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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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L

Lizard with a ladder

learnin' with the blacks!
Peltz said:
Like... a shit ton better. Composite to S-Video is a huge jump.
Click to expand...

antibolo said:
S-video is vastly superior to composite. Yes, when the console supports it, go for it!!!

I actually use s-video on my PVM for some consoles, to save up space on my SCART switch. On some consoles the difference between s-video and RGB is really minimal.
Click to expand...

Rongolian said:
Here's a video of a comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJJlVI4IuJs

I think the benefit is definitely noticable and I used S-Video cables for my N64/SNES on a CRT for a long time.

Beware though, finding "high quality" S-Video cables are difficult, as you'll get the infamous "checkerboard" pattern across your image:

http://www.micro-64.com/features/svideoarticle/PDcomparison.png

Many people say this is due to "improper shielding" but even with my Monster S-Video cables which are regarded as some of the best around, I got this pattern on my screen. Even more interesting, when I switched to RGB SCART cables, I still got this pattern on my screen. I tried everything from changing my power supply to using a different system.

I finally fixed it by using "csync" RGB cables, so I wonder if that checkerboarding is caused by the way sync is wired through S-Video cables.
Click to expand...

Alright, good to know. I'm going to upgrade the cables on the snes first. So I'm looking at some cables on ebay at the moment and came across these. Is this guy full of shit about the s-video cables that come with composite being garbage?

Ebay link
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
enjoyed the wii/wu talk, SHMUPs has me thinking it's time to update my XRGB firmware soon. grabbed a few system profiles on there (Genesis, SNES), anyone over here been working on any? id love to try different setups!
 
B

brainpann

Member
IrishNinja said:
enjoyed the wii/wu talk, SHMUPs has me thinking it's time to update my XRGB firmware soon. grabbed a few system profiles on there (Genesis, SNES), anyone over here been working on any? id love to try different setups!
Click to expand...


Anychance you can post a link to some offthe settings for dl?
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Alrighty put together a little package for my 480i preset including samples from a number of different games as well as usage instructions.

Link: http://a.pomf.se/pyjnap.zip

Planning to do the 240p and 480p PS2 profiles this weekend but the 480i one is the one I finished first so I figured I'd share it.

**Oh, couple things I forgot to mention. The preset is not perfect scaling by any means. If that's what you want use smart 2x cause everything else just reduces IQ. Also, there's a bit of noise in the sample images and I'm not sure where in the chain it was introduced (console, cable, XRGB, capture card).
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
^ I'm probably not messing with my FM tonight, but I appreciate your efforts!
 
I

Ivan Amiibo

Banned
NormalFish said:
Alrighty put together a little package for my 480i preset including samples from a number of different games as well as usage instructions.

Link: http://a.pomf.se/pyjnap.zip

Planning to do the 240p and 480p PS2 profiles this weekend but the 480i one is the one I finished first so I figured I'd share it.

**Oh, couple things I forgot to mention. The preset is not perfect scaling by any means. If that's what you want use smart 2x cause everything else just reduces IQ. Also, there's a bit of noise in the sample images and I'm not sure where in the chain it was introduced (console, cable, XRGB, capture card).
Click to expand...

Thanks!

Can't wait mess with the new firmware this weekend. i'm on a 720p plasma, so i'll probably have to find different settings than those. honestly, I don't have a real firm grasp on exactly what all the FM settings are doing and I just kind of wing it haha
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
NormalFish said:
I'm pretty sure there are some PS2/Xbox games that render at higher resolution but I haven't personally tested. Can't Gran Turismo 4 run at 1080i?
Click to expand...

The 2 Baldur's Gate games on PS2 render at an insanely impressive like almost 720p IIRC. It was like 12xx X 6xx I think? Was part of the reason it's been so hard to emulate iirc.
On a CRT in 480i, the only thing wrong with the picture is the freakin Interlacing. Otherwise it's pretty damn smooth and aliasing free..
 
TGO

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I got my PS2 connected via component, menus and anything static look great but the rest is blinding, is that's the best I can get without paying out loads.
Obviously the smooth option on PS3 did a lot more then I gave it credit for.
Also I'm in Pal land
Do those PS2 to hdmi make any difference.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
TGO said:
I got my PS2 connected via component, menus and anything static look great but the rest is blinding, is that's the best I can get without paying out loads.
Click to expand...

Make sure to enable progressive scan in games that support it. I'm pretty sure this is often activated via some kind of button code in several games.

Otherwise, you're at the mercy of your TV's deinterlacer.

TGO said:
Do those PS2 to hdmi make any difference.
Click to expand...

Without even knowing what this is, I am 100% sure that it is junk.
 
Y

Yes Boss!

Member
TGO said:
I got my PS2 connected via component, menus and anything static look great but the rest is blinding, is that's the best I can get without paying out loads.
Obviously the smooth option on PS3 did a lot more then I gave it credit for.
Also I'm in Pal land
Do those PS2 to hdmi make any difference.[/QUOTE

System is garbagy for image-quality. Does not do much right other than the few 240p games that look fantastic. It is always a struggle.
Click to expand...
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Yes Boss! said:
System is garbagy for image-quality. Does not do much right other than the few 240p games that look fantastic. It is always a struggle.
Click to expand...

yeah... I love my PS2 and I think the framemeister does a decent job, but the ps2 just is not all that great for picture quality.

Fortunately I finally ordered a sync-on-luma rgb cable so hopefully I'll be able to improve it marginally.
 
P

Peltz

Member
I'm sort of shocked to see so much negativity surrounding PS2's image quality. Is there a difference in the clarity of output between a Slim and an OG PS2? My slim looks pretty great, even at 480i (aka the bastard-res). PS1 output at 240p is also as clean as it gets.

Maybe I'm just not playing the same PS2 games as everyone else? I mostly use mine for the Katamari games.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Peltz said:
I'm sort of shocked to see so much negativity surrounding PS2's image quality. Is there a difference in the clarity of output between a Slim and an OG PS2? My slim looks pretty great, even at 480i (aka the bastard-res). PS1 output at 240p is also as clean as it gets.

Maybe I'm just not playing the same PS2 games as everyone else? I mostly use mine for the Katamari games.
Click to expand...

Certain games definitely look better than others. I think the real loss in image quality in that gen on the whole comes from more distant components of the scene. You lose a lot of detail due to the resolution that ends up looking like a bit of a blurry mess. Something like Windwaker (though I realize it isn't PS2) or katamari with a very clean art style don't suffer from this as much.

Also this:
sixteen-bit said:
I think people are just comparing PS2 against its contemporaries. DC and GC had nicer IQ.
Click to expand...
 
TGO

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Sixfortyfive said:
Make sure to enable progressive scan in games that support it. I'm pretty sure this is often activated via some kind of button code in several games.

Otherwise, you're at the mercy of your TV's deinterlacer.



Without even knowing what this is, I am 100% sure that it is junk.
Click to expand...
Its Triangle and X and I don't think dropping it down to 480p is gonna help much over the standard 576i
Although it may being progressive, I just don't remember it being this bad on my HDTV, although I did run it through my PS3 before which is sadly not an option.
Sony needs to update the PS4 with BC with 1080p rendering, I fear some of the old gems from the pre HD era are gonna be lost forever, especially in a playable form, unless you have a decent PC for emulation.
I find it embarrassing that my Xperia is my go to device for PSX games instead of the 4 Playstation.
 
T

televator

Member
Peltz said:
I'm sort of shocked to see so much negativity surrounding PS2's image quality. Is there a difference in the clarity of output between a Slim and an OG PS2? My slim looks pretty great, even at 480i (aka the bastard-res). PS1 output at 240p is also as clean as it gets.

Maybe I'm just not playing the same PS2 games as everyone else? I mostly use mine for the Katamari games.
Click to expand...

Considering that pretty much all games on DC and Xbox are 480p capable, a lot of GC games also having that option, both the DC and GC having notoriously clean video output even at the time, and no other consoles at the time using janky screen door and Vaseline filtering as heavily... Yeah the PS2 always had terrible PQ.
 
P

Peltz

Member
televator said:
Considering that pretty much all games on DC and Xbox are 480p capable, a lot of GC games also having that option, both the DC and GC having notoriously clean video output even at the time, and no other consoles at the time using janky screen door and Vaseline filtering as heavily... Yeah the PS2 always had terrible PQ.
Click to expand...

Makes sense I guess.

Also, I really need to pick up more PS2 games. I got PS2 fairly recently since I was mostly into Xbox/GCN that gen. I missed out on some great games. But that's a topic for another thread.
 
M

Mercutio

Member
televator said:
Considering that pretty much all games on DC and Xbox are 480p capable, a lot of GC games also having that option, both the DC and GC having notoriously clean video output even at the time, and no other consoles at the time using janky screen door and Vaseline filtering as heavily... Yeah the PS2 always had terrible PQ.
Click to expand...

The PS2 should be remembered for its games, not for its hardware. I always held a grudge against it for being more popular than the Gamecube and XBox, but having way worse graphical capabilities.
 
T

televator

Member
Mercutio said:
The PS2 should be remembered for its games, not for its hardware. I always held a grudge against it for being more popular than the Gamecube and XBox, but having way worse graphical capabilities.
Click to expand...

Uhh... The PS2 is my personal number 1 system of all time because it has a monumental amount of great games. I was one of the folks waaaaay back then who held a grunge against it because I blamed it for the Dreamcast's demise. Yet it completely won me over by the end of that gen. That doesn't make the terrible picture quality go away though. That's just a fact and I'll remember it so. Sorry, Merc, but you can't tell me how to remember it. PS2 is great and it has crappy picture.

Edit: I'd also like to expand the talk of picture analysis to GC games since I'm in the middle of looking at them purely in digital form over HDMI. It really highlights some artifacts that weren't really visible back then when the system was current. The GC had like 16 bit color I believe. It really is a strange limitation. It leads to inherent picture anomalies like color dithering and banding. What this looks like is that colors sorta "dance" and things aren't really a solid color. It's more like an illusion that creates a certain shade of color. There are also bands on large monochrome areas like skies.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
televator said:
Uhh... The PS2 is my personal number 1 system of all time because it has a monumental amount of great games. I was one of the folks waaaaay back then who held a grunge against it because I blamed it for the Dreamcast's demise. Yet it completely won me over by the end of that gen. That doesn't make the terrible picture quality go away though. That's just a fact and I'll remember it so. Sorry, Merc, but you can't tell me how to remember it. PS2 is great and it has crappy picture.
Click to expand...
Yup, pretty much. The PS2 did a lot of things right and has one of the best libraries ever. It's just that the IQ is piss poor for much of its library. Tough time for IQ in general, tbh.
 
TGO

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
What Resolution is Persona 4?
Just got a copy despite already having P4Golden and I think it looks better then that through Playstation TV.
Definitely the best PQ game on PS2 so far.
Funny you guys mention PQ of other consoles, I always thought the GCN was running at a lower resolution then the rest due to how soft the image was.
 
H

HTupolev

Member
NormalFish said:
Tough time for IQ in general, tbh.
Click to expand...
Really? The console space saw massive improvements in filtering and the largest generational leap in resolution ever. PC GPUs began to overcome buffer size limits, allowing for reasonable play at screen resolutions that are still decent today, and for efficient use of techniques like MSAA.

And of course we were still using CRTs, so static contrast and black levels were still good.

Sixth gen was a glorious time for IQ.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
TGO said:
What Resolution is Persona 4?
Just got a copy despite already having P4Golden and I think it looks better then that through Playstation TV.
Definitely the best PQ game on PS2 so far.
Click to expand...

it should be a 480i signal. the Vita game is subnative so it looks like a blurry mess, tbh. UI is way nicer in Golden, though.
 
TGO

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
NormalFish said:
it should be a 480i signal. the Vita game is subnative so it looks like a blurry mess, tbh. UI is way nicer in Golden, though.
Click to expand...
Probably internally, but its 720-576 output.
I'm not sure how that works when running on a pal system.
 
P

Peltz

Member
HTupolev said:
Really? The console space saw massive improvements in filtering and the largest generational leap in resolution ever. PC GPUs began to overcome buffer size limits, allowing for reasonable play at screen resolutions that are still decent today, and for efficient use of techniques like MSAA.

And of course we were still using CRTs, so static contrast and black levels were still good.

Sixth gen was a glorious time for IQ.
Click to expand...

Yea, but there is no single display to optimally handle all content from that gen. It's like hitting a moving target. Some games are widescreen, some aren't. DC uses VGA, the others use Component, but PS2 is best with SCART. Then you also had a few console games that were 720p as well. Then a few games also had a 240p mode.

How many displays did you need to own back then if you owned all of the consoles didn't want to compromise on IQ? To me, that generation represents an awkward transitional period.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Finished my FM preset for 240p PSX games via the PS2. This is using the new 1080p scanlines. They could probably be tweaked a bit but if you want fat scanlines you're still better off using 720p.

Link: http://a.pomf.se/jctyou.zip

Also includes installation/usage instructions, samples, as well as firebrandx's preset as detailed on his website. It's probably got slightly more accurate scaling but is incompatible with scanlines. The samples are using my preset, not his.
 
A

antibolo

Banned
Cross-posting pics I took for FigureGAF, my Danganronpa figures now decorating the top of my PVM. Some delicious Neo Geo scanlines can be seen so why the hell not post them here as well.

antibolo1429818439.jpeg
antibolo1429818441.jpeg
Click to expand...
 
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