Wait, what book is this....
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Wait, what book is this....
Pegasus Actual
Gold Member
The spoiler complaint makes no sense to me. Really, there are people out there who are watching the conclusion of the series in HBO form, while thinking "well, some things are going to be different and I don't necessarily know which so really it's like I'm not spoiling myself at all"? What is this shit, Schroedinger's Spoiler?
She might be burnt as a sacrifice to resurrect Jon or for what ever reason Mel comes up with and probably by the approval of her crazy mother. smh at people thinking her getting burned in the book somehow excuse the poor writing of the show.
Last Hearth
Member
Whoever does these need to do one for Doran Martel.
I actually found the entire Dorne plot to be more insulting to a viewer's intelligence than the Stannis stuff.
Red Arremer
Member
I think my biggest issue with the burning of Shireen is not the fact that she got burned (as horrible as it was T_T), but that Stannis' characterization is completely different now. The show depicts him now as a desperate looney with no morals. Even though beneath his mask of justice and duty, he's as much of a pragmatic leader as anyone, and even though he burnt some of his wife's family members (mostly in order to appease to his wife and her men, in the books you can see he's never been a true follower of R'hllor) - he never ever came off as a nutter like that in the books.
The strength of Stannis as a character is that he manages to keep the moral high ground and knows where the true enemy lies (the Others), and how complex his handling of his really dire situation in the fight for the Iron Throne is.
In the show he's been reduced to an immoral nutjob. And I'm really disappointed - I've come to really like Stannis as a book character, and despite inconsistencies enjoyed his depiction in the show as well, but this... this is just awful. It's really poor writing. Even IF Stannis were to burn Shireen in the books (which I sincerely doubt), I'm sure it'll be for a far FAR better reason than Darth Ramsay and his Deus Ex Machinae.
The strength of Stannis as a character is that he manages to keep the moral high ground and knows where the true enemy lies (the Others), and how complex his handling of his really dire situation in the fight for the Iron Throne is.
In the show he's been reduced to an immoral nutjob. And I'm really disappointed - I've come to really like Stannis as a book character, and despite inconsistencies enjoyed his depiction in the show as well, but this... this is just awful. It's really poor writing. Even IF Stannis were to burn Shireen in the books (which I sincerely doubt), I'm sure it'll be for a far FAR better reason than Darth Ramsay and his Deus Ex Machinae.
This is pretty much it for me. It's the difference between a rape happening in the show and Jaime being the rapist.
Atraveller
Banned
This.
Maybe, just maybe, book Stannis would do the same in show Stannis's situation, but what was shown was rushed as hell. And why put him in this situation? To show that he's flawed? Everyone knows that already. So why?
Red Arremer
Member
On the plus side, Mace Tyrell was my hero this episode.
#TeamMaceTyrell
#TeamMaceTyrell
Moff
Member
stannis' army will be crippled after the battle in the snowstorm, leaving him in the the very same situation, as davos put it "you can't move forward and you can't go back". so he would burn her (IF he does it) for the exact same reason. it doens't really matter if it was a battle or ramsays attack that put him in that position. the important part for his character is that it's a certain death vs. sacrifice decision for him.
Senator Soufflé
Member
I feel like the show is trying too hard to be controversial and character development and plot is suffering for that.
bengraven
Member
I think now is a good time for that re-read. Because remember how you told your friends that these books are dark as fuck and no one is safe? That's still true. I think due to the show and the long wait for actual character deaths that will happen in the last two books that people are starting to feel like everyone is safe and nothing dangerous is going to happen again.
I mean, imagine if the books started with the Rebellion first? The Mountain killed a child, then smashed a baby's head and then raped the mother with the brains of that child still on his hands, then killed his rape victim. Imagine if THAT was on the show - but imagine if it was further into a season where you become comfortable with these characters. "Oh I love Elia, mother of the year...".
I'm just saying that it's been said time and again not to get comfortable and I think we have. That's all.
Episode was a 7 for me - mostly well done, but yeah, I never felt the plight of Stannis's guys and the CGI dragon with Dany on it looked terrible. Plus, the weird bipolarism of Dorne which is obviously Ellaria playing nice so she can try and kill Jaime next episode.
I mean, imagine if the books started with the Rebellion first? The Mountain killed a child, then smashed a baby's head and then raped the mother with the brains of that child still on his hands, then killed his rape victim. Imagine if THAT was on the show - but imagine if it was further into a season where you become comfortable with these characters. "Oh I love Elia, mother of the year...".
I'm just saying that it's been said time and again not to get comfortable and I think we have. That's all.
Episode was a 7 for me - mostly well done, but yeah, I never felt the plight of Stannis's guys and the CGI dragon with Dany on it looked terrible. Plus, the weird bipolarism of Dorne which is obviously Ellaria playing nice so she can try and kill Jaime next episode.
Atraveller
Banned
Who is also a piece of shit.
bengraven
Member
And actually threatened his child with murder instead of hugged him and let others do it.
I think we all knew eventually Stannis would succumb. That was the point of her being there in the first place.
Then again, I was hoping for a final "I reject you and your god" moment at some point and he ends up dying for himself, not her false religion.
I think you might be right. He's going to have to be and it will be fun to watch him bouncing off Mace Flutelungs Tyrell over the defense of Oldtown.
I think we all knew eventually Stannis would succumb. That was the point of her being there in the first place.
Then again, I was hoping for a final "I reject you and your god" moment at some point and he ends up dying for himself, not her false religion.
I think you might be right. He's going to have to be and it will be fun to watch him bouncing off Mace Flutelungs Tyrell over the defense of Oldtown.
also has potential for killing his own child. He really is the next Stannis
I've figured it out!
Davos will kill Stannis in a grief-ridden fury, and chop the fingers off his cold, dead body.
He will then sew them into his own stumps to remind himself of how he came from nothing, and reduced to nothing the man who betrayed him.
All of a sudden, his hand will burst into flame - a gifted weapon from the One True God for removing the false Azor Ahai.
He will then take to his ship and reave, assuming a new identity as Victarion Greyjoy.
Davos will kill Stannis in a grief-ridden fury, and chop the fingers off his cold, dead body.
He will then sew them into his own stumps to remind himself of how he came from nothing, and reduced to nothing the man who betrayed him.
All of a sudden, his hand will burst into flame - a gifted weapon from the One True God for removing the false Azor Ahai.
He will then take to his ship and reave, assuming a new identity as Victarion Greyjoy.
Basileus777
Member
I wonder if this is really true. No non-guest POV character has been killed other than Ned and Cat. And Ned is basically the old mentor character from other similar stories cleverly disguised. He was fundamentally a supporting character archetype. What was surprising about Ned was not that he died, but that he was given a POV. ASOIAF has always had plenty of characters with plot armor, GRRM just managed to obfuscate it.
bengraven
Member
I would accept Davos as Victarion. *tinfoil hat*
But think of some of our favorite series. The deaths happen early on, then later. The middle section is pretty safe. Gandalf and Boromir die, then no major deaths happen until the battle of the Fields. Harry Potter's last book was death after death after death. The Hunger Games book. People dying making you go "WHY?" And it's not just successful mainstream fantasy/sci-fi. It's a lot of series out there, though I don't want to spoil too many. Deaths in the last two books are going to be astronomical. We weren't supposed to get comfortable and we did.
hendersonhank
Member
Book Stannis goes along with all kinds of insane religious murder and sacrifice to advance himself toward the throne. All of that is entirely against his morality, it's against his religion, his beliefs, and his ethics, but he does it anyway because it seems like it works in one way or another. Show Stannis is the same. Neither one is some "rigid but right" guy, BOTH of them COMPLETELY throw what's "right" out the window when it comes to burning people alive and sacrificing innocent people.
And it's not really because of Ramsay anyway, it's because they aren't getting anywhere toward Winterfell because of the storm. They can't sit there and freeze for weeks on end, and he refuses to go back. The burning of some supplies (not all of them as people keep hyperbolizing) just speeds that up some. Presumably they can expect more guerilla raids from the northerners while they sit there in a blizzard.
Atraveller
Banned
Potential? He's pretty willing, he's like the person who open carries and then expects a robbery or a terrorist attack to happen just so he could fulfill his fantasy.
Basileus777
Member
He's a shitty father who was cruel to Sam, a sympathetic character. I doubt he'll be particularly endearing to the audience. Even if we don't get to see how much of a scumbag he is via his interactions with Brienne.
I hope this happens. Characters do feel too safe right now.
Shuggananas
Banned
Even if Shireen dies it won't be by Stannis' hand in the book.
Season 6 prediction, Tommen gets poisoned and Trystane/Myrcella sit on the Iron Throne.
That's what I was hoping would happen, we know he can't win with her by his side so I was hoping he would at least go out in a good way. Notlikethis.gif.
That's what I was hoping would happen, we know he can't win with her by his side so I was hoping he would at least go out in a good way. Notlikethis.gif.
Thaedolus
Member
"Why would Stannis do this? It makes no sense! Bad writing! D&D are hacks!"
Right. Why would a guy who has seen this red priestess bitch shadowbaby murder his brother to avoid battle, then leech kill Joffrey and Robb (and Balon in the book) have any reason to have faith in her this time? It's not like he lost the battle where he didn't take the red priestess when she wanted to come but Davos convinced him to not take her because it would be her victory. Oops.
Burning Shireen was cruel and insane and horrible to watch/hear, and totally consistent with what you'd think Stannis was set up to do, even in the show universe. The bitching and moaning in here is so off base.
Stannis was never the Mannis, he's a stubborn cunt less fit to rule than Dany
Right. Why would a guy who has seen this red priestess bitch shadowbaby murder his brother to avoid battle, then leech kill Joffrey and Robb (and Balon in the book) have any reason to have faith in her this time? It's not like he lost the battle where he didn't take the red priestess when she wanted to come but Davos convinced him to not take her because it would be her victory. Oops.
Burning Shireen was cruel and insane and horrible to watch/hear, and totally consistent with what you'd think Stannis was set up to do, even in the show universe. The bitching and moaning in here is so off base.
Stannis was never the Mannis, he's a stubborn cunt less fit to rule than Dany
People just have a different interpretation of the character,. It's not bitching and moaning.
Intheflorsh
Banned
So... If Stannis has no heir and Celyse can't have any more kids, what's his long term plan exactly?
Atraveller
Banned
Whatever it was D&D forced him to ruin it.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Maybe the Lord of Light can resurrect one of those jar fetuses.
Margaery Tyrell, like every other king.
Not to mention kill his own cousin to try and get free as well. But hey, now that he's a fan favorite, it's irrelevant what he did in the past seasons.
The same as any childless monarch: to name a successor.
Would the throne have even gone to Celyse anyway? Aside from the progressive ideal that Daenerys will take the throne, Westeros seems pretty patriarchal.
Thaedolus
Member
Which I guess I just don't understand. Why interpret Stannis as anything other than a cunt when he's done nothing but cunty things and acted a damn stubborn fool? Then laying blame on D&D when he's going to do the same thing in the books? Maybe the books will set it up better, but you've got limited screen times and budgets on TV. I don't get it.
Likely the female heir would marry a suitable male, who would become King.
So it kind of would pass to Celyse.
Guy is responsible for the murder of his own brother, didn't care people would die at the blackwater, was ok to burn gendry and cut off the fingers of his most trusted subject.
There is no interpretation, guy is always talking about sacrifice and he's not afraid to do it.
I can't understand how he won the hero/chosen one status in some people's mind.
KingRagnar
Banned
WrenchNinja
Member
Dont even bother with him.
Basileus777
Member
Stannis doesn't have a heir, female or otherwise, with Shireen dead, Selyse has no claim, she doesn't a blood relation to Stannis. The closest thing to an heir would be Robert's surviving bastards.
He also ran away and left Robert to die despite knowing the truth about the incest and the Lannister threat. Stannis is self serving, he just has a nice pitch to cover it.
They didn't even set it up better to my way of thinking, GRRM just belabors every point and bogs it down with droning, boring chapters that don't ever seem to matter in the bigger picture.
The shows pacing, even though it's been criticized this year, is so much better than the books specifically because they don't waste their time adapting the filler that polluted Crows and Dragons.
KingRagnar
Banned
So you prefer that the story be dumber? How sad your life must be.
Detail is not intelligence.
Martin drones on at a slugs pace and his books are shittier for it.
Thaedolus
Member
There's a difference between getting to the fucking point already and being dumber. I enjoy the books and the combination of breadth and depth; I also realize a 15 season show to adapt all that content isn't feasible. If I want the books, I read the books. If I want the show, I watch the show. Obviously each medium is going to have its strengths and weaknesses. Reading about Drogon was a thrill. Seeing a dragon show up on my TV and start burning fools was cool as shit.
KingRagnar
Banned
No, they really aren't, and the show has stripped down characters and made them less nuanced across the board. There's so much phenomenal world building and atmosphere the show has thrown away, so many amazing side-characters like Wyman Manderly, so much dialogue.
I shouldn't even have to go into this. If you've actually read the books and you think the show is an improvement, there's no point discussing it.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
For a book, having detail is fine. It paints a picture. And his books are fine for it. They paint a tapestry that is rife with imagination. I'm sure there is a cliffnotes version of his books if you really need to skip all that detail.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Ok, so Tommen dying in Episode 10 would make a lot more sense now. Doran's plan comes to fruition, Myrcella becomes Queen with Trystaene the King.
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