Finn of Ooo
Member
Can we talk about the fact that it took an entire city of woodworkers and smiths to make a single scorpion but somehow the Iron Islanders put together a huge fleet complete with trebuchets and ammo in one episode?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
It was the tail end of the army. But yeah I get what you're saying.
Ocarina_117
Banned
Or cersei blowing up the equivalent of the westerosi vatican? Killing the small people's favourite queen (margery) and getting away with it scott free?
Or Jon Snow leaving the Nights Watch, with not a word from any other character. The first major thing Ned Stark did in the series was execute a deserter.
Given the state of westeros at the end of season 6, the invasion should have been a cake walk. Euron was introduced and utilised as a cheap way of levelling the playing field.
1) Jon rushes headlong into battle, ignoring the plan he had made beforehand. There's no punishment for his stupidity and is even made The King in the North.
2) Arya strolls stupidly through Bravos even though she knows she's being hunted. She gets stabbed repeatedly and falls into the river. She somehow survives, kills her assailant, and leaves the assassin's guild.
3) Brienne stares at a candle all season in the hopes of rescuing Sansa. After months of watching, she hears that Stannis is nearby, and leaves her post to get revenge. Brienne kills Stannis and then finds Sansa just before a gang of guards can re-capture her.
Do you see what I'm talking about? Before, events unfolded because of decisions characters made. There were consequences. Now it's just a matter of what the writers want. There are no more stakes to their choices.
-The show explains that no one knows for a fact that it was her, plus she's the one in power... Up to you to judge whether or not thats a good enough answer
-Jon died, so his watch ended. He didn't abandon the Nights Watch
Her son killed himself due to her actions.
"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death."
He died. Watch over.
Euron is a cheap plot device so far, I'll give you that.
Do the Northern Houses know he died?
Ocarina_117
Banned
There are plenty who know she did do it, she should face some repercussions from other houses.
Very few seem to know Jon died though, they seem to be keeping it a secret. The northern lords (not sure they know) and definitely cersei should have something to say.
Her son was a price to pay, I'll give you that. Just feel the people of kings landing should have something to say!
With Jon Snow, him dying is a good reason. But they've not disclosed it to the world. There should be people questioning him about it imho.
Why would cersei care about jons vows being broken when he's already committed treason by being crowned king? That's already a death sentence. Only reason she'd bring it up is for political strategy which the show has long abandoned.
Why would the northern lords care about his vows if king jons only purpose left is to fight white walkers anyway? He's essentially still lord commander of the nights watch. Just doing it with a "title" but it's believable that no one would care about that part of the vow when they're fighting back armies of zombies
Why would the northern lords care about his vows if king jons only purpose left is to fight white walkers anyway? He's essentially still lord commander of the nights watch. Just doing it with a "title" but it's believable that no one would care about that part of the vow when they're fighting back armies of zombies
We talk about Jon's resurrection and subsequent rise to King in the North every week. People (like me) question his path and other people offer answers. But none of those answers are present in the show. Did he die, thereby absolving him of his vow? Yes, but none of the Northern Houses know that he died. Is he leading the fight against the White Walkers? Yes, but none of them cared about the encroaching threat before the Battle of the Bastards and are still questioning him about the whole White Walker thing now. Do they just want a leader and he'll do? Maybe, but that doesn't answer why they have appointed a bastard deserter with bad military strategy to be their king.
It's a plot hole. It doesn't make the show bad or anything but it shows that by speeding through the narrative they are glossing over the messy parts that they can't be easily explained.
Um, here's the Night's Watch vow:
Hear my words and bear witness to my vow. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am ... the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
It's a plot hole. It doesn't make the show bad or anything but it shows that by speeding through the narrative they are glossing over the messy parts that they can't be easily explained.
Um, here's the Night's Watch vow:
Hear my words and bear witness to my vow. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am ... the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
I dunno, the impression I get is that most people don't really take the Night's Watch seriously nor do they care much about their vows. Ned Stark cared, but he's pretty special in that regard. Sam also broke his vows and brings a woman and child with him. No one in his family seemed shocked or disgusted. Until they find out she's one of "them" anyway. So racism is more widespread than people caring about the honor of vows it seems.
demosthenes
Member
Maybe hearing ned Starks son say an army of undead is coming is enough for them not to care. At least in the books ned was revered by everyone not named bolton.
Basically. It's been implied that the nights watch is a bit of a joke (to anyone not *in* the nights watch at least) since season 1 anyway.
And more-so the Show northern lords have been consistently less honorable and traditional than the book counterparts.
"Lead us until we vanquish the White Walkers" would have solved so much confusion. The Northern Lords are always shown as sticklers for rules and history so I don't see why they wouldn't care about the Night's Watch. Yes, the Southern Houses don't care nearly as much (we see that early on when King's Landing can only send convicts up North) but defending the Wall is stil important in the North. I mean, important houses have people who choose to be in the Night's Watch (Stark, Mormont) so I don't know why we're assuming they don't care about it.
I just want things explained in the show instead of forcing us to make up head cannon to explain their choices. As we've shown, there are reasons it can make sense, but the show didn't go down any of those paths.
I just want things explained in the show instead of forcing us to make up head cannon to explain their choices. As we've shown, there are reasons it can make sense, but the show didn't go down any of those paths.
Finn of Ooo
Member
People probably don't care about his vow because he normal rules have kind of fallen to the wayside in westeros. These are the same people who, for the most part, abandoned the starks when the boltons took over. At least in the show, power tends to hold more sway over people, even northmen, than vows.
bodyofanamerican
Member
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Eastwatch? That's what the episode called?
Isn't that on the Wall? Is it happening? Is it winter?
A king can release anyone from their vows, I believe. Stannis could release Jon from the Night's Watch and legitimize him as a Stark if Jon accepted (in the eyes of the people who view Stannis as king).
Based on the pictures I don't think your assumptions are correct. Unless we see more magical teleporting.
Cpt.Underpants
Member
Still no confirmation Jamie got captured by team dany?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah...why would the episode be named that though?
Like, if the episode takes place in the south, why would they name it Eastwatch given it's location? Could the pictures just be a red herring?
He died.
His watch is ended.
Hello.
edit:
but the Targ-faction doesn't know that. I guess they don't care. But it's more likely that D&D don't care, or rather are saving this bit of information for a big ol' dramatic reveal.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Didn't they already settle it a couple of seasons ago that since he technically died he was freed from his service in the NIghts Watch?
Eastwatch by the sea will definitely be the focus of the episode given the title, promo pics mean nothing other than it won't be the only location visited this episode
Can we please stop, this argument will go the same way it has gone the last 10 times we've had it in this thread.
I am sure we are going to see what happens at Eastwatch towards the end of the episode or something, Most of these pictures look like the aftermath of the last battle. Didnt Jon send the Wildlings to Eastwatch Castle?
Not everyone knows he died is my point.
Surely the lords of the north would have questioned serving a king brought back from the dead.
Ugh I hate when I take time off from OT topics and come back after shit storms. I didn't know this was a sore subject.
Because all the northmen just got free from a sadistic murderer. I don't think they'd give Jon much grief if he was the Lord of Light.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah. I hope it's like the last episode where there's a 20-30 minute focus on the south and then the rest of the episode is focused on Eastwatch.
I guess I missed this part? Didnt realize they were headed to the wall... Why are they again? I have no idea what they are doing...
In episode 2 Jon sends them there because he believes the Others will attack it.
I know why the wildings are headed there but the post said the brotherhood was headed to the wall... huh?
I never really thought too hard about it, but the answer seems to be a vague maybe, maybe not? GRRM himself weighed in.
https://movies.stackexchange.com/qu...ase-a-man-of-the-nights-watch-from-their-vows
I forgot all about that. Been so long since I have read any of the books....
i think technically the nights watch is supposed to be independent even from kings and queens, and therefore even a king would not be able to release someone from their vows. this independence from the seven kingdoms was a big deal early on in the series but obviously changed over time
i've personally always taken stannis' offer as yet another example of the ongoing theme of "Honor is important, until it isn't"
If anything, the defense of Castle Black and ruining their strat for BOTB puts him neutral territory. And honestly, I feel people gave Jon too much shit for that charge.
The Boltons colluded with the Freys and Lannisters for the Red Wedding. The Lannisters/Joffrey are responsible for Ned's death. Ramsay in particular repeatedly raped Sansa and killed Rickon right in front of him. Boltons were either allied with or the direct cause of all of the Stark's suffering. Cut him some slack.
Plus couldn't you say that...Jon could fuck up your strat and still win? That's gotta count for something XD.
Watch the scene of the Hound looking into the fire again.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Stannis' point as a character is his contrast to Ned Stark, who would actually follow the rules and have honor, and Stannis who hides behind them when its convenient. Ironically probably because he resented Robert so much he wants to prove himself a better man than him.
The Artisan
Member
Are you sure it was HBO's choice to do a season 8 and not the writers'?
If HBO is pulling the strings surely they could tell that the show would benefit from an extra $50 million for the last 2 seasons...
As long as another army saves his ass.
Well I can't say. I've said before Jon getting so easily crowned King in the North was convenient. He didn't even do anything of note during the battle, he kind of fucked up majorly. It was the Vale that saved the day.
Hmm, that may be right. I was probably giving Stannis too much authority since Kings can release Kingsguard from their vows, but the NW is independent from the Crown.
