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[Ethan Olivia]

So, season 5 is obviously the weakest, but what exactly is the problem with Stannis ?

It wasn't out of character to let Shireen be burnt. Actually it was the culmination of his whole arc, it was the act that sealed his fate: he was no Saviour, and already dead inside.

The ASOIAF was considered so refreshing for fantasy enthusiasts and general audiences because of how it handles its characters. GRRM went beyond depicting two sides of good and evil, but instead had various different factions at odds with each other as a consequence of various political motivations.

In book four, the Stark name is at an all time low and their assets were all but destroyed during the war of five Kings. Taking their place as rulers of the North was a faction that everybody hated (The Boltons), oppressing the remaining scattered Stark loyalists and instilling fear and terror in the region. It's obvious that the prevailing mood in the North is the desire to see the Boltons ousted and the Starks returned to Winterfell. The Mormonts, Glovers, Umbers, Ryswells, Dustins, Manderlys, Hornwoods and all of the Mountain Clans want this, but having lost key figureheads during the war, there is no leader to coordinate such a resistance.

Enter Stannis Baratheon.

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

Book Stannis delivers this excellent quote (not in the TV show) which explains why he's moving his forces up North.

Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

And the interesting dynamic of the resulting situation is what makes GRRM so effective. You have a character who has an army largely made of religious fanatics who commits burnings, who was responsible for the death of his brother, and who is accompanied by a red Witch whose character screams the word villain. Arriving at the Battle for Castle Black just in time to prevent the Wildlings from taking the Wall (not in the TV show), as his men shout STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS! (not in the TV show).

GRRM has set up the story in such a way that the fanbase is desperate for Stark vengeance, but in a typical trope-busting GRRM style, the character that will be spearheading this movement is one that readers were at best, suspicious of. However, things begin to change and the audience begins to warm to Stannis, a good way of doing this is through forming a positive relationship with fan favourite Jon Snow.

Jon glanced back at Stannis. For and instant their eyes met. Then the king nodded and went back inside his tower.

Yet of course, after the beheading of Janos Slynt, the nod wasn't in the TV show.

What makes book Stannis great is that he takes a completely no nonsense approach when it comes to the Boltons (unlike D&D). The Boltons are a family that have succeeded because there have been no good men around to stop them. While Ramsey can effectively instil terror through harassment and torture, his capabilities as a warrior and a general have been far overstated (in the books) and Stannis knows this.

I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?

He seems to be one of the few characters also (correctly) aware that Roose Bolton has made a series of stupid decisions since he returned up North.

Betraying the most loved house in Westeros? Stupid.
Defending the recently sacked Winterfell as opposed to the notoriously difficult to siege Dreadfort? Stupid.
Sitting himself in Winterfell, amidst lords that are openly in defiance against him, failing to maintain control of the situation, and then sending out a force of his only real allies (The Freys) to deal with Stannis, in lands not their own?

Really fucking stupid.

"Bolton has blundered," the king declared. "All he had to do was sit inside his castle whilst we starved. Instead he has sent some portion of his strength forth to give us battle. His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot. His men will be well nourished, ours go into battle with empty bellies. It makes no matter. Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come. We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage."

And so rightfully, the hype behind Stannis Baratheon grows and grows as the audience begin to realize that despite the odds being stacked against him, this man (the best military commander in Westeros) has a genuine shot at taking down the Boltons. GRRM knows what he's doing, and outside of the Jon Snow/Stannis friendship, writing scenes where Stannis offers to raise Jon Snow as Jon Stark sends support for Stannis through the roof. We begin to see that the character is a pragmatist, and while the beliefs that surround Stannis may be reprehensible, the Red God is viewed by him as a means to an end, it definitely doesn't control his actions.

“A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire,” Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, “The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R’hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever.”

“Half my army is made up of unbelievers,” Stannis had replied. “I will have no burnings. Pray harder.”

Stannis goes on to lay siege to Winterfell, and all signs point towards victory.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39wt32/spoilers_all_relax_the_upcoming_battle_in_twow/

But sadly, D&D didn't really like Stannis and have seemingly opted to forego a nuanced storyline in favour of a more dumbed down approach, where Jon Snow takes a Hollywood movie star role and will be the sole savior of everything, ever.

And it sucks, and there were many casualties.

- D&D didn't know what to do with Stannis's arch and so they took the easy (and overused) way out and did Macbeth. But Macbeth is Shakespeare, so it must be high art, right?
- The Boltons were reduced into boring, unstoppable villains. Ramsey unrealistically scored a victory against the best military comamnder in Westeros because of '20 good men'.

TL;DR: The Stannis adaptation is a perfect example of D&D's lack of understanding of what makes the series great, they took a populist approach to storytelling instead of forcing the audience to root for a morally grey faction against a hated foe, probably because they feared TV audiences couldn't cope. They are now giving the Northern vengeance storyline to a fan favourite instead. The writing was awful, and Season 5 paid for it in quality.

 

[Blatz]

The ASOIAF was considered so refreshing for fantasy enthusiasts and general audiences because of how it handles its characters. GRRM went beyond depicting two sides of good and evil, but instead had various different factions at odds with each other as a consequence of various political motivations.

In book four, the Stark name is at an all time low and their assets were all but destroyed during the war of five Kings. Taking their place as rulers of the North was a faction that everybody hated (The Boltons), oppressing the remaining scattered Stark loyalists and instilling fear and terror in the region. It's obvious that the prevailing mood in the North is the desire to see the Boltons ousted and the Starks returned to Winterfell. The Mormonts, Glovers, Umbers, Ryswells, Dustins, Manderlys, Hornwoods and all of the Mountain Clans all want, but having lost key figureheads during the war, there is no leader to coordinate such a resistance.

Enter Stannis Baratheon.



Book Stannis delivers this excellent quote (not in the TV show) which explains why he's moving his forces up North.



And the interesting dynamic of the resulting situation is what makes GRRM so effective. You have a character who has an army largely made of religious fanatics who commits burnings, who was responsible for the death of his brother, and who is accompanied by a red Witch whose character screams the word villain. Arriving at the Battle for Castle Black just in time to prevent the Wildlings from taking the Wall (not in the TV show), as his men shout STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS! (not in the TV show).

GRRM has set up the story in such a way that the fanbase is desperate for Stark vengeance, but in a typical trope-busting GRRM style, the character that will be spearheading this movement is one that readers were at best, suspicious of. However, things begin to change and the audience begins to warm to Stannis, a good way of doing this is through forming a positive relationship with fan favourite Jon Snow.



Yet of course, the nod wasn't in the TV show.

What makes book Stannis great is that he takes a completely no nonsense approach when it comes to the Boltons (unlike D&D). The Boltons are a family that have succeeded because there have been no good men around to stop them. While Ramsey can effectively instil terror through harassment and torture, his capabilities as a warrior and a general have been far overstated (in the books) and Stannis knows this.



He seems to be one of the few characters also (correctly) aware that Roose Bolton has made a series of stupid decisions since he returned up North.

Betraying the most loved house in Westeros? Stupid.
Defending the recently sacked Winterfell as opposed to the notoriously difficult to siege Dreadfort? Stupid.
Sitting himself in Winterfell, amidst lords that are openly in defiance against him, failing to maintain control of the situation, and then sending out a force of his only real allies (The Freys) to deal with Stannis, in lands not their own?

Really fucking stupid.



And so rightfully, the hype behind Stannis Baratheon grows and grows as the audience begin to realize that despite the odds being stacked against him, this man (the best military commander in Westeros) has a genuine shot at taking down the Boltons. GRRM knows what he's doing, and writing scenes where he offers to raise Jon Snow as Jon Stark sends support for Stannis through the roof. We begin to see that the character is a pragmatist, and while the beliefs that surround Stannis may be reprehensible, the Red God is viewed by him as a means to an end, it definitely doesn't control his actions.



Stannis goes on to lay siege to Winterfell, and all signs point towards victory.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39wt32/spoilers_all_relax_the_upcoming_battle_in_twow/

But sadly, D&D didn't really like Stannis and have seemingly opted to forego a nuanced storyline in favour of a more dumbed down approach, where Jon Snow takes a Hollywood movie star role and will be the sole savior of everything, ever.

And it sucks, and there were many casualties.

- D&D didn't know what to do with Stannis's arch and so they with the (overused) Macbeth story.
- The Boltons were reduced into boring, unstoppable villains. Ramsey unrealistically scored a victory against the best military comamnder in Westeros because of '20 good men'.

TL;DR: The Stannis adaptation is pretty much a perfect example of D&D's lack of understanding of what makes the series great, they took a populist approach to storytelling instead of forcing the audience to root for a morally grey faction against a hated foe. Now giving the storyline to a fan favourite instead. The writing was awful, and Season 5 paid for it in quality.

Reading this made me miss book Stannis immensely. Great Post!

 

[Red Arremer]

It's obvious that the prevailing mood in the North is the desire to see the Boltons ousted and the Starks returned to Winterfell. The Mormonts, Glovers, Umbers, Ryswells, Dustins, Manderlys, Hornwoods and all of the Mountain Clans all want, but having lost key figureheads during the war, there is no leader to coordinate such a resistance.

I would argue that there's more than just one faction (i.e. Stark loyalists) within the North. Lady Dustin in particular seems to be more interested in re-establishing the Ryswells as the Barrow Kings. It's difficult to distinguish who has what exactly in mind, and the only Stark loyalists we know of that still are relevant are Houses Manderly and Mormont, and even those might have other motives as well.

Agreed with the rest of your post, though.

- The Boltons were reduced into boring, unstoppable villains. Ramsey unrealistically scored a victory against the best military comamnder in Westeros because of '20 good men'.

It's such a dumb idea too, though. I mean, Stannis, even if he was just an okay military commander, certainly would've set up a whole slew of sentries and guards on his supplies and horses.
Yet 20 people were able to walk into Stannis' camp to accomplish this:
- Walk into Stannis' camp without being detected
- Set ALL the supplies on fire
- Set ALL the horses on fire/loose
- Leave Stannis' camp without being detected
- Potentially kill one or more guards without being detected
- Potentially cause more mayhem

Literally nobody saw them do this. Fucking ninjas could learn a lot from Ramsay and his 20 good men.

 

[SpaceHorror]

The ASOIAF was considered so refreshing for fantasy enthusiasts and general audiences because of how it handles its characters. GRRM went beyond depicting two sides of good and evil, but instead had various different factions at odds with each other as a consequence of various political motivations.

In book four, the Stark name is at an all time low and their assets were all but destroyed during the war of five Kings. Taking their place as rulers of the North was a faction that everybody hated (The Boltons), oppressing the remaining scattered Stark loyalists and instilling fear and terror in the region. It's obvious that the prevailing mood in the North is the desire to see the Boltons ousted and the Starks returned to Winterfell. The Mormonts, Glovers, Umbers, Ryswells, Dustins, Manderlys, Hornwoods and all of the Mountain Clans all want, but having lost key figureheads during the war, there is no leader to coordinate such a resistance.

Enter Stannis Baratheon.



Book Stannis delivers this excellent quote (not in the TV show) which explains why he's moving his forces up North.



And the interesting dynamic of the resulting situation is what makes GRRM so effective. You have a character who has an army largely made of religious fanatics who commits burnings, who was responsible for the death of his brother, and who is accompanied by a red Witch whose character screams the word villain. Arriving at the Battle for Castle Black just in time to prevent the Wildlings from taking the Wall (not in the TV show), as his men shout STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS! (not in the TV show).

GRRM has set up the story in such a way that the fanbase is desperate for Stark vengeance, but in a typical trope-busting GRRM style, the character that will be spearheading this movement is one that readers were at best, suspicious of. However, things begin to change and the audience begins to warm to Stannis, a good way of doing this is through forming a positive relationship with fan favourite Jon Snow.



Yet of course, the nod wasn't in the TV show.

What makes book Stannis great is that he takes a completely no nonsense approach when it comes to the Boltons (unlike D&D). The Boltons are a family that have succeeded because there have been no good men around to stop them. While Ramsey can effectively instil terror through harassment and torture, his capabilities as a warrior and a general have been far overstated (in the books) and Stannis knows this.



He seems to be one of the few characters also (correctly) aware that Roose Bolton has made a series of stupid decisions since he returned up North.

Betraying the most loved house in Westeros? Stupid.
Defending the recently sacked Winterfell as opposed to the notoriously difficult to siege Dreadfort? Stupid.
Sitting himself in Winterfell, amidst lords that are openly in defiance against him, failing to maintain control of the situation, and then sending out a force of his only real allies (The Freys) to deal with Stannis, in lands not their own?

Really fucking stupid.



And so rightfully, the hype behind Stannis Baratheon grows and grows as the audience begin to realize that despite the odds being stacked against him, this man (the best military commander in Westeros) has a genuine shot at taking down the Boltons. GRRM knows what he's doing, and writing scenes where he offers to raise Jon Snow as Jon Stark sends support for Stannis through the roof. We begin to see that the character is a pragmatist, and while the beliefs that surround Stannis may be reprehensible, the Red God is viewed by him as a means to an end, it definitely doesn't control his actions.



Stannis goes on to lay siege to Winterfell, and all signs point towards victory.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39wt32/spoilers_all_relax_the_upcoming_battle_in_twow/

But sadly, D&D didn't really like Stannis and have seemingly opted to forego a nuanced storyline in favour of a more dumbed down approach, where Jon Snow takes a Hollywood movie star role and will be the sole savior of everything, ever.

And it sucks, and there were many casualties.

- D&D didn't know what to do with Stannis's arch and so they with the (overused) Macbeth story.
- The Boltons were reduced into boring, unstoppable villains. Ramsey unrealistically scored a victory against the best military comamnder in Westeros because of '20 good men'.

TL;DR: The Stannis adaptation is pretty much a perfect example of D&D's lack of understanding of what makes the series great, they took a populist approach to storytelling instead of forcing the audience to root for a morally grey faction against a hated foe. Now giving the storyline to a fan favourite instead. The writing was awful, and Season 5 paid for it in quality.

 

[Chase17]

So I read the books a while back and am finally going through the show to get ready for the new season. I just got to the point where Jamie rapes Cersei next to Joffrey's body. Did that happen in the books, or did I just put it of my mind? Don't remember it at all, thought I liked Jamie in the books.

 

[mantidor]

I understand some of the changes. I remember Martin mentioning that he understand why there are much more characters alive in his books than in the show, the answer is rather simple, the characters in the show are actors and actors are expected to get paid.

So I get how difficult and hard is to make a show of this scale, but that doesn't excuse them of the big blunders of season 5.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

So I read the books a while back and am finally going through the show to get ready for the new season. I just got to the point where Jamie rapes Cersei next to Joffrey's body. Did that happen in the books, or did I just put it of my mind? Don't remember it at all, thought I liked Jamie in the books.

They bang next to Joffrey's rotting corpse, but definitely not rape.

 

[Chase17]

They bang next to Joffrey's rotting corpse, but definitely not rape.

Oh ok. Explains why it didn't stick out to me as much. Thanks!

 

[Enosh]

Book Stannis delivers this excellent quote (not in the TV show) which explains why he's moving his forces up North.

show Stannis can't deliver this quote because it was show Melisandre that decided to go up north for him

Yet of course, after the beheading of Janos Slynt, the nod wasn't in the TV show.

there was a slight nod iirc ^^

 

[Ishan]

The ASOIAF was considered so refreshing for fantasy enthusiasts and general audiences because of how it handles its characters. GRRM went beyond depicting two sides of good and evil, but instead had various different factions at odds with each other as a consequence of various political motivations.

In book four, the Stark name is at an all time low and their assets were all but destroyed during the war of five Kings. Taking their place as rulers of the North was a faction that everybody hated (The Boltons), oppressing the remaining scattered Stark loyalists and instilling fear and terror in the region. It's obvious that the prevailing mood in the North is the desire to see the Boltons ousted and the Starks returned to Winterfell. The Mormonts, Glovers, Umbers, Ryswells, Dustins, Manderlys, Hornwoods and all of the Mountain Clans want this, but having lost key figureheads during the war, there is no leader to coordinate such a resistance.

Enter Stannis Baratheon.



Book Stannis delivers this excellent quote (not in the TV show) which explains why he's moving his forces up North.



And the interesting dynamic of the resulting situation is what makes GRRM so effective. You have a character who has an army largely made of religious fanatics who commits burnings, who was responsible for the death of his brother, and who is accompanied by a red Witch whose character screams the word villain. Arriving at the Battle for Castle Black just in time to prevent the Wildlings from taking the Wall (not in the TV show), as his men shout STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS! (not in the TV show).

GRRM has set up the story in such a way that the fanbase is desperate for Stark vengeance, but in a typical trope-busting GRRM style, the character that will be spearheading this movement is one that readers were at best, suspicious of. However, things begin to change and the audience begins to warm to Stannis, a good way of doing this is through forming a positive relationship with fan favourite Jon Snow.



Yet of course, after the beheading of Janos Slynt, the nod wasn't in the TV show.

What makes book Stannis great is that he takes a completely no nonsense approach when it comes to the Boltons (unlike D&D). The Boltons are a family that have succeeded because there have been no good men around to stop them. While Ramsey can effectively instil terror through harassment and torture, his capabilities as a warrior and a general have been far overstated (in the books) and Stannis knows this.



He seems to be one of the few characters also (correctly) aware that Roose Bolton has made a series of stupid decisions since he returned up North.

Betraying the most loved house in Westeros? Stupid.
Defending the recently sacked Winterfell as opposed to the notoriously difficult to siege Dreadfort? Stupid.
Sitting himself in Winterfell, amidst lords that are openly in defiance against him, failing to maintain control of the situation, and then sending out a force of his only real allies (The Freys) to deal with Stannis, in lands not their own?

Really fucking stupid.



And so rightfully, the hype behind Stannis Baratheon grows and grows as the audience begin to realize that despite the odds being stacked against him, this man (the best military commander in Westeros) has a genuine shot at taking down the Boltons. GRRM knows what he's doing, and outside of the Jon Snow/Stannis friendship, writing scenes where Stannis offers to raise Jon Snow as Jon Stark sends support for Stannis through the roof. We begin to see that the character is a pragmatist, and while the beliefs that surround Stannis may be reprehensible, the Red God is viewed by him as a means to an end, it definitely doesn't control his actions.



Stannis goes on to lay siege to Winterfell, and all signs point towards victory.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39wt32/spoilers_all_relax_the_upcoming_battle_in_twow/

But sadly, D&D didn't really like Stannis and have seemingly opted to forego a nuanced storyline in favour of a more dumbed down approach, where Jon Snow takes a Hollywood movie star role and will be the sole savior of everything, ever.

And it sucks, and there were many casualties.

- D&D didn't know what to do with Stannis's arch and so they took the easy (and overused) way out and did Macbeth. But Macbeth is Shakespeare, so it must be high art, right?
- The Boltons were reduced into boring, unstoppable villains. Ramsey unrealistically scored a victory against the best military comamnder in Westeros because of '20 good men'.

TL;DR: The Stannis adaptation is a perfect example of D&D's lack of understanding of what makes the series great, they took a populist approach to storytelling instead of forcing the audience to root for a morally grey faction against a hated foe, probably because they feared TV audiences couldn't cope. They are now giving the Northern vengeance storyline to a fan favourite instead. The writing was awful, and Season 5 paid for it in quality.

Show had look of a acknowledgement / slight nod it seems but his army did save the nights watch against the working army etc . And no one is denying that the character building is stronger in the books but it's a tv show vs large number of long books . And according to spoilers the north isn't just on Jon snow . Yes your character from the books isn't portrayed as in the books I'm sure many others are too ...

 

[Valhelm]

I definitely think we will never see anything past TWOW from GRRM

not even because GRRM might die, but I just have the feeling he either does not enjoy it anymore or he is simply no longer up to it. let's not forget that AFFC/ADWD were a lot worse than the first three books.

I disagree. ADOS will come out, but not for about a decade. GRRM knows he really cannot just quit, and despite his weight I doubt he'll die before his 70s.

 

[Ethan Olivia]

show Stannis can't deliver this quote because [bad change that D&D made]


there was a slight nod iirc ^^

Yes, that was indeed the point I was making.

The nod is ambiguous, which isn't good enough.

Yes your character from the books isn't portrayed as in the books I'm sure many others are too ...

Agreed, they also ruined Sansa Stark, Loras Tyrell, Mance Rayder, Barristan Selmy, Alliser Thorne and many others.

 

[Moff]

The nod is ambiguous, which isn't good enough.

that's really the kind of criticism that makes it very hard to take book purists seriously.
it is a slight nod, and nothing about this scene is ambiguous. it's clear that stannis gives his approval to jon which is 100% what this scene was supposed to be about in the books.
saying it's not good enough is simply silly.

 

[Ethan Olivia]

that's really the kind of criticism that makes it very hard to take book purists seriously.
it is a slight nod, and nothing about this scene is ambiguous. it's clear that stannis gives his approval to jon which is 100% what this scene was supposed to be about in the books.
saying it's not good enough is simply silly.

The defining point of that scene is Stannis nodding to Jon. When I first watched the scene, I thought it had been omitted. Even now, I do not see a nod.

If you are changing a key scene in a way that could possibly make it detrimental, then that is a valid criticism.

 

[NeoGiff]

that's really the kind of criticism that makes it very hard to take book purists seriously.
it is a slight nod, and nothing about this scene is ambiguous. it's clear that stannis gives his approval to jon which is 100% what this scene was supposed to be about in the books.
saying it's not good enough is simply silly.

This.

If the nod was any clearer, there'd be complaints that it wasn't in keeping with Stannis' character, which is exactly the complaint the Ethan Olivia is trying to make.

 

[Ethan Olivia]

This.

If the nod was any clearer, there'd be complaints that it wasn't in keeping with Stannis' character, which is exactly the complaint the Ethan Olivia is trying to make.

No there wouldn't.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I guess this is was people needed

 

[NeoGiff]

The defining point of that scene is Stannis nodding to Jon. When I first watched the scene, I thought it had been omitted. Even now, I do not see a nod.

If you are changing a key scene in a way that could possibly make it detrimental, then that is a valid criticism.

No, the defining point is Jon making the decision to personally execute Slynt. The Stannis nod is a character moment at the end of the scene.

Using the argument that you don't see the nod is absolutely ridiculous. It's there, people saw it, and it was suitably nuanced (something which Dillane excels at). End of.

 

[NeoGiff]

I guess this is was people needed

Better Call Saul did the scene far better than those hacks making GoT.

 

[Ethan Olivia]

No, the defining point is Jon making the decision to personally execute Slynt. The Stannis nod is a character moment at the end of the scene.

Using the argument that you don't see the nod is absolutely ridiculous. It's there, people saw it, and it was suitably nuanced (something which Dillane excels at). End of.

No it isn't, It wasn't clear to me when I first watched the scene, and do note that I was looking out for it. It's also worth noting that the first poster responding to me used the words 'slight' and 'iirc', which should tell you something.

But hey, maybe I'll give you this one. Also, do feel free to address a non minor criticism in your next post

 

[SpaceHorror]

Nod was clearly there and I noticed it the first time I watched that episode. I wholeheartedly agree with your post on Stannis in regards to everything else, but the nod was there.

 

[Cornballer]

- Maisie Williams Talks Game of Thrones Season 6 on Late Night (interview portion that accompanied that Ep 1 clip from last night)
- IGN red carpet interviews: Game of Thrones Cast Talk Jon Snow Theories
- IGN talks to Maisie Williams briefly
- EW: Game of Thrones producers: Obama getting advance episodes

EDIT:
- Sophie Turner doing impressions for Net-a-Porter
- Emilia Clarke interview on Ellen

 

[Puppen]

Wether or not there was a fucking nod is at the absolute bottom of the list of problems with the depiction of Stannis on the show.

 

[Herbs]

he should've danced a jig while nodding.

nice to see this thread gearing up for the shit commentary they'll be engaging in when the new season starts.

 

[-griffy-]

- EW: Game of Thrones producers: Obama getting advance episodes

So if there's a leak this season we can thank Obama.

 

[Skilletor]

That was an amazing post about Stannis and people are getting hung up on something really small. What about the rest?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

He did not and it was good enough, but just about everything else the guy wrote is correct. When I was reading that post I knew people were going to jump on that one thing and pretty much ignore the rest.

 

[Moff]

On Stannis as a whole.
Reading the non-reader thread I always felt that the non-readers felt the very same way about Stannis the way I did when I read the books.
It was always surprising to me that book readers complained about Stannis not being likeable enough. Because Stannis was not supposed to be likeable up until the point where he rode north in ASOS. I think he was described to have the charm of an accountant, which is why all the houses supported Renly and not him, the true heir. Stannis was never supposed to be likeable. I felt that way and non-readers felt that way.
But the moment he saved the wall from the wildlings the non-readers liked him as well. I think many book readers went from that point of view when they judged Stannis in the earlier seasons of the show, but that's not how he was supposed to be back then.

To be quite honest, I think up until the point where we left the book material, I think Stannis was pretty much spot on. What really happens in the snowstorm and with Shireen in the books remains to be seen. The biggest change they did to Stannis was that they made it Melisandres idea to ride north instead of him. That is a big deal, but I can only guess they did that because Melisandre is likely an endgame player and Stannis will be long dead before the end.

 

[NeoGiff]

That was an amazing post about Stannis and people are getting hung up on something really small. What about the rest?

No one's denying it was an amazing post. It was.

The rest has been discussed here ad nauseam over the last year, and many of us in here agree that Stannis' arc was butchered.

We're getting hung up on the nod because what was in the post regarding it was factually incorrect, and was one of the things we believe the show actually did pull off very well.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

The ASOIAF was considered so refreshing for fantasy enthusiasts and general audiences because of how it handles its characters. GRRM went beyond depicting two sides of good and evil, but instead had various different factions at odds with each other as a consequence of various political motivations.

In book four, the Stark name is at an all time low and their assets were all but destroyed during the war of five Kings. Taking their place as rulers of the North was a faction that everybody hated (The Boltons), oppressing the remaining scattered Stark loyalists and instilling fear and terror in the region. It's obvious that the prevailing mood in the North is the desire to see the Boltons ousted and the Starks returned to Winterfell. The Mormonts, Glovers, Umbers, Ryswells, Dustins, Manderlys, Hornwoods and all of the Mountain Clans want this, but having lost key figureheads during the war, there is no leader to coordinate such a resistance.

Enter Stannis Baratheon.



Book Stannis delivers this excellent quote (not in the TV show) which explains why he's moving his forces up North.



And the interesting dynamic of the resulting situation is what makes GRRM so effective. You have a character who has an army largely made of religious fanatics who commits burnings, who was responsible for the death of his brother, and who is accompanied by a red Witch whose character screams the word villain. Arriving at the Battle for Castle Black just in time to prevent the Wildlings from taking the Wall (not in the TV show), as his men shout STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS! (not in the TV show).

GRRM has set up the story in such a way that the fanbase is desperate for Stark vengeance, but in a typical trope-busting GRRM style, the character that will be spearheading this movement is one that readers were at best, suspicious of. However, things begin to change and the audience begins to warm to Stannis, a good way of doing this is through forming a positive relationship with fan favourite Jon Snow.



Yet of course, after the beheading of Janos Slynt, the nod wasn't in the TV show.

What makes book Stannis great is that he takes a completely no nonsense approach when it comes to the Boltons (unlike D&D). The Boltons are a family that have succeeded because there have been no good men around to stop them. While Ramsey can effectively instil terror through harassment and torture, his capabilities as a warrior and a general have been far overstated (in the books) and Stannis knows this.



He seems to be one of the few characters also (correctly) aware that Roose Bolton has made a series of stupid decisions since he returned up North.

Betraying the most loved house in Westeros? Stupid.
Defending the recently sacked Winterfell as opposed to the notoriously difficult to siege Dreadfort? Stupid.
Sitting himself in Winterfell, amidst lords that are openly in defiance against him, failing to maintain control of the situation, and then sending out a force of his only real allies (The Freys) to deal with Stannis, in lands not their own?

Really fucking stupid.



And so rightfully, the hype behind Stannis Baratheon grows and grows as the audience begin to realize that despite the odds being stacked against him, this man (the best military commander in Westeros) has a genuine shot at taking down the Boltons. GRRM knows what he's doing, and outside of the Jon Snow/Stannis friendship, writing scenes where Stannis offers to raise Jon Snow as Jon Stark sends support for Stannis through the roof. We begin to see that the character is a pragmatist, and while the beliefs that surround Stannis may be reprehensible, the Red God is viewed by him as a means to an end, it definitely doesn't control his actions.



Stannis goes on to lay siege to Winterfell, and all signs point towards victory.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39wt32/spoilers_all_relax_the_upcoming_battle_in_twow/

But sadly, D&D didn't really like Stannis and have seemingly opted to forego a nuanced storyline in favour of a more dumbed down approach, where Jon Snow takes a Hollywood movie star role and will be the sole savior of everything, ever.

And it sucks, and there were many casualties.

- D&D didn't know what to do with Stannis's arch and so they took the easy (and overused) way out and did Macbeth. But Macbeth is Shakespeare, so it must be high art, right?
- The Boltons were reduced into boring, unstoppable villains. Ramsey unrealistically scored a victory against the best military comamnder in Westeros because of '20 good men'.

TL;DR: The Stannis adaptation is a perfect example of D&D's lack of understanding of what makes the series great, they took a populist approach to storytelling instead of forcing the audience to root for a morally grey faction against a hated foe, probably because they feared TV audiences couldn't cope. They are now giving the Northern vengeance storyline to a fan favourite instead. The writing was awful, and Season 5 paid for it in quality.

While this is a good post and highlights why I love Stannis and the northern arcs of ADWD, I have a couple complaints

1. The book is not the show.
2. Saying the show creators "don't like" a character is ridiculous.

By this point it should be clear the show is its own thing. The show has little interest in or TIME to make characterization more complex. The show has limited time and has to hit certain beats, many of which are either action based or meant to remind viewers of things. That's just how this thing works.

And in terms of not liking a character, no. The obvious explanation is that Stannis is NOT a central character to the overarching story, and therefore the show decided not to put focus on him that could have gone elsewhere. It's clear the show wants the Winterfell battle victory to be Jon's, not Stannis'. Because Jon is a main character viewers like.

I prefer the books and don't really like the show but it should be judged entirely on its own merits, not on what the books do.

 

[Iksenpets]

No one's denying it was an amazing post. It was.

The rest has been discussed here ad nauseam over the last year, and many of us in here agree that Stannis' arc was butchered.

We're getting hung up on the nod because what was in the post regarding it was factually incorrect, and was one of the things we believe the show actually did pull off very well.

Show Stannis' nod was the sort of nod only Stannis could deliver. A man from whom the greatest approval you can hope for is the mere intimation of a nod. It was perfect. It's so subtle that when the TV footage gets converted into gifs the nod is lost somewhere in the image compression.

But yeah, show Stannis and book Stannis are pretty radically different characters. No denying that.

 

[NeoGiff]

Anyway, guys.

SEASON 6!

Great, promising trailers. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[SpaceHorror]

Anyway, guys.

SEASON 6!

Great, promising trailers. I'm looking forward to it.

Indeed. Honestly, after season 5 I thought I was done with the show. Despite all odds I'm really excited for Season 6.

 

[Cornballer]

So if there's a leak this season we can thank Obama.

Yup. Though it looks like there are a few other potential sources, as well. The international distributors are always pretty leaky.

- EW: Game of Thrones showrunners make a case against reading spoilers

To pull off the new season of the Emmy-winning drama, the first that’s set almost entirely set beyond the scope of George R.R. Martin’s novels, the producers implemented a score of heightened security measures. No more paper scripts (all electronic). The “circle of trust” was tightened among the cast and network executives with regard to story detail. Code names were used for certain characters and scenes. HBO’s international partners will get their copies of episodes much closer to each hour’s U.S. debut. And on the set itself, security was increased in an attempt to prevent fans from taking photos of the production.

"Much closer" still means people will have access to them beforehand. We shall see.

 

[Faddy]

You Stannis fanboys are something else.

Stannis: "I will have no burnings"

*the very next chapter*

The heat of the flames beat against her face, but even so she shivered. The air grew thick with smoke and the stink of burnt flesh, and one of the bodies still twitched against the red-hot chains that bound him to the stake.
After a time the screaming stopped.
Wordless, King Stannis walked away, back to the solitude of his
watchtower

 

[mantidor]

Yup. Though it looks like there are a few other potential sources, as well. The international distributors are always pretty leaky.

- EW: Game of Thrones showrunners make a case against reading spoilers"Much closer" still means people will have access to them beforehand. We shall see.

I'm sure that for international releases they must be send beforehand for the translations.

 

[gutshot]

Yeah, there have been a couple international leaks in seasons past. I wouldn't be surprised if there were again this year, despite HBO's best attempts to put a lid on them.

 

[cLOUDo]

will be so funny when book stannis burn shireen lol

 

[Cornballer]

I'm sure that for international releases they must be send beforehand for the translations.

Don't they do that in house before it gets sent out? I don't know the answer, but it seems like that would be the more secure way to handle it.

 

[NeoGiff]

All I know is that Linda is somehow involved with the translation, so it can't be in-house, can it?

 

[Rand0m TAG]

The ASOIAF was considered so refreshing for fantasy enthusiasts and general audiences because of how it handles its characters. GRRM went beyond depicting two sides of good and evil, but instead had various different factions at odds with each other as a consequence of various political motivations.

In book four, the Stark name is at an all time low and their assets were all but destroyed during the war of five Kings. Taking their place as rulers of the North was a faction that everybody hated (The Boltons), oppressing the remaining scattered Stark loyalists and instilling fear and terror in the region. It's obvious that the prevailing mood in the North is the desire to see the Boltons ousted and the Starks returned to Winterfell. The Mormonts, Glovers, Umbers, Ryswells, Dustins, Manderlys, Hornwoods and all of the Mountain Clans want this, but having lost key figureheads during the war, there is no leader to coordinate such a resistance.

Enter Stannis Baratheon.



Book Stannis delivers this excellent quote (not in the TV show) which explains why he's moving his forces up North.



And the interesting dynamic of the resulting situation is what makes GRRM so effective. You have a character who has an army largely made of religious fanatics who commits burnings, who was responsible for the death of his brother, and who is accompanied by a red Witch whose character screams the word villain. Arriving at the Battle for Castle Black just in time to prevent the Wildlings from taking the Wall (not in the TV show), as his men shout STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS! (not in the TV show).

GRRM has set up the story in such a way that the fanbase is desperate for Stark vengeance, but in a typical trope-busting GRRM style, the character that will be spearheading this movement is one that readers were at best, suspicious of. However, things begin to change and the audience begins to warm to Stannis, a good way of doing this is through forming a positive relationship with fan favourite Jon Snow.



Yet of course, after the beheading of Janos Slynt, the nod wasn't in the TV show.

What makes book Stannis great is that he takes a completely no nonsense approach when it comes to the Boltons (unlike D&D). The Boltons are a family that have succeeded because there have been no good men around to stop them. While Ramsey can effectively instil terror through harassment and torture, his capabilities as a warrior and a general have been far overstated (in the books) and Stannis knows this.



He seems to be one of the few characters also (correctly) aware that Roose Bolton has made a series of stupid decisions since he returned up North.

Betraying the most loved house in Westeros? Stupid.
Defending the recently sacked Winterfell as opposed to the notoriously difficult to siege Dreadfort? Stupid.
Sitting himself in Winterfell, amidst lords that are openly in defiance against him, failing to maintain control of the situation, and then sending out a force of his only real allies (The Freys) to deal with Stannis, in lands not their own?

Really fucking stupid.



And so rightfully, the hype behind Stannis Baratheon grows and grows as the audience begin to realize that despite the odds being stacked against him, this man (the best military commander in Westeros) has a genuine shot at taking down the Boltons. GRRM knows what he's doing, and outside of the Jon Snow/Stannis friendship, writing scenes where Stannis offers to raise Jon Snow as Jon Stark sends support for Stannis through the roof. We begin to see that the character is a pragmatist, and while the beliefs that surround Stannis may be reprehensible, the Red God is viewed by him as a means to an end, it definitely doesn't control his actions.



Stannis goes on to lay siege to Winterfell, and all signs point towards victory.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39wt32/spoilers_all_relax_the_upcoming_battle_in_twow/

But sadly, D&D didn't really like Stannis and have seemingly opted to forego a nuanced storyline in favour of a more dumbed down approach, where Jon Snow takes a Hollywood movie star role and will be the sole savior of everything, ever.

And it sucks, and there were many casualties.

- D&D didn't know what to do with Stannis's arch and so they took the easy (and overused) way out and did Macbeth. But Macbeth is Shakespeare, so it must be high art, right?
- The Boltons were reduced into boring, unstoppable villains. Ramsey unrealistically scored a victory against the best military comamnder in Westeros because of '20 good men'.

TL;DR: The Stannis adaptation is a perfect example of D&D's lack of understanding of what makes the series great, they took a populist approach to storytelling instead of forcing the audience to root for a morally grey faction against a hated foe, probably because they feared TV audiences couldn't cope. They are now giving the Northern vengeance storyline to a fan favourite instead. The writing was awful, and Season 5 paid for it in quality.

damn it, your making me want to reread the books...

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

will be so funny when book stannis burn shireen lol

Stannis isn't going to be burning her, hell Melisandre isn't even with him both are still with the Night's Watch. She's going to likely burn her for reviving Jon or some shit if at all.

 

[Steelyuhas]

All I know is that Linda is somehow involved with the translation, so it can't be in-house, can it?

Wait, really?

Spoiler

shamebell.gif me if this is a joke that I completely failed to recognize

 

[Faddy]

Stannis isn't going to be burning her, hell Melisandre isn't even with him both are still with the Night's Watch. She's going to likely burn her for reviving Jon or some shit if at all.

Mel is going to read the Bastard Letter and burn Shireen to bring back Stannis but it will revive Jon instead. Actually she will probably burn baby Sam first.

Mel: I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow

 

[NeoGiff]

Wait, really?

Spoiler

shamebell.gif me if this is a joke that I completely failed to recognize

No, I'm serious! She does subtitling for the show. That's the reason she's continuing to view it, while Elio has apparently bailed out.

 

[RobotChant]

will be so funny when book stannis burn shireen lol

It won't happen like it did in the show. Mel, Selyse and Shireen are still at castle black. If they get back together, the urgency of their situation won't be the same due to reasons.

 

[Steelyuhas]

No, I'm serious! She does subtitling for the show. That's the reason she's continuing to view it, while Elio has apparently bailed out.

...What


That's the weirdest thing, why on earth does HBO not have in-house people subtitling their own show...?

 

[Paganmoon]

...What


That's the weirdest thing, why on earth does HBO not have in-house people subtitling their own show...?

Sweden is a tiny market which they don't want to hire in house staff for probably.

 

[NeoGiff]

...What


That's the weirdest thing, why on earth does HBO not have in-house people subtitling their own show...?

This is the thing (and my intention isn't to instigate another tirade against Linda), she continues to earn money directly from the show, while simultaneously lampooning it. It's baffling.

 

[biosnake20]

Reddit detectives going to work.

This is the Godswood where Sansa and Ramsay got married.