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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6 Offseason Thread

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Moff

Moff

Member
Basileus777 said:
The Targaryens getting their crown usurped doesn't invalidate their claims if they can find the means to enforce them.
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but that's exactly what I am saying, when I use my "strange system" of rules. It all depends on how you enforce your claim, which is why Dany needs an army. and jon would as well, the question is who cares about him being a targaryen? no one.
the wildlings and the north? they would follow him either way. I just don't understand how him being a targaryen could be of any importance. there's no way he would want to sit the iron throne anyway.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
I think him being a Stark and a Targaryen is extremely important.

Beyond just being a bastard who became a leader, knowing he was not born of a tavern slut, and that he wasn't unwanted will bolster his confidence so he can do what is necessary. He is a leader, and whether or not he sits, the iron throne, his parentage is symbolic of the bonds necessary to save the people of Westeros. He already showed he is willing to make himself unpopular for the greater good. Now he must do that on the grand stage.

He knows it won't matter who sits the iron throne when the whitewalkers invade, but his parentage gives him the drive he needs to lead.
 
G

Guerrillas in the Mist

Member
Napalm_Frank said:
Bran mentions him by name at one point.

By the way was it ever established in the show who is commander of gold cloaks after Bronn?
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Ser Not-Appearing-In-This-Season.

Jokes aside, I'm kind of disappointed that most Cersei's scheming in KL was cut from the show. Mervyn Trant (sp?) has filled in for the Kettleblacks, but I think a big part the enjoyment of the books was seeing Cersei's amateur hour attempt at Machiavellian politics unravel, where in the series it just sort of happens all of a sudden.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Now that they've fulfilled 2/3 of the prophecy, I wonder how Tommen will die.

It's a big enough event that doing it this season necessitates several other scenes.
 
ToyMachine228

ToyMachine228

Member
Guerrillas in the Mist said:
Ser Not-Appearing-In-This-Season.

Jokes aside, I'm kind of disappointed that most Cersei's scheming in KL was cut from the show. Mervyn Trant (sp?) has filled in for the Kettleblacks, but I think a big part the enjoyment of the books was seeing Cersei's amateur hour attempt at Machiavellian politics unravel, where in the series it just sort of happens all of a sudden.
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I think we may see that this season. For vengeance she will do plenty of "bad" things that will finally push Jaime to leave.
 
O

Oldest Snake

Member
ToyMachine228 said:
I think we may see that this season. For vengeance she will do plenty of "bad" things that will finally push Jaime to leave.
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The show has generally painted Cersei in a good light, and Jaime in a bad one. I think they'll either part on ok-ish circumstances again (like him going to Dorne to save their daughter) or she'll send him away to 'prove' himself to her (which could lead to him souring on her).
 
VenomousCoffee

VenomousCoffee

Member
Cersei's shitty administrating Was one of my favorite things from the books, but it's just too much content to include on the show.

They made a lot of mistakes last season, but I am sympathetic to their dilemma of only having about 500-something minutes to use each season.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
VenomousCoffee said:
They made a lot of mistakes last season, but I am sympathetic to their dilemma of only having about 500-something minutes to use each season.
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high-septon.png


This was part of their minute allotment for King's Landing.
 
F

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
Oldest Snake said:
The show has generally painted Cersei in a good light, and Jaime in a bad one. I think they'll either part on ok-ish circumstances again (like him going to Dorne to save their daughter) or she'll send him away to 'prove' himself to her (which could lead to him souring on her).
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I really do see her sending him away. Two of their children died on his watch on the show.
 
N

Napalm_Frank

Member
Guerrillas in the Mist said:
Ser Not-Appearing-In-This-Season.

Jokes aside, I'm kind of disappointed that most Cersei's scheming in KL was cut from the show. Mervyn Trant (sp?) has filled in for the Kettleblacks, but I think a big part the enjoyment of the books was seeing Cersei's amateur hour attempt at Machiavellian politics unravel, where in the series it just sort of happens all of a sudden.
Click to expand...

IIRC Cersei chapters wer by far the best in AFFC.
 
S

Sean C

Member
Napalm_Frank said:
IIRC Cersei chapters wer by far the best in AFFC.
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Probably the finest black comedy in the books.

The show kind of ruins it for me by trying to make Cersei more sympathetic, when the whole fun of it is that she's such an awful, incompetent moron patting herself on the back even as she totally messes up everything.
 
K

KahooTs

Member
Moff said:
but that's exactly what I am saying, when I use my "strange system" of rules. It all depends on how you enforce your claim, which is why Dany needs an army. and jon would as well, the question is who cares about him being a targaryen? no one.
the wildlings and the north? they would follow him either way. I just don't understand how him being a targaryen could be of any importance. there's no way he would want to sit the iron throne anyway.
Click to expand...

Blood of the Dragon Dany will care a whole lot. I only live to sit a son of Rhaegar on the IT Jon Con would care. I failed in my duty to protect Rhaegar's children Jaime will care too.

Jon will probably refuse to take the IT, but as if he's not coming south and making it to KL, who else do you think all those forces conveniently converging in the North are for? Or who else do you think is going to give us our contemporary hour of the wolf?
 
S

Sean C

Member
KahooTs said:
Jon will probably refuse to take the IT, but as if he's not coming south and making it to KL, who else do you think all those forces conveniently converging in the North are for? Or who else do you think is going to give us our contemporary hour of the wolf?
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I'd say those forces converging on the North are more likely to be involved in a life-or-death struggle with the White Walkers in the near future than going south to tussle over the Iron Throne.

I don't think there's going to be a "contemporary hour of the wolf". Cersei is doing a fine job of bringing the Lannisters down by herself.
 
A

Apt101

Member
It will probably be a sensible ending, not very romantic. When winter comes with its hunger and the Others, the Tyrell's who feed everyone with their holdings in The Reach and Highgarden will curry favor with the general populace and their lords. They're already in key positions of power. The Lannisters will be gone and hated, the Starks are sworn to the North, and I seriously doubt Dany will have a triumphant, fairy tale ending.

Kind of like how the War of the Roses ultimately ended with neither Lancasters nor Yorks in control, but rather a Tudor. Hell, maybe Young Griff (or whoever the show analog may be) will marry Margery, and that is who will take the throne. The Tudors came from illegitimacy, similar to Blackfyres.
 
N

Nodnol

Member
I always lurk in the GoT threads, but we're getting close now, and the hype is building.

What do we know, or think, is the likely arcs for each character/area?

North, I'm guessing Jon, with Davos as an advisor, leads the Wildlings against the Boltons, free from the Black. Not sure how they'll fair, but I'm rooting for Jon to run Ramsey through, and Jon to consolidate a new northern power from Winterfell in the upcoming battle with the dead. I've always subscribed to the idea that Jon is going to be Azor Ahai reborn.

Essos, I'm hoping by the season's end, Dany has unified the Dothraki, retaken Mereen, and managed to find some ships. Is there anything left for her in Essos? Surely by E10, she's set sail for Westeros.

South is the only area I'm not sure where they're going, other than Cersei on a path of vengeance.

What with the new/revisited areas, like the Greyjoys, I'm skeptical as to how far they can move everyone along. I haven't kept 100% up to date, so maybe I've missed some things, or ideas I have have already been dismissed.
 
K

KahooTs

Member
Sean C said:
I'd say those forces converging on the North are more likely to be involved in a life-or-death struggle with the White Walkers in the near future than going south to tussle over the Iron Throne.

I don't think there's going to be a "contemporary hour of the wolf". Cersei is doing a fine job of bringing the Lannisters down by herself.
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The series long threat of the Others and their apocalypse is going to be defeated by what's in the north? With what Valyrian steel? With what dragonglass? All series long the NW has called for help and has been ignored by the IT. He will go south because he will need the IT, the whole realm really, to fight the Others, and he can't afford to be ignored like Yoren or Thorne.

We have Cregan Stark who came south in the aftermath of the dance of dragons. The Young Wolf, Jon's brother who went south, and the Young Dragon, Jon's hero, whose claim to fame is having gone south and conquered. Jon is both a young wolf and dragon, GRRM really couldn't be less subtle than if he had KL covered in Snow in some vision of Dany's or something.

Cersei is barely a blip on the radar in the scheme of things and will be long gone before the war for the dawn. Aegon and Dany are set to fight over the IT in the near future. There's still a long long way to go in the series.
 
C

Cesare Borgia

Banned
KahooTs said:
The series long threat of the Others and their apocalypse is going to be defeated by what's in the north? With what Valyrian steel? With what dragonglass? All series long the NW has called for help and has been ignored by the IT. He will go south because he will need the IT, the whole realm really, to fight the Others, and he can't afford to be ignored like Yoren or Thorne.

We have Cregan Stark who came south in the aftermath of the dance of dragons. The Young Wolf, Jon's brother who went south, and the Young Dragon, Jon's hero, whose claim to fame is having gone south and conquered. Jon is both a young wolf and dragon, GRRM really couldn't be less subtle than if he had KL covered in Snow in some vision of Dany's or something.

Cersei is barely a blip on the radar in the scheme of things and will be long gone before the war for the dawn. Aegon and Dany are set to fight over the IT in the near future. There's still a long long way to go in the series.
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Is there even enough time for that? One of the problems Martin has created for himself is that he has multiple expected events stacked up, which probably should have happened in the last two books, but instead still haven't happened. In the north, the biggest example of this is the Others invasion. We all know the Others are going to invade, which means the Wall has to fall (or be breached magically). But now two books are left and that still hasn't happened. ADWD compounds that problem with Jon's "death." Now we presumably have to wait for Jon's fate to be resolved first, then the Others invasion/Wall falls.

Assuming an Other invasion is as apocalyptic as The Long Night...how is Jon going to have time to get revived, resolve whatever Night's Watch drama remains, learn his parentage, touch bases with Stannis (assuming Stannis wins the Winterfell battle), travel south through 20+ feet of snow, convince people he is the Targaryen heir or that the Others have returned, return north, and engage in battle with the Others again? All in two books?

Imagine if Jon had been stabbed in the middle of ADWD, and by the end of ADWD the Others invasion began/Wall was in the process of falling as wildlings and Melisandre carried Jon's frozen corpse to Winterfell. Instead Jon might not even "back" until the middle of TWOW, which could mean the Others invasion won't start until then. Not to mention the first 100-200 pages will be dominated by the northern battles.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Cesare Borgia said:
Is there even enough time for that? One of the problems Martin has created for himself is that he has multiple expected events stacked up, which probably should have happened in the last two books, but instead still haven't happened. In the north, the biggest example of this is the Others invasion. We all know the Others are going to invade, which means the Wall has to fall (or be breached magically). But now two books are left and that still hasn't happened. ADWD compounds that problem with Jon's "death." Now we presumably have to wait for Jon's fate to be resolved first, then the Others invasion/Wall falls.

Assuming an Other invasion is as apocalyptic as The Long Night...how is Jon going to have time to get revived, resolve whatever Night's Watch drama remains, learn his parentage, touch bases with Stannis (assuming Stannis wins the Winterfell battle), travel south through 20+ feet of snow, convince people he is the Targaryen heir or that the Others have returned, return north, and engage in battle with the Others again? All in two books?

Imagine if Jon had been stabbed in the middle of ADWD, and by the end of ADWD the Others invasion began/Wall was in the process of falling as wildlings and Melisandre carried Jon's frozen corpse to Winterfell. Instead Jon might not even "back" until the middle of TWOW, which could mean the Others invasion won't start until then. Not to mention the first 100-200 pages will be dominated by the northern battles.
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I mean, barring his age he has all the time he needs. There's no limit on the amount of pages or books he can use, and he's never been firmly committed to any set series length. 2 more books is not set in stone, and unless he drastically changes the way he's been writing for the past 15 years, finishing it in 2 more books is probably not realistic at all.
 
C

Cornballer

Member
GoT twitter account says there should be a new VFX video up soon. Also, there are various critics and celebrities at the premiere, so we should get some impressions coming out tonight and this week.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
Cornballer said:
GoT twitter account says there should be a new VFX video up soon. Also, there are various critics and celebrities at the premiere, so we should get some impressions coming out tonight and this week.
Click to expand...

As an FYI to everyone, let's keep any specifics about the premiere that get out under spoiler tags until the show airs in a couple weeks.
 
P

Pkaz01

Member
Ah the smell of spoilers in the air.. game of thrones must be starting soon. I love this time of year. The hype is coming
 
C

Cesare Borgia

Banned
Basileus777 said:
I mean, barring his age he has all the time he needs. There's no limit on the amount of pages or books he can use, and he's never been firmly committed to any set series length. 2 more books is not set in stone, and unless he drastically changes the way he's been writing for the past 15 years, finishing it in 2 more books is probably not realistic at all.
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Good point. The shift in Martin's pacing from the early books to now is quite drastic. Even ASOS doesn't move as swiftly as the first two books, at least not until the last few chapters when it feels like an avalanche. Perhaps the most noticable way this appears in the last two books: all the travel travels. Stuff that likely would have been skipped or heavily self edited in the first two books. Multiple POVs feature this (Brienne, Tyrion, Damphair, Sam, etc). I'm not saying travel chapters are bad in general. I love Arya's "travel chapters" in ACOK. But AFFC and ADWD feature multiple travel chapters, and most of the journeys don't end in some memorable fashion or even lead to a resolution. That's a problem.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Cesare Borgia said:
Good point. The shift in Martin's pacing from the early books to now is quite drastic. Even ASOS doesn't move as swiftly as the first two books, at least not until the last few chapters when it feels like an avalanche. Perhaps the most noticable way this appears in the last two books: all the travel travels. Stuff that likely would have been skipped or heavily self edited in the first two books. Multiple POVs feature this (Brienne, Tyrion, Damphair, Sam, etc). I'm not saying travel chapters are bad in general. I love Arya's "travel chapters" in ACOK. But AFFC and ADWD feature multiple travel chapters, and most of the journeys don't end in some memorable fashion or even lead to a resolution. That's a problem.
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And the preview chapters from TWOW seem to be paced similarly to ADWD. Even if had wanted to, I'm not sure he could get back to AGOT pacing. That was written decades ago and the books have become so complex with so many characters and plot threads that need to be carefully maneuvered and put in place. I don't expect to see the books to start breezing through time and events.
 
K

KahooTs

Member
Cesare Borgia said:
Is there even enough time for that?
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There's way more time than people think. Two more books the size of ASOS and ADWD, he thinks he can get it done in that, that seems to be the minimum.

ASOS is not just huge, it's dense, heaps happened, it moved fast. It was on the back of the set up in AGOT and ACOK, like they were the uphill climb and ASOS the downhill descent.

AFFC and ADWD are set up books like AGOT and ACOK, the slow uphill climb, the downhill is about to start. There's two books of downhill though, because it's not just AFFC and ADWD that's getting resolved, it's those and everything built on in the first three too.

No more new POVs. And POVs are inevitably and by his own admission going to start dying off. Those left are going to converge, as they've started to. Theon and Asha. Brienne and Jaime. Barry, Vic and Tyrion. Arianne and JC. All the characters in the east are coming back west.

The internal middle slog of the character arcs has been done. The world building is about all done, it's as wide as it's going to get, the scope of the story is set to shrink from here. And with still so much content left, massive amount of plot is going to be covered.

One way to think of it is ASOS was basically split between two seasons and still they cut out heaps. If they did the next two books in two seasons each then we are now just one season past the middle of the show. Instead they're talking 7 with 8 a possibility, and to get there they're cutting out Aegon and whatever else.

In the original abandoned plan the dance with dragons was the middle of three stories, we are still a bit away from the beginning of the dance. In straight volume, if he finishes in the amount of words he hopes, we are around two-thirds through the series.
 
C

Cesare Borgia

Banned
Yea I read a couple preview chapters for a POV character and both are travel chapters. There are some interesting conversations in the chapters but ultimately I see no reason for it to be two chapters. So that's like 20-30 pages right there, instead of just being 10-15.

I do agree that Dance did a nice job setting up multiple arcs to really "pop" in the next book. However it was quite a painstaking process to get there, which wasn't enjoyable to read during some parts. He put in a lot of work rolling a boulder up the mountain. Now it's poised to roll down and be entertaining but as stated earlier he hasn't let go of some bad habits (based on preview chapters). How that will work now that all the POV chapters are back is a mystery. Maybe that's what is delaying things: trying to find a chapter balance+him wanting to keep various travel or world building chapters whixh results in less plot advancement time...
 
Moff

Moff

Member
KahooTs said:
who else do you think all those forces conveniently converging in the North are for? Or who else do you think is going to give us our contemporary hour of the wolf?
Click to expand...

the answer was already in my text you quoted, those people would follow him anyway, even if was not a targaryen. Hell, I'd say the north would rather follow a pure northerner stark than a stark/targaryen.
 
K

KahooTs

Member
Moff said:
the answer was already in my text you quoted, those people would follow him anyway, even if was not a targaryen. Hell, I'd say the north would rather follow a pure northerner stark than a stark/targaryen.
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And the answer to what you were wondering was in the part of my post you didn't quote.
 
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