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[Ashby]

So no cool BVM or XRGB mini or anything, but I went ahead and bought a Sony kv 34hs420 since it was $20 at Goodwill. (poor employee guy almost died helping me load it in my car)

My plan is

PS3 60GB - HDMI - for all Playstation stuff
Wii (modded?) - component - for all Nintendo stuff
Genesis/SegaCD/32X - component - (need to order a Genesis component cable)
OG Xbox - component

S video when I actually hook up my N64, SNES, etc. I was hoping it had VGA for Dreamcast but no luck so I'll probably keep that on a monitor.

Questions
Am I better off with PS2 through component for PS2 and PS1 stuff?
What's my best option for Saturn? Just S Video or is there an affordable SCART to Component solution that's recommended?

Is this an HD CRT? I thought those were to be avoided.

 

[v0yce]

For Saturn, you'll need an RGB SCART to Component transcoder.

Is there a recommended one though? OP doesn't seem to have an actual recommendation and I would assume dealing with analog signals these things could vary quite a bit in quality.

Is this an HD CRT? I thought those were to be avoided.

Yeah, its HD. From my limited research I think it's best to get an SD set for older stuff, but most of the "retro" gaming I generally do is PS2/GC/XBOX era stuff so I think it's a good solution for me.

 

[Ashby]

Yeah, its HD. From my limited research I think it's best to get an SD set for older stuff, but most of the "retro" gaming I generally do is PS2/GC/XBOX era stuff so I think it's a good solution for me.

Oh yeah, absolutely then.



So I'm seeing some discussion over the real value of PVMs and I believe I can clear this up: PVMs are the only way for North Americans to get TRUE RGB. For Europeans it's as easy as getting a RGB-capable SCART cable and plugging it into pretty much any CRT they come across (I've read it's usually only one SCART port that accepts RGB on Euro CRTs though, usually AV1). Americans meanwhile are relegated to doing SCART-to-Component on their CRTs at best which is good but not TRUE RGB.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Americans meanwhile are relegated to doing SCART-to-Component on their CRTs at best which is good but not TRUE RGB.

Meh, Component is fine on my broadcast monitors which accept both RGB and component. I daresay nobody can tell the difference if I calibrate.

 

[Peltz]

Oh yeah, absolutely then.



So I'm seeing some discussion over the real value of PVMs and I believe I can clear this up: PVMs are the only way for North Americans to get TRUE RGB. For Europeans it's as easy as getting a RGB-capable SCART cable and plugging it into pretty much any CRT they come across (I've read it's usually only one SCART port that accepts RGB on Euro CRTs though, usually AV1). Americans meanwhile are relegated to doing SCART-to-Component on their CRTs at best which is good but not TRUE RGB.

It's nearly as good as RGB though and you'd have a very hard time telling the difference. The condition of the tv is far more important than whether you are feeding it RGB vs Component.

RGB and Component on my PS2 for example are very nearly identical. RGB has the slightest edge but that's only when I was looking very very hard for a difference, and even then, it was so super subtle that I never would have realized it if I had not been totally focused on the comparison. Component does the job perfectly well and no one should disqualify any TV on the basis that it only handles component and not RGB.

I guarantee that some sets do component far better than how other sets do RGB.

 

[Ashby]

Yeah, I mean I'm the guy who's about to go out and get a non-rgb Pvm so I'm not crazy either but for the hardest of the hardcore that seems to be why PVMs are so highly sought after. Preaching to the choir here I know haha.

 

[Peltz]

Yeah, I mean I'm the guy who's about to go out and get a non-rgb Pvm so I'm not crazy either but for the hardest of the hardcore that seems to be why PVMs are so highly sought after. Preaching to the choir here I know haha.

PVMs are sought after because so few consumer SD CRTs that process 240p properly via component are available in North America.

They're just well known among gamers because they've been tested and publicized by forum members. But they're not the be all and end all of image quality. I had a Panasonic broadcast monitor that put my PVMs to shame. And many arcade monitors at my local arcade look nicer than my PVMs as well. Plus not all PVMs are created equal.

I think people should focus less on whether a set is a PVM and give other brands more of a chance.

 

[Ashby]

PVMs are sought after because so few consumer SD CRTs that process 240p properly via component are available in North America.

I don't know, I see SD CRTs with component fairly regularly. Unless your point is that just because it's a SD CRT with component doesn't mean it handles 240p well which I don't know why they wouldn't. I thought you didn't get into issues with sets handling 240p until you got into HD sets.

 

[Beer Monkey]

PVMs are sought after because so few consumer SD CRTs that process 240p properly via component are available in North America.

I think that there's more of a knowledge gap than a TV gap. That is, people don't know which ones process 240p component correctly, yet there are probably several dozens of sets on Craigslist in your area each year for free to $20 that do.

Most SD-only CRT sets that have a component input can handle 240p in my experience.

 

[entremet]

I don't think I agree with the bigger = better idea.

While I love big displays, low res ones such as most CRTs look like ass from up close. And given that most of us won't have them in the living room like in the old days... well.

There's a reason most CRT arcades rarely went over 26". They looked way, way big. You'd only find bigger monitors in showcase cabinets. Granted, PVMs and the like look a bit better since they are razor sharp (I'd still do mean, ugly things for a NEC XM-29), but they are too large if you intend to play on them at computer monitor distances.

27 is my sweet spot for CRTs for me. That's what I grew up with.

I later got a Samsung GXTV, which I loved too. It's smaller, but had great audio. No S-Video, though, which was a shame.

 

[Peltz]

I think that there's more of a knowledge gap than a TV gap. That is, people don't know which ones process 240p component correctly, yet there are probably several dozens of sets on Craigslist in your area each year for free to $20 that do.

Most SD-only CRT sets that have a component input can handle 240p in my experience.

Right, this is what I meant.

 

[Mega]

After a bit more reading I think it'd be unlikely the VTR port will do RGB. I've also never seen any VTR cables. I'd wait a bit though and see if someone more knowledgeable has something more to add though.

That seems about right. VTR stands for video tape recorder and was a connector for the professional recording devices (not consumer VCRs). I have seen a few output diagrams and I think it only supports RF or Composite which makes sense if it's for a TV studio to record 480i TV broadcasts to tape.

I just passed on a BVM because the guy selling, despite not really knowing what he had, was told it was worth a lot so was pushing for Mega Bucks.

That's the worst. What did he want for it?

And if Mega is posting the OP, he should post in big bold letters that no one else should post until he secures those spots in the first few minutes.

LOL what? I'm not posting anything. I made a joke that the OP should just be enormous offscreen photos of CRT gaming to cripple the bandwidth of anyone who wanders in!

So I'm seeing some discussion over the real value of PVMs and I believe I can clear this up: PVMs are the only way for North Americans to get TRUE RGB.

That's not true. There are at least five other CRT manufacturers that made RGB monitors in the US. A couple continued well after Sony completely got out of CRTs. Ikegami still seems to make them or is clearing NOS.

 

[Beer Monkey]

That seems about right. VTR stands for video tape recorder and was a connector for the professional recording devices (not consumer VCRs). I have seen a few output diagrams and I think it only supports RF or Composite which makes sense if it's for a TV studio to record 480i TV broadcasts to tape.

There is Betacam component video "VTR" connector with 26 pins but I think any VTR pin connector with fewer pins is composite only.

That's not true. There are at least five other CRT manufacturers that made RGB monitors in the US. A couple continued well after Sony completely got out of CRTs. Ikegami still seems to make them or is clearing NOS.

Also, there were old computer monitors sold in the states and made by Commodore, Atari, and NEC (and several other makers) that could take 240p RGB. Some of us old guys were hacking consoles to feed them back in the mid 90s.

 

[Mega]

^Damn, I was a little kid with no awareness of any of this when you were hacking your machines for RGB! Geezer!

PVMs are sought after because so few consumer SD CRTs that process 240p properly via component are available in North America.

They're just well known among gamers because they've been tested and publicized by forum members. But they're not the be all and end all of image quality. I had a Panasonic broadcast monitor that put my PVMs to shame. And many arcade monitors at my local arcade look nicer than my PVMs as well. Plus not all PVMs are created equal.

I think people should focus less on whether a set is a PVM and give other brands more of a chance.

This encapsulates my own sentiments so well!

There's an element of misinformation surrounding PVMs as some sort of peerless standard. There are alternatives that will cost less and may be better, because a lot of PVMs are old and worn to an extent where they're no longer any sharper or accurate than lower end monitors and consumer sets with less wear. On newer ones, the tight focus of the scanning beam makes it so they have little of that desirable CRT bloom and their brightness is significantly lower than ordinary CRTs unless you crank up the brightness a ton, drastically lowering the tube's life.

If a person finds a good PVM or BVM at a nice price, that's fantastic... but there's definitely some overhype that's causing some to have tunnel vision and blindly chase after them without much further thought on why it absolutely must be a Sony PVM. At where prices are going, I'd rather recommend a scaler with a person's existing HDTV.

 

[Ashby]

There is Betacam component video "VTR" connector with 26 pins but I think any VTR pin connector with fewer pins is composite only.



Also, there were old computer monitors sold in the states and made by Commodore, Atari, and NEC (and several other makers) that could take 240p RGB. Some of us old guys were hacking consoles to feed them back in the mid 90s.

How would you get rgb from a NTSC console to a NTSC rgb capable tv though?

 

[Beer Monkey]

How would you get rgb from a NTSC console to a NTSC rgb capable tv though?

Hack a custom cable. People have been doing that for over 20 years.

 

[Funky Papa]

It's official: the universe hates me.

Just as I swear I'm done with CRTs (I mean, I have three of them nesting around for arcade builds) and with looking for cheap production monitors, I take a look at some buy and sell second hand apps out of curiosity and I find:

• A BVM-1416P going for €30 because it can't show blue (which is probably a laughable repair)
• A JVC TM-H150 CG with 100 HOURS and all docs for €120
• And nearly brand new Bang & Olufsen Beovision MX 2000 going for €40.
• A mint BeoVision MX 7000 complete with rotating base and high end B&O external speakers for €150.

I don't know what did I do to spite the gods, but they can fuck off right away.

 

[purdobol]

A BVM-1416P going for €30 because it can't show blue (which is probably a laughable repair)

Meh. To risky. Could be damaged gun.

A JVC TM-H150 CG with 100 HOURS and all docs for €120

Meh. To small.

Both B&O are cool though.
My crt gods are not that generous. Many 14" consumer TV's and only three 21" (cheap brands though). That's all in 50 km radius. Still hunting...

 

[Ashby]

Brought home the Panasonic BT-S1000N and hooked up my PC Engine to it. Yeah, this looks a lot better than Composite to my HDTV. Good lord. Wish I had a damn manual for it though. Can't find it anywhere online.

The button next to "VTR/LINE", when I hit it it either fills the whole screen or shrinks it down to the center of the screen. Should I assumed this a 16:9/4:3 switch?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

It's official: the universe hates me.

Just as I swear I'm done with CRTs (I mean, I have three of them nesting around for arcade builds) and with looking for cheap production monitors, I take a look at some buy and sell second hand apps out of curiosity and I find:

• A BVM-1416P going for €30 because it can't show blue (which is probably a laughable repair)
• A JVC TM-H150 CG with 100 HOURS and all docs for €120
• And nearly brand new Bang & Olufsen Beovision MX 2000 going for €40.
• A mint BeoVision MX 7000 complete with rotating base and high end B&O external speakers for €150.

I don't know what did I do to spite the gods, but they can fuck off right away.

Meanwhile I've checked Craigslist and eBay for local CRTs for the last six months and have gotten absolutely nothing. If the gods are spiting you I can't imagine what they have in store for me.

 

[Peagles]

It's official: the universe hates me.

Just as I swear I'm done with CRTs (I mean, I have three of them nesting around for arcade builds) and with looking for cheap production monitors, I take a look at some buy and sell second hand apps out of curiosity and I find:

• A BVM-1416P going for €30 because it can't show blue (which is probably a laughable repair)
• A JVC TM-H150 CG with 100 HOURS and all docs for €120
• And nearly brand new Bang & Olufsen Beovision MX 2000 going for €40.
• A mint BeoVision MX 7000 complete with rotating base and high end B&O external speakers for €150.

I don't know what did I do to spite the gods, but they can fuck off right away.

I just turned down 4 of those JVC-H150s for less than $100. I just don't have space lol. And they didn't have the input cards for component/RGB anyway. Broke my heart regardless lol.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Brought home the Panasonic BT-S1000N and hooked up my PC Engine to it. Yeah, this looks a lot better than Composite to my HDTV. Good lord. Wish I had a damn manual for it though. Can't find it anywhere online.

The button next to "VTR/LINE", when I hit it it either fills the whole screen or shrinks it down to the center of the screen. Should I assumed this a 16:9/4:3 switch?

Sounds like overscan/underscan to me.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Those two BVMs from a month or two back popped back up on eBay again. Probably a hell of a deal but I wasn't quite ready to drop $350 on CRTs right now. Bah.

 

[Ashby]

Sounds like overscan/underscan to me.

Very well could be. Would you hazard a guess at that TRAP/COMB button? That one I couldn't even guess. Tried Googling it but I just keep getting results for stuff about shotguns lol

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Very well could be. Would you hazard a guess at that TRAP/COMB button? That one I couldn't even guess. Tried Googling it but I just keep getting results for stuff about shotguns lol

trap and comb filters, respectively, I'd assume. My PVMs have "358 Trap filters" but I have no idea what they do and have no visible effect on the picture.

 

[televator]

Goddamnit! I'm gonna have to buy a bluray calibration disc. I've borrowed Bluray movies from my friends in hopes that some would have the THX optimizer on them, but no dice. What a stupid thing for publishers to overlook.

 

[Knobiwan]

So the consoles I own and intend to play heavily are the NES, N64, Gamecube, and PS1. I've already ordered GC-Video for the GCN, so what are my options for getting better signal from the others without spending a ton? RGB would be great it's just the mods for N64 and NES are >$100 a piece, and my TV doesn't have S-Video. I'm sick of composite so much...

Are the cheap S-video to HDMI converters even worth it?

And does the PS1 suport the PS2 component cables if my TV accepts 240p?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

So the consoles I own and intend to play heavily are the NES, N64, Gamecube, and PS1. I've already ordered GC-Video for the GCN, so what are my options for getting better signal from the others without spending a ton? RGB would be great it's just the mods for N64 and NES are >$100 a piece, and my TV doesn't have S-Video. I'm sick of composite so much...

Are the cheap S-video to HDMI converters even worth it?

And does the PS1 suport the PS2 component cables if my TV accepts 240p?

If you have a Wii, that's the best way to play Gamecube games since you can get Component out of it.

Mind you, the signal isn't quite as clear as the Gamecube's Digital Out but most people won't notice the difference and you don't need to put a second mortgage on your home to get a hold of the appropriate cables either.

Disregard, I read "GC-Video" as "S-Video".

In regards to the NES, if you're not playing on a CRT and don't mind not using original hardware, the AVS is a decent solution, or even the upcoming AnalogueNT Mini if you've got deeper pockets, though I'd wait for impressions on that before pre-ordering.

 

[purdobol]

Very well could be. Would you hazard a guess at that TRAP/COMB button? That one I couldn't even guess. Tried Googling it but I just keep getting results for stuff about shotguns lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_filter

And does the PS1 suport the PS2 component cables if my TV accepts 240p?

Yes. PS1/PS2 have the same propriety connector. You can make custom RGB cable for those but don't know if it's worth the effort tbh.

 

[Knobiwan]

If you have a Wii, that's the best way to play Gamecube games since you can get Component out of it.

Mind you, the signal isn't quite as clear as the Gamecube's Digital Out but most people won't notice the difference and you don't need to put a second mortage on your home to get a hold of the appropriate cables either.

Oh I know, the GC Video I mentioned in the post refers to the HDMI internal solution for GCN that Badass Consoles is offering for $120 installed. It takes the non degraded OG digital signal from the GCN and converts it to HDMI in an internal FPGA board.

I'm concerned now about the rest of my consoles and how to get off composite on them now that s-video isn't a reliable option, but the NES and N64 don't natively supports RGP over scart, so I'm not sure what my (reasonably priced) options are. I may just be SOL andhave to get the mods on those systems, however for that price I may as well just get an Ultra HDMI kit in the N64 and since I'm spending this much on internal mods I may as well learn to solder so I don't have to pay install fees on all three systems.

EDIT: Just posted but saw the earlier edit. no worries!

 

[Kiddy Dong]

So no cool BVM or XRGB mini or anything, but I went ahead and bought a Sony kv 34hs420 since it was $20 at Goodwill. (poor employee guy almost died helping me load it in my car)

My plan is

PS3 60GB - HDMI - for all Playstation stuff
Wii (modded?) - component - for all Nintendo stuff
Genesis/SegaCD/32X - component - (need to order a Genesis component cable)
OG Xbox - component

S video when I actually hook up my N64, SNES, etc. I was hoping it had VGA for Dreamcast but no luck so I'll probably keep that on a monitor.

Questions
Am I better off with PS2 through component for PS2 and PS1 stuff?
What's my best option for Saturn? Just S Video or is there an affordable SCART to Component solution that's recommended?

If the geometry is good then that will be a killer setup for your 480p consoles. Just keep in mind that 240p stuff doesn't look too hot on HD CRTs, and if you're hardcore about input lag then you will probably be disappointed. Many smash tournaments prohibit HD CRTs for that very reason, and the smashboards thread for lagless CRT setups advises against them entirely. YMMV however.

 

[theclaw135]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_filter



Yes. PS1/PS2 have the same propriety connector. You can make custom RGB cable for those but don't know if it's worth the effort tbh.

PS1 hardware outputs RGB, but not component.
PS2 and PS3 allow PS1 software to use component though.

 

[purdobol]

PS1 hardware outputs RGB, but not component.

Bummer :/

 

[Khaz]

Bummer :/

You can fix it with a cheap RGB-to-Component box though.

 

[Narroo]

Meanwhile I've checked Craigslist and eBay for local CRTs for the last six months and have gotten absolutely nothing. If the gods are spiting you I can't imagine what they have in store for me.

I swear it's regional. Do you live in the NorthEast?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

I swear it's regional. Do you live in the NorthEast?

Quite the opposite. Southwest.

 

[RedSwirl]

I think I might be in a position to plan to get an XRGB sometime later this year. I want to make sure it's the best choice for my situation and that I know the best way to get one.

I actually have a 14" CRT. It's just a basic composite set with mono audio. I only have enough space to hook up one retro console at a time, and I don't think I'll be able to keep this TV forever. My main gaming TV is a 46" LCD screen that's pretty much HDMI-only except for the single composite/component hybrid input.

My sub-HD machines are an original Wii (that I basically plan to use as a Gamecube), PS2, Dreamcast, N64, SNES, Genesis, and NES. I don't own anything above S-video cables for any of them, if even that (might still have some component cables for the PS2 and Wii).

 

[saveweyard]

I think I might be in a position to plan to get an XRGB sometime later this year. I want to make sure it's the best choice for my situation and that I know the best way to get one.

I actually have a 14" CRT. It's just a basic composite set with mono audio. I only have enough space to hook up one retro console at a time, and I don't think I'll be able to keep this TV forever. My main gaming TV is a 46" LCD screen that's pretty much HDMI-only except for the single composite/component hybrid input.

My sub-HD machines are an original Wii (that I basically plan to use as a Gamecube), PS2, Dreamcast, N64, SNES, Genesis, and NES. I don't own anything above S-video cables for any of them, if even that (might still have some component cables for the PS2 and Wii).

Depending on your TV it'll upscale 480p pretty well on its own. The XRGB will obviously be better, but it's not as drastic as the difference for 240p signals, which hdtvs can't even recognize properly.

The step up from composite to S-video is much greater than from S-video to RGB. Feeding an XRGB composite probably isn't even worth it. You're already that much money in, go the extra mile for some better cables and don't feed your top of the line upscaler a shit signal.

 

[Narroo]

Quite the opposite. Southwest.

You know what? Maybe it's just northern California. Maybe all these sets are coming from Hollywood or something. I don't know. Craigslist!

 

[gingerbeardman]

Just putting this here for future reference...

The B&O Beovision MX1500 is based on the same Philips CP90 chassis as the Philips 21CE1250 I bought recently. The MX1500 even has a Philips tube.

http://obsoletetellyemuseum.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/bang-olufsen-beovision-mx1500-chassis_10.html

 

[Serge85]

I was lucky to find a 14 inch PVM in my country ( which is very very hard) for a great price ( 30 USD), I was playing before on a 24 Inches Sony CRT with s video and it looked fantastic....But the PVM is another story, I made some "custom" rgb cable and modded some of my consoles (snes, genesis, CMVS) to take that input and.... O M G, I don't care about it's smaller screen, the games looks awesome.

I hope my pvm will live forever!

 

[BNGames]

I just posted up a short review of an s-video modded Sega Genesis I picked up fairly recently

Link: https://youtu.be/492ANVU_sV8

 

[Mega]

Most N64s can get RGB with a cheap and simple mod (RGB amp). It's not pricey and complicated like the NES.

• A BVM-1416P going for €30 because it can't show blue (which is probably a laughable repair)
• A JVC TM-H150 CG with 100 HOURS and all docs for €120
• And nearly brand new Bang & Olufsen Beovision MX 2000 going for €40.
• A mint BeoVision MX 7000 complete with rotating base and high end B&O external speakers for €150.

I have that JVC, it's nice. It has defined scanlines but it has a shadowmask(?) that makes it look different from a PVM. I dunno about the 100 hour claim. I'm pretty sure there's no hour counter on this model, but it is likely to be very low hours like mine. I have seen these pop up online often, they're all late 2000s mfg date and frequently appear to be like-new. The screen is 15" so actually the screen is a little bigger than the 13" PVMs. The only downside is it only comes with Composite and S-video and you need the optional video card for RGB and Component.

I just turned down 4 of those JVC-H150s for less than $100. I just don't have space lol. And they didn't have the input cards for component/RGB anyway. Broke my heart regardless lol.

You have one of the cards, right? Hold out for the 17" HD monitor! It's an awesome monitor, hardly takes up space.

 

[Peagles]

Most N64s can get RGB with a cheap and simple mod (RGB amp). It's not pricey and complicated like the NES.



I have that JVC, it's nice. It has defined scanlines but it has a shadowmask(?) that makes it look different from a PVM. I dunno about the 100 hour claim. I'm pretty sure there's no hour counter on this model, but it is likely to be very low hours like mine. I have seen these pop up online often, they're all late 2000s mfg date and frequently appear to be like-new. The screen is 15" so actually the screen is a little bigger than the 13" PVMs. The only downside is it only comes with Composite and S-video and you need the optional video card for RGB and Component.



You have one of the cards, right? Hold out for the 17" HD monitor! It's an awesome monitor, hardly takes up space.

Yup! It's in a 20" JVC I got for $50. I have my eyes peeled for one that can do 480p.

 

[Conezays]

I rarely ever see nice CRT's or PVM's in my area but found a PVM20M2U locally. Do I grab it so I have a backup PVM/upgrade to 20 " versus my 13 " one? Argh, decisions.

 

[Mega]

I rarely ever see nice CRT's or PVM's in my area but found a PVM20M2U locally. Do I grab it so I have a backup PVM/upgrade to 20 " versus my 13 " one? Argh, decisions.

If the price is right, yes.

 

[Laevateinn]

I rarely ever see nice CRT's or PVM's in my area but found a PVM20M2U locally. Do I grab it so I have a backup PVM/upgrade to 20 " versus my 13 " one? Argh, decisions.

Grab it and sell it to me

 

[Conezays]

If the price is right, yes.

207 USD/275 CDN. I currently have a 1354Q for reference. And it's already sold Surely I should get preferential treatment given it was my birthday yesterday?

Also, somewhat of a cross-post from the N64 thread but anyone have any experience/would you recommend the RGB mod for the N64 over s-video? I've read varying things about how its RGB output benefit is fairly minimal.

 

[Mega]

It's a marginal improvement at best. There are like three levels of blurring negating almost any benefits RGB has over S-video. I wouldn't go out of my way for it.

 

[Timu]

It's a marginal improvement at best. There are like three levels of blurring negating almost any benefits RGB has over S-video. I wouldn't go out of my way for it.

Colors are better with RGB over svideo though.