jeyne to quietly criticize their Sansa plot.

If it's the latter, which I really don't think it is, then we'll be in a really awkward situation. D&D will take a ton of flak for something that was ultimately GRRM's story choice, unless he's willing to release material showing they're being faithful on this beat.

That said, my impression, knowing where the story stands in the books at this moment, and what D&D's tendencies are as storyteller, is that Mel and Selyse will sacrifice Shireen at Castle Black without Stannis' knowledge or consent, as a response to the Pink Letter, and D&D just feel it's more ~dramatic~ if he makes that decision himself. I almost suspect that they just always assumed this was where the character was going, and that when they found out that it's not, they said fuck it and wanted to do the scene they had been imagining anyway, but I don't want to be quite that ungenerous toward them.

Whichever it is I hope there is some clarification at least. I hope they don't keep it ambiguous.
 

Judderman

drawer by drawer
It is clear GRRM has become Jeyne Poole held captive by Ramsay (D&D) and is being forced to sleep with the their hounds (their adaption). Releasing The Winds of Winter will be his own personal jumping from the castle walls.

So Reek in this scenario is his DOS machine?
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
I find it weird how they thought he was good, I mean, this is a man who used a shadow demon to kill his own brother.

And I love Stannis, but not because I thought he was good.

I don't think anyone loves Stannis because he is "good," we love from a book perspective because he is honest, is all about justice, and appears to have very little self ambition doing what he does out of a sense of duty not pure selfish motivations.
It's not like we're shocked he's burning someone, he fucking burnt his previous Hand (a Florent), it's that his burning Shireen comes out of nowhere and is not indicative of his character, it's a cheap shock. It's hard to imagine a man so devoted to family, duty, and justice would willingly sacrifice his daughter to clear up some weather. This is a man who in the books, despite the EXTREMELY harsh conditions of the weather refuses to burn a single unbeliever in his army. Who tells one of his knights that if he dies in battle to continue fighting to put Shireen on the throne. Who one of the reasons he actually burnt his previous Hand was because he tried to negotiate having Shireen married off to one of the incest bred, bastard born Lannisters. And, if we are still going by the books a man who agonized over burning Edric Storm and who we never learn what he would have decided. Davos takes him away before Stannis can even make the decision. But, now in the show this experienced battle commander is willing to burn his very own daughter to clear up some weather and achieve victory. That is why people are upset. It's inconsistent not because Stannis was some paragon of goodness.
 
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