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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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B

Brakke

Banned
foxtrot3d said:
Ramsay's sneak attack makes absolutely zero sense. We are talking about Stannis, the guy who held Storm's End and beat the Ironborn at SEA. I would think he would have a well disciplined and battle hardened fighting force with him and he would make sure that his camp was well secured, especially the food stores, the one thing keeping them alive in this terrible winter. In fact, the food stores WOULD BE THE MOST GUARDED part of the camp besides the King's tent. If they were already down to butchering horses for meat then I think Stannis would make sure that the food stores were guarded vigorously to ensure they lasted and to ensure none of his own men tried to take more food than was given. And yet, Ramsay and his "20 good men" are able infiltrate the camp, find all the food stores, burn them, and escape without anyone sounding an alarm.
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You're extrapolating from reputation instead of reading the show as is. You "would" think he has a well-disciplined fighting force, but the success of Ramsay's raid illustrates that he *does not* have a well-disciplined fighting force. Stannis himself is surprised to discover this and he angrily orders the men on guard executed. The difference between you and Stannis is that Stannis incorporates this new evidence into his model of the world, where you're inclined to reject it as invalid. If we stop trying to reject Ramsay's raid then we have a much easier time reading the things that actually happen in the episode. He's as frustrated to see the raid hit him so hard so easily as you are. We can read burning Shireen as the desperate move of dude confronted by his hubris. He's embarrassed have set such a vulnerable camp, he's angry to discover his men aren't as vigilant as he requires them to be, he's afraid that maybe he really isn't qualified or skilled to fight in the open against an organized Northern force that expects him. He turns to Mel because he's panicked and desperate, not just because he lost his food and engines but also because he lost a battle.

If we allow Ramsay's raid as written, it expands our understanding of Stannis. Winning battles at sea and holding a castle under siege and sweeping aside a disorganized, surprised wildling horde are all profoundly different challenges than camping people in the snow on march to set siege. Stannis has been successful at the first three, he's clearly less successful at the last. It doesn't matter what you think Stannis would do, it matters what Stannis did. If you think he made a mistake you should incorporate that into your understanding of Stannis. He's much less capable than you thought he was.

PhoenixDark said:
a great military commander
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You also just appealed to reputation instead of evidence.
 
R

RyanDG

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I'd venture to argue there's more support for young commanders in war than "20 good men" destroying a great military commander's camp supplies. Whereas Joan of Arc won multiple battles when she was 15...
QovB07n.png
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Other than religious fanatics, I find it hard to believe that Stannis' army would be primarily built up by loyal, seasoned military veterans of Stannis' previous campaigns and not simple mercenaries at this stage. It seems he lost most of his veterans at Blackwater. As a result, I think its difficult to say that Stannis' previous military prowess is evidence enough that the supplies couldn't be destroyed by a small group, especially in an unfamiliar wilderness under winter conditions.

With all of that said, I do think that the show would've been more effective with the attack had it come after a bit more hardship for the campaign. I 'get' what D&D were going for I think... The idea of an over-extended leader, losing the support of his men, and facing the elements more than an enemy... And when these issues are brought together, it ultimately leads to a breakdown of discipline which results in the supply line ambush being successful (more as a result of the circumstances than the skill of Ramsay's men) I do think that a few more scenes showing just how bad it was getting may have been able to justify the success a little better (and perhaps shown why the Shireen decision was seen as necessary).

As it stands it takes a bit of a leap.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
You know what's weird? I think the show has yet to explain why Doran is in a wheel chair. Maybe during the season finale?

Brakke said:
You're extrapolating from reputation instead of reading the show as is. You "would" think he has a well-disciplined fighting force, but the success of Ramsay's raid illustrates that he *does not* have a well-disciplined fighting force. Stannis himself is surprised to discover this and he angrily orders the men on guard executed. The difference between you and Stannis is that Stannis incorporates this new evidence into his model of the world, where you're inclined to reject it as invalid. If we stop trying to reject Ramsay's raid then we have a much easier time reading the things that actually happen in the episode. He's as frustrated to see the raid hit him so hard so easily as you are. We can read burning Shireen as the desperate move of dude confronted by his hubris. He's embarrassed have set such a vulnerable camp, he's angry to discover his men aren't as vigilant as he requires them to be, he's afraid that maybe he really isn't qualified or skilled to fight in the open against an organized Northern force that expects him. He turns to Mel because he's panicked and desperate, not just because he lost his food and engines but also because he lost a battle.

If we allow Ramsay's raid as written, it expands our understanding of Stannis. Winning battles at sea and holding a castle under siege and sweeping aside a disorganized, surprised wildling horde are all profoundly different challenges than camping people in the snow on march to set siege. Stannis has been successful at the first three, he's clearly less successful at the last. It doesn't matter what you think Stannis would do, it matters what Stannis did. If you think he made a mistake you should incorporate that into your understanding of Stannis. He's much less capable than you thought he was.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't buy any of that. You are reading way too much into that scene than we all know D&D intended. The Ramsay raid was simply a quick way to move Stannis to the burning Shireen plot point. It's the same reason that the iron born was chased off by dogs. The point of the whole scene was for Yara to find Theon and realize that he's too far gone and thus "dead," thus any further attempt at rescue was pointless. The dogs were just a cheap and expedient way for them to exit that scene. It's not meant to portray Ramsay's brilliance as a dog commander or show a secret fear of the ironnborn for greenland dogs.
 
B

biosnake20

Member
They're is plenty of outrageous shit in both the shows and the books. Yeah you can relate Robb to Someone like Joan of Arc but I'm guessing there are plenty of stories of a few men doing extraordinary things in war as well.

I always here shit like "oh wow I can't believe D&D did this they're so dumb" from book purists like Elio and Linda and they straight up ignore the fact that GRRM has done the exact same thing in the books.
 
D

Dysun

Member
foxtrot3d said:
You know what's weird? I think the show has yet to explain why Doran is in a wheel chair. Maybe during the season finale?



Yeah, I don't buy any of that. You are reading way too much into that scene than we all know D&D intended. The Ramsay raid was simply a quick way to move Stannis to the burning Shireen plot point. It's the same reason that the iron born was chased off by dogs. The point of the whole scene was for Yara to find Theon and realize that he's too far gone and thus "dead," thus any further attempt at rescue was pointless. The dogs were just a cheap and expedient way for them to exit that scene. It's not meant to portray Ramsay's brilliance as a dog commander or show a secret fear of the ironnborn for greenland dogs.
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I swear I remember Oberyn telling a Lannister (Tywin?) "It's a wonder you don't have it" regarding Prince Doran having gout
 
B

Brakke

Banned
foxtrot3d said:
Yeah, I don't buy any of that. You are reading way too much into that scene than we all know D&D intended. The Ramsay raid was simply a quick way to move Stannis to the burning Shireen plot point. It's the same reason that the iron born was chased off by dogs. The point of the whole scene was for Yara to find Theon and realize that he's too far gone and thus "dead," thus any further attempt at rescue was pointless. The dogs were just a cheap and expedient way for them to exit that scene. It's not meant to portray Ramsay's brilliance as a dog commander or show a secret fear of the ironnborn for greenland dogs.
Click to expand...

Why should I care at all what D&D "intended"? Author's long since dead, bro.

biosnake20 said:
They're is plenty of outrageous shit in both the shows and the books. Yeah you can relate Robb to Someone like Joan of Arc but I'm guessing there are plenty of stories of a few men doing extraordinary things in war as well.
Click to expand...

Here's one that even happened in snow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage
 
R

RyanDG

Member
I'm surprised that people seem to think that Robb was running a great military campaign or trying to liken him to a great military leader. There always seemed to be a significant amount of luck and chance on his campaign's side, which was primarily brought about because of the Lannister's being unable to commit fully to the campaign against Robb while dealing with all of the other political and military turmoil. Robb has always been more of a creation of circumstances to me than some military wonderkind.
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
Brakke said:
Why should I care at all what D&D "intended"? Author's long since dead, bro.



Here's one that even happened in snow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage
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I think it's less the idea of a small group of 20 leading a wildly successful raid on an unprepared enemy as it is the fact that Ramsay keeps getting away with it. Ramsay has now toplessly defeated the Iron Islands finest soldiers, married a pretty highborn girl who he can abuse nightly without repercussion, sniffed out the nascent Northern conspiracy against him and flayed it's old-lady leader alive, and now run a daring raid against the finest commander in the kingdom that was so successful it crippled an army. Like, none of these things are implausible, it just starts to get tiresome how unstoppable the guy apparently is. Ramsay is just their go-to device to make bad things happen to people. Really, I don't think people would mind it so much if the Yara plot last season hasn't created the meme that Ramsay is the world's greatest fighter.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
foxtrot3d said:
Yeah, I don't buy any of that. You are reading way too much into that scene than we all know D&D intended. The Ramsay raid was simply a quick way to move Stannis to the burning Shireen plot point. It's the same reason that the iron born was chased off by dogs. The point of the whole scene was for Yara to find Theon and realize that he's too far gone and thus "dead," thus any further attempt at rescue was pointless. The dogs were just a cheap and expedient way for them to exit that scene. It's not meant to portray Ramsay's brilliance as a dog commander or show a secret fear of the ironnborn for greenland dogs.
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A scene in the show can't have subtext? We have to examine the show only at the surface level?
 
S

Speevy

Banned
D and D probably think it's poetry that Ramsay's crazy "so successful you'll burn your child" raid is Ramsay's achille's heel and will end up getting him killed by Stannis or his men.

At least I hope that's what they intend.

If not, I'm going to skip Sunday's episode and pretend that's what happens.
 
S

StopMakingSense

Member
foxtrot3d said:
You know what's weird? I think the show has yet to explain why Doran is in a wheel chair. Maybe during the season finale?
Click to expand...

You wouldn't believe the cost to get Alexander Siddig to do his lines standing up.

The dogs were just a cheap and expedient way for them to exit that scene. It's not meant to portray Ramsay's brilliance as a dog commander or show a secret fear of the ironnborn for greenland dogs.
Click to expand...

I kinda don't get the whole thing about the dogs. The scene was shot terribly, yes, but a large enough pack of dogs could rip apart a partly like the one Yara had.
 
P

petethepanda

Member
Olly is clearly a misdirect. Alliser looks around at the men of the Night's Watch and says "Wait, there are twenty men I don't recognize here" right as Ramsay appears behind Jon and runs him through.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
For all of Alliser's "I hate that bastard Jon Snow for no reason and I hope he dies all the time." rhetoric, he's not a bad first ranger.
 
T

TheOctodad

Member
I'm just confused, there are tons of events in life, movies, and books that seem totally implausible but happen. Sometimes they are incredibly lucky or implausible, but we have all read those stories of amazing military feats and tragedies.

It seems like some people's argument is basically because in their head (or maybe the books) it was different, their reality is more superior than the show created reality. I tend to be less opposed to the writers direction and allow their reality to be what it is unless it is patently out of the realm of reality. Something that is lucky or rare, is not the same thing that is unrealistic or impossible. Yet some people seem to be conflating the two.
 
M

Mxrz

Member
schlongdog said:
Is it possible Ramsey is actually just really good at what he does? Based on, well....the things he's done.
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This is something that gets overlooked. People expected or wanted him to him be like Joffery. When he's proving to be more like Jon Snow with morals off, and a much greater drive to impress and/or topple his father.

RyanDG said:
I'm surprised that people seem to think that Robb was running a great military campaign or trying to liken him to a great military leader. There always seemed to be a significant amount of luck and chance on his campaign's side, which was primarily brought about because of the Lannister's being unable to commit fully to the campaign against Robb while dealing with all of the other political and military turmoil. Robb has always been more of a creation of circumstances to me than some military wonderkind.
Click to expand...

Been a while, but the books outright painted Robb as the Curry of Westeros, didn't they? The North seemed to generally be a step above all the other realms in war stuff.

Speevy said:
For all of Alliser's "I hate that bastard Jon Snow for no reason and I hope he dies all the time." rhetoric, he's not a bad first ranger.
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Hopefully he isn't on the stabbing. I like his Sgt Hartman vibe. Stabbing Jon puts him on par with the guys that turned on Mormont.
 
H

harriet the spy

Member
Do people think Aliser will stab Jon in the last episode?
Will it be a group of people like in the book, or just fucking Olly?
God I hope Wun Wun tramples the little cunt.
 
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