Support NeoGAF

[Peltz]

$80 is expensive for a 13. Offer $50 tops.

I think 80 is fair if (a) it's in really great condition and (b) he lives in an area where PVMs are hard to come by.

 

[Mega]

Turn back now. Unless you are making your own custom cables that end with BNC then just go with SCART. Because as you say, the most common, and best quality, custom cables out on the market now are all SCART. You only ever want one of those SCART to BNC adapter cables if you are using a PVM/BVM and only one of them.

Yeah, I have one of those adapter cables to plug the main scart switch directly to a PVM. But what scart switch options are there if you need many inputs? I've seen the lists of recommended ones. Most are either permanently out of stock, the remaining available ones are nearly all poor quality, practically all have few inputs, and the best ones are very expensive and hard to find (and still not having many inputs). Unless I'm missing something (PQ degradation?), I don't see the issue with using adapter cables for doing a BNC switchbox setup.

 

[Khaz]

But what scart switch options are there if you need many inputs?

You need to lurk the European Amazon stores. A good switch box is one that has output as a socket, not as a cable. That's pretty much it. You can daisy-chain them if you need a dozen inputs, and choose your generic male-male- Scart cables carefully.

The most inputs consumer switch boxes had was five, with three being much more common. We all daisy chain.

 

[missile]

Sorry for necrobumping this post, but I just wanted to take time to thank Missile for such a complete, well thought out response. Sorry I didn't respond back then (was really busy with school at the time) but I really do appreciate the incredible effort you put into answering my question. ...

No worries! And thx for the flowers!

... By the way, the problem persists with my wega, but it's something that I've just learned to live with, as I'm not tv savy in the least, and the thing is too darn big to take to any sort of repair shop (doesn't help that I live on the second floor....) Anyone else have this problem? Is it common? (EDIT: The problem my tv has is (*))

... But I have no idea how to test capacitors. I think it's not something that can be done with a simple multimeter, I suppose I'd need an oscilloscope or something like that.

An old trick: Change all of them. They are dirt cheap. Similar capacitor under
similar load will age at a similar rate.

Many of you have pretty nice 'n old CRTs loving them to death. However, if you
want your CRT to stay good for ages, you better, at a given point, replace all
its capacitors with new ones. This will prolong lifetime way beyond. It's very
important to have the capacitor working in very good conditions. For,
capacitor start to become resistors while aging, hence, they start leak DC
current which has a great influence on the components following any given
weak capacitor in changing their operational characteristics leading to an
extended wear of these components as well.

... My Trinitron has a similar problem, the top first centimetre is shaky like the second gif. I didn't notice it when I got it as it was hidden as overscan before I tuned the picture. It doesn't always happen though. ...

Does the effect vary with the kind video input signal? And, does the shaky
oscillations damps out smoothly down the screen?

 

[Mega]

You need to lurk the European Amazon stores. A good switch box is one that has output as a socket, not as a cable. That's pretty much it. You can daisy-chain them if you need a dozen inputs, and choose your generic male-male- Scart cables carefully.

The most inputs consumer switch boxes had was five, with three being much more common. We all daisy chain.

Thanks for the advice.I did look there, Amazon UK and ebay. I have the Hama AV-100S (output socket as you and others recommend) and I'm getting a second one in the mail soon to daisy-chain. It's just enough for now but not future-proof if I get an itch for more systems (PC Engine, switch from S-Video to RGB on N64, PS1/2, 240p MAME box, Saturn, Dreamcast, etcetera).

Also these bulky plastic wedges are surprisingly big and take up a lot of space for so few sockets. I'm weary of a third for space and image quality reasons. I think the best that's still available is the Shinybow SB-5525 with six inputs. A mere $180(!) on the EU site and I'm not entirely certain they ship to the US. I saw a used one on ebay once, with a significant markup if I recall. They're not available on the US equivalent sites.

Seems like slim pickings nowadays:
http://www.videogameperfection.com/2011/11/23/scart-switch-roundup/

 

[NormalFish]

Missile's posts are still just as hard to read on mobile as ever, I see.

 

[televator]

Cap replacement talk reminds me that I really need to continue practicing soldering. I have a few things in general that require some cap work.

 

[Khaz]

Does the effect vary with the kind video input signal? And, does the shaky oscillations damps out smoothly down the screen?

The shaking seemed pretty random there was no "rhythm" to it. It didn't seem to change with the input, although sometimes it would calm down, but not for long. It was on a thin area on top of the screen, maybe the top 3-5 scanlines. This monitor is in storage right now so I won't be able to make tests.

I suppose changing all the capacitors is a good advice. I need to open it anyway to tweak the convergence in the upper left corner, I'm just deathly scared of being shocked by my old tube.

 

[entremet]

Component on the Wii with a Trinitron looks amazing, especially for VC stuff.

I know it doesn't have everything, but it's a nice little retro setup if you want something more space saving.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Component on the Wii with a Trinitron looks amazing, especially for VC stuff.

I know it doesn't have everything, but it's a nice little retro setup if you want something more space saving.

Yeah it's a fine alternative, and thanks to 240p, i prefer Wii to my softodded Xbox for that purpose.

 

[entremet]

Yeah it's a fine alternative, and thanks to 240p, i prefer Wii to my softodded Xbox for that purpose.

Is 240p native? Or do you have to force it?

 

[Khaz]

Is 240p native? Or do you have to force it?

iirc you need to enter a cheat code in a VC game to go 240p, then all your VC games will be 240p forever.

 

[entremet]

iirc you need to enter a cheat code in a VC game to go 240p, then all your VC games will be 240p forever.

That's so wacky if true, but it sounds very Nintendodish.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

iirc you need to enter a cheat code in a VC game to go 240p, then all your VC games will be 240p forever.

I don't think this works for every game, but it should work for most of the 8/16 bit titles on the service.

It also only works on the original Wii. The Wii U can't do this, even in Wii mode.

 

[entremet]

I don't think this works for every game, but it should work for most of the 8/16 bit titles on the service.

It also only works on the original Wii. The Wii U can't do this, even in Wii mode.

I figured it out. Posting this for those interested. Looks really striking on a CRT via component.

http://retrorgb.com/wiivsclassic.html

Sadly, Nintendo wasn't as detailed attuned for the Wii U VC stuff.

 

[D.Lo]

iirc you need to enter a cheat code in a VC game to go 240p, then all your VC games will be 240p forever.

The Wii actually defaults to 240p mode, and the code was created a few months in by Nintendo because people's crappy LCDs couldn't display 240p.

I remember people whinging in forums that their VC games 'didn't work on component I had to use composite'.

PCE games always output in 480i, which made them look blurrier on CRTs, a big complaint near launch as well.

So the Retro RGB page is wrong in a sense - it's actually to switch to 480i mode. He must have already done it, and by doing it again is switching back to the default.

Or maybe later Nintendo changed it to default to 480i? I'm on a launch Wii that has been soft-hacked to hell so have no idea what a late adopter would experience.

I figured it out. Posting this for those interested. Looks really striking on a CRT via component.

http://retrorgb.com/wiivsclassic.html

Sadly, Nintendo wasn't as detailed attuned for the Wii U VC stuff.

The Wii U's primary output is HDMI, which doesn't support 240p.

They're actually too 'detailed' - they dimmed NES games to match the natural dimming of 240p's missing scan lines. Which pissed a lot of people off.

 

[entremet]

The Wii actually defaults to 240p mode, and the code was created a few months in by Nintendo because people's crappy LCDs couldn't display 240p.

I remember people whinging in forums that their VC games 'didn't work on component I had to use composite'.

PCE games always output in 480i, which made them look blurrier on CRTs, a big complaint near launch as well.

So the Retro RGB page is wrong in a sense - it's actually to switch to 480i mode. He must have already done it, and by doing it again is switching back to the default.

Cool. Good to know its a default setting.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I'm selling an XRGB-3 and some other junk, if anyone happens to be interested.

So the Retro RGB page is wrong in a sense - it's actually to switch to 480i mode. He must have already done it, and by doing it again is switching back to the default.

240p mode and 480i mode have different button codes, so putting the same code in twice won't toggle anything.

 

[Peltz]

I'm selling an XRGB-3 and some other junk, if anyone happens to be interested.

Surprised to see you're selling it. Do you have a new setup?

 

[Mega]

What options exist for VGA (PC) to RGB scart?

I got a VGA-to-BNC RGBHV cable that I used with a Groovy Arcade bootable Live CD running on the monitor at 240p. I almost gave up due to scrambled picture from having only either H or V sync plugged into the monitor's Ext Sync Input. The other sync plug had nowhere to go unless I went out and got a T connector as suggested. But then I read about using both the Ext Sync Input and Output for the H and V sync and it worked! I have no idea why... Anyway I would stick with this proven connection method but I want to reserve the monitor's RGB BNC plugs for the scart switchbox. The switchbox already has all the consoles running on it, and it's annoying to unplug/plug stuff from the back of the monitor for a single separate device each time.

Groovy Arcade was a nice test but I plan to run CRT Emudriver/Groovy MAME on Windows 7 with a supported Radeon 4xxx card. So would this cable work for hooking up that PC to the scart box?.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-TO-SCAR...em-/141494166641?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

I asked the seller to confirm but figured I'd also ask here while I wait for a response. I have seen cheap VGA to Scart cables which either gave the impression they would not work or clearly stated they would not work for connecting any PC to display hardware. I also think this ebay cable would not work because of incompatibility with sync signals. As mentioned in the OP, VGA=RGBHV and scart=RGBS.

This page seems to confirm my suspicion. http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/vga2scart/

The RGB signals in VGA and the RGB signals found in a SCART connector are electrically compatable, but the sync signals aren't. In VGA the vertical sync and horizontal sync are carried on separate wires, but in SCART they are both combined into a composite sync signal carried along a single wire. This circuit converts the component sync signals into a composite sync compatable with SCART. The red, green and blue signals can be connected through as-is.[/I]

I may need something like this adapter instead:
http://arcadeforge.net/UMSA/UMSA-Ultimate-SCART-Adapter::57.html

And the description for this item basically says the same as the above quoted:

Converts 15Khz RGBHV via a DSUB HD 15pin to 15Khz RGBS SCART signal.

 

[Khaz]

I'm on mobile so I can't give you links, but

In addition to building the cables and merging HSYNC and VSYNC (you only need a couple of resistors), VGA has a horizontal frequency of 31kHz instead of the 15kHz you need for your SDTV. There are drivers and softwares out there for most video cards. Look for "soft15khz", the original stuff was an english post on a german forum.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Surprised to see you're selling it. Do you have a new setup?

It's a spare.

 

[NormalFish]

It's a spare.

a spare 500$ upscaler hahaha

 

[entremet]

a spare 500$ upscaler hahaha

lol. sixfyfortyfive is serious about playing retro games right!

 

[justjustin]

Just curious, has anyone here set up a Raspberry Pi with an RGB monitor? I won't have any room for my old consoles and games at my next place, and I was toying with the idea of finding a Sony PVM on craigslist and rigging a Raspberri Pi to work with it.

Full speed emulation of consoles that use 240p is what I'm looking for.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Doesn't the pi output HDMI? Is there an analog rgb solution?

 

[Mega]

I'm on mobile so I can't give you links, but

In addition to building the cables and merging HSYNC and VSYNC (you only need a couple of resistors), VGA has a horizontal frequency of 31kHz instead of the 15kHz you need for your SDTV. There are drivers and softwares out there for most video cards. Look for "soft15khz", the original stuff was an english post on a german forum.

I don't know anything about making my own cables or general soldering. The seller did respond that H and V sync are merged to the composite sync pin:
http://www.retrovicio.org/ficheros/tutorial/142/vga2euro.gif
He sold the cable to someone with my monitor in the past and it worked.

I have heard of Soft15Khz. If you have a compatible video card, CRT Emudriver seems like the better option now.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120336.0

CRT EmuDriver is great for any emulator, but GroovyMame really gets the best of it, because you can tell it your monitor's limits and it is able to alter the existing modelines on the fly (when starting a game), thus giving you a virtually unlimited number of modelines. If your hardware can't handle the needed video mode, it will choose the next best available mode and slightly alter the speed of the emulation, to keep it synchronized to the screen's refresh. This is also great for running vertical games on horizontal screens.
The nice news is that there's no need to set or tweak single modelines anymore, you tell these programs what you need, what hardware you have, and they will do all the work for you.

The only reason I can find for using Soft15KHz instead of CRT EmuDriver is not having a suitable video card for the latter.

 

[Coda]

Does playing a 240p compatible game like SFIII: Third Strike on the Dreamcast work on a VGA box to a VGA monitor or is it pointless?

 

[justjustin]

Doesn't the pi output HDMI? Is there an analog rgb solution?

From their FAQ I found "There is composite and HDMI out on the board, so you can hook it up to an old analogue TV through the composite or through a composite to scart connector"

Looks promising if its beefy enough hardware. edit: Or, actually, I don't know much about video technology. Composite can't pass very accurate RGB information can it? So even with some rgb connector/adapter it would look just as bad on a Sony PVM as on any cheap-o crt tv, right?

 

[Khaz]

From their FAQ I found "There is composite and HDMI out on the board, so you can hook it up to an old analogue TV through the composite or through a composite to scart connector"

Looks promising if its beefy enough hardware.

I do remember a third party VGA add-on that used the parallel (?) port of the Pi. The guys in the Pi thread should know more about it.

 

[justjustin]

I do remember a third party VGA add-on that used the parallel (?) port of the Pi. The guys in the Pi thread should know more about it.

Oh, duh, thanks for the tip. I skimmed the thread and, one, turns there is no composite out on the Pi 2 anyway and, two, the HDMI-to-VGA solution is not available for purchase yet. Even then, it's not clear if a 240p output signal would be supported. Probably, but maybe not. So, maybe I'll check back into the possibility again later down the road. For now I'll "tough it out" with retroarch and shaders on my laptop.

 

[Khaz]

I was talking about this: https://www.pi-supply.com/product/gert-vga-666-hardware-vga-raspberry-pi/ It's an addon board for the Pi B+.

 

[justjustin]

Oh ok, I got mixed up but had what you linked in mind, and I missed the memo you could actually buy it, lol. Looks like it requires some soldering and preparation so I'd see how other people handled installing it. Thanks.

 

[TGMIII]

Anyone here have experience with the XRGB-Mini & a 60hz modded MegaDrive 1?

I've seen people say that it has issues but I'm wondering if firmware updates have resolved it or if it's just best to go with a NTSC/J system.

 

[Chomposaur]

Hello I really need some help or advice

I recently bought a scart to HDMI converter for my American Super Nintendo (I'm from the UK) and there seems to be a problem with the picture quality because I'm using a American SNES on a PAL TV the colours seem to be darker for some reason, whereas if I use my PAL SNES with the converter it is perfect I can see the pixels on the screen and the colours are perfect

How Can I fix this? Even though it has a PAL to NTSC switch on the box the colours are still washed. I will supply
Here is the PAL SNES running on the converter

Here is the American Super Nintendo running on the converter

Im really angry and upset I collect American Super Nintendo games because of the superior library and I want to play and import the best games. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[D.Lo]

Hello I really need some help or advice

I recently bought a scart to HDMI converter for my American Super Nintendo (I'm from the UK) and there seems to be a problem with the picture quality because I'm using a American SNES on a PAL TV the colours seem to be darker for some reason, whereas if I use my PAL SNES with the converter it is perfect I can see the pixels on the screen and the colours are perfect

How Can I fix this? Even though it has a PAL to NTSC switch on the box the colours are still washed. I will supply
Here is the PAL SNES running on the converter

Here is the American Super Nintendo running on the converter

Im really angry and upset I collect American Super Nintendo games because of the superior library and I want to play and import the best games. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

It's your scart cable.

PAL cables have resistors on the RGB lines which will darken an NTSC system.

You need to get a cable specifically designed for the NTSC SNES. Ironically enough I believe a PAL Gamecube scart cable will work.

Also, best to put quotes around large images so they don't take over the screen.

 

[Chomposaur]

It's your scart cable.

Ah thank you I thought it was something to do with the cable.

And yes I will add quotation marks next time. This is the first time I have posted images to neogaf and I am on mobile lol

 

[Charles Brandon]

Hello

I have a question which is RGB/FM related

I have three consoles hooked to my FM using a scart switch that looks like this

On the whole, the results are good. There is none of the image degradation that I often see people complain about with scart switches.

However, what does happen is that the image occasionally "glitches" -- the only way I can describe it is that it looks like what happens if you adjust the FM sync settings so they're out of whack. It happens about every 30 seconds sometimes, other times less often.

I was using my NTSC NES last night and it was happening and I tried unplugging the other two inputs (Super Famicom, Pal MegaDrive - both RGB) and it just made the problem worse!

So I've just taken the box out of the equation and now I just plug in each source as needed. But it's bothering me. I can't work out what the problem is. Most of the hits on google are discussing other image degradation issues like faded colours and noise and different sources bleeding into one another.

Does anyone know what is causing this? Should I just buy another switch?

 

[D.Lo]

Anyone here have experience with the XRGB-Mini & a 60hz modded MegaDrive 1?

I've seen people say that it has issues but I'm wondering if firmware updates have resolved it or if it's just best to go with a NTSC/J system.

All MDs I've used, including two 60Hz modded PAL MDs (a model 1 and a model 2) worked fine with the Framemesiter, though they all needed a sync boost, as the MD has a weak sync and you get occasionally sync dropouts (though they're fine on CRTs). But so do the 60Hz modded PAL Master System, Japanese MD1 and Mark III I've used incidentally, so the 60Hz modded PAL system is as good as any if using RGB. Looks and plays exactly the same as a Japanese console (except for the language stuff, but you can mod for that too if you want).

Just curious, has anyone here set up a Raspberry Pi with an RGB monitor? I won't have any room for my old consoles and games at my next place, and I was toying with the idea of finding a Sony PVM on craigslist and rigging a Raspberri Pi to work with it.

Full speed emulation of consoles that use 240p is what I'm looking for.

Forget the Raspberry Pi then, it doesn't output 240p.

I've messed around with one, despite the 'community' the output for retro console emulation is not acceptable for anyone even slightly discerning IMO. Blurry garbage.

By far the best non-real hardware option for such an idea is a Wii and Virtual Console.

Hello

I have a question which is RGB/FM related

I have three consoles hooked to my FM using a scart switch that looks like this

On the whole, the results are good. There is none of the image degradation that I often see people complain about with scart switches.

However, what does happen is that the image occasionally "glitches" -- the only way I can describe it is that it looks like what happens if you adjust the FM sync settings so they're out of whack. It happens about every 30 seconds sometimes, other times less often.

I was using my NTSC NES last night and it was happening and I tried unplugging the other two inputs (Super Famicom, Pal MegaDrive - both RGB) and it just made the problem worse!

So I've just taken the box out of the equation and now I just plug in each source as needed. But it's bothering me. I can't work out what the problem is. Most of the hits on google are discussing other image degradation issues like faded colours and noise and different sources bleeding into one another.

Does anyone know what is causing this? Should I just buy another switch?

Like I was saying about Megadrives above - that's sync dropout. Looks like the box has weakened the sync signal just enough that it fails sometimes.

Try turning sync up on the Framemeister? If not, you could add a sync boost circuit, but now we're getting tricky.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Like I was saying about Megadrives above - that's sync dropout. Looks like the box has weakened the sync signal just enough that it fails sometimes.

Try turning sync up on the Framemeister? If not, you could add a sync boost circuit, but now we're getting tricky.

Yeah turning sync up doesn't seem to have any effect (or it does but it just makes it worse). I guess I'll just do without the switch. Thanks again for the reply!

 

[justjustin]

Forget the Raspberry Pi then, it doesn't output 240p.

I've messed around with one, despite the 'community' the output for retro console emulation is not acceptable for anyone even slightly discerning IMO. Blurry garbage.

By far the best non-real hardware option for such an idea is a Wii and Virtual Console

Thanks for the feedback. I already have a Wii so that works out.

 

[TGMIII]

All MDs I've used, including two 60Hz modded PAL MDs (a model 1 and a model 2) worked fine with the Framemesiter, though they all needed a sync boost, as the MD has a weak sync and you get occasionally sync dropouts (though they're fine on CRTs). But so do the 60Hz modded PAL Master System, Japanese MD1 and Mark III I've used incidentally, so the 60Hz modded PAL system is as good as any if using RGB. Looks and plays exactly the same as a Japanese console (except for the language stuff, but you can mod for that too if you want)

So something like a C-Sync Scart/RGB cable should do or do I have to go the route of an external sync stripper?

 

[entremet]

Some poster posted in the retro setup thread him/her getting something like 12 PVMs from a TV station.

He got them for pennies basically

Quite the haul!

 

[BocoDragon]

Some poster posted in the retro setup thread him/her getting something like 12 PVMs from a TV station.

He got them for pennies basically

Quite the haul!

I would stack them up in a wall behind me like Shredder in the first Turtles movie. If I get angry... Wa-chaw! Shuriken a monitor or two.

 

[Mega]

Does anyone else worry that nice monitors will be impossible to find at a decent price in 5-10 years? I found at least a dozen PVMs (BMVs?) in my area's recycling center for $20 each and I only took one due to the weight and limited space at home. I may go back for another soon but I would not plan to take them all.

Right now it's silly to pay the hundreds that some opportunistic jerks are trying to charge on ebay and that doesn't include the shipping they tack on, but in maybe 10 years and if there's an ongoing retro fascination? There could be limited options with the way people love to hoard shit and resell it at high prices when there's a buck to be made. I'm not criticizing that gaffer either because at least he's selling them locally for very reasonable prices.

I'm hoping this becomes a moot point with advances in modern display tech or something entirely new and better coming along. I worry too much.

 

[entremet]

Does anyone else worry that nice monitors will be impossible to find at a decent price in 5-10 years? I found at least a dozen PVMs (BMVs?) in my area's recycling center for $20 each and I only took one due to the weight and limited space at home. I may go back for another soon but I would not plan to take them all.

Right now it's silly to pay the hundreds that some opportunistic jerks are trying to charge on ebay and that doesn't include the shipping they tack on, but in maybe 10 years and if there's an ongoing retro fascination? There could be limited options with the way people love to hoard shit and resell it at high prices when there's a buck to be made. I'm not criticizing that gaffer either because at least he's selling them locally for very reasonable prices.

I'm hoping this becomes a moot point with advances in modern display tech or something entirely new and better coming along. I worry too much.

Of course.

CRTs do have a shelf life too.

I have a Sony Wega Trinitron that is beautiful for retro stuff. It's small. 20 inch so easier to move. I got it for free too.

I do plan to get a Framemeister eventually.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Does anyone else worry that nice monitors will be impossible to find at a decent price in 5-10 years? I found at least a dozen PVMs (BMVs?) in my area's recycling center for $20 each and I only took one due to the weight and limited space at home. I may go back for another soon but I would not plan to take them all.

Right now it's silly to pay the hundreds that some opportunistic jerks are trying to charge on ebay and that doesn't include the shipping they tack on, but in maybe 10 years and if there's an ongoing retro fascination? There could be limited options with the way people love to hoard shit and resell it at high prices when there's a buck to be made. I'm not criticizing that gaffer either because at least he's selling them locally for very reasonable prices.

I'm hoping this becomes a moot point with advances in modern display tech or something entirely new and better coming along. I worry too much.

Would be cool if VR tech simulated CRTs in a virtual space someday, haha

 

[entremet]

Would be cool if VR tech simulated CRTs in a virtual space someday, haha

Hopefully more stuff like M2's stuff and the new Digital Eclipse projects come down the pipe for real preservation.

 

[Mega]

Would be cool if VR tech simulated CRTs in a virtual space someday, haha

I believe there have been attempts like one where you're in an arcade.

But I see people saying it's gonna take at least a good 4K set and great filters for convincing CRT emulation while sitting in your room. VR is very close to the face where you can see the screen imperfection, pixels, low resolution and lacking detail. 1080p VR looks bad and I bet 1440p won't past muster upon close inspection. It would probably take a crazy high resolution (8K?) for a VR display against your eyes to look perfect and match the experience of sitting a distance away from the equivalent 4K screen.

 

[psylah]

Would be cool if VR tech simulated CRTs in a virtual space someday, haha

New Retro Arcade does this. A Famicom in front of a CRT monitor that you can play. It recreates a CRT down to the pixels and scan lines. You can zoom right in.