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[Guilty_AI]

Fine, I'll do it without mentioning how insane the presentation is (which is indeed important to a good combat system btw).

TLOU2's gunplay is essentially flawless for what it wants to achieve, which is to be a useful tool but not dominate the rest of the mechanics so that game becomes a shooting gallery like Gears.

The general loop TLOU2 wants to achieve in it's combat is the following...
Stealth >>> Spotted >>> Shoot >>> Enemies Close Distance >>> Melee/Improvise >>> Enemies Overwhelm >>> You Die/Frantically run away and repeat the cycle.

This is why they showcase the game this way instead of simply doing a demo where Ellie just casually owns everyone. Yes, this demo is scripted, but it does reflect the general loop of the final game very well.


Scrappy Desperation. The A.I, Level Design, Weapon and resource balancing, gunplay, movement, everything is built to push that feeling.

This is why the game, except one weapon at the end of the game, only has single shot weapons. Why weapon sway is enabled. Why you get knocked to the ground after the getting shot. Why you can't carry that much ammo or resources. Why there's no cover button. And it's also why the game imo, simply doesn't work on lower difficulties (this includes normal), all that work on careful balancing and smart design choices is destroyed in favor of almost unlimited ammo and health, destroying said loop. The more you make the game a shooting gallery the worse it becomes, because while the game is playable as a shooting gallery, the mechanics aren't built for it specifically.

What makes the game incredibly impressive from a design standpoint is that it manages to create this tension and scrappy desperation while still allowing a remarkable amount of freedom in movement and in scope in levels. I believe ND called TLOU's combat back in 2012 "a balance of power", this is a perfect description because it manages to make the player feeling both vulnerable and impowered in the same encounter most of the time. They didn't fully achieve this with Part 1, but did with Part 2.

Compare and think about how alot of survival games create tension, by removing player moblity and making enemies bulletsponges instead. Thus, Resident Evil (yes even 4) is too limiting, MSGV is too freeing removing any real challenge unless self enforced, while TLOU2 has the middle ground nothing else has achieved.

I appreciate the effort, but you're mostly talking about a specific flavor of combat rather than something that makes it inherently better than others.

You mentioned MGSV for example. Even if you consider itself "too freeing", the "flavor" of that game has less to do with survival/desperation and more to do with controlling a super badass soldier that has to balance between mission objectives and his own interests. Challenges aren't "self enforced" as much as they are about weighing your interests in growing mother base (thus playing more carefully and usually non-lethaly) against just taking the easiest approach to get the mission done. Do you take a sniper rifle and assassinate your target from afar, or do you go through the trouble of invading the base just to get the target for yourself?

That in itself doesn't make it better or worse, its just one specific approach for design. There are even games like the new System Shock Remake that aim for horror-like tension without unempowering the player similar to TLOU2, and successfully achieve it through completely different means. Again, not really better or worse, just its own flavor.

 

[Insane Metal]

Cmon give us your true vision bro.

What the fuck! Out of nowhere

 

[64bitmodels]

I appreciate the effort, but you're mostly talking about a specific flavor of combat rather than something that makes it inherently better than others.

You mentioned MGSV for example. Even if you consider itself "too freeing", the "flavor" of that game has less to do with survival/desperation and more to do with controlling a super badass soldier that has to balance between mission objectives and his own interests. Challenges aren't "self enforced" as much as they are about weighing your interests in growing mother base (thus playing more carefully and usually non-lethaly) against just taking the easiest approach to get the mission done. Do you take a sniper rifle and assassinate your target from afar, or do you go through the trouble of invading the base just to get the target for yourself?

That in itself doesn't make it better or worse, its just one specific approach for design. There are even games like the new System Shock Remake that aim for horror-like tension without unempowering the player similar to TLOU2, and successfully achieve it through completely different means. Again, not really better or worse, just its own flavor.

To be fair the fact that TLOU2 supposedly achieved that middle ground is an accomplishment and players might prefer it themselves. I agree that it's not the "definitive" way of handling these balances-when you compromise you're likely to lose out on some aspects of both approaches. The fact they did it well is an achievement though. At least according to these guys. The biggest Naughty Dog and Sony shills on the board. Shilling for a critically divisive game and praising the combat of a narrative focused franchise where its latest entry has major writing problems.

 

[Guilty_AI]

To be fair the fact that TLOU2 supposedly achieved that middle ground is an accomplishment and players might prefer it themselves. I agree that it's not the "definitive" way of handling these balances-when you compromise you're likely to lose out on some aspects of both approaches. The fact they did it well is an achievement though. At least according to these guys. The biggest Naughty Dog and Sony shills on the board. Shilling for a critically divisive game and praising the combat of a narrative focused franchise where its latest entry has major writing problems.

Most people i spoke with who played this said it's just a normal stealth action game, my brief experience with it agreed with them. Then the ones in these board come and say "No but you actually have to play it on grounded for it to be good!" and my first thought at that is: obscuring their supposed strengths behind a "scary" difficulty mode most people won't touch is a design problem in itself.

How is that much different from self-imposed limitations some might do in other games? The general assumption people will make is that "normal" or "hard" is how the game is supposed to be experienced, especially when many ultra-hard modes in other games just tend to make it unfair. Watch-dogs 2 is also an excellent stealth action game - as long as you play it non-lethaly that is, which even fits its narrative more closely. But most people won't do that, missing the "brilliant" design in the process, which makes it not so brilliant after all.

 

[ReBurn]

Druckmann seems to be in a bubble savoring the smell of his own farts right now. I have no doubt that whatever the Naughty Dog team creates will be a masterfully built game. I just wonder how long there will be space in the studio to fit both the team and his ego. He wouldn't be where he is without the talented people who brought the worlds to life.

 

[semiconscious]

“I’ve been lucky to work on several dream projects and am currently excited about a new one, which is perhaps the most thrilling yet,” he said.

i'm thinking a game about a somewhat smarmy game studio exec, & how he's managed to convince pretty much everyone that he's the best thing since sliced bread. that is, everyone but his slovenly, manic depressive, short tempered, hard-drinking former navy seal dad (who, unbeknownst to him, is also a successful drag queen & a professional hit man). it's a story about family, & reality, & love , & hate, but mostly, it's about graphically depicted extreme violence... &, as mentioned, hate...

 

[DForce]

This is just attention to detail in the combat. That's impressive but it just shows that it's a (very) realistic and responsive combat system. Not that it's the best.

from a gameplay perspective, Resident Evil 4 Remake was a far more fleshed out game in actual combat scenarios and moment to moment gameplay

Resident Evil 4 is weaker in many aspects.

Your primary melee weapon in Resident Evil 4 is a knife. You can use your knife to parry, perform melee attacks, and take out enemies in stealth. You can also use it to escape if an enemy grabs you. If you want to kick, punch or body slam your opponent, then you have to stagger your enemy first and then you can perform a single melee attack.

This is very different in The Last of Us Part II

You have a wide range of melee weapons and all attack differently based on size and sharpness (including upgraded weapons). Your melee attacks in RE4 are mainly focused on a single enemy whereas, in the Last of Us Part II, you can quickly transition from one enemy to the next. This is just with a melee weapon, if you're using your basic melee attacks, you can perform combos and use the environment around you to take down your opponent. You're not limited by a simple stagger and button prompt. You can also stun your opponent, and hold them hostage while shooting at other enemies.

And that attention to detail?

Well, look at Days Gone.

One of the complaints people have about Days Gone melee combat is how the attacks don't have "weight." It feels light when attacking an opponent.

This is why Last of Us has so-called "attention to detail." Every melee attack feels like it has weight to it. One of the ways you can feel this is when you're running toward an enemy with a melee weapon and perform a baseball bat-like swing.

This is just one example.

 

[64bitmodels]

You have a wide range of melee weapons and all attack differently based on size and sharpness (including upgraded weapons). Your melee attacks in RE4 are mainly focused on a single enemy whereas, in the Last of Us Part II, you can quickly transition from one enemy to the next. This is just with a melee weapon, if you're using your basic melee attacks, you can perform combos and use the environment around you to take down your opponent. You're not limited by a simple stagger and button prompt. You can also stun your opponent, and hold them hostage while shooting at other enemies.

That multi enemy melee doesn't really matter as much when you don't have swarms of enemies attacking you from all sides like RE4 does- TLOU2 from footage seems to use a more stealth oriented combat system.

RE4 also has environmental usage too, in a much more broad sense too. Enemies can attack each other and stagger themselves, shooting lanterns on the ceiling can ignite fire which you can use to damage an enemy, the classic explosives, etc.
Plus all the enemy types in RE4, flying enemies, enemies that posess other enemies (the fucking spider parasites), enemies that sprout a parasite from their head when they die, etc.

They all attack in different ways too. They have a whole ass arcade mode in mercenaries to explore all of the combat scenarios in more detail too which for as detailed as TLOU2's combat is, it kind of lacks (from what I know)

 

[Warnen]

 

[Represent.]

How is RE4 moment to moment combat in any way better than TLOU 2? Name one thing it does better in combat. TLOU 2 has better action AND better stealth. Way more options in combat, way better AI, everything is just better.

All Leon can do is roundhouse kick - lmfao. how is that better than being able to go prone, shoot in any position, excellent melee combat, vertical level design, etc. are you people out of your mind.

nothing in RE4 is touching the combat scenarios possible in TLOU 2 hillcrest level

TLOU 2 is 2 generations ahead in terms of pure moment to moment combat. Please stop letting nostalgia cloud your mind

 

[Strategize]

They have a whole ass arcade mode in mercenaries to explore all of the combat scenarios in more detail too which for as detailed as TLOU2's combat is, it kind of lacks (from what I know)

Doesn't lack there either, they put a roguelike mode in the TLOU2 remaster and it's much more in depth than mercenaries with more maps, more characters, more game modes and random modifiers each time.

 

[DForce]

That multi enemy melee doesn't really matter as much when you don't have swarms of enemies attacking you from all sides like RE4 does- TLOU2 from footage seems to use a more stealth oriented combat system.

RE4 also has environmental usage too, in a much more broad sense too. Enemies can attack each other and stagger themselves, shooting lanterns on the ceiling can ignite fire which you can use to damage an enemy, the classic explosives, etc.
Plus all the enemy types in RE4, flying enemies, enemies that posess other enemies (the fucking spider parasites), enemies that sprout a parasite from their head when they die, etc.

They all attack in different ways too. They have a whole ass arcade mode in mercenaries to explore all of the combat scenarios in more detail too which for as detailed as TLOU2's combat is, it kind of lacks (from what I know)

One of the most common techniques in Resident Evil 4-6 is having enemies grouped together and then taking them out with one melee attack. You can do this with Leon's kick in Resident Evil 4 or Chris' punch in Resident Evil 5.

Enemies typically swarm in one direction the more you allow them to follow you. This is simply the "back to the wall technique" and it's common in video games. You can also do this in Last of Us Part II with the infected, but the only way to attack all enemies at once is to use an explosive, flamethrower, shotgun, or Molotov.

The point is that you have less freedom as a player in actual combat. Stealth is optional. I can choose to go stealthily or go right at them.

I'm a big fan of Resident Evil games, but their melee combat feels less satisfying.

Enemy types?

There are about 14 different enemy types in Resident Evil 4
The Last of Us Part II has about 10.

This does not include boss fights because Last of Us Part II has more. Just like in Last of Us Part II, Resident Evil has many enemies that are similar with small differences. Serephites attack differently from WLF soldiers, Rattlers are similar to WLF Soldiers but they have more armor. Dogs attack differently than humans, shambles attack differently than clickers and runners. Stalkers are undetectable and are waiting to grab you. Seraphites have brutes who weld large weapons and are harder to take down.

The list goes on. Both games have different enemy types, but yes, Resident Evil has more, but not by a lot.

 

[angrod14]

.

 

[Danjin44]

 

[DavidGzz]

Fuck me up, Neil.

 

[Brigandier]

This studio gets such a pass because of fanboys, For the size and backing that they have at their disposal their output post PS3 is abysmal, 2 new games since 2013 bravo.

It's time to do what they best... Develop and release some games, New IP certainly wouldn't hurt either.

"B-b-but games take a long time to make now" and various bullshit shilling gaslighting responses get fucked they are supposedly Sony's #1 studio they have huge funds and a massive studio, Time for them to get to work before Sony crack the whip!!!

 

[Oddvintagechap]

What about mainstream perception of fun ?

Damn nobody the Played Jak X, Uncharted 2, The Last of Us 1&2 had fun.

 

[Švejk]

 

[ProtoByte]

Druckmann seems to be in a bubble savoring the smell of his own farts right now. I have no doubt that whatever the Naughty Dog team creates will be a masterfully built game. I just wonder how long there will be space in the studio to fit both the team and his ego. He wouldn't be where he is without the talented people who brought the worlds to life.

Nobody ever has this criticism for other "idea guys" at game studios. Not that that's what Druckmann is.

The fact is that you a leader with a strong vision to get stuff like what ND does (yes, even TLOU2, which I have big story issues with) done.

Frankly, he should've let his ego take over more. I'm gonna keep banging this drum: Haley Gross seems to have created a sizeable number of the problems in Part II.

 

[kungfuian]

Neil and team may be hated for letting their progressive politics bleed into their art, that was always going to be polarizing, but that's what art is on some level so I could care less about agendas and all that. I'm much more interested in the execution of those ideas and Naughty Dog has more than proven themselves in that respect.

If I were a guessing man, and I am, I would bet on their new IP attempting to explore some unrepresented genre previously less explored in the AAA gaming space. Could be way off base but I'd imagine some type of romantic drama or something to that effect offering an Indi game type exploration of ideas and mechanics but with AAA budget and production values. Or it could be some type of 'Trans'media type interactive experience(s) with movies and games blended but with a super high budget pushing story telling to the Nth.

 

[ahtlas7]

This guy? Didn’t he move to movies?

 

[RJMacready73]

He can do absolutely no wrong in my book, he along with the insanely talented people at ND make exceptional games end of and a new ND game is an event equalled only by Rockstar

 

[Hudo]

The problem with him saying shit like is is that he obviously doesn't like and/or is embarrassed by video games and try-hards his way into hollywood. He has one good game under his belt (TLoU1) and one very disappointing game (TLoU 2). So let's see, I guess...

 

[Majukun]

Oh yeah those few more polygons and Ray tracing will really revolutionize the industry

 

[GymWolf]

You think George RR Martin actually wrote the dialogue for Elden Ring?

Maybe he wrote the script of the recap for vativydia?

 

[MH3M3D]

Better not be an artistic walking simulator like Alan Wake 2 or Hellblade 2. I actually prefer story over gameplay, but those games barely have any gameplay.

 

[SnapShot]

Strand type gaming move aside

 

[PropellerEar]

Could be a much more story based project with less "gamey" combat intended for gamers and non-gamers. Definitely a new IP.

Actual Gameplay 5/10
No gameplay 11/10 GOTY masterpiece

 

[NeverYouMind]

How is RE4 moment to moment combat in any way better than TLOU 2? Name one thing it does better in combat. TLOU 2 has better action AND better stealth. Way more options in combat, way better AI, everything is just better.

All Leon can do is roundhouse kick - lmfao. how is that better than being able to go prone, shoot in any position, excellent melee combat, vertical level design, etc. are you people out of your mind.

Parry mechanic for one. Wide shot from shotguns for two. Tapping a directional button and tossing out a stun grenade for three. The mine bolts are more versatile than mines in The Last of Us 2 for four. The player does not need to run away from multiple enemies to catch one around a corner or behind cover because they have no tools to use at that range like in The Last of Us 2. What does it matter how many positions your character can take a lead suppository from in The Last of Us 2 when they can only be combat effective in the same two offered in Resident Evil 4 Remake?

Outside of context sensitive dialogue all the enemies in The Last of Us 2 are dumb as bricks. Very easily sidetracked and manipulated. The same can be said about the three Garrador enemies in Resident Evil 4 Remake, but they are blind and rely on hearing alone. The Last of Us 2 enemies also move in a very robotic and predictable fashion making them easy to hit unlike the randomly swaying and face guarding enemies of Resident Evil 4. For all your talk of great melee it always comes down to two scenarios. Swinging stun strikes lead to kill or stealth strike leads to kill of one single enemy. Congrats on the context sensitive auto fatality, but there are no crowd control considerations.

P.S. Leon can also do German suplex and knockdown kick which are more useful than roundhouse in many scenarios as well as utilize the ubiquitous knife with multiple attacks.

 

[recursive]

The whole cast will consist of lgbtqjkopuh+-!/65 characters!

For the modern audience.

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[Vick]

Good ol GAF, where same people considering RE4R combat, melee, AI, superior to this..

















Feel in the position to call clowns those who disagree with such demented takes. Always the same two goofus as well. You love to see it.

 

[Woggleman]

Tlou2 is western story based game made by a guy with some progressive views. That alone means it could never have good gameplay in the eyes of some people.

 

[Bernardougf]

Tlou2 is western story based game made by a guy with some progressive views. That alone means it could never have good gameplay in the eyes of some people.

What exactly the story has to do with game play ? A game can be 10/10 gameplay and 0/10 story .. take dark souls series.. couldn't care less for the lore or story but love the gameplay and the games.. the problem is that at heavily narrative driven games like TLOU2 the story has as much wait as the game play.. so the game will be judge as whole as it should. And a bad story will drag down good play and vice-versa. I for one think the gameplay in the last of us games are very good but the story for the second one is so bad that took the fun and joy of me playing, so there was no point in finishing.. like finishing a bad 20 hour movie just because.

Good for the people that liked ... as all movies and games.. is not for everyone.

The first game continues to be my Goty and Goat candidate.

 

[Roberts]

At this point in time, betting against Druckman/Naughty Dog is like betting against James Cameron, you'll only end up making a fool of yourself

Did you seriously compare that guy with Cameron? A guy who so desperately wants to be an auteur he rips off every shot, every dramatic beat from others?

 

[Dr. Claus]

Good ol GAF, where same people considering RE4R combat, melee, AI, superior to this..

















Feel in the position to call clowns those who disagree with such demented takes. Always the same two goofus as well. You love to see it.

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[FoxMcChief]

And they both love it

 

[kingfish]

I honestly don't understand the constant online bitterness towards this man.
It's almost like a personal vendetta for some, and that's truly weird.

 

[Vick]

I honestly don't understand the constant online bitterness towards this man.
It's almost like a personal vendetta for some, and that's truly weird.

Most of it is the usual bias, nothing more than the degradating retarded warring plaguing gaming discourse since its inception.. but not all of it.

Personally, this is what I posted in the past regarding my "hate" for Druckmann:

"I know this will trigger some people but personally, Neil Druckmann really did single handedly destroyed what I loved the most in this industry.

Uncharted was my favorite series during the whole 360/PS3 era, The Last of Us 2013 my favorite game ever, Naughty Dog my favorite company.

Fast forward today and Uncharted is dead, The Last of Us stuff only pisses me off, and I'm not looking forward to ND future projects.

I've always been an avid Making Of kind of guy, and so ever since 2007 I've always felt Amy, Straley and Balestra brought real magic to that studio.. that studio no longer exists."

But nowdays I've realized I'd still play ND games than 99% of what's on the market. Yeah, I obviously wish TLOU3 could aspire to writing as good as The Witcher 3 to say one, or being free from the radical ideologies you can perceive behind the work, but even in this regard despite all the controversy the themes in something like Part II still feel more earned and tame compared to what we get anyway from 100% of western companies on the market these days, aside from a literal bunch like Teyon and.. asian games. And mind you, I have yet to accept Part II as more than a fanfiction sequel to TLOU.

Because in the end, nobody does games like ND.. many tried and all failed miserably for me, even great studios like Santa Monica or the best software house you can name, every attempt at emulating ND not only comes across as clumsy at best (RE4R, since it's been mentioned already is a shining example of this in many ways), it also massively hurts the game because you can't have those limited structures or long narrative expositions if your mechanics don't feel sublime analog in hand every instant of the experience, visual feedback needs to be flawless and captivating no matter how minuscule the action you perform is, and ND learned this almost two decades ago.
Walking simulators are literally my most despised genre there is in the entire industry, I've never completed a single one, and even limited sections of this nature if not well implemented could entirely kill games for me (lit happened with Ragnarök), and yet I've played and replayed ND games countless times and still do all the time.

Irony overload. This being posted by the best reenactor, probably ever, of this character..

Laughing alone like a mentally ill clown in the entire Thread at sensible factual takes shared by the majority.

Is chef kiss material. Farewell Dr. Claus.. and what a fitting name too.

 

[McGILLAZ]

The Last of They/Them

 

[NeverYouMind]

Good ol GAF, where same people considering RE4R combat, melee, AI, superior to this..

















Feel in the position to call clowns those who disagree with such demented takes. Always the same two goofus as well. You love to see it.

 

[Faust]

Let’s drop the antagonism and stick to discussing the topic of the thread.

 

[Vick]

Funny pic indeed, considering my previously shared opinion on the game's combat is that is a lite version of God of War with competent shooting mechanics on top, compelling AI and unparalleled execution.

Far from "best combat in videogames", and yet still surely miles away alternatives in the genre like entirety of survivals including the RE4R you mentioned in your previous bizarre post.. and you'll truly realize just how outlandish that was once the game comes on PC.

 

[Represent.]

Good ol GAF, where same people considering RE4R combat, melee, AI, superior to this..

















Feel in the position to call clowns those who disagree with such demented takes. Always the same two goofus as well. You love to see it.

Nothing in RE4 is coming close to any of this. It’s not hyperbole. TLOU 2 plays like a game 2 generations ahead of RE4 remake. They are not on the same level.

Disagree and it’s just nostalgia talking. You can’t do any of this shit in RE4.

The people who think it had better combat are simply not being honest

Enemy variety =/= better COMBAT

 

[NeverYouMind]

Funny pic indeed, considering my previously shared opinion on the game's combat is that is a lite version of God of War with competent shooting mechanics on top, compelling AI and unparalleled execution.

Far from "best combat in videogames", and yet still surely miles away alternatives in the genre like entirety of survivals including the RE4R you mentioned in your previous bizarre post.. and you'll truly realize just how outlandish that was once the game comes on PC.

I played the PS4 version. It is not that good. When it comes out on PC I will not care. You can tout interactivity and graphical fidelity all you want but there is very limited fun to be had with its mechanics and AI. As far as mainstream perceptions are concerned it is television series level writting and presentation with forced combat and platforming segments. Like the original, it was more fun watching it be played than playing it. Unfortunately, the plot of the sequel betrayed many genuine fans of the original so there is little point in them sticking around.

 

[Vick]

there is very limited fun to be had with its mechanics and AI.

Tell that to No Return players having a blast all day long.

But given how wildly different our views are I feel there's little point in having this discussion going.

 

[Woggleman]

I can spend hours just replaying encounters and using different tactics.

 

[NeverYouMind]

I can spend hours just replaying encounters and using different tactics.

But do you? I am inclined to take the path of least resistance myself.

 

[Woggleman]

But do you? I am inclined to take the path of least resistance myself.

Yes I do. I turn the difficulty up to grounded and then I see how I can lure enemies into traps.