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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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S

speedlolita

Member
Khaz said:
I wouldn't do that. Scart sockets are fragile and prone to break with too much manipulation. Solder break and you have to wiggle the cable to display a picture. At least use a cable extender so you can break that instead of your TV. It's easy to repair, just redo the solder, but you have to open your TV and it can kill you.
Click to expand...

You posted about this before. I can appreciate what you're saying but it is honestly no big issue. Not only did I manually adjust the image on my display via pots on the chassis while it was on, the SCART socket is on a modular panel. Repair would be easy as pie, if it ever did become faulty. I shouldn't imagine it would, none of my cables provide much resistance at all upon entry or exit.
 
M

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
vilmer_ said:
Just a quick question - I ordered the XRGB Framemeister Mini and as far as I know, I'll need to look for a JP-21 pin cables in order for my old systems to work with it right? Is there a difference in quality between JP-21 and SCART? Should I be looking for a JP-21 to SCART converter?
Click to expand...

I know this is already answered, but it just felt soo damn good reading a question like this and understanding it all - and knowing the answer to it!
 
F

Friend of Sonic

Member
Khaz said:
That shouldn't be a problem. Keep your cables short, but the signals should be pretty robust with good cables.
Click to expand...
Yeah, just to hop on this response, I haven't noticed any degradation. I got juicy coax shielded cables from retro console accessories just to try and be safe
 
G

GayForMaster

Banned
Mercutio said:
I'd love to have a second one for more inputs, but I don't want to take it from someone who doesn't have one at all and needs one.
Click to expand...

I have someone like you on my waiting list as well, but yeah I feel maybe it is necessary to give priority to those without a single switch.
 
A

Alchemy

Member
Whoa, this is a long thread have no idea where to start.

My current situation is I want a cheap~ish composite to HDMI converter that has keeps the aspect ratio of the games (since most retro stuff is 4:3) and has minimal lag. I want to stream some retro stuff, but my Elgato introduces lag upscaling the image. I basically want it to get upscaled before going into the Elgato since other HDMI inputs don't lag at all.

Are there any options? Everything I find seems to stretch the image.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Alchemy said:
Whoa, this is a long thread have no idea where to start.

My current situation is I want a cheap~ish composite to HDMI converter that has keeps the aspect ratio of the games (since most retro stuff is 4:3) and has minimal lag. I want to stream some retro stuff, but my Elgato introduces lag upscaling the image. I basically want it to get upscaled before going into the Elgato since other HDMI inputs don't lag at all.

Are there any options? Everything I find seems to stretch the image.
Click to expand...

sounds like you need a splitter, not a converter. if you want to stream/record with 0 lag a splitter is definitely superior.
 
A

Alchemy

Member
NormalFish said:
sounds like you need a splitter, not a converter. if you want to stream/record with 0 lag a splitter is definitely superior.
Click to expand...

Superior but not ideal in my situation, the Elgato has a pass through to another monitor I use for gaming when streaming. Already have it set up and would prefer not to drag my CRT TV over to my desk just for streaming. It would be a lot simpler to just upscale before connecting to the capture card, then I wouldn't have to change anything else with my set up.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Alchemy said:
Superior but not ideal in my situation, the Elgato has a pass through to another monitor I use for gaming when streaming. Already have it set up and would prefer not to drag my CRT TV over to my desk just for streaming. It would be a lot simpler to just upscale before connecting to the capture card, then I wouldn't have to change anything else with my set up.
Click to expand...

well alright. I unfortunately don't know of a good composite -> hdmi box. This thread doesn't really talk composite so I don't know if you'll get an answer you want. I always refer people to speedrunning communities for such things, since they tend to have lots of questions like that, and thus have answers for people.
 
B

brainpann

Member
Hey-Im hoping someone here can help me troubleshoot a problem with a Genesis/Master system scart cable. Recently, I purchased a scart cable to use with my Master System, but when I plug it in, I only get audio. I tried the same cable on my Genesis and it works fine. I get audio and video no problem. I tried one of my Genesis scart cables on the Master system and it too works fine-minus ths sound because that cable pulls from the headphone jack.

What could be going on? Why would the scart cable work fine on a Genesis but not on a Master System? Ive also tried the it on my both my XRGB and PVM. Both tell me no signal but give me audio. The Master system is the model with Hang On and Safari Hunt. I opened the cable and it does have caps and resistors.
 
K

Khaz

Member
brainpann said:
Hey-Im hoping someone here can help me troubleshoot a problem with a Genesis/Master system scart cable. Recently, I purchased a scart cable to use with my Master System, but when I plug it in, I only get audio. I tried the same cable on my Genesis and it works fine. I get audio and video no problem. I tried one of my Genesis scart cables on the Master system and it too works fine-minus ths sound because that cable pulls from the headphone jack.

What could be going on? Why would the scart cable work fine on a Genesis but not on a Master System? Ive also tried the it on my both my XRGB and PVM. Both tell me no signal but give me audio. The Master system is the model with Hang On and Safari Hunt. I opened the cable and it does have caps and resistors.
Click to expand...

The Din8 socket on the Master System is very fragile. Most likely solder joints on the motherboard are broken and you need to resolder them or make a more permanent repair.
 
B

brainpann

Member
Khaz said:
The Din8 socket on the Master System is very fragile. Most likely solder joints on the motherboard are broken and you need to resolder them or make a more permanent repair.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense because it DOES work with my Genesis scart cable.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
brainpann said:
Hey-Im hoping someone here can help me troubleshoot a problem with a Genesis/Master system scart cable. Recently, I purchased a scart cable to use with my Master System, but when I plug it in, I only get audio. I tried the same cable on my Genesis and it works fine. I get audio and video no problem. I tried one of my Genesis scart cables on the Master system and it too works fine-minus ths sound because that cable pulls from the headphone jack.

What could be going on? Why would the scart cable work fine on a Genesis but not on a Master System? Ive also tried the it on my both my XRGB and PVM. Both tell me no signal but give me audio. The Master system is the model with Hang On and Safari Hunt. I opened the cable and it does have caps and resistors.
Click to expand...
Makes no sense as MS and Gen/MD have identical pinouts.

I'm guessing one of the lines (either ground or composite) isn't making contact on the MS. Check inside both plugs, make sure both have all pins etc.
 
B

brainpann

Member
D.Lo said:
Makes no sense as MS and Gen/MD have identical pinouts.

I'm guessing one of the lines (either ground or composite) isn't making contact on the MS. Check inside both plugs, make sure both have all pins etc.
Click to expand...


I did a quick look last night and both seem to be identical except the cable I specifically bought for the SMS is missing the unused teeth(?). Even still, the cable works fine of the Genesis and my Genesis cable works fine on the SMS.

So why dont I use the MS cable on the Gen and vice versa? Because the Genesis cable only pulls audio through the headphone kack, leaving me sound-less if I were to usu it on the MS. The MS cable only pulls mono audio, leaving the Genesis robots farts in mono.

Not gonna lie-I tried to save a few bucks and buy a cheaper cable. This is what I get for not buying from retro_console_accessories.
 
M

moltonasty

Member
Having a hard time locating a good scart switch in the US. The cheapo Belkin auto switch I got on ebay seriously destroys the image quality and gives everything a pinkish hue.

Any recommendations for something actually available for purchase and under $100? I don't need too many inputs TBH.
 
R

Rongolian

Banned
moltonasty said:
Having a hard time locating a good scart switch in the US. The cheapo Belkin auto switch I got on ebay seriously destroys the image quality and gives everything a pinkish hue.

Any recommendations for something actually available for purchase and under $100? I don't need too many inputs TBH.
Click to expand...


I got this one, shipped quickly to US:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELRO-Silver...301?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad5399f85

It's the rebranded "Hama" switch, and was the only one I could find also. No noticeable drop in picture quality, only drawback is that the hum or buzz in audio from SCART cables is a bit more noticeable, but not a deal breaker
 
M

moltonasty

Member
M

Madao

Member
okay, i need some advice from N64 RGB experts.

is it possible to get both RGB and composite/S-video out of an RGB modded N64?

now that i have a working CRT, i thought about getting back into F-Zero X due to no input lag but all my current recording setup is with HD sources in mind. i thought that getting both signals out from the console would be the easiest solution but i want to hear from people more in the know to see if this is possible before i tear up and break my 64.
 
S

speedlolita

Member
Madao said:
okay, i need some advice from N64 RGB experts.

is it possible to get both RGB and composite/S-video out of an RGB modded N64?

now that i have a working CRT, i thought about getting back into F-Zero X due to no input lag but all my current recording setup is with HD sources in mind. i thought that getting both signals out from the console would be the easiest solution but i want to hear from people more in the know to see if this is possible before i tear up and break my 64.
Click to expand...

Is it an NTSC machine? Which revision is the motherboard?

As I recall, most people opt for either luma or c-sync instead of composite video sync for the RGB mod. I think you'd need to undo this to make use of composite and s-video.

Edit: You can quickly test this by trying to hook it up to a TV via a composite cable. If it is modded as I suggest then it won't display an image.
 
B

brainpann

Member
Madao said:
okay, i need some advice from N64 RGB experts.

is it possible to get both RGB and composite/S-video out of an RGB modded N64?

now that i have a working CRT, i thought about getting back into F-Zero X due to no input lag but all my current recording setup is with HD sources in mind. i thought that getting both signals out from the console would be the easiest solution but i want to hear from people more in the know to see if this is possible before i tear up and break my 64.
Click to expand...

I was able to get svideo and composite out of mine by putting a switch on it. Normally you cut the composite (sync?)on an RGB modded n64 else it will you a weirdcheckboard pattern will using RGB. Add a switch and you can get composite again.
 
M

Madao

Member
speedlolita said:
Is it an NTSC machine? Which revision is the motherboard?

As I recall, most people opt for either luma or c-sync instead of composite video sync for the RGB mod. I think you'd need to undo this to make use of composite and s-video.

Edit: You can quickly test this by trying to hook it up to a TV via a composite cable. If it is modded as I suggest then it won't display an image.
Click to expand...

it's an early NTSC USA model. i bought it with the mod already done.

if getting composite out of it means undoing the mod, i guess i'll just use my other unmodded N64 then.
 
B

brainpann

Member
Madao said:
it's an early NTSC USA model. i bought it with the mod already done.

if getting composite out of it means undoing the mod, i guess i'll just use my other unmodded N64 then.
Click to expand...

You shouldn't have to undo the mod. Most often, part of the mod involves cutting the trace to composite sync to get rid of the checkerboard patter. All you have to do it recconect the trace via a switch and youre in business. Should be either pin 7 or 9 on the av out. Cant remember exactly but i think 7. I have modded 5 N64s myself and this was how it was done everytime.

You can check using a pair of composite av cables. If you get a color picture then great. Your N64 was one of the lucky few that for whatever reason didnt need composite sync cut. If you get a black and white pic, then composite sync was cut and you can add a switch. If you get an all black picture then I have no clue what mod was performed on yours.

Edit
Didnt see the post you were replying to but i get ablack and white pic via composite cables out of my n64 with the rgb mod. This might be because I use a ths7311 amp, which is the fairly common methodof n64 rgb modding.
 
K

Khaz

Member
brainpann said:
Edit
Didnt see the post you were replying to but i get ablack and white pic via composite cables out of my n64 with the rgb mod. This might be because I use a ths7311 amp, which is the fairly common methodof n64 rgb modding.
Click to expand...

More likely because you have luma on your sync/composite pin.

This is exactly why I'm an advocate of video sync, with a sync stripper in the cable if the display doesn't support both signals in the Scart cable. This way you retain the ability to use Composite if needed and any cable should still work. It's useful to test the console and display. Csync should be kept as a last measure, like if you have jailbars dues to crosstalk on the motherboard itself. Checkerboard pattern isn't crosstalk or contamination, it's simply the TV choosing to display Composite instead of RGB. Don't forget your +5V on Scart pins 8 and 16 for an automatic switch.
 
B

brainpann

Member
Khaz said:
More likely because you have luma on your sync/composite pin.

This is exactly why I'm an advocate of video sync, with a sync stripper in the cable if the display doesn't support both signals in the Scart cable. This way you retain the ability to use Composite if needed and any cable should still work. It's useful to test the console and display. Csync should be kept as a last measure, like if you have jailbars dues to crosstalk on the motherboard itself. Checkerboard pattern isn't crosstalk or contamination, it's simply the TV choosing to display Composite instead of RGB. Don't forget your +5V on Scart pins 8 and 16 for an automatic switch.
Click to expand...

Ahhh-ok. Thanks for the info! If i ever do another n64 rgb mod, ill keep this in mind.
 
C

CoachKevin

Member
Quick question.

looking to get a SCART to BNC adapter but I am not sure if I have EURO or JP SCART cables.

Tried looking in old emails to see my orders but no luck.

All I have to go off of is that I needed to get a different adapter for my Framemeister after I bought all my scart cables.

So I am guessing it came with a JP adapter so I needed a EURO SCART to Framemeister adapter.

Does that sound right?
 
robot

robot

Member
CoachKevin said:
Quick question.

looking to get a SCART to BNC adapter but I am not sure if I have EURO or JP SCART cables.

Tried looking in old emails to see my orders but no luck.

All I have to go off of is that I needed to get a different adapter for my Framemeister after I bought all my scart cables.

So I am guessing it came with a JP adapter so I needed a EURO SCART to Framemeister adapter.

Does that sound right?
Click to expand...

Yea the FM comes with a jp21 adapter, so if you ordered an adapter chances are you're using scart.
 
xemumanic

xemumanic

Member
D.Lo said:
Makes no sense as MS and Gen/MD have identical pinouts.

I'm guessing one of the lines (either ground or composite) isn't making contact on the MS. Check inside both plugs, make sure both have all pins etc.
Click to expand...

I think only the Master System and Genesis model 1 DIN ports are the same. They were changed afterwards.
 
D

DownGrader

Member
After realizing that I cannot access neither composite input nor SCART and VGA on my LCD TV due to the TV stand mount, and thinking I has no need (or money) for a good HD upscaler, I decided to go to pawn shops and buy some CRT TV. I already have a LG Flatron one (circa 2003) which functionality suits me, but it's not in a good condition, with geometry distortions and such.

So, what TV sets, brands or models can you suggest to look after? I am planning to play games up to early Wii titles, so I need a pretty capable TV set, with:
- component inputs
- PAL60 support and (preferably) NTSC mode
- (preferably) progressive scan mode
S-Video would be a nice bonus so I can hook up some US consoles or PC via TV tuner.

Please bear in mind that I am going to hunt the TV in pawn shops and on craigslist-like sites in some provincial Russian city, so, yeah,I am looking for something common and consumer. Besides, I don't want that much of a precision - I would gladly play on LCD/LED via VGA and component, but I physically cannot do that, do I decided just to take an opportunity to buy a CRT TV.
 
K

Khaz

Member
You need to decide what sort of tube you want. For the Wii you are better off with a widescreen TV, and it will most likely be 100Hz. 100Hz reduces flickering but is incompatible with light guns. Only the very latest Widescreen CRT may support Component and 480p,but they are quite rare in PAL-land. A nice big old 4/3 CRT feels better for everything that isn't the Wii and Xbox.

As long as your TV has a Scart input, it accepts RGB. With RGB, you don't need to worry about PAL or NTSC. All TVs can switch between 50Hz and 60Hz through RGB. Most PAL TVs can decode NTSC via Composite/S-Video, however they most often are PAL/SECAM only via RF.

Progressive signal depends on the cable. With RGB you can have 240p or 480i, depending on what the console sends. 480p is only via Component only, and CRT with Component are quite rare.

S-Video is an extension of the Scart standard. Most TV can use it via an adapter on their Scart socket.

Many people like the look and feel of Trinitrons. But no matter what brand or model, it's best if you can actually see it display stuff. If you can I would suggest you to take your favourite console with the 240p Test Suite so that you can detect any defect like geometry problems with the grid, or scratched glass with the checkerboard pattern.
 
D

DownGrader

Member
Khaz said:
You need to decide what sort of tube you want. For the Wii you are better off with a widescreen TV, and it will most likely be 100Hz. 100Hz reduces flickering but is incompatible with light guns.
Click to expand...

I don't think I will be playing that much of Wii games on CRT - a good share of Wii games looks awesome on LCD TV being played on Wii U. Not really sure about Xbox though. Anyways, I think I might pass on widescreen TVs, especially if you say everything else looks better on 4:3 TV.

Khaz said:
Progressive signal depends on the cable. With RGB you can have 240p or 480i, depending on what the console sends. 480p is only via Component only, and CRT with Component are quite rare.
Click to expand...

Is that so? My LG Flatron RT-21FB50EQ has one, and these models were quite common, alongside with other Flatrons with Digital Eye technology, which, I suppose, all had a component. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) On the other hand, I do not see that much info about this TV set outside of Russian segment of the Web, so it might be some sort of weird model for CIS countries only.

Khaz said:
Many people like the look and feel of Trinitrons. But no matter what brand or model, it's best if you can actually see it display stuff. If you can I would suggest you to take your favourite console with the 240p Test Suite so that you can detect any defect like geometry problems with the grid, or scratched glass with the checkerboard pattern.
Click to expand...

Well, that's definitely a must-do! I noticed geometry problems on my Flatron only after connecting the Wii and going to the settings. Thanks for the reminder and the tool, it seems to be quite useful.

Thanks for your help, especially for a round-up on formats and connection types!
 
K

Khaz

Member
Most of the time 480p was replaced by 100Hz when TV sets crossed the Atlantic. Your TV is really recent, most of the TVs you will find will be from the 90s. You don't need Component and 480p for retro gaming anyway, excluding the Wii only a few select games on the PS2 and Xbox output it. And for those you're better with a Widescreen too. Scart is the better option for everything else.

Geometry problems seem to be more present with slim tubes. I'd say focus on big old tubes if this is a concern for you.
 
D

DownGrader

Member
Khaz said:
Most of the time 480p was replaced by 100Hz when TV sets crossed the Atlantic. Your TV is really recent, most of the TVs you will find will be from the 90s. You don't need Component and 480p for retro gaming anyway, excluding the Wii only a few select games on the PS2 and Xbox output it. And for those you're better with a Widescreen too. Scart is the better option for everything else.
Click to expand...

Well, I am planing on concentrating on 6th gen, but considering that, for example, European GCN games don't have progressive mode support in general... yeah, I think it's not as important as I considered earlier.

Khaz said:
Geometry problems seem to be more present with slim tubes. I'd say focus on big old tubes if this is a concern for you.
Click to expand...

With slim tubes or with flat screens? The TV I've described has a standard-sized tube. I remember these "Slim TV" sets from mid-2000s (the ones that were advertised with something like "it's so slim, is it a plasma?"), however. But I think I will aim at acquiring a "Flat TV" (not a Flatron kind of flat, just with lesser curvature).
 
K

Khaz

Member
Slim TVs have a shortened tube with added magnets to make the electron beam reach the sides of the screen, whereas fat tubes have no deflection system and a tube as long as it is wide. the deflection may induce geometry problem and can be more difficult to correct with the factory settings. Flat screens have a similar system to correct the shape of the image (else the sides would be blown up because of the parallax).
 
D

DownGrader

Member
Well, so many ifs, buts and cans... I think I will start from visiting my local pawn shops and looking for the variety of TV set I can buy. Thanks for all your advices, they will really come in handy!
 
C

CoachKevin

Member
Just updated my Frammeister to 2.0 firmware. That reset all my settings, figured it would be a great time to see what everyone thinks is the optimal settings for picture in retro games.
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
Got my Framemeister yesterday.

Is there any way to make the scanlines not look terrible at 1080p? I'd probably rather turn them off than run at 720.
 
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