Valve: Xbox Live policy is 'such a train wreck'

I'd love to see MS open up XBL a little.

If MS allowed Blizzard to have battle.net connectivity I'd bet you'd see WoW, SC2 and D3 on the system.
 
Interfectum said:
I'd love to see MS open up XBL a little.

If MS allowed Blizzard to have battle.net connectivity I'd bet you'd see WoW, SC2 and D3 on the system.
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Why would you want to see that?
 
OldJadedGamer said:
And when the steamworks app needs patched? I'm not sure I feel good with Valve being unchecked and patching willy nilly without Sony double checking their shit.
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:lol srsly?
 
Stumpokapow said:
Oblivion really wasn't consolized. The design decisions in Oblivion were pretty clearly made for reasons other than placating the console fanbase. Morrowind on OG Xbox was big, as was Oblivion. Fallout 3 and NV don't appear to suffer from Oblivion's broken-ass designs. I don't think the level scaling was a concession to consoles.

BioShock and DE:IW you most definitely have a point with, and the general trend is there, but I just don't see it in Oblivion. The design streamlining was pretty clearly intention, and the asset streamlining was pretty clearly due to cost of production.
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To be honest, I was just trying to make fun of Draft's Master PC Race comment (having myself been a PC gamer a long time ago who "consolized" himself), and while I do agree with you that Oblivion was streamlined in order to (maybe?) reach a wider audience; there are certain design decisions which were (in my mind) clearly made with the intention of targeting consoles: the interface for starters (spells and weapons slots, lockpicking, menu, map, etc).
So yes, I agree, while Oblivion probably had most of its design decisions affected by budget and new hardware gen(and new engine, I think), some others were (again, in my opinion) influenced in part by one of their intended targets: consoles.

(: But this is super off-topic and as I mentioned before I was just trying to bug Draft, sorry!
 
XBL is Microsoft's most attractive and profitable feature on the console. Almost every consumer facing function is well executed and worthwhile. But, their process for releasing content and patches is a little janky. It is especially oppressive for developers to work with. It's one thing when a bunch of small developers complain, it's easy and makes some monetary sense to brush it aside. But when one of the most popular developers on the PC is trying to bring their considerable business to your console and they can't do it effectively, it's time to change.
 
The real "train wreck" level "failure" was that console players wound up shut out of TF2 updates. It's a game I would still be playing today on Xbox if we got all the promised content. (Sorry I have no interest in PC play)

Whether it was because of Valve standing by their principles on free content/updates or Microsoft standing by their policies, the consumers still got screwed. I hope BOTH parties think it was worth it but it sure doesn't get TF2 back on my box and that makes me sad.
 
Lime said:
How the hell can anyone be against patches? Does. not. fempute.
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It's not that anyone is against patches, it's the dependence that developers have put on them that everyone is against... I hope.
 
I get pleasure out of reading patch notes for PC games when I update them. There is something comforting in reading about what was fixed/improved/added.

Is there any way to view a readme on 360 or PS3? I usually walk away while stuff updates on them.
 
OCDBuzz said:
The real "train wreck" level "failure" was that console players wound up shut out of TF2 updates. It's a game I would still be playing today on Xbox if we got all the promised content. (Sorry I have no interest in PC play)

Whether it was because of Valve standing by their principles on free content/updates or Microsoft standing by their policies, the consumers still got screwed. I hope BOTH parties think it was worth it but it sure doesn't get TF2 back on my box and that makes me sad.
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The problem is, the business model around TF2 is to keep it constantly updated to people constantly play it.

You can't do that on XBL. You have a limited number of patches and free DLC updates.

IIRC, Valve planned on doing a huge content update for the 360 version of TF2 after they were done with the PC updates but I'm guessing most if not all the 360 users have quit playing that version and it would be a waste of their time to update it.

You know what would bring users back? A steamworks enabled TF2 on XBLA. But it seems some of the XBL defenders here think this would be a bad idea.
 
Interfectum said:
I'd love to see MS open up XBL a little.

If MS allowed Blizzard to have battle.net connectivity I'd bet you'd see WoW, SC2 and D3 on the system.
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SC2 and D3 could be jury rigged into a console, though they likely wouldn't play as well, no better than others already on the console play.

WoW on a console is an impossibility for input reasons alone. MS would have to allow them to require a keyboard and mouse. You cannot take WoW's control scheme and shrink it down to a 16 button controller and not have it be laughably bad.

I agree with Steve though in that it still wouldn't likely happen.
 
OCDBuzz said:
The real "train wreck" level "failure" was that console players wound up shut out of TF2 updates. It's a game I would still be playing today on Xbox if we got all the promised content. (Sorry I have no interest in PC play)

Whether it was because of Valve standing by their principles on free content/updates or Microsoft standing by their policies, the consumers still got screwed. I hope BOTH parties think it was worth it but it sure doesn't get TF2 back on my box and that makes me sad.
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Part of it is that modern TF2 simply can't run on consoles. From what I understand they just don't have enough memory. You an see it somewhat on the PC. Computers that used to be able to play the game at passable rates at launch have serious trouble now.

Edit: I just looked at the 'recommended' specs; they'd have trouble keeping a holding 30 with everything on low.
 
I'm pretty sure 360 and PS3 don't have enough RAM to hold all the hat data from TF2 during a given round. It would have to come without hats. And hats are the game, so what's the point?
 
In particular It's a huge turnaround for Newell, a man who once called PS3 "a waste of everybody's time" - something for which he later apologised for to owners of the console.
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bloodsport1gn3r.gif
 
I'd love to see MS rethink some of their XBL policies but lets be honest Valve games should be pc only. I attempted to play Orange box on 360 but it just felt awful.
 
Stallion Free said:
I get pleasure out of reading patch notes for PC games when I update them. There is something comforting in reading about what was fixed/improved/added.

Is there any way to view a readme on 360 or PS3? I usually walk away while stuff updates on them.
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game updates on the my 360 take like 5 seconds
 
Stallion Free said:
I'm pretty sure 360 and PS3 don't have enough RAM to hold all the hat data from TF2 during a given round. It would have to come without hats. And hats are the game, so what's the point?
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While that's obviously a joke, it does make me wonder how some of the unlocks would work on TF2. Think about it, aiming the Ambassador or Huntsman could possibly be damn near impossible on an analog stick, just because of how ridiculously accurate you have to be with those weapons, the Huntsman to a slightly lesser extent. What about the Direct Hit? You're going to have to pull some crazy movements on a dime to successfully use that thing. What about doing the Force-A-Nature's third jump? You might want to turn your sensitivity all the way up for that one, or just spend the whole jump looking at the ground below you and not where you're going. Anyone else get this feeling?
 
devildog820 said:
XBL is Microsoft's most attractive and profitable feature on the console. Almost every consumer facing function is well executed and worthwhile. But, their process for releasing content and patches is a little janky. It is especially oppressive for developers to work with. It's one thing when a bunch of small developers complain, it's easy and makes some monetary sense to brush it aside. But when one of the most popular developers on the PC is trying to bring their considerable business to your console and they can't do it effectively, it's time to change.
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Couple of things:
1. XBL probably is the most profitable feature, but "most attractive" is certainly a personal preference: for me the most attractive is the feature-list for the OS itself: i.e. hard drive installs, custom soundtracks, seamless/background downloads-installs (not a feature of the XBL system but of the OS, I believe). I'm probably just arguing semantics but it takes me to the second item:
2. XBL would be the second most attractive feature of the OS/Platform for me if it was free to play. I know it's a moot point since Microsoft is not going to leave that money on the table after determining that people are willing to pay; although it's a whole different ballgame when users feel they're forced to keep paying to continue enjoying their investment -multiplayer games on their system of choice-, than having the option from scratch to switch to a different, free-to-play platform come next gen (unless Microsoft can guarantee free BC for their next system).
3. Finally in regards to:
But when one of the most popular developers on the PC is trying to bring their considerable business to your console and they can't do it effectively, it's time to change.
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Maybe that's the thing: maybe Microsoft doesn't care about Valve on their system anymore. Not enough to rethink their policies, anyway. They are about to do this huge casual push. Valve has enough of a big following on PC. Those users are (more than likely) going to stay on PC. Maybe Microsoft feels like L4D, TF2, Half-Life 2 and episodes are "just more" of the kind of material they already have on their system (vs. Halo, Gears, Call of Duty, etc). Honestly: I don't see how they couldn't see the pull of those games, but then, what could explain their behavior?

This doesn't mean they won't re-evaluate their policies come next gen, I'm sure they will, but right now I'd say they're more interested in backing Kinect than in getting more multiplayer-centric first person shooters.
 
speculawyer said:
Well . . . bandwidth does cost money. I often wonder when Valve will change their own strategy at least a little bit. It is weird how when I log in, Steam starts updating 5 different games. Why? What if I never play game X, why bother?

But I agree that xbox live is too stingy with updates. I guess that is because they want the disc versions of the games too be good. No shipping shitty games and then fixing them later with updates since that doesn't work for the people w/o internet connections. That is something Valve does not have to contend with.

Damn, I'm going back & forth here. :lol
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Why bother to have the game installed if you never play it? If you're worried about redownloading it, then just backup your game files to disc.
 
the worst thing about the 360 patches is the patch system that only patches the executable so you have to download content packs from marketplace in addition to getting the patch.

no, wait, the worst thing is the cache system that deletes game patches if you have more than like 5, despite the size of your hdd, rendering some game saves unworkable.
 
Interfectum said:
The problem is, the business model around TF2 is to keep it constantly updated to people constantly play it.

You can't do that on XBL. You have a limited number of patches and free DLC updates.

IIRC, Valve planned on doing a huge content update for the 360 version of TF2 after they were done with the PC updates but I'm guessing most if not all the 360 users have quit playing that version and it would be a waste of their time to update it.

You know what would bring users back? A steamworks enabled TF2 on XBLA. But it seems some of the XBL defenders here think this would be a bad idea.
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I thought the business model of Valve was to keep their customers happy (on PC, that means great support) so you buy the next game and use their distribution service.

I, for one, would have been happy to pay for TF2 updates. With any game I'll pay for what I think is worth my dollar. Valve could make that leap for L4D on xbox but not TF2. Maybe we can hold out hope for a spectacular full re-release on console (with some means of built-in updating)

Boonoo said:
Part of it is that modern TF2 simply can't run on consoles. From what I understand they just don't have enough memory. You can see it somewhat on the PC. Computers that used to be able to play the game at passable rates at launch have serious trouble now.

Edit: I just looked at the 'recommended' specs; they'd have trouble keeping a holding 30 with everything on low.
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I wouldn't go as far as saying that any game is beyond porting to a current gen console. Developers do spectacular things.
 
TL;DR

All of it anyway......... :\

The simple fact of the matter is the concept of Steamworks in Xbox Live is just too much redundancy and overlap in features. There's already the same system in Live. It was bad enough EA got to do their BS of running their own servers, and while Valve wouldn't take advantage of it like EA does, MS isn't gonna budge for this very reason.

However, if the stats and stuff got to go back to Valve, so that whatever you do in a Valve game on and Xbox got sent to Steam, all that Steam Cloud stuff, that's all well and good. Just not ALL of Steam.

As for the example of TF2 not getting the updates the PC did.....I don't see the connection. Even if there is a limited amount of free updates allowed on Live, Valve's free updates on the PC keep people coming to Steam for games.......its the carrot.

The rest of the complaints about how Live works in relation to free updates and all that, point made, but the developers need to engage more with MS and the public on this. Why is it only now we're hearing about all this? For an ever-evolving game like TF2 (which is rare on most any platform, except for MMOs), one would think an exception would be made. There is very much an MMO-like feeling to the way Valve updates TF2.
 
Have many of you simply not been paying attention? The isn't anywhere near to the first time Gabe/Valve has voiced their displeasure with Live and their shitty policies. They've been on that hate train for a few years now.

Is it that Sony fans are just now paying attention to him? I would understand that I suppose.
 
OldJadedGamer said:
Both MS and Sony charge for patches. MS gives you the first one free but then all the rest of them are $10,000 last I heard. Sony charges each time and their patch cost is in line with MS's. It's put in place so that developers/publishers don't release an unfinished game and then patch it a thousand times... like they do on PC sometimes.

Valve could do all the updates they want, they just don't want to pay for it. Not sure how this is going to change on the PS3 as the updates still need to go through certification at Sony which costs money.
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Show me proof on this and forgive me if I don't believe you.
 
The Faceless Master said:
the worst thing about the 360 patches is the patch system that only patches the executable so you have to download content packs from marketplace in addition to getting the patch.

no, wait, the worst thing is the cache system that deletes game patches if you have more than like 5, despite the size of your hdd, rendering some game saves unworkable.
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I was thinking about the latter the other day. It really IS like that, isn't it?

This is why I don't like to trust everything to the cloud.

One day in like 25-30 years when I'm retired and I wanna play this stuff again, and all the 360s are dead, and Live is gone, the only way I'll be able to play this stuff is via an emulator and a version ripped by pirates. Only they have the ability to archive this stuff.
 
Stallion Free said:
I'm pretty sure 360 and PS3 don't have enough RAM to hold all the hat data from TF2 during a given round. It would have to come without hats. And hats are the game, so what's the point?
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Actually the last time they talked about the 360 update they mentioned issues with the limitations of the 512 ram being a hurtle for them to get past before they could actually push out the update.
Hylian7 said:
While that's obviously a joke, it does make me wonder how some of the unlocks would work on TF2. Think about it, aiming the Ambassador or Huntsman could possibly be damn near impossible on an analog stick, just because of how ridiculously accurate you have to be with those weapons, the Huntsman to a slightly lesser extent. What about the Direct Hit? You're going to have to pull some crazy movements on a dime to successfully use that thing. What about doing the Force-A-Nature's third jump? You might want to turn your sensitivity all the way up for that one, or just spend the whole jump looking at the ground below you and not where you're going. Anyone else get this feeling?
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I custom mapped jump to the right bumper to make rocket jumping easier on the 360 tf2
 
-PXG- said:
I guess Sony bought Gabe lunch.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A




I don't think this will change much. This is just a public announcement to express Gabes dislike for a Microsoft policy. Valve games will still be a the xbox, and I will still buy them. You want free patches, go buy a PC. Damn near any nowadays can play all valve games. If PS3 is given free valve updates and stuff, good for them, that's just the ways she goes.
 
shagg_187 said:
I'm afraid of this thread now...


PSN release (or bundled up with Portal 2) and you got yourself a goddamn purchase!!
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TF2 on the PC is well over 5 GBs. And I'm not even sure that counts the Source engine (I don't think it does).

I don't know what the PSN limit is, but I imagine it's a big smaller than 5 (and growing) gigs.

I'd say at this point, to get TF2 to PC level, it would have to be a full release, or as a stand alone disc packed into Portal 2. I just don't see it as a downloadable title, since it's game size + engine is massive.

For reference TF2 started as a smidgen under 2.5 gigs. Content updates have doubled the games's size!
 
Hylian7 said:
While that's obviously a joke, it does make me wonder how some of the unlocks would work on TF2. Think about it, aiming the Ambassador or Huntsman could possibly be damn near impossible on an analog stick, just because of how ridiculously accurate you have to be with those weapons, the Huntsman to a slightly lesser extent. What about the Direct Hit? You're going to have to pull some crazy movements on a dime to successfully use that thing. What about doing the Force-A-Nature's third jump? You might want to turn your sensitivity all the way up for that one, or just spend the whole jump looking at the ground below you and not where you're going. Anyone else get this feeling?
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I can't imagine why Steamworks enabled Valve ps3 games wouldn't support kb/m controls. Sony allows it.
 
TF2 on the PC is well over 5 GBs. And I'm not even sure that counts the Source engine (I don't think it does).

I don't know what the PSN limit is, but I imagine it's a big smaller than 5 (and growing) gigs.
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I could be wrong, but if Sony sells full retail games like Infamous and Red Faction over PSN, a 5 gig game shouldn't violate any rules. It won't happen at this point, but I would be on board for TF2 complete on PSN. I spent some time with it on 360 and it was awesome even as a gimped console game.
 
Talking about steamwork for ps3. some features will make it through... What about the achievement? Can i get double the achievement and trophy? :lol
 
OCDBuzz said:
I wouldn't go as far as saying that any game is beyond porting to a current gen console. Developers do spectacular things.
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From the tf2 blog last year.

The XBox 360 update is still being worked on. If you're wondering what's taking so long, since the content is "done" on the PC already, it's mostly been around fitting it all onto the XBox. The original version of TF2 in the Orange Box was very close to the XBox's memory limit, and all the additional TF2 content we've produced has pushed well beyond it. We've found a couple of nifty ways to get back a bunch of that memory, but it's turned out to be a lot of work, and that's what most of our time is being spent on. In the meantime, we're going to get a code update out to address the server cheating that's going on.
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And looking at just how far performance has dropped off on the PC side (I'm not sure if the game is even playable outside of single digit fps with it's required specs anymore--as above the recommended specs have trouble with a smooth 30 with everything on low) I think they'd be hard pressed to get it running. And there have been a lot of updates since then. I think at that point they only had 3 class updates done. And it's been the updates since then that most drastically impacted performance.
 
DMPrince said:
Talking about steamwork for ps3. some features will make it through... What about the achievement? Can i get double the achievement and trophy? :lol
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I think they should have a Platinum for each set of Class trophies/achievements.
 
Stallion Free said:
I think they should have a Platinum for each set of Class trophies/achievements.
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As long as it's the base platinum. Didn't Sony update to where when dev add new trophies it gets a sub category? I need it to say 100% Platinum! and not like 80%!
 
I'd kill for Portal 2 on PS3 to support Steam Play, so I could download it on Mac as well. :lol
 
Interfectum said:
I'm guessing most if not all the 360 users have quit playing that version and it would be a waste of their time to update it.
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there is still a healthy community around Xbox TF2, of course I dont have numbers but there are never any shortage of games being played even after all this time. Just finished playing a number of games this morning, looking forward to getting home from work and getting back on tonight.
 
speculawyer said:
Well . . . bandwidth does cost money. I often wonder when Valve will change their own strategy at least a little bit. It is weird how when I log in, Steam starts updating 5 different games. Why? What if I never play game X, why bother?

But I agree that xbox live is too stingy with updates. I guess that is because they want the disc versions of the games too be good. No shipping shitty games and then fixing them later with updates since that doesn't work for the people w/o internet connections. That is something Valve does not have to contend with.

Damn, I'm going back & forth here. :lol
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Uhmmmm, just tell Steam not to update stuff you don't want updating!?!?!?
 
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