Do televisions treat 480p scaling via HDMI differently than they do with component sources? Just curious, I thought the scaling algorithm was determined by source resolution rather than input type
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
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Do televisions treat 480p scaling via HDMI differently than they do with component sources? Just curious, I thought the scaling algorithm was determined by source resolution rather than input type
Yeh I have 2x too but with that I mostly love the frame rate! It's one of the first games I imported since it never came out here.
Visually it isn't a patch on SC2 though.
NormalFish
Banned
I'm pretty sure there are some PS2/Xbox games that render at higher resolution but I haven't personally tested. Can't Gran Turismo 4 run at 1080i?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's 100% right.
I don't know why you're comparing a 480p signal on a Wii to a 480p signal on a Wii U. That doesn't show the "extra black bars" he was talking about.
At 1080p output, the Wii U is line doubling the Wii's 480p signal to 960p, which introduces black bars on the top and bottom (and sides) of the 1080 image which are not there if you input a 480p signal to your TV and let it upscale (but it's more pixel accurate than the usual imperfect upscale from 480p > 1080p)
I believe it's much like the Smart2x mode on the XRGB mini, which also leaves black space around the image.
D.Lo
Member
Its higher than SD, but isn't even 960x720 (4:3 720p). I think it was 800X600 internal rendering resolution, of course scaled to 960x720 output.
Keep in mind a lot of PS360 games did this too, Call of Duty games were 1024x600 (but in widescreen of course).
So yes it is higher, and is the highest internal rendering resolution game on the console I believe. But not really 720p.
See the last page. It outputs at 1080i, but it's really smoke and mirrors, 500x540 with the image split in half and pixel doubled. It's lying to your TV at the output stage basically, it's rendered at sub-SD.
I tried it, but what D.Lo said is correct.
NormalFish
Banned
...huh. How odd. Is this a technical limitation of the consoles? if they had a game with very low requirements could they hypothetically output 720p via component or something?
It could, but seeing how there's not that many 480p games on the PS2 I'll doubt it could handle 720p well.
Ahhh... Well speaking for myself, I'm doing exactly that. Sending 480p to my 1080p TV, and I was also sending it the same content upscaled by the WiiU... The black borders were there in both cases. The Wii also did this on my older set.
I don't see why they would other than adjusting for possibly different color codes. My comment was in comparison to letting the WiiU upscale or rather sending my TV an already processed, non 480p signal via HDMI.
Yeh, I'm aware of all the smoke and mirrors crap even on PS360. The end result to my eyes is very pleasing though. I'm just talking about SC2 though, compared to other games where the output signal is 480p (and my TVs upscaler is pretty amazing).
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Some TVs do. I know that, for example, "medium" sharpness is different on my TV depending on whether I'm using HDMI or component.
You're still not correct. I busted out the capture card just for this.
Wii:
http://www.sixfortyfive.com/temp/wiiu_upscale/galaxy2_wii.png
Wii U:
http://www.sixfortyfive.com/temp/wiiu_upscale/galaxy2_wiiu_480.png
http://www.sixfortyfive.com/temp/wiiu_upscale/galaxy2_wiiu_720.png
http://www.sixfortyfive.com/temp/wiiu_upscale/smg1080p.png
What's weird, though, is that the borders are less prominent at 1080p, not more. I actually wasn't expecting this. I thought they'd be the same.
The 480p and 720p pictures are old, though. Maybe the scaling engine changed, although I haven't checked lower resolutions to see for sure.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Then what is the Wii U doing to the Wii image? Because it's been assured to me in a number of places that it's a line doubler.
I think what could be happening is that when you capture the device at 480, it is also line doubling and adding bars.
Certainly, if you play 480p Wii on most HDTVs, there are no bars. Any such bars are introduced by scalers of some sort or another.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Boco, pls. What kind of chump do you take me for?
All of those images are captured at the precise resolution that the console is outputting (480p for Wii; 480p, 720p, and 1080p for Wii U, matching whatever the Wii U is set to). The capture hardware isn't scaling or adding anything.
The Wii has borders in some (not all) games; the bold line is incorrect. If you're not seeing them, it's because your TV's overscan is stretching the image and covering them up, same as it does for most other SD consoles.
they're wrong. the Wii U does nothing to the Wii image. it's the same pixels.
the main issue is that, since Wii lacks an HDMI output, TVs never treat it the same as how they treat a Wii U signal. also, since Wii U is HD, the TV treats it differently even if both consoles use the same Component cable.
i can confirm because i get the same kind of pics as Sixtyfortyfive when i capture from my Wii and Wii U. the black bars look just like that.
also, the black bars become visible on TV when i use the FM since the TV is recognizing it as HD with that.
also, some games like Kirby's Epic Yarn are actually free of these borders. that one stuck out when i recorded it.
other games like F-Zero GX and SSBM have bigger than normal black bars.
the main issue is that, since Wii lacks an HDMI output, TVs never treat it the same as how they treat a Wii U signal. also, since Wii U is HD, the TV treats it differently even if both consoles use the same Component cable.
i can confirm because i get the same kind of pics as Sixtyfortyfive when i capture from my Wii and Wii U. the black bars look just like that.
also, the black bars become visible on TV when i use the FM since the TV is recognizing it as HD with that.
also, some games like Kirby's Epic Yarn are actually free of these borders. that one stuck out when i recorded it.
other games like F-Zero GX and SSBM have bigger than normal black bars.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Well, technically, it has to be doing something to them when it's outputting at greater than 480p.
But it's certainly not "line-doubling" them and adding larger borders.
i went and cut the black bars from a 1080p capture of the Wii menu in Wii Mode from Wii U and the resolution was...
1852x1039
that's far from the 960p it supposedly outputs, hm?
well, i meant that it is not adding to the image.
1852x1039
that's far from the 960p it supposedly outputs, hm?
well, i meant that it is not adding to the image.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I take the point that the black bars are there on Wii games no matter what.
But that same overscan will not cover black bars up in Wii mode on Wii U.
That's what people are talking about when they say Wii games on Wii U have borders.
If you are saying the reason for that is because of TVs treating overscan different on SD vs HD signals, maybe that is so.
Then I blame the multiple people who have insisted that fact to me with as much intensity as you are arguing now. If it's misinformation, draw the line here, because that belief is very much out there.
NormalFish
Banned
perhaps it's sub native wii games being scaled to 1080p without even scaling (2x)? Honestly this whole thing is kind of baffling to me. Seems really odd.
I don't understand why wii games would have borders to begin with.
isn't fill rate one thing that takes away resources? i recall that the reason RE4 on GC had a 16:9 picture in a 4:3 frame was because it allowed them to have more graphical resosurces in the rendered area.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
This is the norm for SD consoles. It's not in every game but it's common.
Take a direct capture of any Genesis game and you'll see a color-changing border that you'd never see on your average SDTV (or HDTV with forced overscan).
When you play Wii games on Wii U, that border is still present. The system doesn't change anything. If you notice a difference, it's due to the way your TV is configured to handle it.
NormalFish
Banned
Honestly couldn't say. I didn't even know the 16:9 ps2 games weren't actually full 16:9 until recently, so I'm definitely no expert lol.
Sidenote: I am really anxious to see what FBX can do with the new FM firmware. His settings for 480i/480p are really good, so any improvement is welcome. Also looking forward to downloading his profiles.
So I guess the obvious follow up, then, is "why?" Are these games with borders just sub-480p or is there something to this that I'm missing?
D.Lo
Member
Many SD games had/have borders because they were designed for CRTs, which almost universally overscan to varying degrees. UI elements like HUDs had to be in from the edge or some TVs wouldn't show them.
Certain games were developed knowing almost nobody would be seeing the edges of the frame. Lots of NES games have glitches that show in the area expected to be cropped, for example.
Some developers rendered in a smaller window to get better performance out of the game, once again knowing the borders would be cropped away on CRTs.
The Wii assumes overscan of like 5-10%.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
The video signal transmitted from the console is technically 480p, but not all of the visible area is filled. It's mostly due to the principles of overscan and "TV safe area," but I'm sure there's a side-benefit on the hardware side of having to render fewer pixels.
Correct. This is also why, until recently, console manufacturers still enforced overscan guidelines like this.
Street Fighter IV has two default UI configurations: Arcade and Console. The original Arcade settings have the HUD pushed further toward the edge of the screen, but since those would almost assuredly be cut-off by overscan on many TVs, the Console default pushes them further toward the center.
And fewer things were more irritating to me growing up than having to play on a CRT TV that still cut off important UI elements.
NormalFish
Banned
Alright, this makes sense. I honestly dislike using CRTs in general so I wasn't even thinking about them. Good info.
I'm surprised that the Wii would compensate for overscan though given when it was released. That system was behind the times in more ways than I had thought. Fortunately it's still got some quality games on it.
ooh boy, so that basically means that trying to get 1:1 pixels with Smart x2 is useless because the source is already a mess of rescaled images?
welp.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If you think the Wii was behind the times, then what are we to make of all these poor saps coming to grips with overscan several more years after fixed-pixel displays became commonplace?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=501275
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=505972
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=721352
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=739555
D.Lo
Member
As Six mentions above, even the PS3 and 360 assumed overscan, and most HDTVs have overscan as default. Even though it makes far, far less sense on fixed pixel displays than it does on CRTs.
So the Wii was doing the logical thing, especially as when it was released SDTVs were in fact still the norm. It was only a couple of years later that HDTV penetration even passed 50%.
This does mean many 480p games were less than 640x480. Though many were not.
Also, you're likely in the wrong thread if you 'dislike CRTs'
Mountains of Mars
Member
Hey PVM Gaf, I've been having issues with my PVM and I'm not sure if its broken or just a sync issue. The screen is stuck with H/V delay on and holding down some of the buttons reverts it back to normal, but with 16:9 on with no way to go to 4:3, and sometimes stuck in monochrome. About half of the buttons are lit up but don't work as they should. Any help is appreciated.
Scanlines are uneven in thickness. The brighter the pixel, the larger the phosphor spot, the thicker the scanline is. You can see the effect on this image, posted by a gaffer a long time ago. This example is extreme as it comes from a professional monitor with a very high line density: on a normal CRT TV with RGB, the brightest spots are touching vertically, even though you can still discern the two scanlines as there is still a difference in brightness. There is also the differences between different aperture grids, but I won't delve into that.
More examples in this thread. Be careful as there are both CRT and emulated screenshots.
Very interesting information. This has been me on this page:
I know, right? Great discussion. Thanks to everyone who contributed.
If you want to get rid of the "underscanning" when playing Wii games on Wii U, you could probably do so in your HDTV's settings. There's usually a mode that allows you to overscan by 5% or 10% (depending on your set) to get rid of the garbage that sometimes occurs on the edges of a broadcast. If not, you can also try to overscan the image slightly by going into settings in the Wii U and adjusting screen size to be slighly larger than your screen.
As for the best way to play Wii games on Wii U hardware, I've been switching my Wii U to 480p then going into Wii mode to play Xenoblade. My HDTV seems to scale 480p better than the Wii U, even via HDMI.
But I think the colors appear slighly duller that way..? (o_0)
Edit: Nevermind, I switched it back to 1080p. There's artifacts either way and I think I prefer the sharper picture... even if it's a bit too sharp. Boy I really need to find a CRT for my 480p games soon. These jags ain't doing it for me and Xenoblade deserves better.
NormalFish
Banned
I want to like crts but can't do the capacitor squeel. Instant migraine. I love me some upscalers thoughAs Six mentions above, even the PS3 and 360 assumed overscan, and most HDTVs have overscan as default. Even though it makes far, far less sense on fixed pixel displays than it does on CRTs.
So the Wii was doing the logical thing, especially as when it was released SDTVs were in fact still the norm. It was only a couple of years later that HDTV penetration even passed 50%.
This does mean many 480p games were less than 640x480. Though many were not.
Also, you're likely in the wrong thread if you 'dislike CRTs'
Huggers
Member
Also, you're likely in the wrong thread if you 'dislike CRTs'
Haha very much this
Anyway. On the hunt for my second PVM/BVM. The BVM I have currently has 800 lines. I'm after one with 1000 lines. Anyone know the model number(s) I need to look out for?
drhankmccoyphd
Member
What exactly is the benefit of more lines?
GayForMaster
Banned
That thing takes RGB...? Nice. Can you pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease test an N64 through RGB on it and post the results?
Sharper, far more detailed picture and thicker scanlines. The one with more lines is on the left:
Trust me when I say that the effect as to why it's good to have thicker scanlines is very difficult to capture on camera. But in person, it just looks really cool.
Huggers
Member
Yep. Should say though that 800 lines look fucking insane. A lot of Broadcast monitors have 600. I'm just greedy
Yea, I had one with 750 lines and everything just sparkled in a way that made my 600 line set look ordinary in comparison. A lot of lines makes the picture look totally fucking insane (in a good way)... like it looks better than any consumer-grade display you've ever seen by a landslide..
I can't imagine what an 800 line or even a 1000 line set would be like at a decent size.
I can't imagine what an 800 line or even a 1000 line set would be like at a decent size.
Huggers
Member
Yeah the 800 line one I have blows me away every time I use it. Another 200 lines will surely be incredible. I'll track one down soon for sure.
And yeah, I have a top of the line consumer CRT and seriously, it looks like shit next to the Broadcast monitor
GayForMaster
Banned
Does the Sony PVM 20L5 do 800 lines?
Yes, the PVM 20l5 has 800 lines.
GayForMaster
Banned
Ah I see.
Lizard with a ladder
learnin' with the blacks!
Anyone with a crt using s-video cables for their old consoles? I'm using composite right now and wondering how much better they'll look with s-video.
Like... a shit ton better. Composite to S-Video is a huge jump.
S-video is vastly superior to composite. Yes, when the console supports it, go for it!!!
I actually use s-video on my PVM for some consoles, to save up space on my SCART switch. On some consoles the difference between s-video and RGB is really minimal.
Here's a video of a comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJJlVI4IuJs
I think the benefit is definitely noticable and I used S-Video cables for my N64/SNES on a CRT for a long time.
Beware though, finding "high quality" S-Video cables are difficult, as you'll get the infamous "checkerboard" pattern across your image:
http://www.micro-64.com/features/svideoarticle/PDcomparison.png
Many people say this is due to "improper shielding" but even with my Monster S-Video cables which are regarded as some of the best around, I got this pattern on my screen. Even more interesting, when I switched to RGB SCART cables, I still got this pattern on my screen. I tried everything from changing my power supply to using a different system.
I finally fixed it by using "csync" RGB cables, so I wonder if that checkerboarding is caused by the way sync is wired through S-Video cables.
Yeah, I played a looooooooooot of GT4 when I got my first 720p monitor. I noticed the picture was nicer when in 480p compared to 480i. Then it left me scratching my head when higher resolutions did absolutely nothing...
Yeah if you read a few posts back you'll see that I've been playing around with combinations too. So far I think my TV's internal scaler is superior with progressive content from HDMI. It's kinda miraculous even... The clear digital signal is a significant boost, but the upscale from my TV is virtually free of artifacts and it has less Jaggies than the same games coming from the Wii's component output. The image is a bit softer than the Framemeister or the WiiU in 1080p, but they have many artifacts.
Remember how Twilight Princess was a goddam Jag-fest? Well it now looks more under control on my set! A fucking miracle! lol
Finally, I turn on the preset overscan on my set and it fits the image in perfect vertically, but the black borders are still present on the left and right edges. I can set my own overscan using my TV's adjustable zoom, but I don't want to cut off the top and bottom of the image. So the preset overscan is best for me.
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