Open it up to check if the internals will allow for an easy mod. RetroRGB has all the information to see if you have the right one.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
- Status
Open it up to check if the internals will allow for an easy mod. RetroRGB has all the information to see if you have the right one.
geniusbits
Member
Thanks, I am perpetually unclear about how lines work, how the horizontal lines are always variable by model but somehow the vertical lines are always the same, except when they aren't, and how that works with 480p without scan lines on 720p. But yeah I will keep in mind the D models. There is a 32 inch D model for sale in California for $750 that I want super bad, but not enough to drive across the country.
DracoBlade
Member
Awesome! Thanks! I'm still confused about CSYNC and if I should get one with set csync built in, what would you recommend?
sixteen-bit
Member
Check with Baphomet. He mentioned modding his 3DO for RGB and even posted some screen captures.
Shame there's no way to correct the blurry 480i output tho :/
geniusbits
Member
Does the FZ-1 have S-video out?
Is there any good reason to own a 3DO? I'm unfamiliar with it and its library.
Im genuinely curious about what people play on it.
IrishNinja
Member
when asked, bapho usually says "no"
speaking of, where's dude at these days
speaking of, where's dude at these days
entremet
Member
Road Rash!
EA stuff.
ST with the best arranged soundtrack.
Wing Commander.
I definitely want to add one to my collection. Budget wise, most likely next year.
I'll stick with composite or S-Video.
Hey! I've been out of the RGB scene for a few years now, and even though I LOVE my PVM 20M2MDU (on eBay those things are now triple what I paid 0_o), I'm thinking of possibly making some upgrades. There's a lot I'm behind on, so I'd appreciate any help:
1. When I purchased my MDU, I did it right when PVMs started becoming popular for retro gaming. I think it's an excellent monitor, especially because it has two RGB/component inputs, which no other monitors I've looked at have. However, I don't like how it can't do 480p, leaving my 360 and Dreamcast in flickering 480i. Now that there are many more known monitors, are there any that would be a clear upgrade over mine? More importantly, an upgrade worth $500+ or whatever they cost? Probably not, but shoot, maybe! I liked my MDU so much I managed to snag a second brand new never opened one for $150 with free shipping, and for all I know that was a stupid idea (it's a BIG box >_>).
2. Is there a surefire way to convert 480i to 240p? I had no luck when I tried several years back; it'd mostly just be for CAVE games on my 360.
3. There are several new PC games I'd like to play on my PVM in 240p, but I don't know of a convenient way to do it. My PC uses a GTX970, but I've found that this graphics card supposedly does the trick. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it'd be "easy" to use, because:
-I can't install this alongside my nVidia GPU and switch outputs whenever I want to, right? I'd have to open my PC case, pull out my nVidia card, and keep the ArcadeVGA as my sole GPU.
-I'd have to build a new PC just for 240p games. Is that what people who use this do?
Lastly, is there a list anywhere of modern games that would possibly benefit from 240p? Primordia actually has a 320x240 resolution option, but I don't see anything about people using it. Read Only Memories could look amazing as well.
Thanks!
1. When I purchased my MDU, I did it right when PVMs started becoming popular for retro gaming. I think it's an excellent monitor, especially because it has two RGB/component inputs, which no other monitors I've looked at have. However, I don't like how it can't do 480p, leaving my 360 and Dreamcast in flickering 480i. Now that there are many more known monitors, are there any that would be a clear upgrade over mine? More importantly, an upgrade worth $500+ or whatever they cost? Probably not, but shoot, maybe! I liked my MDU so much I managed to snag a second brand new never opened one for $150 with free shipping, and for all I know that was a stupid idea (it's a BIG box >_>).
2. Is there a surefire way to convert 480i to 240p? I had no luck when I tried several years back; it'd mostly just be for CAVE games on my 360.
3. There are several new PC games I'd like to play on my PVM in 240p, but I don't know of a convenient way to do it. My PC uses a GTX970, but I've found that this graphics card supposedly does the trick. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it'd be "easy" to use, because:
-I can't install this alongside my nVidia GPU and switch outputs whenever I want to, right? I'd have to open my PC case, pull out my nVidia card, and keep the ArcadeVGA as my sole GPU.
-I'd have to build a new PC just for 240p games. Is that what people who use this do?
Lastly, is there a list anywhere of modern games that would possibly benefit from 240p? Primordia actually has a 320x240 resolution option, but I don't see anything about people using it. Read Only Memories could look amazing as well.
Thanks!
Has anyone seen this? It was in the Framemeister thread on shmups forums
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1132716&sid=11bb8def64d87f097807a5a8479066bb#p1132716
WIP Scart stickers to help you know what you plugged in:
Cardboard proto:
Neat idea, I never bothered to label mines but I always thought I should every time I dwelled behind my TV. This is also much more clean than sticky tape.
It's missing the 2600 though, now that there is an RGB mod for it.
And the obvious hundreds of different European 8bit computers.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1132716&sid=11bb8def64d87f097807a5a8479066bb#p1132716
WIP Scart stickers to help you know what you plugged in:
Cardboard proto:
Neat idea, I never bothered to label mines but I always thought I should every time I dwelled behind my TV. This is also much more clean than sticky tape.
It's missing the 2600 though, now that there is an RGB mod for it.
Still waiting for that Jr adapter board 
One correction. I meant to say: "A" series is incompatible with older accessories in favor of A-exclusive parts, such as newer video cards.
I still think you have it backwards. Scanlines are horizontal lines that from top to bottom make up the vertical resolution. The max horizontal lines are fairly uniform across most CRTs since the majority are 15.7khz.
You see more variety among CRTs when it comes to TVL, the vertical lines that make up the horizontal resolution. At 800 and up, it's just about impossible to see them at normal playing distance. You can see them more easily with photos captured by a good camera.
480p isn't displaying on a 720p screen. These aren't fixed pixel displays. 480p or 720p capability basically means that the CRT is faster at drawing horizontal lines than a monitor that maxes out at around 240p . There are no discernible scanlines because they're practically invisible. Heck, scanlines at 240p are sometimes hard to see on ordinary, non-pro CRT screens.
I still think you have it backwards. Scanlines are horizontal lines that from top to bottom make up the vertical resolution. The max horizontal lines are fairly uniform across most CRTs since the majority are 15.7khz.
You see more variety among CRTs when it comes to TVL, the vertical lines that make up the horizontal resolution. At 800 and up, it's just about impossible to see them at normal playing distance. You can see them more easily with photos captured by a good camera.
480p isn't displaying on a 720p screen. These aren't fixed pixel displays. 480p or 720p capability basically means that the CRT is faster at drawing horizontal lines than a monitor that maxes out at around 240p . There are no discernible scanlines because they're practically invisible. Heck, scanlines at 240p are sometimes hard to see on ordinary, non-pro CRT screens.
IrishNinja
Member
i like em! i totally just printed system logos to fit on mine though, don't think i'd change it up - oh, and when traveling i found this Mario vs Sonic magazine thing years ago, used some stickers it had for other system indicators, haha
geniusbits
Member
Pretty good version of Samurai Showdown, Star Control 2, Alone in the Dark. Honestly most of the good games were multi platform, but I had one as a kid and love it still. If you need convincing watch Classic Game Rooms review of Need for Speed on 3DO, it's his best review IMO.
geniusbits
Member
Fair enough, I meant to say horizontal resolution not lines.
And as for scan lines on non-pro TVs, they are thick as f&*% on my KV-32FV310.
I wish there were more videos explaining some aspects of video tech.
1. Any SD BVM would be a worthy upgrade. The BVM-D20F1U or PVM-20L5 would be the most common and viable HD upgrades, but try not to spend anywhere near $500. Besides Wii, Gen 7 consoles should be played on HDTVs. Where did you get the new monitor?
2. Search around the shmups forums. I think you'll need an Extron RGB unit for 480i to 240p and an Extron Emotia for 480p to 240p. That's all I remember.
3. That card is primarily for playing old arcade games on MAME and likely too weak for any newer PC games. Yeah, you will basically need a second PC configured entirely for low-res Windows gaming. It's doable but I did not find a list or documentation for doing this properly because, as mentioned, this is all primarily for accurate arcade gaming, not shoehorning modern gaming to low resolutions (hit or miss results). FYI, setup for arcade gaming alone was a surprisingly annoying process and you can damage your CRT along the way if you mess up certain settings.
What I posted earlier in this thread:
I used CRT Emudriver, which requires Windows XP or 7, and a Radeon HD 4000 series card or older (edit: not HD 5000). Emudriver allows a PC to run low resolutions. It works superbly with Groovy Mame at auto switching in-game resolutions instantly to match the selected arcade game's native res. But none of that applies to running PC games. The driver package comes with a program for generating custom resolutions and another for manually switching desktop resolution.
My impressions:
It really depends on the game and sometimes individual pieces of in-game art. There are some standout games for me so far. Others look fine, they're just okay and I wouldn't fuss with them on a CRT much (Retro City, Hotline, Lone Survivor). And some really do look awful with scanlines (Gianna, Rayman, Shank).
But to my eyes, Shovel Knight, Axiom and Freedom Planet look better WITH scanlines and CRT phosphor glow. I have a good camera that has taken dozens of shots and none truly do the live picture justice. Most shots are either blown the hell out, the opposite: dim, flat and not as colorful, or off focus.
The same games look flat, boring and sterile on my plasma 15 feet away.
D.Lo
Member
Just tape on a printed label:Has anyone seen this? It was in the Framemeister thread on shmups forums
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1132716&sid=11bb8def64d87f097807a5a8479066bb#p1132716
WIP Scart stickers to help you know what you plugged in:
Neat idea, I never bothered to label mines but I always thought I should every time I dwelled behind my TV. This is also much more clean than sticky tape.
It's missing the 2600 though, now that there is an RGB mod for it.And the obvious hundreds of different European 8bit computers.Still waiting for that Jr adapter board
They're also missing Mark III!
Oh man, don't say that, you'll keep me up at night thinking "it could be better~"
. The BVMs certainly sound nice, it's a shame I didn't know about them earlier. Still, the BVMs look like they can be iffy with having multiple ports (depending on how many boards it has), and the 20L5 seems to only have one RGB input. On my MDU, I use RGBHV for 5 consoles, and the component input for my Wii (which doubles as my DVD player).It's true, I play my 360 via RGB SCART, and I must be one of the only people to do so, because at the time I couldn't find ANY info about it besides the cable existing. I couldn't even find it for sale in a European store! I only play CAVE games in TATE on it though, and it's reminiscent of the arcade. 480i is a bummer, but cheaper than buying the arcade PCBs.
I got the brand new monitor from an eBay listing, advertising them for $200+$80 shipping. They were in a warehouse and apparently a company was selling them off. None of them sold after a week, and the price was lowered to $150+shipping. Again none sold and they were relisted for $150+free shipping. I snagged one, and some other lucky guy did too (2 of 10 for sale). After that they were never relisted again, so they may've been destroyed. It was indeed brand new, aside from me opening the box to check. I liked my first (heavily used) MDU so much I wanted a backup so I could enjoy retro games on them for decades to come (as I read the phosphor in most PVMs lasts 30-35 years on average use). It's still in its giant box inside my closet. It's too bad I can't check the hour count to make sure it's new, but it looked immaculate.
Ah, the Extron was my go-to solution back then, and it didn't help too much. Nice to know others are though, it may've just been my setup. That or the MDU has a better deinterlacer than I give it credit for.
Sounds like I'll just stay away from modern true 240p PC games, thanks for all the info!
geniusbits
Member
There's a PVM 14M2U being given away on CL. Location is the Upper West Side of NYC.
entremet
Member
geniusbits
Member
Looks like a lock to me. I guess be safe during pickup? Come to think of it if someone wanted to abduct a retro gamer this would be a great way.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
About to get in the car to pick up my glorious LaCie 22-inch monitor.
14M2U is a great standard PVM. Many would say it's the perfect middle ground between pro-grade and consumer grade. Enjoy!
entremet
Member
Nah. Dude let me know someone claimed it. Thanks, though.
IrishNinja
Member
updated my framemeister profiles last night - this guy's got damn near every system down, and some games too like F-Zero GX. gonna have fun messing with them soon!
NormalFish
Banned
I think folks in the shmups thread agreed that any gamecube game using a similar widescreen set up to FZero GX should work with that profile. Not positive, though.
IrishNinja
Member
kinda makes sense...what other GC games used 16:9 though? i forget offhand.
IrishNinja
Member
thanks man! hmm, looks like
Die Hard Vendetta (note: this is not a good game)
Eternal Darkness
F-Zero GX
Gun
Hulk: Ultimate Destruction (i forget if i have this on GC or PS2)
Pac-Man World Rally
Soul Calibur II
Star Fox Adventures
Super Monkey Ball
Timesplitters
well, ill get some use out of this, cool!
geniusbits
Member
Damn sorry, there are always some BVMs and PVMs in the NYC area on CL but that was the only one I've seen for free yet.
NormalFish
Banned
Any of you florida folks figure out where to look for production monitors? Tampa/Jacks/Orlando would all be fine but I've had very little luck, only listings I've seen (in my admittedly shallow search) hasn't listed any specifics at all.
Any brand / model number? What part of the world are you in? What sort of "retro" are you interested in?
entremet
Member
Yes and there are pricey. Ask Peltz.
Could anybody help tell me what tv this is and if it is decent for retro gaming?
Looks like a wide screen trinitron. Could be HD--1080i? Those are great if you have the space. It will serve you well up until PS2 generation.
IrishNinja
Member
ive a few friends here in MIA with little to no luck, which is weird given the broadcasting and hospital districts...my personal one came from a buddy who upgraded to a BVM. another buddy up by Merit Island had a few on hand but they were either really small or didn't support RGB.
NormalFish
Banned
hm... Guess I'll monitor Jacks and the local one. Shands is nearby so in theory something could pop up. Still not going to be very attentive, though. I hate browsing craig's list.
IrishNinja
Member
i know, man...and it's such a crapshot. last thing you want is to drive over somewhere just to find out the colors are garbage or something.
speaking of, mine still has interference in the upper left hand corner...its right next to the receiver/speaker so that's my best guess.
speaking of, mine still has interference in the upper left hand corner...its right next to the receiver/speaker so that's my best guess.
I do have an early model after all!=O
blast processed
Member
Well, just got my scart to RGB converter and audio extractor today. Cables will be here tomorrow. I know how I'm spending my Saturday Night.
Should be very easy to mod it then.
Edit: What's the model no.? If it's early enough you won't need to mod in csync.
They actually do take component. No converter necessary. You just need bnc to rca adapters. Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005B4O4GG/?tag=neogaf0e-20
You can switch between Component and RGB with the touch of a button. It's really handy for GCN, Wii, and OG Xbox which don't output RGB in North America.
Some PVMs are a little annoying when it comes to switching between component and RGB. There is no button and you have to go into the basic menu each time you need to switch. I think a Sony RM-854 studio monitor remote control would help in such a case. It has dedicated buttons for both modes.
theSlacker
Member
And so the next step was taken.
You invented time travel to place an order later today? But to what end?
Hello guys, i have a problem with my PVM, maybe someone can help me.
I noticed that lately i'm experiencing video sync loss on my PVM, and i don't know if it's something with the monitor or is it the Scart switch, or something else.
This is the Scart switch i use , it has R, G, and B rca output, plus a video rca that i use for sync:
I've uploaded 2 videos to youtube with the sync loss on my N64, sometimes it displays on the monitor that "No sync" message and sometimes it doesn't.Also it happens with other consoles too.
https://youtu.be/yOcOh1XyLHs
https://youtu.be/CvvSkNYRQpA
EDIT: the monitor model is PVM-20M2E
I noticed that lately i'm experiencing video sync loss on my PVM, and i don't know if it's something with the monitor or is it the Scart switch, or something else.
This is the Scart switch i use , it has R, G, and B rca output, plus a video rca that i use for sync:
I've uploaded 2 videos to youtube with the sync loss on my N64, sometimes it displays on the monitor that "No sync" message and sometimes it doesn't.Also it happens with other consoles too.
https://youtu.be/yOcOh1XyLHs
https://youtu.be/CvvSkNYRQpA
EDIT: the monitor model is PVM-20M2E
20M4E is insanely high quality. It's got 800 lines. It will have some thick black scanlines on 240p content if that's your fetish. But that doesn't really resemble the CRTs we grew up with back in the day - it's extremely sharp and vibrant in comparison. It makes games look better and clearer than you've ever seen in your life.
The 2054QM is a step down. It has 600 lines... but some people prefer this. It will have thinner, but still very discernible scanlines on 240p stuff. It will look closer to a consumer set, but still be a step up in quality and sharpness and things will still pop nicely. This is like a very high quality monitor you'd see in an arcade machine in the late 90s/early 2000s.
In other words, yes. But be careful with the 2054QM... it's a very old model of PVM. Make sure it's not worn out.
- Status