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[Madness]

If you read her tweets, it's clear she's upset by the fact that:

D&D casually confirmed in the Inside the Episode that Shireen's burning is something that GRRM told them happens in one of the upcoming books. Unlike a lot of the other events that haven't happened in the books (yet), like Barristan's death, they've kept quiet about whether they were things GRRM told them happen in later books or just stuff they came up with on their own. "The show is the show and the books are the books" has been the go-to line whenever a deviation happens.

Spoiling the books through the show's narrative is an inevitability - spoiling the books via an interview is something else entirely. It really was completely unprofessional on D&D's part to reveal that information publicly.

Sort of like Sean Bean flat out basically saying Jon wasn't his son? I don't get why the showrunners, who are going to take tons of unnecessary flak for the change, can't say, it's what will happen in the books. You could say it's unprofessional, but someone wishing death/misfortune on them because of it is ridiculous. Pretty sure it's an inevitability that the actors and writers and showrunners will spoil book events now. Imagine next season when almost everything will be brand new, maybe some stuff happens and the actors go, it's what GRRM will have wanted etc.

 

[Blastoise]

A sweet little bit of trivia regarding Liam Cunningham and Kerry Ingram.

Unbeknownst to each other, they had both bought gifts. On their last day together, Liam gave her a silver stag, and she gave him a pillow with a stag sewn onto it.

Source.

Thats way too adorable. Now I feel even worse.

Onion Knight for Westeros!

 

[Mxrz]

If you read her tweets, it's clear she's upset by the fact that:

Ah. Well I get the anger then. But the wishing misfortune stuff is a bit much.

The show is going to spoil the books. Its just unrealistic to think otherwise. The show will likely be done for years before the last book rolls around. It will be interesting to see how many of the fans the show has created will stick around.

I did not enjoy the last two books much at all. So much so, I sort of regretted reading them afterwards and spoiling myself for the show. I'd love for Winds of Winter to turn out to be another book 1/2, or even 3. But I just don't think it'll happen at this point. After so many years, a writer can just lose focus on a single work. I think its a large reason why Dunk and Egg (hbo series, pls?) was so much more enjoyable.

 

[Moff]

Spoiling the books through the show's narrative is an inevitability - spoiling the books via an interview is something else entirely. It really was completely unprofessional on D&D's part to reveal that information publicly.

I don't agree, obviously they couldn't know the reactions because they recorded that before the airing, but they obviously knew how people would react and it's the number 1 questtion people have by far, was this GRRM or D&D, so they answered it in advance, I don't think it's unprofessional, they just know their watchers.
right know I just hope that GRRM confirms that stannis will burn her in the books, and all the D&D haters will realize that they are and always have been absolutely incapable of judging anyones writing.

worst book change this episode was that stannis didn't know about the dance of dragons, what the hell were they thinking?

teared up during daznak's pit, drogon should have been 5 times as big but there is no way I can't love that episode with that dragon action.

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

Didn't GRRM say that WoW was supposed to elaborate what Osha and Rickon have been up to?

Yes but we're talking about the show series. D&D can make it up as they go along and I really doubt D&D would be willing to bring back Osha and Rickon for now on season 6. Unless the show kills Sansa

 

[Madness]

Maybe Davos when he returns, is sent away by Stannis to White Harbor to do the Rickon/Manderly storyline? It's obvious Davos will no longer want to be around Stannis and Stannis won't want him judging him.

Shireens screams were brutal though. The look on her pretty little face when she finally understands what's about to happen was terrible.

 

[Pyramid head]

People's reactions to Shireen's death was so sweet. Can't wait for their reaction when the nights watch betrays Jon Snow and reenact Julius Caesar's final moment. Another incoming Red Wedding reaction?

I can't really think of a way the show could have more clearly telegraphed Jon's death and subsequent resurrection than they have. Surely 95% of show watchers completely expect it, unlile the red wedding.

 

[MadraptorMan]

I can't really think of a way the show could have more clearly telegraphed Jon's death and subsequent resurrection than they have. Surely 95% of show watchers completely expect it, unlile the red wedding.

What resurrection?

 

[Basileus777]

I can't really think of a way the show could have more clearly telegraphed Jon's death and subsequent resurrection than they have. Surely 95% of show watchers completely expect it, unlile the red wedding.

They've telegraphed the mutiny, but his resurrection? They haven't set that up at all.

 

[Ikael]

Up until this episode I have given the showrunners the benefit of the doubt. They made some awful decisions, they made some right calls and overall, a decent job at adaptation, but after this episode it has become pretty clear that theirs is a very narrow and superficial interpretation of the overaching plot, theme and characters of Martin's world.

- Deus ex Ramsey. No, this is not how you build a good villian. Show runners forget yet again that characters are suppoused to be living, breathing persons, not mindless plot devices with an easy to cathegorize personalities ("good", "bad", "baddass assassin who wants revenge", etc)

- Bipolar Stannis. People claiming that his actions are wholly coherent are just the ones that pidgeonholed him into the "evil" simplistic cathegory the first time they saw him burning people. Just like the showrunners did *sigh* not to mention that the "twist effect" only works within the context of character and his or her evolution arc. I am also looking at you, bipolar Selysse shuddenly giving a shit for her daughter, and bipolar Daenerys shuddenly marrying Hidzar. The show is filled to the brim with these type of ridiculous "character twists".

- And most importantly, every single plot seems to be trending towards the pointless cliffhanger gallore of the books. I would love to be proven wrong on this, but I am no optimist. There's barely enough time to properly tie any of these, not to mention the Jon's resucitation process.

In short: I would love to kickstart another re-tell of season 5 in animated form, just to show them how it is done. Aurgh.

 

[Rentahamster]

So...

Stannis burns his daughter in the book.

In a tough battle, he ends up taking control of Winterfell and ends up taking control of the north.

After he feels like he has gotten control, he goes back to his wife who stabs him in the heart.

Stannis dies.

Agamemnon story retold.

...stabs him in the heart with a burning hot sword and it is tempered in his blood, becoming the real Lightbringer. Selyse is Azor Ahai.

 

[Last Hearth]

Sort of like Sean Bean flat out basically saying Jon wasn't his son? I don't get why the showrunners, who are going to take tons of unnecessary flak for the change, can't say, it's what will happen in the books. You could say it's unprofessional, but someone wishing death/misfortune on them because of it is ridiculous. Pretty sure it's an inevitability that the actors and writers and showrunners will spoil book events now. Imagine next season when almost everything will be brand new, maybe some stuff happens and the actors go, it's what GRRM will have wanted etc.

Sean Bean was answering an off the cuff question. This was an officially produced video attachment to the show. What Sean Bean did is a spur of the moment thing. This is something that they did deliberately months ago and could have changed it at any time since then until the actual airing. It's the difference between an intentional and accidental act

 

[Madness]

I can't really think of a way the show could have more clearly telegraphed Jon's death and subsequent resurrection than they have. Surely 95% of show watchers completely expect it, unlile the red wedding.

Not sure about the resurrection but they've basically beaten us over the head with the fact the mutiny is coming and Olly will be the one to stab Jon. I have a suspicion that while the rest of the Nights Watch wants to kill him, only Olly will be the one to stab alone in the Lord Commanders quarters yelling for the watch. I hope Ghost will kill Olly then as Jon fades to possible death and the season ends just to piss off fans even more.

All my show watcher only friends are expecting Olly to betray Jon, it's been foreshadowed that much.

 

[Moff]

in the spirit of episode 9, olly will defend jon and be stabbed first by thorne

 

[beril]

Spoiler

There is a difference between Shireen burning which all book readers expected to happen vs. Stannis wanting her to burn. For that to happen Stannis has to go back to wall. Maybe it is happening but that just seems ass backwards and then GRRM has lost his marbles.

He'll probably return to the wall after being defeated at winterfell and burns her in a last desperate attempt. Melisandre burning her isn't very interesting; she's just a crazy person who wants to burn everyone, and Shireen isn't a very big character so it wouldn't really have much impact. Stannis burning his own daughter really show how crazy he's become. You may have opinions on how well it was handled in the show, and again when/if it's happening in the books, but as a plot point it's way more interesting than some of the alternatives people have speculated here.

 

[Basileus777]

Sean Bean was answering an off the cuff question. This was an officially produced video attachment to the show. What Sean Bean did is a spur of the moment thing. This is something that they did deliberately months ago and could have changed it at any time since then until the actual airing. It's the difference between an intentional and accidental act

Eh, their comment wasn't specific enough to be problematic. A vague comment that they were surprised when they heard about this from GRRM is not something worthy of rage. If you're that paranoid about spoilers, stop watching the show and its extras. Expecting them to change their post episode commentary for the extreme minority of book readers who watch the show but expect the books not to be spoiled is a bit much.

 

[TheSadRanger]

Up until this episode I have given the showrunners the benefit of the doubt. They made some awful decisions, they made some right calls and overall, a decent job at adaptation, but after this episode it has become pretty clear that theirs is a very narrow and superficial interpretation of the overaching plot, theme and characters of Martin's world.

- Deus ex Ramsey. No, this is not how you build a good villian. Show runners forget yet again that characters are suppoused to be living, breathing persons, not mindless plot devices with an easy to cathegorize personalities ("good", "bad", "baddass assassin who wants revenge", etc)

- Bipolar Stannis. People claiming that his actions are wholly coherent are just the ones that pidgeonholed him into the "evil" simplistic cathegory the first time they saw him burning people. Just like the showrunners did *sigh* not to mention that the "twist effect" only works within the context of character and his or her evolution arc. I am also looking at you, bipolar Selysse shuddenly giving a shit for her daughter, and bipolar Daenerys shuddenly marrying Hidzar. The show is filled to the brim with these type of ridiculous "character twists".

- And most importantly, every single plot seems to be trending towards the pointless cliffhanger gallore of the books. I would love to be proven wrong on this, but I am no optimist. There's barely enough time to properly tie any of these, not to mention the Jon's resucitation process.

In short: I would love to kickstart another re-tell of season 5 in animated form, just to show them how it is done. Aurgh.

We just gotta wait a few years until AMC adapts the Stormlight Archives

 

[NeoGiff]

Did anyone else notice that they used the sound clip of Daario's "Protect your queen!" line twice?

It's not even that he just said it twice, IT'S THE EXACT SAME RECORDING REUSED. The first is the obvious one, and happens just after Jorah throws the spear and the Harpies are revealed. The second is when they do an about turn after Jorah tries to escort them out a side exit.

Really clumsy and noticeable.

 

[lazyproblems]

I think either way it would have to be Mel. Either she burns her herself at Castle Black, or she somehow takes Shireen and delivers her through the snow to Stannis, just so he can do it personally. I really think the first is more likely.

People have been comparing it to Agamemnon/Clytemnestra, but I always saw it in the books as a reverse of that situation. Rather than a father sacrificing a daughter for good fortune in battle, only to be murderered by his wife in revenge, we have a wife who sacrifices her daughter while her husband is away at battle, hoping it will help him, and the husband executing her on his return. That is what I expect the book plot to be until I see otherwise.

This seems likely. I could see Mel and Selyse burning Shireen in the hopes of helping Stannis in his upcoming pivotal battle. I think someone posted this here or on reddit earlier in the season, but if they believe the red letter, they could be trying to resurrect him only for Jon to get revived instead. However it happens, the story would proceed like you described in your second paragraph.

Whatever the case, sad that we had to lose Shireen this way.

 

[Mxrz]

Stannis has been burning people for a while now. The fanbase around him just sort of glossed over all that stuff in season 2.

Random speculation.

House Baratheon has no real heirs left. Joffery killed all the bastards, except for Gendry (Uh and Maya if she exists). The only two people that know about him are Davos, and Littlefinger, that originally pointed Ned to him. Could that be the "the handsome young man that Littlefinger spoke up to Olenna?

It being Lancel remains a bit clunky. Wouldn't he have already confessed everything? Can't see Olenna getting much out of that. But then Gendry wouldn't be a whole lot of use either, and is hardly relevant in the books

Its hard to guess what's an actual mystery and whats just an abandoned story element at this point.

 

[Last Hearth]

Eh, their comment wasn't specific enough to be problematic. A vague comment that they were surprised when they heard about this from GRRM is not something worthy of rage. If you're that paranoid about spoilers, stop watching the show and its extras. Expecting them to change their post episode commentary for the extreme minority of book readers who watch the show but expect the books not to be spoiled is a bit much.

I'm not that sensitive about spoilers, but it's unprofessional of them. I already expect Shireen to get burned in the books, but they didn't need to confirm it for people who do care. They did it because they wanted to use GRRM as their cover.

 

[Pyramid head]

They've telegraphed the mutiny, but his resurrection? They haven't set that up at all.

Melisandre mysteriously dropping in on the Brotherhood:

"What do you mean we can bring people back from the dead? Hmmmmmmm, interesting... I must remember this, it may come in handy at some point in the future..."

I'm paraphrasing, but it'll probably be re-shown on the 'previously on'bit.

Olly to Sam:

"I'm giving serious consideration to killing Jon."

Sam to Olly: "Don't worry, Jon always comes back!" *nudge wink*

 

[Moff]

I'm not that sensitive about spoilers, but it's unprofessional of them. I already expect Shireen to get burned in the books, but they didn't need to confirm it for people who do care. They did it because they wanted to use GRRM as their cover.

well if people genuinely wish all kinds fo misfortune on them who can blame them. talking about unprofessional, what do you think about people talking like that when they are professionaly tied to the same franchise?

I don't think it matters at all, by this time next year we will have been spoiled a whole unreleased book, and that has 0 to do with professionality. and it will be far worse next season. in every episode people will want to know if this or that twist was GRRM or D&D and if people keep asking D&D will keep answering.

 

[Enosh]

Stannis has been burning people for a while now. The fanbase around him just sort of glossed over all that stuff in season 2.

and the only person who wouldn't have deserved it is Roberts bastard whose name I forgot, the book version I mean and even then he had to be convinced by the deaths of 3 kings

as for what D&D said, well I'll believe it when i see it, call it denial but I'm just not buying it as things stand now in the books, something major has to happen beyond "20 guys burned our shit"

 

[Basileus777]

Melisandre mysteriously dropping in on the Brotherhood:

"What do you mean we can bring people back from the dead? Hmmmmmmm, interesting... I must remember this, it may come in handy at some point in the future..."

I'm paraphrasing, but it'll probably be re-shown on the 'previously on'bit.

Olly to Sam:

"I'm giving serious consideration to killing Jon."

Sam to Olly: "Don't worry, Jon always comes back!" *nudge wink*

I was thinking of the warg bits which have been skipped over entirely. The problem here is that Melisandre isn't at the Wall, so is she going to teleport there too?

 

[NeoGiff]

Why did Jon and co. come to the Wall from the northern side? Why not sail around Eastwatch like they did in the first place?

Surely after the shit they just experienced, the last thing they'd want to do is land on the same side of a fucking 700 ft high wall as the horrors they just escaped, when they're even entertaining the idea that they mightn't even be let back through!

Edit: I know the reason is so that we could have that will he/won't he scene with Thorne. But that's not a reason.

 

[Basileus777]

Why did Jon and co. come to the Wall from the northern side? Why not sail around Eastwatch like they did in the first place?

Surely after the shit they just experienced, the last thing they'd want to do is land on the same side of a fucking 700 ft high wall as the horrors they just escaped, when they're even entertaining the idea that they mightn't even be let back through!

You expect geographic continuity in Game of Thrones? Hah.

 

[Pyramid head]

I was thinking of the warg bits which have been skipped over entirely. The problem here is that Melisandre isn't at the Wall, so is she going to teleport there too?

I'm guessing it might go down like people have speculated with her intended target being Stannis with her wording being something to the effect of "bring back Azor Ahai". I think the show dropped hints that Stannis isn't the one. Did they do the scene where Aemon tells Jon 'the sword is wrong'? I can't remember.

 

[TheSadRanger]

Melisandre mysteriously dropping in on the Brotherhood:

"What do you mean we can bring people back from the dead? Hmmmmmmm, interesting... I must remember this, it may come in handy at some point in the future..."

I'm paraphrasing, but it'll probably be re-shown on the 'previously on'bit.

Olly to Sam:

"I'm giving serious consideration to killing Jon."

Sam to Olly: "Don't worry, Jon always comes back!" *nudge wink*

If I remember correctly in TDWD wasn't Mel aware of Thoros resurrection on Beric but oblivious as to how he did it?

 

[Gnome]

I don't remember Mel ever giving the inclination that she knew Beric existed.

 

[Pyramid head]

If I remember correctly in TDWD wasn't Mel aware of Thoros resurrection on Beric but oblivious as to how he did it?

I don't recall, but the books seem to be hinting at resurrection via warging so maybe there's more time to work it out. The doesn't look like it's going down that route.

 

[hendersonhank]

I was delighted watching the Inside the Episode and seeing them say "when George told us Stannis burns his daughter..." and imagining the shock on the face of all the butthurt here whom I *knew* were bitching about what shit writers D&D were for having Stannis do something "so out of character".

Then reading back through this thread this morning and seeing that endless string..."terrible"..."they don't understand characters"..."shit writing"..."Stannis would never do that, this is terrible fanfic". And then the painful realization when everyone got to the Inside the Episode.

Delicious!

 

[Shuggananas]

I was delighted watching the Inside the Episode and seeing them say "when George told us Stannis burns his daughter..." and imagining the shock on the face of all the butthurt here whom I *knew* were bitching about what shit writers D&D were for having Stannis do something "so out of character".

Then reading back through this thread this morning and seeing that endless string..."terrible"..."they don't understand characters"..."shit writing"..."Stannis would never do that, this is terrible fanfic". And then the painful realization when everyone got to the Inside the Episode.

Delicious!

stannis magically teleports to the wall just to burn shireen then gets back to winterfell for his siege
MAKES SENSE

 

[MadraptorMan]

I'm guessing it might go down like people have speculated with her intended target being Stannis with her wording being something to the effect of "bring back Azor Ahai". I think the show dropped hints that Stannis isn't the one. Did they do the scene where Aemon tells Jon 'the sword is wrong'? I can't remember.

Kept waiting for that scene, but it never happened. Does Stannis even have a (fake) light bringer in the show?

 

[munchie64]

Thank you for providing some comedy gold after that depressing episode thread!

 

[hendersonhank]

wtf was the point of dorne

That's something I asked after reading the books as well.

 

[carlsojo]

That's something I asked after reading the books as well.

I kind of got the impression that they were setting up to ally with Daenerys and or Aegon.

 

[hendersonhank]

stannis magically teleports to the wall just to burn shireen then gets back to winterfell for his siege
MAKES SENSE

Who knows or cares what the exact circumstances will be? The point is when there is an obstacle in the way of his single-minded path to the throne, he'll burn anyone to remove it, because he's an obsessed shithead. That IS his character.

 

[matrix-cat]

We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming to bring you two Sandsnakes, Boobs McGee and the other one (no, the other other one), playing slapsies for no reason.

 

[Real Hero]

That's something I asked after reading the books as well.

C'mon, the point of Dorne is clear in the books

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

Spoiler

There is a difference between Shireen burning which all book readers expected to happen vs. Stannis wanting her to burn. For that to happen Stannis has to go back to wall. Maybe it is happening but that just seems ass backwards and then GRRM has lost his marbles.

Why can't this happen over raven or messenger? That's been on my mind since I woke up this morning.

 

[Real Hero]

He might burn her in a totally different circumstance, he's already in worse shape for the battle in the books and burning his daughter would not endear himself to his northern clansmen (who he doesn't have in the show). Although I find it completely unbelievable that some of his show army don't mutiny and try to kill him.

 

[Jigorath]

Why can't this happen over raven or messenger? That's been on my mind since I woke up this morning.

"Hey Mel, don't forget. We need to burn my daughter for dat King's blood."

-Stan. Proud father.

 

[_Ryo_]

So, if Stannis does reach Sansa but has to retreat because immortal, invincible Ramsey and a very small team are after him and he is about to face imminent death and defeat why wouldn't he sacrifice her instead so that he will surely come out victorious. As far as be knows Sansa is the last living true Stark so her Queens blood has gotta be very powerful he'd imagine.

 

[Moff]

I was delighted watching the Inside the Episode and seeing them say "when George told us Stannis burns his daughter..." and imagining the shock on the face of all the butthurt here whom I *knew* were bitching about what shit writers D&D were for having Stannis do something "so out of character".

Then reading back through this thread this morning and seeing that endless string..."terrible"..."they don't understand characters"..."shit writing"..."Stannis would never do that, this is terrible fanfic". And then the painful realization when everyone got to the Inside the Episode.

Delicious!

It doesn't surprise me though, and as I pointed out yesterday, book readers were simply annoyed and/or unprepared that they experienced a real twist in the show first. lets just say that GRRM would only have releasded ACOK and they started the show back then and we would have seen the red wedding in the show first, people would have reacted the exact same way they reacted to shireen.

it simply is not bad writing.

first of all, I never thought and still do not think book and show stannis are that different.
stannis was always a competent but unlikeable man, this only changed at the end of ASOS when he changed his mind and decided to sace the realm to gain the throne.
this was exactly the same in the show, people didn't like stannis until the end of season 4.
but apparently, many readers were incapable of comprehending that timeline. they read AFFC/ADWD and liked stannis, but somehow thought season 2 and 3 stannis was portrayed wrong because of "shit writing" because he was not badass, yet.
he was not likeable in the books at that point either and was not supposed to be.

now we are at a point where GRRM changes stannis again, we only see it in the show first. of course, again, its "shit writing".
but I honestly do not agree, I think it's interesting writing to confront a man like stannis with such a decision: utter defeat and death or sacrifice his daughter
I am absolutely certain that both book and show stannis would choose to sacrifice her if they were in the very same situation. 100%

of course there is still a chance that the sitation is different, melisandre and shireen are at the wall in the books after all. so if D&D actually changed that decision from melisandre/seylse to stannis, we can definitely blame them for that. but that doesnt change that I think book and show stannis are the same and would make the same decision if they both arrived at the same situation. so I am eager to hear from GRRM some details about what happens in the books, I hope he gives in, as he surely drowns in mails by now.

but I think it happens in the books as well so I'll just summarize again:
1. melisandre clearing a snowstorm is much too subtle for D&D, that has got to come from GRRM. shireen will burn in the books.
2. melisandre and seylse doing it behind stannis' back would be ultra cheap and bad writing. this is a very tough decision and it is simply the most interesting way to have stannis confronted with it.

 

[Kuraudo]

Stannis was a really shitty person in ACoK. People only liked him after he stood up to Mel to go to the Wall and for his part in the battle there. But as great as he was then, it only makes him a more balanced character and doesn't preclude him being a single-minded shitheel.

I'm not convinced it will go down the same way in the books, but burning his daughter "for the good of the realm" is not something I'd put past him.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I was delighted watching the Inside the Episode and seeing them say "when George told us Stannis burns his daughter..." and imagining the shock on the face of all the butthurt here whom I *knew* were bitching about what shit writers D&D were for having Stannis do something "so out of character".

Then reading back through this thread this morning and seeing that endless string..."terrible"..."they don't understand characters"..."shit writing"..."Stannis would never do that, this is terrible fanfic". And then the painful realization when everyone got to the Inside the Episode.

Delicious!

They never say Stannis burns his daughter, just that she burns.

 

[Zolo]

It's that time again:

Honestly, even if something similar happens in the books, I expect it to be much better handled than Ramsay and his 20 dudes taking out all the supplies of Stannis's entire army.

 

[Real Hero]

It's that time again:



Honestly, even if something similar happens in the books, I expect it to be much better handled than Ramsay and his 20 dudes taking out all the supplies of Stannis's entire army.

I don't think anyone will deny that is clearly a 100% show invention. It involves ramsey doing something well. He's a fat weirdo in the books

 

[Moff]

the 20 dudes thing was clearly a replacement for the snowstorm battle due to budget reasons. it's not necessarily a bad call but the way it was shown with the camp lightng up was very poorly done. they could at least have shown some of stannis' pissed of and frozen mercenaries being killed by those 20 dudes. it would have made much more sense.