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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Really? The console space saw massive improvements in filtering and the largest generational leap in resolution ever. PC GPUs began to overcome buffer size limits, allowing for reasonable play at screen resolutions that are still decent today, and for efficient use of techniques like MSAA.

And of course we were still using CRTs, so static contrast and black levels were still good.

Sixth gen was a glorious time for IQ.


agreed. it's easy to forget, but the leap was massive. "Jaggies" were the popular thing to bitch about back then and a lot of PS2 games do lack decent AA, but just hop back a gen to PS1 and suddenly the jaggies aren't such a big deal.
 

baphomet

Member
Its Triangle and X and I don't think dropping it down to 480p is gonna help much over the standard 576i
Although it may being progressive, I just don't remember it being this bad on my HDTV, although I did run it through my PS3 before which is sadly not an option.
Sony needs to update the PS4 with BC with 1080p rendering, I fear some of the old gems from the pre HD era are gonna be lost forever, especially in a playable form, unless you have a decent PC for emulation.
I find it embarrassing that my Xperia is my go to device for PSX games instead of the 4 Playstation.


480p will look much better than 576i.
 
My guess is that yes, it's comparable and worth the $79 if it's in good condition. I'd jump on it if you are cool with playing on a 14" screen.

I'm indecisive because I just started keeping my eye on eBay and Craigslist and ideally would want a 20" PVM or comparable monitor. Ideally ideally I would collect a whole bunch of different types but don't want to become a monitor hoarder.
 

IrishNinja

Member
man, FW 2.0 is such hot shit. some of these profiles are gorgeous, was trying out Pulseman and it looks better than i ever had it with on my settings!

grabbed the genesis, SNES & 480i PS2 ones, totally looking forward to DC, PCE, N64, NES etc etc down the road

also, i know i asked but - can someone link me to a SCART extension cable again? i got the female/female adapter i needed, just want to run the BNC/SCART out to closer by the XRGB station so i can keep everything in one place
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
I just realized I had given away my PS2 component cables a long time ago.
Is there a "best" set of component cables I should get, or just Sony brand?
 
I just realized I had given away my PS2 component cables a long time ago.
Is there a "best" set of component cables I should get, or just Sony brand?

I was thinking about this. I'm thinking generic ps3 component cables should be perfectly fine. I'd just avoid something coming in massive quantities from hong kong or something similar.
 

BONKERS

Member
I'm sort of shocked to see so much negativity surrounding PS2's image quality. Is there a difference in the clarity of output between a Slim and an OG PS2? My slim looks pretty great, even at 480i (aka the bastard-res). PS1 output at 240p is also as clean as it gets.

Maybe I'm just not playing the same PS2 games as everyone else? I mostly use mine for the Katamari games.

The interlacing and lack of an ability to force any given game to render in a progressive mode sucks. (Not that most CRTs will even support 480p frustratingly. But 480p would make things a lot more palatable for upscaling)

I'm playing AC2 on a CRT right now, the flickering alone is irritating.

agreed. it's easy to forget, but the leap was massive. "Jaggies" were the popular thing to bitch about back then and a lot of PS2 games do lack decent AA, but just hop back a gen to PS1 and suddenly the jaggies aren't such a big deal.

Interlacing makes aliasing a lot worse.

Also: Get Official component cables. Remember it's an analog signal. 3rd party component cables for the Wii can be pretty shit, and I would imagine the PS2 would be no different.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If I was CRT shopping specifically for a PS2, I'd probably at least make an effort to find a 16:9 EDTV.

Out of all the mainstream consoles, PS2 is the hardest one to do right on modern displays IMO.
 

D.Lo

Member
If I was CRT shopping specifically for a PS2, I'd probably at least make an effort to find a 16:9 EDTV.

Out of all the mainstream consoles, PS2 is the hardest one to do right on modern displays IMO.
I never saw as much advantage of 480p over 480i on my top quality PAL Panasonic CRT which was my main rig for years.

576i looked better than 480p on it for me, for well converted PAL games (e.g. Nintendo first party, in particular Metroid Prime, Wind Waker and F-Zero GX, I had PAL and JP copies of all).

Yes there was slightly less flicker overall on 480p. The difference between 480i and 480p was just a tiny bit of motion stability. But the relatively small increase in resolution to 576i was a far bigger advantage than that, much less aliasing in those games.

Now on my plasma, 480p is by far the best image. But from my experience, progressive scan isn't as huge a deal on a CRT.

PS2 looked as good as it ever could on that screen IMO. Since then it's the only console I don't have hooked up because it looks like ass on everything except my PVM.
 

danielcw

Member
I never saw as much advantage of 480p over 480i on my top quality PAL Panasonic CRT which was my main rig for years.

576i looked better than 480p on it for me, for well converted PAL games (e.g. Nintendo first party, in particular Metroid Prime, Wind Waker and F-Zero GX, I had PAL and JP copies of all).

Which Panasonic TV is it?
Most more Panasonic TVs I knew of had all sorts digital image enhancements, which I disliked.

While I have no concrete opinion of the image quality of F-Zero GX (PAL),
the game runs slower in 50hz mode, the expected 17%. So I wouldn't call it well converted.
 

Peltz

Member
I never saw as much advantage of 480p over 480i on my top quality PAL Panasonic CRT which was my main rig for years.

576i looked better than 480p on it for me, for well converted PAL games (e.g. Nintendo first party, in particular Metroid Prime, Wind Waker and F-Zero GX, I had PAL and JP copies of all).

Yes there was slightly less flicker overall on 480p. The difference between 480i and 480p was just a tiny bit of motion stability. But the relatively small increase in resolution to 576i was a far bigger advantage than that, much less aliasing in those games.

Now on my plasma, 480p is by far the best image. But from my experience, progressive scan isn't as huge a deal on a CRT.

PS2 looked as good as it ever could on that screen IMO. Since then it's the only console I don't have hooked up because it looks like ass on everything except my PVM.

So you're saying, it's basically that it's not worth looking for a CRT that does 480p if we already have a good one that does 480i?

Hmmm...

Can anyone else chime in and offer their opinions? I'd love to hear from someone with a PVM 20l5 or something similar give me their thoughts as to whether they see a huge upgrade from 480i to 480p on their CRT on the same game.
 

D.Lo

Member
While I have no concrete opinion of the image quality of F-Zero GX (PAL),
the game runs slower in 50hz mode, the expected 17%. So I wouldn't call it well converted.
An improvement if you want to unlock Arcade Mode!
Which Panasonic TV is it?
Most more Panasonic TVs I knew of had all sorts digital image enhancements, which I disliked.
I can't remember. Gone now. It was 68cm, 4:3 and was assembled in Australia.

It did have bad geometry I had to tweak to death in a service menu, and it was never quite right, but that's big CRTs.

So you're saying, it's basically that it's not worth looking for a CRT that does 480p if we already have a good one that does 480i?
That was my experience with that screen. May not be true in every circumstance.

Certainly 480i looks great on my current PVM. Looks like crap on my plasma.
 

antibolo

Banned
576i is 576 / 2 = 288 lines every frame.
480p is 480 lines every frame.

So yeah, 480p is definitely not a downgrade, it's 66% more lines than 576i.
 

D.Lo

Member
576i is 576 / 2 = 288 lines every frame.
480p is 480 lines every frame.

So yeah, 480p is definitely not a downgrade, it's 66% more lines than 576i.
Just saying it looked better on that screen. The increase in screen resolution was more important than the loss of temporal resolution, edges of objects in Metroid Prime had less aliasing.
 

Peltz

Member
D.Lo, with all due respect to you, what you're saying is pretty surprising to me. 240p looks better to my eyes than 480i on all three of my CRTs. It's a night and day difference on each set due to the lack of noise.

So I cannot imagine 480p on a CRT not also being way better than 480i. 480i is unlike any other resolution I've seen. It's a bastard res that never should have existed in videogames.

Unfortunately, I'm still without a 480p capable-CRT so I cannot test my hypothesis. But I'd be shocked if 480p didn't look much cleaner than 480i.
 

D.Lo

Member
240p to 480i is a completely different comparison. Way different issues to the same resolution interlaced vs progressive, particularly on a CRT.

480i versions of games that are designed for 240p lose scanlimes and are blurry and ugly.

480i to 480p look exactly the same, except the latter has better motion and stability. And 480p is definitely better than 480i in all circumstances, and far better in some. It's just that on a good CRT I noticed less difference.

Way different things.
 
Looking to do a cable buy from retro_console_accessories and have a few questions.

1) The Model 1 Genesis cable with the extra jack for stereo, that won't work for monitor play (PVM for instance) because the monitor doesn't have speakers. So for Framemeister you would go with this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/161575853221?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT but for PVM or something you would need some kind of break out audio to connect to a receiver or another sound system. Would this work http://www.ebay.com/itm/161612341108?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT even though it says it's for SCART to YUV couldn't you just connect male to male audio cables to some audio setup?
2) SNES 1-chip, first of all are the eBay auctions like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nintendo-SNES-1-CHIP-Best-Video-Quality-RGB-Plays-SFC-cartridges-/261838211444?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf6c60974 to be trusted? And if I do get a 1-chip, what retro_console_accessories cable do I need for it? Would one of those work for both Framemeister and PVM, and would I need to pull the breakout audio trick like I mentioned above for Genesis?
3) NTSC Saturn, what cables? Would I need a sync stripper for this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/161614155039?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT or does the Saturn do fine with sync on composite? Again, what about audio for monitor users? I've read a lot of this thread and no one mentions how they get their audio when using a PVM or similar monitor without speakers on it, or if someone just wants to use other speakers than their TVs. It seems to me that the solution is to use a that SCART audio breakout box and some audio cables on deck to send audio out to another receiver when desired.
Thanks for any help guys!
 
your consoles being NTSC is pretty irrelevant. What matters is the cable you use with your console. If it is wired to the Japanese standard, then you can use the one that came with the FM, if they're wired to the EU standard (which they probably are), then you'll want an adapter like that.
 

Peagles

Member
For sound on my PVM I just plug the 4 video BNC cables into the PVM and run the 2 audio ones to my speakers, I don't even pass the sound through my PVM.

If I was using my other PVM which only takes SCART input instead of BNC I'd just use a little breakout box (just link it in the chain somewhere) and run RCA cables out to my speakers. They only cost a few bucks. But I think you can do full pass through via that PVM anyway (2130QM),
 
your consoles being NTSC is pretty irrelevant. What matters is the cable you use with your console. If it is wired to the Japanese standard, then you can use the one that came with the FM, if they're wired to the EU standard (which they probably are), then you'll want an adapter like that.
Right, but retro_console_accessories sells a passive and a sync stripping version of that adapter and I don't know if I need the sync stripping or not.
 
I think around +$500 USD when you factor in the NES mod and all of the cables. The Playstation RGB cable(s) may be particularly tough to get these days if recent posts are any indication. It also depends on whether you're buying a SCART switch or manually changing your consoles every time. You'll need:

-Framemeister - $280
-Euroscart to Framemeister wire - $20-30
-NES mod + board = $160 or so if you plan to have someone do it for you
-SCART cables = $20 to $30 each depending on what level of insulation you're looking for.
-SCART switch = ??? - the prices are all over the place on this. Could be anywhere from $40 to a $150 or so I'd guess.

I kind of get the impression that these people aren't reading the OP in the first place and that a FAQ wouldn't help. There isn't room to add anything else anyway without rewriting and removing some of what's already there.

I mean, the order of display solutions discussed in the OP basically goes: CRT (plus SCART-to-component converter if needed; PVMs mentioned), old monitors and basic linedoublers, and finally HDTVs plus upscalers. So, the major bases are covered, in order from cheapest to most expensive.

It's either that, or these people don't like what they hear (Framemeister is too expensive) and ask for other options anyway.

It's also kind of hard to provide a good stock answer for cheap alternatives because things always seem to be changing on that front. Some hobbyists at shmups will have some solution in the works, but it either takes forever to hit the market or gets shelved indefinitely. HD Retrovision cables are coming but not out yet and are a more limited solution than the PR would have you believe. etc.


NES: RGB mod (<$100 if you can do it yourself; closer to $200 if not), custom AV port (ideally the same as an SNES AV port so that you can share cables between the two systems), and the RGB cable
SNES: just the cable, as long as you have an original model SNES ($20 or so)
Genesis: just the cable ($20)
PS1/PS2: just use the PS2 with official component cables; obtain a component to d-terminal adapter if you need to plug it into an upscaler
Upscaler: either a Framemeister or an XRGB-3; this would run you anywhere from $200 to $300

Thank you both. How difficult is the RGB mod? Or where can I get it done?

I have an original SNES and Genesis. So no modification is needed of that hardware? Just the NES?

And where would I find a component to d-terminal adapter?

Before you guys tell me to google, I did. And the thing I found was there seems to be a lot of shitty cables out there. If you have a suggestion or suggestions on what I should use that would be awesome.

Where do you guys suggest I get an XRGB?
 
For sound on my PVM I just plug the 4 video BNC cables into the PVM and run the 2 audio ones to my speakers, I don't even pass the sound through my PVM.

If I was using my other PVM which only takes SCART input instead of BNC I'd just use a little breakout box (just link it in the chain somewhere) and run RCA cables out to my speakers. They only cost a few bucks. But I think you can do full pass through via that PVM anyway (2130QM),
I forgot that most of the monitors I'm talking about need BNC conversion and that is another point of audio break out. Thanks, that means that the only time you would need SCART audio break out is if you wanted to use other speakers when using a Framemeister etc.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Again with some probably not too relevant stuff here, but I don't want to make a topic.

Does anyone have any recommendations for recording gameplay from older consoles? Something that can take S-Video input (ideally, I guess composite would suffice if necessary), pass through video to the TV, and not lag. The ability to record to a USB device or SD card would be extremely nice, since I don't have a PC near my CRT.

It doesn't seem like that exists, or maybe I just don't know what to look for.
 
Right, but retro_console_accessories sells a passive and a sync stripping version of that adapter and I don't know if I need the sync stripping or not.

I haven't had sync issues that are related to this so I'm honestly not sure. it might be safer to just get the powered one but I honestly don't know what issues it's meant to fix.
 

Bodacious

Banned
Right, but retro_console_accessories sells a passive and a sync stripping version of that adapter and I don't know if I need the sync stripping or not.

Yeah I wish there was a wiki that would tell you the optimal cable selection for a given console -> FM -> display type, to sort out all this csync, sync on this or that, sync splitter, audio splitter stuff. Is such a thing even possible?
 

antibolo

Banned
Again with some probably not too relevant stuff here, but I don't want to make a topic.

Does anyone have any recommendations for recording gameplay from older consoles? Something that can take S-Video input (ideally, I guess composite would suffice if necessary), pass through video to the TV, and not lag. The ability to record to a USB device or SD card would be extremely nice, since I don't have a PC near my CRT.

It doesn't seem like that exists, or maybe I just don't know what to look for.

The Elgato Game Capture HD can do exactly that.
 
Yeah I wish there was a wiki that would tell you the optimal cable selection for a given console -> FM -> display type, to sort out all this csync, sync on this or that, sync splitter, audio splitter stuff. Is such a thing even possible?

I wish something like this existed, too. I imagine it would be quite the project to undertake, though. You'd need a number of people with disposable income to do proper testing and such.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
The Elgato Game Capture HD can do exactly that.

Unfortunately that, and every other "HD" capture card I've seen, only has HDMI out. I need something with composite/s-video output to hook up to my CRT.

I've seen some cheap SD stuff (most seem to have poor reviews though), but it is just USB and doesn't pass through to a TV.
 

antibolo

Banned
Unfortunately that, and every other "HD" capture card I've seen, only have HDMI out. I need something with composite/s-video output to hook up to my CRT.

I've seen some cheap SD stuff, but it is just USB and doesn't pass through to a TV.

If your CRT were a PVM (I assume it's not) you could plug the capture into its passthrough output ports.

Short of that, I guess you could split the signal somehow.
 
Unfortunately that, and every other "HD" capture card I've seen, only has HDMI out. I need something with composite/s-video output to hook up to my CRT.

I've seen some cheap SD stuff (most seem to have poor reviews though), but it is just USB and doesn't pass through to a TV.

If your CRT were a PVM (I assume it's not) you could plug the capture into its passthrough output ports.

Short of that, I guess you could split the signal somehow.

Yeah, you're going to want a splitter. This is the best way to do it for all recording unless your monitor/TV has video out.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Don't have a monitor.

This is the cheapest splitter I've seen so far, apart from Y-cable things that would probably be awful.

Will have to look into some S-Video capture cards tomorrow.
 
Don't have a monitor.

This is the cheapest splitter I've seen so far, apart from Y-cable things that would probably be awful.

Will have to look into some S-Video capture cards tomorrow.

You might hit up the speedrunning community thread. Lots of people over there stream and don't want any lag. They might be able to help you out.
 

Bodacious

Banned
I wish something like this existed, too. I imagine it would be quite the project to undertake, though. You'd need a number of people with disposable income to do proper testing and such.

It doesn't have to be a breakdown of each possible display mfgr and model, just (for example)

Genesis/MD Model 1 -> FM -> HDTV = "Cable"
 
It doesn't have to be a breakdown of each possible display mfgr and model, just (for example)

Genesis/MD Model 1 -> FM -> HDTV = "Cable"

I think the issue is that unless it was only keeping track of the FM, you'd still have too many permutations. TV model numbers as well as console models.
 
so...so yes then?

I would think you'd want the highest quality cable you can get for an extension so maybe that's not the best option? Prices like that always worry me with cables.
how do i install the XRGB mini firmware again? my goldfish memory did its job and i can't remember.
Download firmware, unzip, place entire folder on the root of microSD card, unplug framemeister, insert microSD card, plug in framemeister, let it update.
 

televator

Member
how do i install the XRGB mini firmware again? my goldfish memory did its job and i can't remember.

Unzip it and just put the file in the root directory of the mini SD. Unplug the the FM stick the SD in, plug the mini back in and power it on, and it'll update automatically.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Thank you both. How difficult is the RGB mod? Or where can I get it done?
More info here:
http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/

You basically have to remove the CPU and PPU from the NES, stick them onto the RGB board, connect the RGB board to the NES, and wire the RGB board to whatever AV port you install.

I could direct you to the guy on the shmups forum who did it for me. Some people here might also be willing to do it.

There's also the HDMI NES mod by Kevtris in the works, which would give you 1080p HDMI output without the need for any external upscaler. Not sure what the ETA is.

XRGBs, d-terminal adapters, etc. can all be purchased from Solaris Japan. It's either that or the second-hand market, AFAIK.

Again with some probably not too relevant stuff here, but I don't want to make a topic.

Does anyone have any recommendations for recording gameplay from older consoles? Something that can take S-Video input (ideally, I guess composite would suffice if necessary), pass through video to the TV, and not lag. The ability to record to a USB device or SD card would be extremely nice, since I don't have a PC near my CRT.

It doesn't seem like that exists, or maybe I just don't know what to look for.
The XCAPTURE-1 will do all of that but the SD recording. It's not cheap though.
 

Lynd7

Member
Friend set up his XRGBand N64 yesterday, we couldn't get on the net at the time to get firmware, so just had to use what it had on already. The scanline meister mode seemed to make it look the best, without scanlines the picture looked a fair bit worse.

He should have net soonish, so will update the firmware.
 

Madao

Member
I would think you'd want the highest quality cable you can get for an extension so maybe that's not the best option? Prices like that always worry me with cables.

Download firmware, unzip, place entire folder on the root of microSD card, unplug framemeister, insert microSD card, plug in framemeister, let it update.

Unzip it and just put the file in the root directory of the mini SD. Unplug the the FM stick the SD in, plug the mini back in and power it on, and it'll update automatically.

thanks for the help.

i guess the reason i forgot is because it was so simple and easy.
 
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