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US Presidential Foreign Policy Debate |OT| Please proceed, governor

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rodvik

Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20008687

"An average of 50% favoured Mr Obama, with 9% for Mr Romney, in the survey of 21,797 people in 21 countries.

Only Pakistan's respondents said they would prefer to see Mr Romney win November's election.

France was the most strongly pro-Obama (72%). Mr Obama's ancestral homeland of Kenya (18%) was the most pro-Romney."
WTF?

By the way it strike me as off that Kenya is called Obama's "Ancestral homeland" But the UK (his family has English & Scottish ancestry) isnt referred to as Romneys "Ancestral homeland".
 

strobogo

Banned
Romney's tactic of "well, first off, attacking ME instead of talking about policy isn't very presidential, Mr. President. Second, President Obama is terrible jerk face and I have plans, check the website for details" was pretty amazing. Especially the 3rd or 4th time he said that as a preface to do EXACTLY what he was shitting on Obama for. It was so blatant and hilarious, because of course Mitt Romney would do something like that and think no one would notice. 3 times.

Mitt looked way more angry and tense tonight, he couldn't hold his fake smile up. Obama looked to be mean mugging a bit, but I think it was his posture more than anything. I wish he would have mean mugged. The serious business face in the Libya portion of the 2nd debate needed a comeback.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I wish you wouldn't attack my views by insinuating that I'm stupid for voting for a "flip-flopper" or whatever. It seems to me that Romney only adopted the positions he did earlier in the year because he was trying to win the approval of very conservative people, and when the time was right he'd pivot to the center. That's what he did in the first debate with domestic policy, and that's what he did tonight with foreign policy. I don't blame him for shifting like that because you have to make the current Republicans realize you can't win on their views; you gotta move the party more to the center.

Romney is being very smart about this. By adopting new positions during the debate, he's saving the Republican Party a lot of headaches in the future.

I wanted to hold off on making a final decision until the debates concluded. I think I've given the president a fair chance, but in the end, Mitt won out for me.

So why do you think the moderate views are his real ones? Or, if they are, why do you think a republican controlled senate and house would even consider allowing him to enact a moderate agenda in the current climate?
 

Amzin

Member
So he lied to get deep conservative initial support based on a false premise and used his then-established position to try and redirect the party towards the center, once it became clear he was their only choice?

That's sure what it seems like. I was thinking recently that I would consider voting for Romney if he wasn't running as a republican. Too much baggage with that party nowadays, do not want. Romney going back closer to his Governor views was refreshing but it illustrates that he will flop around a lot to go along with the party. The only reason there aren't more prominent republicans calling him too liberal right now is that his view-swap has helped their chances immensely, which is more important when they can just gloss over the details of what he's actually saying compared with what he/they have said recently.
 

DjRoomba

Banned
One of four debates including a vice presidential debate and only one was on foreign policy.

One out of four is still too much. Like I said, does America really care that much bout this issue? I think thats issue Americans care least about. It seems to be of way too much importance for both candidates. Too much military spending, military focus, unusual/impossible aim to be harbingers of world peace. What is this
 

CrazyDude

Member
One out of four is still too much. Like I said, does America really care that much bout this issue? I think thats issue Americans care least about. It seems to be of way too much importance for both candidates. Too much military spending, military focus, unusual/impossible aim to be harbingers of world peace. What is this

The presidents whole job is based around foreign policy.
 

nib95

Banned
I wish you wouldn't attack my views by insinuating that I'm stupid for voting for a "flip-flopper" or whatever. It seems to me that Romney only adopted the positions he did earlier in the year because he was trying to win the approval of very conservative people, and when the time was right he'd pivot to the center. That's what he did in the first debate with domestic policy, and that's what he did tonight with foreign policy. I don't blame him for shifting like that because you have to make the current Republicans realize you can't win on their views; you gotta move the party more to the center.

Romney is being very smart about this. By adopting new positions during the debate, he's saving the Republican Party a lot of headaches in the future.

I just want to hold off on making any final decision until all the debates concluded. I think I've given the president a fair chance, but in the end, Mitt won out for me.

This is an assumption only. Truth is you have no idea where he falls, be it extreme right or more moderate. No one does really. Nor does anyone know where he'll fall if he were ever elected (who knows how badly he'd let corporate or lobbyist interests affect his decision making). But what we do know is that unlike Obama, Romney is quick to change views and policy not for the good of America, but for personal or political gain, even at the expense of others and even if it means serially lying. If this is the sort of tact you not only promote but support, It's incredibly disappointing. This is a guy who even now can't explain how he'd pay for his proposed tax cuts and increased military spend.

Personally I'd think such characteristics were completely un suitable for the position of commander and chief, where credibility and commitment mean a humongous amount.
 

pigeon

Banned
I think this went about as well as possible for the media. The disastrous first debate allowed them to spin out the horse race for a whole month. Now they can spend a week drilling down on Mitt's unready performance on foreign affairs and return to the Obama victory narrative they know is not merely more likely but more preferable. This win will give them room over the next two weeks to admit that some of the "toss up" states are really pretty solid for Obama, slowly bringing their viewers into the reality we inhabit, where Obama has solid and steady leads in enough of the country to put November away.
 

Gibbo

Member
Few reasons:
1. Media bubble. Right-wing lives in an alternate universe where Obama caused everything. Fox News is basically a hybrid between right-wing biased opinion, and the Romney campaign.
2. People forget that the economy tanked in August-Oct 2008, before Obama took office. So while a lot of people lost their jobs in 2009, Obama's policies quickly stopped the bleeding and turned things around. But people don't remember this.
3. Racism, likely. I have had email chains sent to me by relatives about secret Kenyan muslim. Look at Gallup's poll, which is +7 Romney. Regionally Obama is up by +3, except for "the south" (former confederacy rebellion southeastern states that defended state rights for slavery among other things) has romney +20.


thanks for clearing that up- makes a lot more sense now sadly
 

RDreamer

Member
That's sure what it seems like. I was thinking recently that I would consider voting for Romney if he wasn't running as a republican. Too much baggage with that party nowadays, do not want. Romney going back closer to his Governor views was refreshing but it illustrates that he will flop around a lot to go along with the party. The only reason there aren't more prominent republicans calling him too liberal right now is that his view-swap has helped their chances immensely, which is more important when they can just gloss over the details of what he's actually saying compared with what he/they have said recently.

I think if he actually ran on his governor views we'd probably be dissecting that, too. I don't think his governor views were anything to cheer for, really. Apparently his veto was overridden an astounding amount of times. He jumped on a few issues to look good (healthcare), but other than that apparently he was a hard ass that the state really didn't and still doesn't like considering he's losing there.
 

Shouta

Member
Man, I just got back to class and started watching the debate video and not even 10 minutes in and Romney contradicted himself... can't kill our way out but then he says his strategy is to interrupt and kill the bad guys. What the hell...
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
One out of four is still too much. Like I said, does America really care that much bout this issue? I think thats issue Americans care least about. It seems to be of way too much importance for both candidates. Too much military spending, military focus, unusual/impossible aim to be harbingers of world peace. What is this

Considering we've been at war for more than a decade, have sabers rattled in our general direction monthly, and the fact that everyone expects something from us, its kind of a big deal.
 

Canuck76

Banned
He's black, and the Confederacy is still not down with that.

MOVE ON

How many of you wanking liberals had a grand circle jerk when you "did something amazing, elect a man not only of race but a man that actually transcends race"

Seriously. He's black. That's great. Historic yes. A great sign of racial divides healed But come on now.

In reality Republicans are supporting equality more when they make it about issues and policies. Instead of this great liberal white guilt "can we overcome it? can we bring even the least of these into office? oh will the public accept it? are they even ready yet?" It's practically racist the way you make everything about the mans color.

He's a hell of a lot more than that.

(not every liberal does this but it's so annoying)
 

pigeon

Banned
One out of four is still too much. Like I said, does America really care that much bout this issue? I think thats issue Americans care least about. It seems to be of way too much importance for both candidates. Too much military spending, military focus, unusual/impossible aim to be harbingers of world peace. What is this

Foreign policy is pretty much all the president can actually do.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
MOVE ON

How many of you wanking liberals had a grand circle jerk when you "did something amazing, elect a man not only of race but a man that actually transcends race"

Seriously. He's black. That's great. Historic yes. A great sign of racial divides healed But come on now.

In reality Republicans are supporting equality more when they make it about issues and policies. Instead of this great liberal white guilt "can we overcome it? can we bring even the least of these into office? oh will the public accept it? are they even ready yet?" It's practically racist the way you make everything about the mans color.

He's a hell of a lot more than that.

(not every liberal does this but it's so annoying)

Name some new ones.

And I see more than enough "Put the WHITE back in the WHITE HOUSE" type bumper stickers to be done with other Republicans looking the other way as long they have anti-dem support.
 

pigeon

Banned
MOVE ON

How many of you wanking liberals had a grand circle jerk when you "did something amazing, elect a man not only of race but a man that actually transcends race"

Seriously. He's black. That's great. Historic yes. A great sign of racial divides healed But come on now.

In reality Republicans are supporting equality more when they make it about issues and policies. Instead of this great liberal white guilt "can we overcome it? can we bring even the least of these into office? oh will the public accept it? are they even ready yet?" It's practically racist the way you make everything about the mans color.

He's a hell of a lot more than that.

(not every liberal does this but it's so annoying)

The universe you live in must be nice, because in this one, there are still so many people openly hating Obama for his race (not to mention the Kenya-baiting, affirmative action, "not Presidential" stuff) that I know you wouldn't have posted something so ridiculous if you had even visited it for a week.
 
In reality Republicans are supporting equality more when they make it about issues and policies.

EL4w2.gif
 
MOVE ON

How many of you wanking liberals had a grand circle jerk when you "did something amazing, elect a man not only of race but a man that actually transcends race"

Seriously. He's black. That's great. Historic yes. A great sign of racial divides healed But come on now.

In reality Republicans are supporting equality more when they make it about issues and policies. Instead of this great liberal white guilt "can we overcome it? can we bring even the least of these into office? oh will the public accept it? are they even ready yet?" It's practically racist the way you make everything about the mans color.

He's a hell of a lot more than that.

(not every liberal does this but it's so annoying)

I love how badly you try to ignore shit like "Put the WHITE back in the White House!" and "Don't reNig!!" undertones that permeate a lot of the conservative rhetoric now.

Liberals have, at this point, moved on. It's a certain brand of racist conservatives that haven't.
 

strobogo

Banned
Before the debate, I think on Katie Couric's talk show, they had a preview of the debate. There were 3 people I believe, maybe two, but one of them was talking about how in the last debate, men were tuning out and reaching for their popcorn and snacks with all that women rights and health care stuff. Which in itself is fairly offensive, but the tone he had like he was completely disgusted that women's issues come up in presidential debates was pretty amazing. Why would men care about female health and rights issues? Most men don't have moms or sisters or aunts or grandmas or wives or girlfriends or daughters or female friends. Why, they'd rather just tune out and eat snacks than have to hear about any of that nonsense.


EDIT:
Also, the only thing "presidential" about Mitt is his hair. He's exceptionally rude (particularly in the last 2 debates because it worked for him in the first, so he went full speed with it in the next 2), will change "deeply held beliefs" at the drop of a hat if it will get him something, still thinks the Cold War is alive and well, and is openly antagonizing Russia/China/Iran out of some weird American has to have the biggest military dick thing, which we already do many times over. He's basically a caricature of an American president in a wacky 80s Russian political comedy. He also gets called on lies, then lies about those, and then lies that he lied about the first lie, because he never said any of it in the first place. Unless "presidential" is code for "white", there is nothing presidential about him. Except his fantastic hair.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20008687


WTF?

By the way it strike me as off that Kenya is called Obama's "Ancestral homeland" But the UK (his family has English & Scottish ancestry) isnt referred to as Romneys "Ancestral homeland".

White people only have ethnic backgrounds if they choose to have them. Only whites can truly transcend their heritage and become Americans. Non-whites will always be saddled with ethnic ties.
 

Cyan

Banned
And I see more than enough "Put the WHITE back in the WHITE HOUSE" type bumper stickers to be done with other Republicans looking the other way as long they have anti-dem support.


MLK was a Republican. So was Lincoln.

The nasty, evil Southerners opposed to civil rights? Democrats.

Racism ended when Obama was elected.
 
I wish you wouldn't attack my views by insinuating that I'm stupid for voting for a "flip-flopper" or whatever. It seems to me that Romney only adopted the positions he did earlier in the year because he was trying to win the approval of very conservative people, and when the time was right he'd pivot to the center. That's what he did in the first debate with domestic policy, and that's what he did tonight with foreign policy. I don't blame him for shifting like that because you have to make the current Republicans realize you can't win on their views; you gotta move the party more to the center.

Romney is being very smart about this. By adopting new positions during the debate, he's saving the Republican Party a lot of headaches in the future.

I wanted to hold off on making a final decision until the debates concluded. I think I've given the president a fair chance, but in the end, Mitt won out for me.


I just picture the woman in your avatar saying that.... she'd make me vote for the government's right to cut off my own dick.

So he lied to get deep conservative initial support based on a false premise and used his then-established position to try and redirect the party towards the center, once it became clear he was their only choice?

yes. they'll drink sand if you tell them that's all that's available.
 

nib95

Banned
Racism ended when Obama was elected.

I'd argue the opposite. That it grew since Obama was elected. Racism is born of fear and ignorance, and after Obama was elected, a lot of ignorant people were plenty scared. A black Muslim taking office? Racism doused with some petrol.
 

Clevinger

Member
MOVE ON

How many of you wanking liberals had a grand circle jerk when you "did something amazing, elect a man not only of race but a man that actually transcends race"

Seriously. He's black. That's great. Historic yes. A great sign of racial divides healed But come on now.

In reality Republicans are supporting equality more when they make it about issues and policies. Instead of this great liberal white guilt "can we overcome it? can we bring even the least of these into office? oh will the public accept it? are they even ready yet?" It's practically racist the way you make everything about the mans color.

He's a hell of a lot more than that.

(not every liberal does this but it's so annoying)

I think liberals often overstate the racial aspect of Obama's presidency and his opposition (they're right a decent amount of the time though), but I have no idea what you're talking about with Republicans supporting equality.

They don't (but sometimes pretend to) support equality in financial, sexual, or racial ways.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
I'm sorry. Are you saying new ideas about policies and issues?

Or just new policies and issues?
Whatever you're trying to refer to in that post. Ideas or policies. Because socially, the GOP completely lost me over the past 8 years.
 

rodvik

Member
White people only have ethnic backgrounds if they choose to have them. Only whites can truly transcend their heritage and become Americans. Non-whites will always be saddled with ethnic ties.

This seems pretty much spot on. Sadly.

Also this is the BBC writing it, which is pretty embarrassing. They should damn well know better.
 

Canuck76

Banned
I love how badly you try to ignore shit like "Put the WHITE back in the White House!" and "Don't reNig!!" undertones that permeate a lot of the conservative rhetoric now.

Liberals have, at this point, moved on. It's a certain brand of racist conservatives that haven't.

I mean look you can find both on the internet certainly.

But all the conservatives i meet are pretty squarely about the issues. Only times i hear his race brought up is when it's a deflection of a critique.

"oh you just don't like black people" honestly i'd be happy Obama wins a 2nd term if we can make all stuff about his race go away and make it more about the issues next time.
 

pigeon

Banned
MLK was a Republican. So was Lincoln.

The nasty, evil Southerners opposed to civil rights? Democrats.

Racism ended when Obama was elected.

All the conservatives went so delusional that the liberals are now pretending to be conservatives. This thread is a microcosm of America.
 

CrazyDude

Member
I'd argue the opposite. That it grew since Obama was elected. Racism is born of fear and ignorance, and after Obama was elected, a lot of ignorant people were plenty scared. A black Muslim taking office? Racism doused with some petrol.

I believe he is being sarcastic.
 

pigeon

Banned
I mean look you can find both on the internet certainly.

But all the conservatives i meet are pretty squarely about the issues. Only times i hear his race brought up is when it's a deflection of a critique..

Canuck?

I think I have identified the problem with your sample universe.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
I mean look you can find both on the internet certainly.

But all the conservatives i meet are pretty squarely about the issues. Only times i hear his race brought up is when it's a deflection of a critique.

"oh you just don't like black people" honestly i'd be happy Obama wins a 2nd term if we can make all stuff about his race go away and make it more about the issues next time.

No, its when people make up stupid shit like "He doesn't look presidential" or "He just doesn't create the presidential vibe" or "He only won because he's black (which is my favorite because the minority vote just isn't that big)"

Its good that all the conservatives you meet are right on the issues. Its great. But it irks the hell out of me when people so conveniently and casually deny the fact that race does play a part. Its not even subtle. Do you suddenly not see the "Don't ReNIG" shirts on TV? Do you not see a ridiculous birther movement? All this is right out in the open.

I do not like Obama.

There are PLENTY of reasons not to like Obama. I'd just like to hear some of the ones I agree with instead of ones centered around dumb shit.
 
Man, I just got back to class and started watching the debate video and not even 10 minutes in and Romney contradicted himself... can't kill our way out but then he says his strategy is to interrupt and kill the bad guys. What the hell...
Oh just wait, it gets better.
 
I mean look you can find both on the internet certainly.

But all the conservatives i meet are pretty squarely about the issues. Only times i hear his race brought up is when it's a deflection of a critique.

"oh you just don't like black people" honestly i'd be happy Obama wins a 2nd term if we can make all stuff about his race go away and make it more about the issues next time.

Deflection of critiques are always signs of a weak argument, no disagreement there.

There are definitely some frighteningly large groups of people who behave as if Obama were an "outsider". It really isn't a strictly liberal conversation about "critique? OMG YOU NO LIEK BLACK PPL? RACIS" There are absolutely plenty of instances where the race issue gets brought up from the Republican side.
 
Well...after reading GAF I thought sure Mr. Romney would suck.

After watching...he didn't. I thought President Obama did the better job, but not by a landslide.


Right now...I can see why this election is a toss up, and as an Obama supporter I'm not happy about it. I kinda wouldn't mind if Romney of 2 years ago was the Vice President right now.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
I'd still like to hear those issues and policies regarding equality from the GOP though.
 

strobogo

Banned
Favorite part of the debate is Romney saying we should have the UN just arrest the President of Iran.

I believe he said he would have Ahmadinejad charged with genocide, because saying he'd wipe Israel off the map is absolutely exactly the same as actually doing it, so it'd be totally legit to have him arrested and charged with genocide. Which I think inciting genocide is a pretty massive deal under the Geneva Convention. But the way he said it was weird. He didn't say UN, he said HE would do it. Which means the US. Which I don't think is how that works.
 
Ugh it always rubs me the wrong way when Americans can the Democratic party liberal. Our Canadian Conservative party is more liberal than the American Democrats.

I fear for the world if that crazy right wing mormon gets elected.
 

pigeon

Banned
I believe he said he would have Ahmadinejad charged with genocide, because saying he'd wipe Israel off the map is absolutely exactly the same as actually doing it, so it'd be totally legit to have him arrested and charged with genocide.

backpat.com said:
According to Romney senior adviser Eric Fehrnstrom, successfully indicting Ahmadinejad would be more than just a symbolic victory.

“I think it would remove probably one of the most anti-Jewish, anti-Israel, pro-genocide members of that regime in Tehran,” he told TPM after the debate. As to whether he would actually be arrested: “I’m hoping that he would be indicted and that action would unfold following that indictment. Absolutely.”

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...ey-boca-raton-third-debate.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

Law and Order: Genocidal Dictators Unit.
 
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