Valve: Xbox Live policy is 'such a train wreck'
- Thread starter Guy Legend
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George Claw M.D.
Member
StuBurns said:
This was highlighted, right in the OP:
Valve didn't complain, before, because they assumed policies would change. It's not that they didn't care, before. However, their new arrangement with Sony gives Valve a platform, from which to blast Microsoft's policies, now.
Everyone saying this in response to speculawyer is kinda missing the point. Bandwidth costs money, and there are a tonne of people out there with heaps of games installed that just update willy nilly. It's no big deal to the consumer, but to Valve or to those hosting the content it must be costing a lot. It's not up to the consumer to delete content from their hard drive to save Valve money.luka said:
Two tidbits of advice to abide by for your future posts on GAF:dralla said:
1) Don't make posts entirely irrelevant to the whole point of the thread, just to get some fanboy cred in
2) While making posts entirely irrelevant to the whole point of the thread, don't make up pure bullshit along the way that doesn't really represent reality.
But other than that, keep up the great work!
Why is it difficult to understand and accept that both opinions and facts of development change over time?StuBurns said:
Gabe's comments about the PS3, how esoteric and horrible it is for game development, are just as true today as they were when he made his comments 4-5 years ago. The hardware simply wasn't designed with games in mind.
As time goes on, Sony's tools and documentation improve. People improve. Developers learn how to exploit the esoteric hardware. Valve hires developers that eventually gained the experience they needed to develop for the PS3.
What has changed is the people. Now that Valve has people with the years of experience needed to get through initial PS3 development hurdles, now they can actually worry about the ability to bring their customer support philosophy to consoles.
DangerousDave
Member
Only to do some maths.
A 16 cents for Gb implies:
- A cost of less than 1 cent for each game sold (assuming that all of them are connected and download the patch), for a regular 25-50mb patch of changing the executable, without adding more graphical resources.
- A cost of around 4 cents for each game for a regular 250mb of a couple of multiplayer map or simple expansion.
A 16 cents for Gb implies:
- A cost of less than 1 cent for each game sold (assuming that all of them are connected and download the patch), for a regular 25-50mb patch of changing the executable, without adding more graphical resources.
- A cost of around 4 cents for each game for a regular 250mb of a couple of multiplayer map or simple expansion.
Agent X
Member
Beer Monkey said:
That's what I thought, but then there's situations like this one with the first Brutal Legend content pack, which was free for the first two weeks on PS3.
I feel like I say this a lot but damn it Gabe I love you. I'm really not that excited about Valve games on my PS3 as I still prefer them on the PC, but it's nice to see people with a real voice calling out the serious faults of XBL. In the same way the XBL accelerated the growth of PSN, lets hope the more open nature of PSN has the same effect on XBL.
what? how is it not relevant? Valve/Gabe are not happy with the closed structure of XBL, and I said it ultimately doesn't matter to the console consumers. Portal 2 on PS3 will have steamworks, 360 version won't, do you honestly think that will be enough to sway people to buy the PS3 version? That's the point I was making. Console gamers have different expectations and standards than PC gamers.dLMN8R said:
dralla said:
All Gabe/Valve have to do is make Portal Maps and release them for free through Steamworks. Include a PC version for PS3 retail (and have them be cross-platform compatible until the PS3 is dead and PS4 is out).
Oh, and include TF2 native port + updates.
Badda-bing, Badda-BOOM, anyone that goes with the 360 version will be called a moron because the PS3 version gives more value and has TF2 + updates that MS can't/won't get.
360 TF2 owners will get pissed and complain to MS about it. MS either crumbles or holds fast and loses customers/gamers that were hanging on.
It really really depends on the direction Valve is going to go with the PS3 Steamworks in getting people to buy the PS3 version.
The "open nature" of PSN, thus far, has yielded nothing. When Valve releases something on PS3 that is head and shoulders above the 360 version, I'll start paying attention. They could have sold TF2 with updates as a standalone XBLA/PSN title for $20 which would have been great. Gabe likes to talk to the audience that is convenient for him at the time.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
dLMN8R said:
Totally relevant. If gamers don't give a fuck then alot of this just goes on as it always has been. It's the same exact shit with the app store for Apple. Sure they have a ton of hoops to go through for devs, but the app store keeps pushing a shit ton of product so ultimately Apple could give a fuck and devs have to go where the user base is.
If gamers ultimately don't give a fuck about this kind of thing with Live then shit will go on like it always has no matter if it's right or wrong. Granted this is only a temp thing for now until the console cycle resets, but right now devs have to go where the money is because that's what publishers need to fund all of these projects.
Fun Factor
Formerly FTWer
Zenith said:
Microsoft must have made a killing off Bethesda & Visual Concepts!
Um...the point is that it doesn't matter which version sells better, Gabe is still pissed at Xbox Live policies and wants to provide his customers with free content.dralla said:
So why the does it matter that, in your words, the 360 version will outsell the PS3 version "5:1"? That's taking the side of Microsoft instead of taking the side of customers, implying that Valve simply shouldn't care because gamers might not know/care about it.
That type of indifference, simply attacking a company because it doesn't want to go along with the status quo, is nothing but annoying, unhelpful cynicism. Pretending like Valve should just go along with the normal Xbox Live policies because everyone else does, while ignoring their own desire to serve their customers better.
And furthermore, looking at most multiplatform games released recently, the difference in sales between platforms is hardly fucking "5:1".
So yeah...that's where my two tidbits of advice come from :lol
charlequin
Banned
HK-47 said:
Isn't... that... basically what I said? :lol
DancingJesus
Banned
Wait, people actually play Valve games on console? :lol
Good one...
Good one...
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
I bought the Orange Box for 20$ just for kicks and giggles. I didn't even finish HL2, just went right back to playing the series exclusively on PC.DancingJesus said:
The Crimson Kid
what are you waiting for
Spire said:
Sony fans are very pro-patch except when you pop in a game for a couple of minutes to play with a friend and you get hit with a mandatory 500+ MB update.
One area that Live really gets ignored on sometimes is with this patch policy, it keeps the updates from being a big interruption in gaming. They managed to take off almost all of the frustration that used to come with updating games.
Also, it shouldn't be that surprising that the 360 is the most popular online console. It came out a year early with advanced online features for the time and was much more affordable than the PS3 seemed to be. Until the PS3 hit $299, the 360 was pretty much the only place to go for HD and online gaming proper in most people's price ranges. I personally know a lot of people that buy 360s or buy 360 versions of games just because all their friends play on 360 as well.
charlequin
Banned
HK-47 said:
It must be because of how mysterious I am.
(._.) said:
We don't have all the information we'd need to say for certain, but this is at least one possibility.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
The Crimson Kid said:
Some patches are bigger than that. I had to let my Hot Shots Golf 5 patch install over night it took so long. When I first installed it, I thought my system crashed cause after an hour it still wasn't done then I just learned that it was huge so I let it run over night. On 360 there has never been a title update that lasted longer than 30 seconds.
Title updates on Xbox 360's are, at maximu, 4 megabytes thanks to the original requirements for an Arcade machine. I've got a fair idea that this might change though.
It's good for some games, but for a game like Burnout Paradise for example, which kept adding more and more things into the game, this was a huge hassle. You have to go and download the latest patch for Burnout Paradise via XBLM, while on PSN it's just a big patch instead.
It's good for some games, but for a game like Burnout Paradise for example, which kept adding more and more things into the game, this was a huge hassle. You have to go and download the latest patch for Burnout Paradise via XBLM, while on PSN it's just a big patch instead.
Dreams-Visions
Member
sorry, dude. generally speaking, he was right on the money.dLMN8R said:
whether Gabe is upset or not and whether the 360 has all the extra features and access or not, 360 gamers will buy the game more than PS3 gamers. it's bound to happen. 5:1 is unlikely, but the 360 version will most likely have a decided sales advantage, whether there are awesome custom maps and extras or not. past FPS sales data lends credibility to the educated guess/conjecture. as such, Valve will support the 360 version just as well as the PS3 version. it's about who's buttering your bread...and quite frankly, chances are great that the 360 gamers will be spreading more butter around. Generally, they always do.
so in the end, all this is much ado about nothing. MS won't change the policy because it's working well for them. They have a walled garden that they're comfortable with, much like Apple does with their App Store. the day it stops working as a net positive for consumers and developers is the day the system changes. Not because Valve wants special privileges because they're a great developer who can be trusted.
count on all of that. and in your future posts, you can try to be less condescending towards your fellow posters. your point wasn't so blessed that it was deserving of your ridicule and brow-beating. you were neither correct nor intellectually honest in your critique. perhaps you should try less to get cool points from some posters by insulting others..and in doing so, become respected by all.
just some thoughts.
Net_Wrecker
Member
Good for Valve and Sony to push the PC method of patching, and updating on a console. Hopefully it becomes commonplace next gen.
And some of you people with your "lol, look at me, I'm a PC gamer, who would ever play _____ on the console, I'm so tubular" attitude are just a joke. Seriously, come on.
And some of you people with your "lol, look at me, I'm a PC gamer, who would ever play _____ on the console, I'm so tubular" attitude are just a joke. Seriously, come on.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Well, for Valve games, there are significant differences between playing on a PC and playing on a console. Large, game-changing differences. The break down of at least one of those walls is what this thread is about.Net_Wrecker said:
Dreams-Visions
Member
indeed. while some of the experience can be recreated, directly comparing to the PC Valve experience is a mistake.ShockingAlberto said:
Net_Wrecker
Member
ShockingAlberto said:
Doesn't give a pass for people to start responding with what is basically "Hurr hurr, PC superiority, why even bother with the console version?"
...OK, maybe that's applicable to TF2, but it's still annoying.
The Crimson Kid said:
500mb to fix bugs is a little ridiculous. As a PC (and MMO) gamer, when I think "patch", I think "new free content" before I think "bug fixes". I'm sure patches have a different reputation for console gamers since they charge you for most new content. As for getting hit with huge patches when you try to play, I think Steam is the way to do it. Patches download automatically in the background when they become available, so all of your games are ready to play at any given time. You can turn that off, but unless you have storage space issues, I'm not sure why you would. I know that's harder to do on consoles since they aren't on all the time like PC's and since the games are on discs it doesn't know what games you still own, but as more and more console games are stored on HDD's in the future, I think the patching problem will go away.
Its good that Gabe has come out and said what alot of us have been thinking for a long time.
The fundamental differences between the DLC strategies of Microsoft and Valve made for a bizzare relationship.
Microsoft exploits and screws over both consumers and publishers by refusing to allow free game patches, dlc and charging for p2p gaming.
The success of Valve games like TF2 is built on this type of esssential support be given for free like it should be.
The fundamental differences between the DLC strategies of Microsoft and Valve made for a bizzare relationship.
Microsoft exploits and screws over both consumers and publishers by refusing to allow free game patches, dlc and charging for p2p gaming.
The success of Valve games like TF2 is built on this type of esssential support be given for free like it should be.
Fredescu said:
You're right. It's not up to us. If it becomes an issue for Valve then I'm sure they'll do something about it.
But if you're really concerned with their economic well-being (more than they are probably) then you can always tell steam not to update anything. More power to you.
SenorDingDong
Member
So what exactly is the live policy for downloadable content? The reason I ask is not too long ago I hired the World Cup 2010 game out on the 360 as it was the only copy available. When I went to download the free updates which included some free miscellaneous graphic updates but most importantly updated rosters and stats I was denied the ability to do so because I was on a silver account. I ended up purchasing the PS3 version after the significant price drop following the conclusion of the World Cup and had no problems downloading the updated rosters for free.
So long story short are you actually required to have a gold account to download any form of downloadable content, free or otherwise? Or is this perhaps an error on EA's part?
So long story short are you actually required to have a gold account to download any form of downloadable content, free or otherwise? Or is this perhaps an error on EA's part?
IlludiumQ36
Member
It really is a strange dichotomy with MS and their business philosophies. From the hardware side, they've been from day 1, "developer, developers, developers", yet from the services standpoint, a complete 180 - control, control, control.
Truth can be funny like that.Net_Wrecker said:
The Faceless Master
Member
well, that's because we've seen that some games still come out unfinished, untested and broken, and then they just wait forever and ever to finally release that one free update that fixes stuff, and it usually doesn't even fix everything.2 Minutes Turkish said:
Unreal Tournament IIITheSeks said:
Wazzim said:
There is no question about that. I mean look at the whole E3 announcement. They had it set in stone until the last minute and then they are like oops new plans heh. With said he wants his cake and eat it too. Still Im firmly in the camp that certain 3rd parties should be allowed some level of access, and better access overall on the platform.
dralla said:
Unless there is some real content DLC from the go, no.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Unfortunately they killed a franchise with that one more or less so they mod support on one platform didn't really have much of an effect on the sales of the other.The Faceless Master said:
Team Fortress 2/Portal are still popular and would carry some weight.
Beer Monkey
Member
(._.) said:
It's hard to say. MS doesn't seem to like DLC to cost on their service if it's free on PS3. There is that Brutal Legend exception, but that was a little different because it was only free for the first couple of weeks on PS3, and we're talking about stuff that will presumably be free forever on PS3.
I personally think it's more likely that we won't see the content AT ALL on the 360, which really shows Microsoft's stupidity in not opening up their platform a bit more and being more flexible.
