baphomet
Member
I usually get them in like 3-4 days from ordering.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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I usually get them in like 3-4 days from ordering.
The primary advantage of flat TVs was/is that their tubes can be made shorter.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I'm currently testing my LaCie monitor and I'm SHOCKED by the difference in IQ made by using different VGA cables.
The ones I used for the first time were the same ones I used with my ancient HTPC. I thought they worked fine with my parent's old Samsung LCD TV, but the IQ with the LaCie is AWFUL. Lots of chromatic aberration and odd image doubling. I switched to the now old and dirty LaCie provided cables and all the sudden everything looks so much better.
I'm going to try all the VGA cables I have around here and see which ones provides the best IQ of the bunch. I really wasn't expecting something so drastic, specially considering all the VGA cables I have came with all the monitors I've owned over the years, and none of them were from crappy, no-name brands.
I'm also shocked by how different high resolution CRT monitors look when compared to an LCD display. It's been so long since I used them I couldn't remind how "fuzzy" they were even at the highest res available.
The ones I used for the first time were the same ones I used with my ancient HTPC. I thought they worked fine with my parent's old Samsung LCD TV, but the IQ with the LaCie is AWFUL. Lots of chromatic aberration and odd image doubling. I switched to the now old and dirty LaCie provided cables and all the sudden everything looks so much better.
I'm going to try all the VGA cables I have around here and see which ones provides the best IQ of the bunch. I really wasn't expecting something so drastic, specially considering all the VGA cables I have came with all the monitors I've owned over the years, and none of them were from crappy, no-name brands.
I'm also shocked by how different high resolution CRT monitors look when compared to an LCD display. It's been so long since I used them I couldn't remind how "fuzzy" they were even at the highest res available.
geniusbits
Member
You're saying HD CRTs look bad?
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Oh, no, but even high res CRTs look surprisingly soft after so many years of ultra crispy, perfectly drawn LCD pixels.
Are you sure your hi res CRT isn't just aging poorly? I feel like they look razor sharp when properly configured and not worn out. Look at this shot taken by Bancho:
And that's just offscreen with a camera. I imagine it's even sharper/more vibrant in person. If anything, I feel like CRTs are clearer than LCDs due to the far better contrast ratio, color separation, and very fast refresh rates.
NormalFish
Banned
While I understand where you're coming from, I think you're part of a very small minority with this view lol.
sir_kevith
Member
That pic definitely is like what I get out of my 25" Sharp Tube that I swapped into my MVS. I don't have the best pic but I think TVs with a shadow mask look quite a bit different than the PVMs which use an aperture grill. The horizontal scanlines aren't as pronounced as your picture illustrates.
Here's the only detailed pic I have of the Sharp tube in action:
I have better geometry on this guy than my PVM but I guess that's expected too. I noticed that Trinitrons are only curved one way horizontally while shadow mask TVs are curved vertically and horizontally more like a bubble. I'm wondering if that's why shadow mask Tubes tend to have better geometry?
I love my CRT for playing games, watching films, I think they are better than modern flat panels for the reasons listed. But for my computer and my working screen, I'll take an LCD over anything else. I don't care for my scanlines, my contrast ratio and levels of black when I spend hours on a screen working on stuff. Flat panels were a blessing for the workspace. But for entertainment, I'll keep my CRT until the end.
StevieWhite
Member
Just got a Toro. Super pumped to put it through the paces. Any tips on how to maximize the experience?
Weed?
I agree with you on this.
geniusbits
Member
When I bought my first LCD in 2005 I thought the HD CRTs looked better than the LCDs by far and as good or better than the plasma displays. I ended up buying my TV because you couldn't get a 55" CRT and at that time this thing looked very impressive because of the size. Even then though, when I didn't know anything about the technology of the displays, I thought the glass CRT screens looked better than the plastic LCD ones.
geniusbits
Member
I'm looking at a professional plasma display on eBay and wondering if it's worth it to match with the Framemeister. NEC PX-50XM4A, it's 720p/1080i resolution, which is fine by me since my current display is only 720p LCD projection. This has the advantages of being wall mountable (although it's almost 100 lbs), is plasma and therefore probably nicer of a screen, and super long life since its graded for professional use. Negatives are no HDMI input, so I would need an HDMI to DVI converter. What do you guys think?
StevieWhite
Member
Sold.
Depends on the price.
geniusbits
Member
Asking $325, OBO so I'm thinking of offering $250.
That plasma's native resolution seems to be 1365 x 768, which might result in uneven looking scanlines with the Framemeister.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
My then-budget-priced CRT monitor from 2003 looks sharper than most LCDs put next to it, and especially so if the LCD isn't running at native res.
Just used it as an extra MvC3 setup last weekend. 720p Xbox 360 games look pretty nice on a VGA monitor.
I tried my 360 games on a VGA monitor and I have to agree!
BONKERS
Member
My VGA CRT i've got in the closet is razor sharp as well. The only problem I think is the mediocre DAC on most modern graphics cards to support VGA.
It results in some low frequency noise that appears almost similar ish to grain.
Might? it most likely will. Unless it offers an unscaled 1280x720p option (Some do)
Even cheap VGA CRT monitors that came standard with computers were no joke in those years. I had a gateway PC monitor that was glorious. Wish I still had it :-/
geniusbits
Member
Why? The extra 48 lines or the ratio?
D.Lo
Member
Here's something interesting.
If you have a PAL TV, RF-only NTSC consoles cannot ever display on the screen. You can usually tune in a fuzzy black and white picture with no sound at best. Even if the TVs are NTSC compatible via other inputs, it's extremely unlikely they support NTSC over RF.
You can mod most RF-only systems, but I am not touching my SG1000, Color TV game 6, or square button Famicom, so they just literally cannot be used.
I got myself a very cheap 'RF to VGA' box - effectively an external analogue NTSC TV capture card.
I can tune in these consoles, and the output is fantastic. Video and sound are really quite comparable to composite. And the scaling, for what it is of a fuzzy image, is quite solid too.
I'll be doing a bit of a write up about it when I've done some more tests, but it's AU$30 well spent so far!
If you have a PAL TV, RF-only NTSC consoles cannot ever display on the screen. You can usually tune in a fuzzy black and white picture with no sound at best. Even if the TVs are NTSC compatible via other inputs, it's extremely unlikely they support NTSC over RF.
You can mod most RF-only systems, but I am not touching my SG1000, Color TV game 6, or square button Famicom, so they just literally cannot be used.
I got myself a very cheap 'RF to VGA' box - effectively an external analogue NTSC TV capture card.
I can tune in these consoles, and the output is fantastic. Video and sound are really quite comparable to composite. And the scaling, for what it is of a fuzzy image, is quite solid too.
I'll be doing a bit of a write up about it when I've done some more tests, but it's AU$30 well spent so far!
entremet
Member
Remember the classic commodore monitors. They had RCA inputs which made it easy to connect a NES or a SMS to them.
The display was also leagues better than most consumer grade TVs at the time, even with a composite connection.
Because it will be scaling by a weird factor (1.06666...) to fill those extra lines, unless it gives you an option for unscaled 720p, like Bonkers said.
Yes! Go Team RF!
socksfelloff
Member
I just grabbed that exact monitor last night for $50CAD. It apparently came from a private studio and looks like it has had zero use. So far I've tested 240p and 480i,bother over component from a wii, and both look excellent.
I'm trying to find if this monitor supports 480p. When I give it a 480p signal from my wii I end up with 2 identical signals on screen. Almost like PIP. I've never seen this before. Usually if a monitor/tv doesn't support progressive it goes all scattered like its missing the sync feed. Anyone have a definitive answer?
Interesting. Link to the box? PAL, too? Looking forward to your write up.
You may also post some comparison shots, if you can. :+
geniusbits
Member
So it would be off by less than a tenth? I wouldn't be surprised, as a pro set, that it might have some options for fixing that.
Depending if it has any glaring issues or the screen is going soft from tons of use, $50-$75. It's an old set. Around $100-$125 if it's still sharp (less likely) and problem free.
That's your PVM is malfunctioning because it doesn't do 480p. Don't continue testing this. Feeding higher than supported resolutions into a CRT may damage it.
The only HD PVMs are 14L5 and 20L5.
Found a guy selling PVMs, they are Sony PVM-1910.
This would be my first PVM, is this an okay model?
Edit:
Found this post with images:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/ind...HPSESSID=hcflfg9nit46tpi29o5c8crmv1#msg652775
It doesn't look that great. Similar to my consumer level 13" trinitron. Is this something that gets adjusted to be clearer or is it just not a great model?
This would be my first PVM, is this an okay model?
Edit:
Found this post with images:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/ind...HPSESSID=hcflfg9nit46tpi29o5c8crmv1#msg652775
It doesn't look that great. Similar to my consumer level 13" trinitron. Is this something that gets adjusted to be clearer or is it just not a great model?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Anyone in here care to help a scrub on his 1st step toward modding shit himself? Not the most relevant thread for this, I guess, but I figure there might be some people in-the-know around here.
I'd like to do a similar test to what is seen in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoJzobmdGzU
I want to wire an LED to the X or Y button of a Gamecube controller. Where do I begin? Of note: I've yet to hold a soldering iron, and the last time I messed around with electrical circuits at all was in an introductory college course years ago that I remember nothing from.
Any specific recommendations for a soldering iron or multimeter? Anything else I need for this besides an LED, resistor, and some wire? Where should I even be shopping for this crap? (I'm in the US.)
I'd like to do a similar test to what is seen in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoJzobmdGzU
I want to wire an LED to the X or Y button of a Gamecube controller. Where do I begin? Of note: I've yet to hold a soldering iron, and the last time I messed around with electrical circuits at all was in an introductory college course years ago that I remember nothing from.
Any specific recommendations for a soldering iron or multimeter? Anything else I need for this besides an LED, resistor, and some wire? Where should I even be shopping for this crap? (I'm in the US.)
Well let's try scaling a direct feed Framemeister screenshot as an example. Here's one that dark10x posted early on in the thread: http://i.picpar.com/Sxs.png
Here's the shot scaled by 1.066... with a bilinear filter (worst case scenario): http://abload.de/img/scale106.66avoki.png
There was a time, maybe 15 to 20 years ago, when I would say "head to your nearest Radio Shack", where you would find a grizzled, bearded, bespectacled man who would know exactly what you need to get started soldering and tinkering. Now, though, it's just a store where highschoolers sell you cell phone cases and off-brand headphones. Sad, really.
How much? I think it looks really good from the screenshot below, more arcade-like than late-model PVMs. When I have the space my ideal CRT lineup will include at least one quality monitor like this with lower TVL. Maybe a 20N6U with 500 TVL.
I think this has only 300 lines which is quite low. Maybe too low to properly resolve some SD content like PS2 and Gamecube? But I would worry most about age and condition of the unit since these are from as far back as 1984 if you look up the manual. I sometimes read that aging components are as much a factor as how much it was used. You need to test the specific unit in person and see for yourself if it's worth it. And by worth it, I mean like $50 if it's in OK shape. Don't let anyone try to convince you to pay more by quoting bloated ebay prices. The gaming CRT thing on there has gotten out of hand along with retro game prices.
What? First I've ever seen such a negative opinion of a Sony pro CRT. Obviously a studio monitor has a different look from a dedicated arcade monitor, but that doesn't mean PVMs are worse. Arcade purists I guess *shrug*
socksfelloff
Member
Thanks for the heads up! GameCube/wii still look phenomenal @ 480i.
Is this a Fellow torontonian that plays something other then madden/cod?!?!?
Ouch that's way too much. I've got 2 14" pvms kicking around if you're interested at all.
They all have their upshots and downshots. And look considerably different. I know one thing: I'd much sooner take a PVM over any Wells Gardner. At the very least for form factor (read case) for a gameroom.
The guy wants 100 for the unit. Also, the post I linked is from almost 10 years ago, probably when PVM units were more abundant, which might be why he thought that would be too much to pay for a PVM.
I might pass, if this unit could be nearly as old as I am, and it is low on lines, as you say.
There are a pair of 14L2s in what appears to be great condition for ebay auction, starting at $56 + $25 shipping.
If the bid doesn't get out of hand, that's a very fair price for a mid-2000s 14" PVM. In a few years, the people who were using these things transitioned to HD studio screens so it is likely to have low hours of use (and the seller says as much). I have one and it's easily my sharpest and most colorful CRT.
I would personally contact the seller and make a flat offer than wait 6 days.
If the bid doesn't get out of hand, that's a very fair price for a mid-2000s 14" PVM. In a few years, the people who were using these things transitioned to HD studio screens so it is likely to have low hours of use (and the seller says as much). I have one and it's easily my sharpest and most colorful CRT.
I would personally contact the seller and make a flat offer than wait 6 days.
speedlolita
Member
You guys spending over 100 on old PVMs are insane, and missing the point I feel.
My flawless PVM-20M4E was £20. Just be patient.
My flawless PVM-20M4E was £20. Just be patient.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Got an RGB cable for my Genesis in the mail yesterday. I'm mostly OK with s-video but my genesis has some banding on s-video (not great encoder I guess) and I figured I'd give it a shot since everyone raves about how good Genesis RGB is.
It's really shockingly fantastic. Everything just looks so crisp, there are lots of little details I've never noticed before even in games I've played to death like Sonic 2. The additional contrast / color separation improvements help way more than I expected.
It's really shockingly fantastic. Everything just looks so crisp, there are lots of little details I've never noticed before even in games I've played to death like Sonic 2. The additional contrast / color separation improvements help way more than I expected.
speedlolita
Member
Yeah, how anyone can tolerate anything less than RGB is beyond me.
I recommend to spend sub $100 for any typical PVMs. The older they are, the lesser they should be. I have two $20 PVMs from a local spot and a $140~ BVM from an auction that thankfully didn't get too much attention. Regardless of my luck and patience, this is not common even for my area where these studio monitors are in abundance.
If you're in the US especially the East/West coasts or in the UK, then it's unreasonable to tell someone in another part of the world to wait until they're dirt cheap. They're very difficult to find outside of a few countries. And to be honest, some PVMs are worth over $100 especially if they're flawless from being practically new or barely used. We're spending hundreds or thousands altogether on modded consoles, custom-made cables, scart switches, upscalers, rare and expensive games, Everdrives and more. Spending $100+ for a high quality display is not weird or missing the point in this overall context. At low triple digits, a display is still probably one of the cheaper components of a retro gaming setup and the most valuable.
For people that are desperate for a good CRT and the offers available to them are high prices for old worn junk, expand your search and look for other brands of monitors. JVC, Olympus (Sony rebrand), Ikegami, etc.
If you're in the US especially the East/West coasts or in the UK, then it's unreasonable to tell someone in another part of the world to wait until they're dirt cheap. They're very difficult to find outside of a few countries. And to be honest, some PVMs are worth over $100 especially if they're flawless from being practically new or barely used. We're spending hundreds or thousands altogether on modded consoles, custom-made cables, scart switches, upscalers, rare and expensive games, Everdrives and more. Spending $100+ for a high quality display is not weird or missing the point in this overall context. At low triple digits, a display is still probably one of the cheaper components of a retro gaming setup and the most valuable.
For people that are desperate for a good CRT and the offers available to them are high prices for old worn junk, expand your search and look for other brands of monitors. JVC, Olympus (Sony rebrand), Ikegami, etc.
Chinese sellers on ebay are your best friends when it comes to low cost electronics components. $1 for 100 resistors, shipping included, you won't get that anywhere else. Granted, you'll have to wait a couple of months to get them, you won't know what to do with the 99 other resistors, but it's cheap! I recycle the wire from old IDE cables that I don't use any more.
For the tools you can compare the prices with your local toolshop but there shouldn't be much price difference. Again, Chinese ebay prices are very competitive. You won't get industrial-quality tools, but for what you want to do, you won't need it.
Any basic soldering iron should do, get a beginners kit with a stand, iron, pump, it should get you started. Any basic multimeter should do too, they all have the basic voltage, amps, continuity testing. Don't forget the more general stuff like pliers, wire cutters, stanley knife, screwdrivers, etc. Oh, and do your soldering on a desk that doesn't mind being burnt. I don't have a designated working place, so I work over an upside-down kitchen cutting plank. It does the trick.
speedlolita
Member
Buy kynar wire, fuck lead free solder - get 60/40 or similar and as far as irons go, a cheapy 40w will get you going.
I use a £5 multimeter myself, has an audible continuity test and I can test voltage and resistance - my requirements don't require more.
I do have a Hakko FX-888D iron now, well worth the money when you get into the swing of things.
I use a £5 multimeter myself, has an audible continuity test and I can test voltage and resistance - my requirements don't require more.
I do have a Hakko FX-888D iron now, well worth the money when you get into the swing of things.
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