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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Well the SNES cable I use is one from that classic game accessories seller on Ebay from awhile back (SCART cable with stereo audio plugs) and use that to a converter to plug to the TV via component.

In other words, i'm not sure lol.

I'm sure there is a way to check what sync it is, but I don't know it. All my knowledge is pilfered from other people online.

Can also check your emalis from back when you ordered it to find the original listing. That seller explains what her cables are pretty clearly.

Hi chaps. I'm after a multi scart switch. I have 8 consoles. All RGB and my current scart switch only accepts 3 inputs. Any not overly expensive options you know of? Should I buy another of what I have and daisy chain them?

You can get in line for the custom one being made that has exactly 8 inputs. And by that I mean you can't since he stopped taking preorders a while back.
 

Madao

Member
urgh i think i'm gonna get a headache.

there was a CRT VGA monitor stored somewhere in my house for a while and everyone looked it as a piece of junk that no one bothered to throw away. now i just got curious to see how it'd fare with the stuff i know now and the thing is nowhere to be found.

we basically threw away treasure.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
Read the comparison linked in the OP. Fudoh does a good job at narrowing down the comparison criteria.

I would personally never buy a Framemeister for any price. I am adamant in my belief that an upscaler built specifically for gaming should never have more than 1 frame of lag, but other people tend to not be as picky.

Thanks, it was a good read.
 

televator

Member
urgh i think i'm gonna get a headache.

there was a CRT VGA monitor stored somewhere in my house for a while and everyone looked it as a piece of junk that no one bothered to throw away. now i just got curious to see how it'd fare with the stuff i know now and the thing is nowhere to be found.

we basically threw away treasure.

Still not as bad as me as an adult not realizing that I really should have asked my older cousin if he still had his CIB Master System collection that I used to play when I visited them in grade school. I should have asked as soon as I started getting into collecting a few years ago... he said it was stored until recently... its basically unaccounted for now... No one knows where it is or if it got sold by someone in the family... or tossed out. Oh gawd, anything but that!!!!
 

Teknoman

Member
I'm sure there is a way to check what sync it is, but I don't know it. All my knowledge is pilfered from other people online.

Can also check your emalis from back when you ordered it to find the original listing. That seller explains what her cables are pretty clearly.



You can get in line for the custom one being made that has exactly 8 inputs. And by that I mean you can't since he stopped taking preorders a while back.

Yeah she seems to label her cables with luma or csync now, but...being back in 2013 I deleted the email long ago lol. Still have the order listed on ebay of course, but it just says "Super Nintendo stereo RGB SCARwith RCA out for US model SNES". I'll just wait till he replies to see whats up.

On that note, yup, definitely going with 64 first. Looking at screens (and seeing Genesis in person) it seems like these two systems benefit from it the most as far as absolute clarity goes.
 

Huggers

Member
Still not as bad as me as an adult not realizing that I really should have asked my older cousin if he still had his CIB Master System collection that I used to play when I visited them in grade school. I should have asked as soon as I started getting into collecting a few years ago... he said it was stored until recently... its basically unaccounted for now... No one knows where it is or if it got sold by someone in the family... or tossed out. Oh gawd, anything but that!!!!

Few years back I threw away a mint boxed complete copy of Super Castlevania IV. One of the stupidest things I've ever done!
 
Yeah I've seen that dudes work before. Seems he's never taking orders. Plus $120 plus shipping isn't in the 'not overly expensive' bracket for me. Not saying his price is unfair, just more than I want to pay. Especially when the one I have right now cost a tenner

On the last page he mentions that it's over $120 now with the additional parts and work done on it.
It's gonna be hard to find something good for that cheap though. Pretty sure my bandridge switch was around $30 or something, and can't even find them online anymore.
 

televator

Member
Few years back I threw away a mint boxed complete copy of Super Castlevania IV. One of the stupidest things I've ever done!

Sorry, but
110882-darkman-why-why-why-why-gif-Im-dExo.gif
 
Yeah she seems to label her cables with luma or csync now, but...being back in 2013 I deleted the email long ago lol. Still have the order listed on ebay of course, but it just says "Super Nintendo stereo RGB SCARwith RCA out for US model SNES". I'll just wait till he replies to see whats up.

On that note, yup, definitely going with 64 first. Looking at screens (and seeing Genesis in person) it seems like these two systems benefit from it the most as far as absolute clarity goes.

Also helps that it will be considerably cheaper then a NES to have RGB modded.
 

Madao

Member
well, the fact the CRT monitor wouldn't have been good unless i had an XRGB 3 too kinda reduces the bad feel about losing the monitor.

it would have been something to consider before i got the mini but that was close to 2 years ago.
 

Huggers

Member
On the last page he mentions that it's over $120 now with the additional parts and work done on it.
It's gonna be hard to find something good for that cheap though. Pretty sure my bandridge switch was around $30 or something, and can't even find them online anymore.

Yeah I think I'm going to get another of what I have and daisy chain them. The picture quality is unaffected to my eye with it. Little bit cumbersome to have two but I cba to sit in a waiting list


Sorry, but
110882-darkman-why-why-why-why-gif-Im-dExo.gif

Haha I know man. Awful. Worse still it is one of my all time favourites. I have since re-bought it for silly money
 

Peltz

Member
well, the fact the CRT monitor wouldn't have been good unless i had an XRGB 3 too kinda reduces the bad feel about losing the monitor.

it would have been something to consider before i got the mini but that was close to 2 years ago.
Would have been perfect for Dreamcast though.
 

fvng

Member
I mean, don't get me wrong... I wouldn't waste my time or money on anything else. If you intend to play 240p games on an HDTV, you really should own a Framemeister.

It's just not the end-all-be-all like a PVM 20L5 would be.

I’m realizing it’s kind of a waste of money for me, like you said my tv does already good job of processing the image, my connection is via component cables which secures great quality in itself. I can see how it can be useful for snes and previous console generations, but for ps2 it makes less sense
 

D.Lo

Member
Still not as bad as me as an adult not realizing that I really should have asked my older cousin if he still had his CIB Master System collection that I used to play when I visited them in grade school. I should have asked as soon as I started getting into collecting a few years ago... he said it was stored until recently... its basically unaccounted for now... No one knows where it is or if it got sold by someone in the family... or tossed out. Oh gawd, anything but that!!!!
About a year ago, I found a boxed, complete Sega Master System in a garbage bin in an alley behind my house with some other toys (like a train set).

It needed a little bit of restoration, as it had been in the polystyrene a long time and the controller cords had collected some of it. But an hour of cleaning and I had a mint, boxed, working Master System.
 
I’m realizing it’s kind of a waste of money for me, like you said my tv does already good job of processing the image, my connection is via component cables which secures great quality in itself. I can see how it can be useful for snes and previous console generations, but for ps2 it makes less sense

yeah, PS2 doesn't have many 240p games

Ico, M2's Sega Ages 2500, Megaman X Collection, and Arika's Cave ports are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.

FM is best value for playing Gen5 and older
 
I'm somewhat ashamed to say that i took the plunge and bought a pvm 20l5 on ebay...for an ebay kind of price. But I justify it to myself by the fact that it will get solid use, it's rare, and it's a quality monitor. Plus, i can pay over the course of a few months with paypal credit lol.

Can anyone suggest a good Scart switcher, though? I don't want to keep unplugging the console every time i want to switch.
 

Peltz

Member
I'm somewhat ashamed to say that i took the plunge and bought a pvm 20l5 on ebay...for an ebay kind of price. But I justify it to myself by the fact that it will get solid use, it's rare, and it's a quality monitor. Plus, i can pay over the course of a few months with paypal credit lol.

Can anyone suggest a good Scart switcher, though? I don't want to keep unplugging the console every time i want to switch.

Don't be ashamed. I may do the same thing some day.

Make sure that they ship freight to you. You don't want any standard shipping because it'll get damaged in transit. We've had a lot of horror stories in this thread about damaged CRTs from improper packing/transit. They seem to get damaged more often than not because most sellers no longer know how to pack CRTs properly.
 
Make sure that they ship freight to you. You don't want any standard shipping because it'll get damaged in transit.

Don't be ashamed. I may do the same thing some day.

This. One of the biggest reasons why people try to get them locally is how much of a pain it is to ship them undamaged.

Good luck with it being good too.
 

Mercutio

Member
yeah, PS2 doesn't have many 240p games

Ico, M2's Sega Ages 2500, Megaman X Collection, and Arika's Cave ports are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.

FM is best value for playing Gen5 and older

I thought only the Gamecube version of MegaMan X collection ran in 240p?
 

antibolo

Banned
Paypal offers credit? Their rates must be absolute shit.

And yeah be careful with shipping. Go get it in person if that's a possibility.
 
Unfortunatley pickup isnt possible..california to Ny shipping. But i looked through seller feedback history, lots of comments on quality packing, plus reassurance from the seller that it will come damage free. I believe i'm covered in the event it arrives damaged, right? Yeah I was surpised about the paypal credit as well, wouldn't normally use it for anything, but i've been seriously fiending for a good PVM. Right now this seems like the only feasible way for me to acquire one.
 

Peltz

Member
Unfortunatley pickup isnt possible..california to Ny shipping. But i looked through seller feedback history, lots of comments on quality packing, plus reassurance from the seller that it will come damage free. I believe i'm covered in the event it arrives damaged, right? Yeah I was surpised about the paypal credit as well, wouldn't normally use it for anything, but i've been seriously fiending for a good PVM. Right now this seems like the only feasible way for me to acquire one.

Let us know how it looks when you receive it. Pics please :)
 

fvng

Member
yeah, PS2 doesn't have many 240p games

Ico, M2's Sega Ages 2500, Megaman X Collection, and Arika's Cave ports are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.

FM is best value for playing Gen5 and older

Got it, then this doesn't serve any purpose for me. I'm wondering if a device will eventually come out that will do anti aliasing for ps2, etc.
 

Peltz

Member
I was playing Xenoblade on my Wii U this morning and mirroring the main screen on the Gamepad which appeared to have nearly no jags. Is the Gamepad true 480p native? It seems like it may be... but something feels.. off?

In my gut, I feel as if the game is being rendered in a slightly higher resolution than 480p then scaled back down to the Gamepad's native resolution if that makes any sense.

So is Xenoblade's original resolution 854 x 480 or is it slightly higher?

Also, now that I'm focused on this topic... are games truly in higher quality in 4:3 mode on Wii and/or OG Xbox rather than 16:9 as Madao claimed a few pages back?

480p is 640×480 in 4:3, and 853.33×480 in 16:9 (unscaled) . So shouldn't there be no quality loss in true widescreen 480p games?
 
I was playing Xenoblade on my Wii U this morning and mirroring the main screen on the Gamepad which appeared to have nearly no jags. Is the Gamepad true 480p native? It seems like it may be... but something feels.. off?

In my gut, I feel as if the game is being rendered in a slightly higher resolution than 480p then scaled back down to the Gamepad's native resolution if that makes any sense.

So is Xenoblade's original resolution 854 x 480 or is it slightly higher?

Also, now that I'm focused on this topic... are games truly in higher quality in 4:3 mode on Wii and/or OG Xbox rather than 16:9 as Madao claimed a few pages back?

480p is 640×480 in 4:3, and 853.33×480 in 16:9 (unscaled) . So shouldn't there be no quality loss in true widescreen 480p games?

I think it depends on the game. Some games certainly seem to be comparable IQ at 4:3 or 16:9. I think there might be some slight distortion but for the most part I was happy with how Xenoblade/SkywardSword looked widescreen when I tested.
 

D.Lo

Member
I believe the best any Wii game does is 720x480. And most are still just 640x480 (or less, usually 640x448).

So no 16:9 games on the Wii will have as good pixel density as the 4:3 setting.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I was playing Xenoblade on my Wii U this morning and mirroring the main screen on the Gamepad which appeared to have nearly no jags. Is the Gamepad true 480p native? It seems like it may be... but something feels.. off?

In my gut, I feel as if the game is being rendered in a slightly higher resolution than 480p then scaled back down to the Gamepad's native resolution if that makes any sense.

So is Xenoblade's original resolution 854 x 480 or is it slightly higher?

Also, now that I'm focused on this topic... are games truly in higher quality in 4:3 mode on Wii and/or OG Xbox rather than 16:9 as Madao claimed a few pages back?

480p is 640×480 in 4:3, and 853.33×480 in 16:9 (unscaled) . So shouldn't there be no quality loss in true widescreen 480p games?

In my experience, it's always a 720x480 frame (including overscan border), whether it's 4:3 or 16:9. The picture is just stretched to the correct aspect ratio when widescreen is chosen.
 

Peltz

Member
I believe the best any Wii game does is 720x480. And most are still just 640x480 (or less, usually 640x448).

So no 16:9 games on the Wii will have as good pixel density as the 4:3 setting.

Oh... I thought they were slightly higher res for some reason.

Is that the case for most OG Xbox games as well?

Edit: Hmmm... this is confusing. I don't really have a grasp as to how Widescreen 480p really is really done on old consoles.

Sixfortyfive, is that why there's always the black border when I play Wii boot mode on my Wii U? It's included in the 720x480 resolution... as in the hardware is rendering that?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I'm prototyping an indie game that uses pixel art, and yes I'm putting scanlines into the game for the full effect!

I though this would be as good a place to ask as any. Does anyone know what the ratio of pixels : scanlines typically was on those old games?

It kinda seems like you have a single pixel, and the scanline overlays the bottom 1/4th of that pixel. Does anyone have the info here, or a link to a good site that explains it?



Sixfortyfive, is that why there's always the black border when I play Wii boot mode on my Wii U? It's included in the 720x480 resolution... as in the hardware is rendering that?

I can answer that. The short answer is that Wii on Wii U will not tell you much about the widescreen on old consoles. Playing Wii on Wii U is completely different from the resolution settings on any other console you might have. It has a line-doubler, which takes the original 480p image and doubles it to 960p. That doesn't fill a total 1080p image, so you have small borders at the top and bottom.
 
I'm prototyping an indie game that uses pixel art, and yes I'm putting scanlines into the game for the full effect!

I though this would be as good a place to ask as any. Does anyone know what the ratio of pixels : scanlines typically was on those old games?

It kinda seems like you have a single pixel, and the scanline overlays the bottom 1/4th of that pixel. Does anyone have the info here, or a link to a good site that explains it?





I can answer that. The short answer is that Wii on Wii U will not tell you much about the widescreen on old consoles. Playing Wii on Wii U is completely different from the widescreen settings on any other console you might have. It has a line-doubler, which takes the original 480p image and doubles it to 960p. That doesn't fill a total 1080p image, so you have small borders at the top and bottom.
Try fudoh's site
http://scanlines.hazard-city.de
 

Peltz

Member
I can answer that. The short answer is that Wii on Wii U will not tell you much about the widescreen on old consoles. Playing Wii on Wii U is completely different from the resolution settings on any other console you might have. It has a line-doubler, which takes the original 480p image and doubles it to 960p. That doesn't fill a total 1080p image, so you have small borders at the top and bottom.

Wow... I had no clue. Thanks for the info.

So how does it handle the "upscale" when you set the Wii U to 720p output?

And yea, I believe 240p is every other line.

P.S., if you're prototyping a game with scanline effects, could you also consider offering a native 240p option? I'd like to see it offered more often in games with retro-style pixel-art. Just a suggestion. Some of us want to see some of the glorious modern pixel art look proper on our CRTs.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Oh... I thought they were slightly higher res for some reason.

Is that the case for most OG Xbox games as well?

Edit: Hmmm... this is confusing. I don't really have a grasp as to how Widescreen 480p really is really done on old consoles.

I believe your TV is just stretching a 4:3 640x480 image out to 16:9, elongating the pixels.

That is why just leaving it at 4:3 would technically be more pixel dense.


Wow... I had no clue. Thanks for the info.

So how does it handle the "upscale" when you set the Wii U to 720p output?

Good question. Never thought of it. Maybe it's upscaling to 1080p with borders, then downscaling to 720p with borders?

P.S., if you're prototyping a game with scanline effects, could you also consider offering a native 240p option? I'd like to see it offered more often in games with retro-style pixel-art. Just a suggestion.

I totally get that. How crappy that games like Megaman 9 and 10 don't have it.

But I'm thinking of making this a full widescreen, 1080p game, just with chunky pixels and scanlines to complement. The image will actually be much larger than old school games.... it's much like how Axiom Verge is.

But who knows... maybe it will be possible to have a zoomed in version that outputs at that resolution. I'll definitely keep that possibility in the back of my mind. Thanks!
 

D.Lo

Member
Oh... I thought they were slightly higher res for some reason.

Is that the case for most OG Xbox games as well?

Edit: Hmmm... this is confusing. I don't really have a grasp as to how Widescreen 480p really is really done on old consoles.

Sixfortyfive, is that why there's always the black border when I play Wii boot mode on my Wii U? It's included in the 720x480 resolution... as in the hardware is rendering that?
Xenoblade (PAL) native resolution is 640x548.

OG Xbox and GameCube are 640x480 and stretched. Most are not even that, especially on Xbox, usually the vertical rendering resolution is lower.

All the 'HD' games on SD consoles are 'cheating' in some way, no game as far as I'm aware actually HD or even full SD widescreen resolution. Those '720p' and '1080i' games on PS2/Xbox are rendered internally at sub-SD.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Sixfortyfive, is that why there's always the black border when I play Wii boot mode on my Wii U? It's included in the 720x480 resolution... as in the hardware is rendering that?

Yes.

EDIT: Do you remember how people bitched and moaned on this forum about how their brand new Wii U "cut off the edges of the picture"? Dumbasses didn't realize that their TV's overscan settings were shit and that HD consoles generally don't pad their picture with useless borders like SD consoles often did.

You know that colored border that appears on the Genesis? Same thing, basically; it's just usually solid black on other consoles instead of colored.

I can answer that. The short answer is that Wii on Wii U will not tell you much about the widescreen on old consoles. Playing Wii on Wii U is completely different from the resolution settings on any other console you might have. It has a line-doubler, which takes the original 480p image and doubles it to 960p. That doesn't fill a total 1080p image, so you have small borders at the top and bottom.

This is 100% wrong.

Wii (480p):
http://www.sixfortyfive.com/temp/wiiu_upscale/galaxy2_wii.png

Wii U (480p):
http://www.sixfortyfive.com/temp/wiiu_upscale/galaxy2_wiiu_480.png
 

televator

Member
Xenoblade (PAL) native resolution is 640x548.

OG Xbox and GameCube are 640x480 and stretched. Most are not even that, especially on Xbox, usually the vertical rendering resolution is lower.

All the 'HD' games on SD consoles are 'cheating' in some way, no game as far as I'm aware actually HD or even full SD widescreen resolution. Those '720p' and '1080i' games on PS2/Xbox are rendered internally at sub-SD.

Very interesting information. This has been me on this page:
Maurice-Moss-Eating-Popcorn-The-IT-Crowd.gif
 

danielcw

Member
Edit: Hmmm... this is confusing. I don't really have a grasp as to how Widescreen 480p really is really done on old consoles.

It gtes easy to understand as soonas you realize that resolution and aspect ratio are 2 different things, and pixels are not always square.
A picture rendered at 640*480 pixels or below can be meant to be dispalyed at 4:3 or 16:9 or any other aspect ratio.
And because the Wii or Gamecube can not tell the TV what aspect ratio to display the picture in, you have to set it manually.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Also keep in mind that a full 720x480 square-pixel picture is neither 4:3 nor 16:9. That will be stretched horizontally in some manner no matter which one you pick.
 

Peagles

Member
All the 'HD' games on SD consoles are 'cheating' in some way, no game as far as I'm aware actually HD or even full SD widescreen resolution. Those '720p' and '1080i' games on PS2/Xbox are rendered internally at sub-SD.

I just got into the OG Xbox and hearing this is surprising after playing Soul Calibur II apparently at 720p. I swear it looks amazing so it's really hard to imagine that it's really rendered in SD. Although at 4:3 it may be the only exception? Either way it looks incredible!
 

BONKERS

Member
Yeah, and even then. Good luck getting smooth performance and image stability. Don't even start about input lag. Let alone all 3 at one time

With PCSX2 any game that requires any kind of precision, don't even bother.


Also: Wii rendering information plebs>
Quote from EkeEke
"the Wii always output the same resolution signal, which is 720x480 (720x576 for PAL) interlaced/progressive or
720x240 (720x288 for PAL) non-interlaced (also called double strike or "Original" in emulators).
the maximal active screen SIZE (size that can be rendered by the Wii GPU in one pass) corresponds to the size of the
embedded framebuffer (EFB) and is 640x528.
the video hardware can then be configured to position (generally centered but it´s up to the developer) your
rendered screen (640x448 or 640x224 for example) in the video signal window (720x480 or 720x240 as explained
first), the "inactive" pixels being output to black.
what i do in "original" mode is to render the emulated active screen (320x224 for most Genesis games but some
games use 256x224 and Master System or Game Gear games do as well) then DOUBLE it horizontally to 640x224 or
512x224 inside the embedded framebuffer, using Wii GPU texture hardware (GX) scaling.
GX scaling by default applies heavy bilinear filtering when upscaling so I have to disable hardware filtering if I want
the image to remain sharp and not blurry. The fact that the screen width is simply doubled prevents scaling (generally
visible when games are scrolling if you use a non-integer scaling ratio with no filtering).
This other way is to use a feature of the Wii Video encoder which is able to upscale horizontally the framebuffer
rendered by the Wii GPU up to the max. resolution (720 pixels), without any noticeable filtering ( understand, not
blurry).
So what I do is taking the rendered frame buffer, 640x224 (384x224 with overscan emulated) or 512x224 and let the
Video Encoder upscale it to a COMMON and FIXED size (something like 644 pixels, which comes from my calculation
based on Genesis and Wii pixel clocks, and match my observation against my real Genesis output on the same TV).
And yes, the 256x224 original screen also needs to be upscaled to that common width because pixels in this mode
wasn't square pixels at all on the real thing, while Wii pixels always are. Similarly, pixels in 320x224 mode aren't
exactly square, which is why the screen is still upscaled to little than simply 640 pixels. All of this is because of the
different pixels used on Genesis in the different resolution modes and on the Wii.
Lack of sharpness [when in 256 horizontal and not 512] is undoubtedly due to filtering being applied, either through
software or through hardware."

Another post with info here
http://libretro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1051
 

BONKERS

Member
I just got into the OG Xbox and hearing this is surprising after playing Soul Calibur II apparently at 720p. I swear it looks amazing so it's really hard to imagine that it's really rendered in SD. Although at 4:3 it may be the only exception? Either way it looks incredible!

It might be downsampling or using FSAA at 480p too.

640x480 + 1.5x1.5 = 225% resolution of 640x480 = 960x720

Some Xbox games did have some pretty good AA. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2x comes to mind. (As long as you disable the putrid motion blur)
 

televator

Member
Alright it seem there's a definite advantage in running native 480p games through HDMI in 480p without an external scaler For my HDTV. My TV has some damn good internal scaling. I guess that's what happens when 70% of its processing is dedicated to picture.

As much as I like the WiiU's upscaling my ST60 has fewer or no artifacts by comparison.
 
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