Valve: Xbox Live policy is 'such a train wreck'

Guy Legend

Guy Legend

Member
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=263859

Valve: Xbox Live 'such a train wreck'
Thursday 9-Sep-2010 4:00 PM We failed in assuming MS would change online service, says Newell


Valve boss Gabe Newell has called his company's assumptions over Xbox Live "such a train wreck".

Speaking to our colleagues at PC Gamer in its recently-published interview, Newell said one of Valve's failures over the years was to assume that Microsoft would improve Xbox Live so it could update its games regularly for free.


When asked if its mistake on Xbox Live was to assume Microsoft would let Valve update its games more often, Newell said:

"We thought that there would be something that would emerge, because we figured it was a sort of untenable... Oh yeah, we understand that these are the rules now, but it's such a train wreck that something will have to change.

"That's why we're really happy with the current situation with the PS3," he said. "We're solving it now in a way that is going to work for our customers, rather than assuming something is going to emerge later that will allow us to fix this."

Microsoft has a notoriously closed approach to its online service compared to PSN, with developers allowed as little as one free title update (though there are exceptions) and limitations on the amount of free game content they can release.

In fact, in its recent paid-for Red Dead Redemption add-on Rockstar included all the free-of-charge content from its previous Free Roam pack, "due to the platform network's restrictions on numbers of free packs we can give away."

Valve told CVG last month that it'd love to put its Steamworks dev suite on Xbox Live, but Microsoft seemingly isn't budging.

Valve's Erik Johnson echoed Newell's comments: "The lack of updates on the 360, for TF2, is also a total failure," he said. "Those are the ones that sting the worst because... it got all the way through to customers. It's like a bug. If you fix a bug before it ever ships, it's pretty cheap. If you ship it and then fix it, it's really expensive. Those ones are really bad."

In particular It's a huge turnaround for Newell, a man who once called PS3 "a waste of everybody's time" - something for which he later apologised for to owners of the console.
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In fact, in its recent paid-for Red Dead Redemption add-on Rockstar included all the free-of-charge content from its previous Free Roam pack, "due to the platform network's restrictions on numbers of free packs we can give away."

Valve told CVG last month that it'd love to put its Steamworks dev suite on Xbox Live, but Microsoft seemingly isn't budging.

Valve's Erik Johnson echoed Newell's comments: "The lack of updates on the 360, for TF2, is also a total failure," he said. "Those are the ones that sting the worst because... it got all the way through to customers. It's like a bug. If you fix a bug before it ever ships, it's pretty cheap. If you ship it and then fix it, it's really expensive. Those ones are really bad."
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Really? I had no idea they charged companies just for updates that fixed bugs.
 
I might not buy the next Microsoft console because of Live. Xbox Live Gold Exclusive discounts on dlc/games was the last straw.
 
It's obviously because of their experience with updates for TF2 and L4D and not because of master race superiority.
 
Stupid MS and their restrictions. Teach them a lesson, Valve. Make all the updates free on ps3 and paid on 360(not like you have a choice anyway), that will get people riled up.
 
Guy Legend said:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=263859
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Well . . . bandwidth does cost money. I often wonder when Valve will change their own strategy at least a little bit. It is weird how when I log in, Steam starts updating 5 different games. Why? What if I never play game X, why bother?

But I agree that xbox live is too stingy with updates. I guess that is because they want the disc versions of the games too be good. No shipping shitty games and then fixing them later with updates since that doesn't work for the people w/o internet connections. That is something Valve does not have to contend with.

Damn, I'm going back & forth here. :lol
 
Wonder how much Sony paid Gabe for this abrupt 'change of heart'.
joke - better make it obvious before I get flamed and die.
 
Genesis Knight said:
Wonder how much Sony paid Gabe for this abrupt 'change of heart'.
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oh man, joke post I hope.

It'll only be a matter of time before valve starts some kind of premium service and starts charging.
 
speculawyer said:
Well . . . bandwidth does cost money. I often wonder when Valve will change their own strategy at least a little bit. It is weird how when I log in, Steam starts updating 5 different games. Why? What if I never play game X, why bother?

But I agree that xbox live is too stingy with updates. I guess that is because they want the disc versions of the games too be good. No shipping shitty games and then fixing them later with updates since that doesn't work for the people w/o internet connections. That is something Valve does not have to contend with.

Damn, I'm going back & forth here. :lol
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If you played LittleBigPlanet, you would appreciate Valve's way of updating.
 
"We thought that there would be something that would emerge, because we figured it was a sort of untenable...
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Yea well we all did bro. That's why we haven't seen Steam on their, FFX IV, or any chance of a Blizzard game touching the console as if there was much chance. Fact is it seems to me MS top brass in the division seem to care little. More importantly I've not seen one hard hitting interviewing over these issues with said top brass. Bloody shame.

If it ever changes it's going to take the likes of more than all of this combined.

MS has made some strides in trying to improve some of their more prehistoric policies. Stringent XBLA game size limits for one, but who knows if they will ever budge on these third party issues. Heck, at least Konami has come up with a legit way to install multi disc games with now not having to change the disc after install. Get ahead of the curve MS.
 
It's like Valve has done a 180 in the console warz. Didn't Chet Faliszek say something a while ago about Left 4 Dead not being on PS3 because PSN was limited?

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to seeing what Valve does with Steamworks in the PS3 version of Portal 2. Cross platform play and presence data would be amazing.
 
speculawyer said:
Well . . . bandwidth does cost money. I often wonder when Valve will change their own strategy at least a little bit. It is weird how when I log in, Steam starts updating 5 different games. Why? What if I never play game X, why bother?

But I agree that xbox live is too stingy with updates. I guess that is because they want the disc versions of the games too be good. No shipping shitty games and then fixing them later with updates since that doesn't work for the people w/o internet connections. That is something Valve does not have to contend with.

Damn, I'm going back & forth here. :lol
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You can turn off automatic updates for individual games. I don't think you can for the entire Steam service, though.
 
burgerdog said:
Stupid MS and their restrictions. Teach them a lesson, Valve. Make all the updates free on ps3 and paid on 360(not like you have a choice anyway), that will get people riled up.
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That's what will happen when their next multiplat game, Portal 2, releases. It won't be out of spite, it's just because they have a choice on PS3.
Either way, Valve is awesome. I'm glad they're working on PS3 now..
 
speculawyer said:
Well . . . bandwidth does cost money. I often wonder when Valve will change their own strategy at least a little bit. It is weird how when I log in, Steam starts updating 5 different games. Why? What if I never play game X, why bother?
Click to expand...

Turn off updates for that game. Problem solved. Developers and publishers don't pay Valve to release patches for their games, so it's not the same comparison at all.
 
Article subject doesn't jive with the first line of the article.

Valve boss Gabe Newell has called his company's assumptions over Xbox Live "such a train wreck".
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In which case he's completely correct.

Xbox Live itself is far from being a train wreck (quite the opposite), but Microsoft's point-blank refusal to let go of the leash a little for companies like Valve - who have quite clearly shown that their model works, and works well. It was kind of silly of them to think that things would change over at Redmond, since Valve banked their success on 360 on being able to do the same things on the platform as they can on their own Steam platform.

The difference between Team Fortress 2 on PC and 360 is like night and day now because of this. It's a shame.
 
I hate these stupid ass publicity stunt announcements. Just shut up and make games. I don't give a fuck about your opinion of them or anything related
 
Zenith said:
Really? I had no idea they charged companies just for updates that fixed bugs.
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It was MS's plan to fight unfinished games on release. Sadly it didn't really work as companies still release their games unfinished. :lol Might as well let go of that rule now. I doubt they will though, at least not this gen.
 
Zenith said:
Really? I had no idea they charged companies just for updates that fixed bugs.
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My understanding is the 1st title update is free and then yeah they charge. I can see how that would make publishers/devs not want to kill themselves fixing or adding to their games.
 
speculawyer said:
It is weird how when I log in, Steam starts updating 5 different games. Why? What if I never play game X, why bother?
Click to expand...

Because normal people don't have dozens of unplayed games in their Steam list. :lol
I am part of the problem. :(
 
pivot said:
I hate these stupid ass publicity stunt announcements. Just shut up and make games. I don't give a fuck about your opinion of them or anything related
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Why are you on a video game forum in a thread about such opinions then? O_o
 
stuminus3 said:
Article subject doesn't jive with the first line of the article.



In which case he's completely correct.

Xbox Live itself is far from being a train wreck (quite the opposite), but Microsoft's point-blank refusal to let go of the leash a little for companies like Valve - who have quite clearly shown that their model works, and works well. It was kind of silly of them to think that things would change over at Redmond, since Valve banked their success on 360 on being able to do the same things on the platform as they can on their own Steam platform.

The difference between Team Fortress 2 on PC and 360 is like night and day now because of this. It's a shame.
Click to expand...
MS doesn't want customers expecting free content releases on 360 games, it sets a bad precedent for them.
 
KAOS said:
Why did he hate the ps3???
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Because early coding on it was like sliding into a room full of razer blades. And what Gabe is saying is basically a classic PR Trolling stunt to make a policy public, and see if they can nudge MS to changing something that Valve disagrees with. There are probably negotiations going on and someone is trying to get the upper hand, publicly.
 
If there is only 1 free update per game, how come I have had to download 2 500+ MB patches for Bad Company 2?

Anyways, Live has some bullshit restrictions and it is really making me dislike the service even more. See the Red Dead pack and upcoming price hike as 2 major, recent reasons why.

Seriously, the only reason I'm not full time gaming on Steam, is because of a few stubborn friends who refuse to get a gaming PC and stop gaming on 360. Free and better service with steam, better game performance and cheaper games as well.
 
pivot said:
I hate these stupid ass publicity stunt announcements. Just shut up and make games. I don't give a fuck about your opinion of them or anything related
Click to expand...

Was there an ad in the newspaper I missed or something? What the hell are you talking about? And clearly you gave a fuck if you felt compelled to post in this thread.
 
Jtyettis said:
Yea well we all did bro. That's why we haven't seen Steam on their, FFX IV, or any chance of a Blizzard game touching the console as if there was much chance. Fact is it seems to me MS top brass in the division seem to care little. More importantly I've not seen one hard hitting interviewing over these issues with said top brass. Bloody shame.

If it ever changes it's going to take the likes of more than all of this combined.

MS has made some strides in trying to improve some of their more prehistoric policies. Stringent XBLA game size limits for one, but who knows if they will ever budge on these third party issues. Heck, at least Konami has come up with a legit way to install multi disc games with now not having to change the disc after install. Get ahead the curve MS.
Click to expand...

Every intereview starts and ends with the journalist asking for a free Xbox Live Gold code.
 
Darkshier said:
If there is only 1 free update per game, how come I have had to download 2 500+ MB patches for Bad Company 2?
Click to expand...
Darkshier said:
Anyways, Live has some bullshit restrictions and it is really making me dislike the service even more. See the Red Dead pack and upcoming price hike as 2 major, recent reasons why.

Seriously, the only reason I'm not full time gaming on Steam, is because of a few stubborn friends who refuse to get a gaming PC and stop gaming on 360. Free and better service with steam, better game performance and cheaper games as well.
Click to expand...
Because EA pay for them >.>
 
burgerdog said:
Stupid MS and their restrictions. Teach them a lesson, Valve. Make all the updates free on ps3 and paid on 360(not like you have a choice anyway), that will get people riled up.
Click to expand...

Doesn't MS already have a policy of letting DLC be free if it's free on another system? By which they probably just mean PS3 as I don't thing PCs exist according to Microsoft's game division.
 
sillymonkey321 said:
I might not buy the next Microsoft console because of Live. Xbox Live Gold Exclusive discounts on dlc/games was the last straw.
Click to expand...

Basically. Rarely use the console anymore. Tired of being treated as second class because I don't pony up.
 
Zenith said:
Really? I had no idea they charged companies just for updates that fixed bugs.
Click to expand...

I don't think they charge but they do make updates go through certification/testing(which I assume costs the devs money) to make sure everything is still compatible with the OS/in game menu/blade stuff.
 
I think I'll just stick with the PC when it comes to Valve games... It's a shame that Newell feels this way about the Xbox Live Policy, but it's also a shame that it's pretty true.
 
I'm glad he's bitching. This really is a huge problem with Xbox. It should be in MS's best interests to let publishers/developers keep rolling out free content and updates. That would certainly keep more people from selling back their games I would think, plus it creates good will when paid DLC comes out too.
 
CryptiK said:
Because EA pay for them >.>
Click to expand...

That's such a joke. Pay MS to continue to support your game, how awful. Also, charge the customer for otherwise free content packs, because MS needs a cut of that DLC premium. Fuck supporting your customer base and dare I say give something back to the people who purchased your game.....
 
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