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[Freshmaker]

What is this apology tour that Romney keeps referring to? Is it an actual thing that Obama said and he's spinning it as an "apology tour" or is he just pulling that out of his ass?

Basically the Faux News spin on Obama trying to mend international relations after Bush II's rather strident reign over the region.

Ranks up there with Obama surrendering to the Japanese emperor by bowing too low.

 

[Open Source]

No, they really do. You have to get beyond the pointless exaggerations about speeches and apologies and perceptions of strength. As far as actions go, Romney wouldn't be doing much different. He has been desperately, and failing at it, trying to create a difference between himself and Obama by flinging crap about Libya and Iran and Syria but all in non-specifics. The fact remains that Romney can't name, even when pressed, any actions he would do differently, because there is nothing to be done differently.

True. And Obama's foreign policy is pretty much the same as Bush's, with a more conciliatory tone. Both were/are failures with regard to Russia, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, China, etc.

 

[bomma_man]

I already assume the election is over and Obama has won. Which leaves us with a president with a very "republican" foreign policy anyway. The point being there is no peaceful resolution in the Middle East is sight despite that being the goal put forward by both politicians. So is it really a stretch to call them both liars?

http://www.france24.com/en/20120912...l-palestinian-mitt-romney-muslims-middle-east
http://www.salon.com/2011/07/13/arabs/ "US more unpopular in the Arab world than under Bush"

Did Palestine (or Palestinians) get mentioned once in the debate? Hamas (as a terrorist organization) got mentioned several times and Israel somewhere around 20 times. Drones were entirely praised, which is surreal given they are flying death machines linked to a history of civilian deaths, but also shows that bipartisan agreement is more or less equal of worth to a blessing right out of the Lord's mouth.

What of the "smaller" details? The case of Bradly Manning for example. How about Obama actively fighting (after first feigning disinterest) to gain to the power to imprison anyone, anywhere, for any reason?

Now it is hard for me get passionate about these things, but GAF seems to be acting like the debate was worth winning in the first place. Are we going to bounce between moral outrage of Romney's perspective and then praise Obama as a master politician for believing in many of the same things yet having more zingers?

As a non-American I agree with this. Honestly I can't think of a single US president that I can support when it comes to foreign policy though, it's kind of a write-off.

 

[maharg]

True. And Obama's foreign policy is pretty much the same as Bush's, with a more conciliatory tone. Both were/are failures with regard to Russia, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, China, etc.

Obama's foreign policy is nothing like Bush'. Obama's is much more targeted and goal oriented, as well as more inclusive of the needs and opinions of (direct) allies'. Bush' was like shooting a wall with a machine gun and trying to pretend the bullet holes are a connect the dot map of the world.

Given enough time and a lack of nuclear weapons, Bush might have invaded Pakistan to get Bin Laden. Obama sent in a swat team.

 

[Freshmaker]

True. And Obama's foreign policy is pretty much the same as Bush's, with a more conciliatory tone. Both were/are failures with regard to Russia, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, China, etc.

Obama invaded two countries over UN protests?

 

[polyh3dron]

Obama invaded two countries over UN protests?

Apparently yes. I swear, the lengths some people will go to portray a false equivalency are ridiculous.

 

[Open Source]

Obama invaded two countries over UN protests?

I don't know how much the UN protested over Libya, drone strikes in Pakistan, and the surge in Afghanistan, but the level of military interventionism isn't terribly different.

 

[NBtoaster]

What's the chance of the GOP having some kind of meltdown after the election? Seems like there's already a lot of second guessing and lack of faith.

 

[IrishNinja]

I don't know how much the UN protested over Libya, drone strikes in Pakistan, and the surge in Afghanistan, but the level of military interventionism isn't terribly different.

by level do you mean troops/civilians lost, amount of time, money squandered, or which metric making these engagements unrelated exactly

 

[speculawyer]

I don't know how much the UN protested over Libya, drone strikes in Pakistan, and the surge in Afghanistan, but the level of military interventionism isn't terribly different.

Oh. So I guess Bill Clinton "invaded" Afghanistan in attempts to stop 9/11 but he doesn't get much credit for that "invasion".

 

[Open Source]

by level do you mean troops/civilians lost, amount of time, money squandered, or which metric making these engagements unrelated exactly

Willingness.

 

[Open Source]

Oh. So I guess Bill Clinton "invaded" Afghanistan in attempts to stop 9/11 but he doesn't get much credit for that "invasion".

If you would like to continue this conversation, please reply with the number of missile strikes by Clinton in Afghanistan and the number by Obama in Pakistan.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

Just finished watching the debate. It's unfortunate Romney is so weak on foreign policy. There are very legitimate concerns (alarmingly so) about the WH's conduct over the last 4 years, and Romney barely touched on any of it.

 

[antiquegamer]

I don't know how much the UN protested over Libya, drone strikes in Pakistan, and the surge in Afghanistan, but the level of military interventionism isn't terribly different.

I heard it all now ... suddenly Obama's fail foreign policy is essentially the same as Bush That Mr. Romney again totally shift his stance is OK, because Obama policy is after all is suddenly a good policy and something that Republican candidate can get behind so not to appear to be another warmonger extremist.

 

[speculawyer]

If you would like to continue this conversation, please reply with the number of missile strikes by Clinton in Afghanistan and the number by Obama in Pakistan.

So now "invasion" has specific threshold number of missile strikes?

 

[Cloudy]

Why does Mitt have his grown ass kids and their kids on the stage after the debate? Don't the grandkids go to school? I'm kind of impressed with Obama not dragging his kids out there

 

[Freshmaker]

Oh. So I guess Bill Clinton "invaded" Afghanistan in attempts to stop 9/11 but he doesn't get much credit for that "invasion".

You gotta admit, Kosovo was pretty much the same as Germany invading Poland.

 

[Open Source]

I heard it all now ... suddenly Obama's fail foreign policy is essentially the same as Bush That Mr. Romney again totally shift his stance is OK, because Obama policy is after all is suddenly a good policy and something that Republican candidate can get behind so not to appear to be another warmonger extremist.

http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2011/08/bush-20-100-ways-barack-obama-is-just.html

 

[Open Source]

So now "invasion" has specific threshold number of missile strikes?

The point is, and I am surprised you didn't pick up on this, is that while 1 isolated missile strike, an attack of opportunity, would not be considered an invasion, about 300 missile strikes spread over 4 years might.

That, and the fact that Pakistan always comes out with statements to that effect (mostly for domestic consumption, I assume).

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I missed this, who won?

 

[Rocket Scientist]

I missed this, who won?

Israel.

 

[Open Source]

I missed this, who won?

George W. Bush.

 

[ISOM]

Why does Mitt have his grown ass kids and their kids on the stage after the debate? Don't the grandkids go to school? I'm kind of impressed with Obama not dragging his kids out there

I was impressed too, I thought Obama was like I'm not going to drag my kids here to be paraded around to try and gain sympathy votes. It showed strong character to me.

 

[lednerg]

The main thing I think people should be worried about is having any more conservatives in the Supreme Court. Four years of a president is one thing, but justices are practically in there for life. We cannot afford to have a court that's even worse than the one that gave us Citizens United among other travesties of justice. Fuck that shit.

 

[squicken]

I missed this, who won?

I didn't watch it either, but from CNN, it seems Obama won. Only the same article says that it's unlikely to change anything in the overall polling. So I don't get it. Is the first debate the only one that matters? b/c it seems like that is the only one that did anything

 

[Seth C]

Why does Mitt have his grown ass kids and their kids on the stage after the debate? Don't the grandkids go to school? I'm kind of impressed with Obama not dragging his kids out there

Because republicans only seem to care about "core family values". You know, like not letting the gays get married.

 

[IrishNinja]

Willingness.

but how do you quantify that without a green lantern ring
i bet you don't even know the oath

Just finished watching the debate. It's unfortunate Romney is so weak on foreign policy. There are very legitimate concerns (alarmingly so) about the WH's conduct over the last 4 years, and Romney barely touched on any of it.

there are indeed, but how is romney positioned to argue any of them? he'd come off as soft towards his own party for nailing obama on things like drone attacks, hawkishness etc
now go watch stein & rocky go in on him at democracynow 3rd party responses to the debate, you might be more satisfied there

http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2011/08/bush-20-100-ways-barack-obama-is-just.html

that domain..i mean why not just grab something random from CATO institute and be done with it
oh wait, they prolly dont have solid intel on the white house's thermostat

Israel.

haha, boom

 

[lednerg]

Oh. So I guess Bill Clinton "invaded" Afghanistan in attempts to stop 9/11 but he doesn't get much credit for that "invasion".

All I know is, the Republicans back then were too busy chanting "No war for Monica" to notice, treating it as if it was a distraction from the more important matter of the secret blow job he received.

Non american here but come on!!!
How can Mitt Romney even be an option?

And how can the election be considered "tight"???

The right-wing propaganda machine here is nothing if not relentless.

 

[Maximilian E.]

Non american here but come on!!!
How can Mitt Romney even be an option?

And how can the election be considered "tight"???

 

[7he Talon]

Can someone give me a link to the full debate?

 

[GavinGT]

I wish Obama had gone on an apology tour on behalf of the country's past mistakes. But that would only give the conservatives a factual talking point to go along with their idea that the U.S. can do no wrong.

 

[Open Source]

but how do you quantify that without a green lantern ring
i bet you don't even know the oath

Maybe the fact that Obama increased troop levels in Afghanistan and called it "the right war". Or the Libya attack, unauthorized by Congress. Or the hundreds of drone strikes in Pakistan. Or the funneling of arms to Syria rebels.

that domain..i mean why not just grab something random from CATO institute and be done with it
oh wait, they prolly dont have solid intel on the white house's thermostat

So would it be better if I just regurgitated it here (like the many posts and topics regurgitated here from lefty blogs and commentators)?

Here, have some Salon: http://www.salon.com/2011/08/18/obama_bush_presidency/

 

[Freshmaker]

Non american here but come on!!!
How can Mitt Romney even be an option?

He isn't.

And how can the election be considered "tight"???

It's really not. Obama's had the electoral votes sewn up the whole time. Doesn't make for compelling narrative though.

 

[Open Source]

I wish Obama had gone on an apology tour on behalf of the country's past mistakes. But that would only give the conservatives a factual talking point to go along with their idea that the U.S. can do no wrong.

If you define apologizing as acknowledging mistakes and promising to rectify them, then yes, Obama has done his share of apologizing, and Kessler at the WP is incorrect. If you define it as saying "We're sorry" or "We apologize" or "We regret", then there was no apologizing.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Can someone give me a link to the full debate?

http://www.c-span.org/

 

[Open Source]

He isn't.



It's really not. Obama's had the electoral votes sewn up the whole time. Doesn't make for compelling narrative though.

According to current realclearpolitics numbers, if Obama loses his 1.9% lead in Ohio (or various permutations of battleground states), Romney wins. How is that "sewn up"?

Still, these are scary times for Obama and his fellow Democrats. "For the first time in this campaign, I'd rather be in Romney's shoes than ours," said a top Obama adviser, speaking on condition of anonymity to avoid retribution for belying the campaign spin.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...wins-the-night-romney-wins-the-series/263973/

 

[7he Talon]

http://www.c-span.org/

Thanks

 

[Freshmaker]

According to current realclearpolitics numbers, if Obama loses his 1.9% lead in Ohio (or various permutations of battleground states), Romney wins. How is that "sewn up"?

That won't happen. Thinking people cannot elect a snake. That'd be unconstitutional.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Thanks

You're welcome. Watched it on there myself as I wasn't home during the debate. Spoiler

Spoiler

Obama wins

.

 

[Cheebo]

That won't happen. Thinking people cannot elect a snake. That'd be unconstitutional.

Obama won the second debate yet Romney's numbers still improved. No reason it can't happen this time as well. This thing isn't sewn up by any degree.

 

[IrishNinja]

Maybe the fact that Obama increased troop levels in Afghanistan and called it "the right war".

an engagement he'd been handed, where the goal was to finish up & be out by 2014, requiring more troops (taken from the fallout of iraq)

Or the Libya attack, unauthorized by Congress.

humanitarian crisis, with push/backing from the international community - kind've a far cry from a "generational comittment" to preemptively invade iraq on false pretenses, id like to think. again, scope.

Or the hundreds of drone strikes in Pakistan.

ill grant you this (as well as the act authorizing assassination of us citizens as "enemy combatants"), not a fan of either

Or the funneling of arms to Syria rebels.

see my 2nd caveat.
look i'm not arguing your core point - that obama's quite a bit more hawkish than i/others expected (though he did in afghanistan exactly what his early claims were), just that lumping him in with bush/cheney is equivocation and irrespective of both scope and context.

and while i do appreciate Salon's article more, it's making some leaps as well. there's certainly analogies to be made by way of obama's lack of gov't transparency, certain expansion of powers things like patriot act (or worse yet, his stance on the drug war...), but again this argument is made by ignoring a dramatic shift in diplomacy, leaps and bounds like DADT and obamacare etc that said former administration couldve been around another decade and showed no sign of accomplishing any of it. it only works as an analogy when you cherry pick very specific angles, not as a whole.

 

[Freshmaker]

Obama won the second debate yet Romney's numbers still improved. No reason it can't happen this time as well. This thing isn't sewn up by any degree.

Sorry. Sewn up.

 

[miksar]

I was impressed too, I thought Obama was like I'm not going to drag my kids here to be paraded around to try and gain sympathy votes. It showed strong character to me.

You're trying too hard to convince yourself, try other, more legitimate reasons.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Were there any highlights? Any key moments?

 

[Sickboy007]

You're trying too hard to convince yourself, try other, more legitimate reasons.

Such as?

 

[IrishNinja]

Were there any highlights? Any key moments?

you wanna start about 33 minutes in

 

[ISOM]

You're trying too hard to convince yourself, try other, more legitimate reasons.

Trying to hard? I'm just basing it on what I see.

 

[Cheebo]

Sorry. Sewn up.

a 1.9% lead in Ohio is far from sewn. Obama and Romney are in a Bush/Kerry sort of situation going into the final two weeks here.

 

[GavinGT]

Sorry. Sewn up.

 

[Gibbo]

Sorry. Sewn up.

mind elaborating? honest question... non American here