sono
Gold Member
Does this add weight to the suggestion that its bait,or is it a big deal to change now?
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VGLeaks: Durango GPU detailed
- Thread starter phosphor112
- Start date
Does this add weight to the suggestion that its bait,or is it a big deal to change now?
I am actually somewhat interested in multimedia capabilities of both platforms. Games on them will be more dev-budget limited than processing power limited, and if you think the state of AAA games is bad just wait until those console roll out. It's to be a bloody cesspool.
Cool. That might tempt someone to go for a cheeky short cycle.
I'd expect next-next gen machines to have less issues with BC? Architectures don't look like changing dramatically
They can run with these consoles for longer if a solution for current manufacturing problems isn't found.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
That's a very interesting article, a lot of information on optimizations that have been made. I've been on a train for the last three hours, has any serious effort been put toward discussing the body of the article or have we spent 27 pages bickering over what we already knew (the whole 1.2 TFLOPS vs. 1.8 TFLOPS issue)?
Easy there warrior. No need to jump off the deep end.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
I think you know the answer to this.
It gives you a general idea I never said it would give a good idea of how it compares.
Durango is expected to provide TV overlays so in theory they'll be able to show you XBL ads before you even boot up the console
SneakyStephan
Banned
Since you follow tech, what about memristors for the following years?
Those have IBM and HP behind them (not some ghost ware) and were only delayed from 2013 consumer launch (for replacing flash cards) due to business agreements with hynix who weren't happy with shitting on their own flash memory production with this new tech so fast.
It's supposed to be extemely low power (don't need power to retain memory state, like flash) and are supposed to be suited (both density , latency and bandwidth wise) to replace RAM within a few years. Densities should even be high enough to replace HDDS (better than current flash based HDDs too).
They can supposedly be made with the same manufacturing methods as current memory and use cheap materials. (the reason why most new techs aren't viable to take off is because they'd need all new fabs and a long learning curve for the new methods)
This shit is supposed to be a revolution for storage and memory once it's out for consumers and it has none of the pitfalls that doom most of these inventions into never materialising.
Power savings for data centers etc would supposedly be HUGE (having ram and temporary storage that doesn't need to be powered) so there's no reason for the industry to not be all over this as soon as possible.
SuicideUZI
Member
if the console GPUs are really going to be this weak I wonder if in 2 - 3 years we will start seeing a transition back to games being developed for PC and ported to consoles and more PC exclusives, because by that time PC hardware will completely dominate what the next gen consoles are turning out to be
Hyperbole much?
Even if we assume the present leak to be legitimate; the specs of Durango not to have changed in the span of a whole year; the absence of DME and other computing modules hinted by insiders...Even on paper, the 720 will NOT be far weaker. Since when does a SUPPOSED THEORETICAL 30% GPU advantage translate into some performance gulf?
Because unlike the Ferrari, PS4 will be affordable
I think the 7800GTX in 2005 had more raw power than Xenos and yet Xenos lasted until 2012
The lead platform will probably be decided based on ease of development or market penetration.
Orbis seems as easy to develop for as Durango, if not easier.
There is really no way to predict sales at least until both have been fully unveiled, so I think it's early to say that Durango will lead.
There is a lot of information which reads almost exactly like AMD developer docs for GCN, which is why there were comments in the first couple of pages saying exactly that, and calling out the coverage of 'special sauce' as possibly just highlighting existing GCN features (which orbis will have too)
Orbis will likely be the lead platform since the architectures are so similar and it's easy to work with. It's much easier to port down and it winds up having better results for all platforms.
The only question is how much of a performance boost will ESRAM provide, as the PS4 won't also have an DirectX API overhead. The 2 extra shaders compared to the 7770 are offset by the lower clocks.
Assumptions everywhere!
Struck down again? There is some magic sauce. *wink* *wink*
Call it what ever car you want, for all I care, you may name the PS4 a BMW hatchback. That is not the point. The point is there is always a cheaper car that performs at least on the same value for money ratio as that car.
Sony seems to be choosing 4GB GDDR5 and a better (bigger) GPU, that costs extra money.
For the sake of argument lets assume MS doesn't incorporate Kinect in every SKU sold these are the scenario's:
1) 720 is cheaper than PS4.
2) 720 equals the price of PS4 because MS is asking a premium/want's less of a loss upfront.
3) 720 equals the price of PS4 because Sony is willing to take a bigger loss
1 is possible: if 720 performs 30% less, but costs 30% less there is a market for it. And it could easily have a bunch of software features that make it worthwhile for consumers, like tons of apps.
2 is possible, MS could easily 'gamble' that their brand and ecosystem, apps, is worth a premium.
3 doubtful, Sony isn't in the financial position to aggressively subsidize their consoles as past days.
1 and 2 are the ways the 720 will be sold, or tried to be sold.
What games are mainly developed for PC? Because from what I've seen 99% of games are developed with 360/PS3 in mind.
MaulerX
Member
Speculating on what Thurott hinted with regards to "multiple devices" (if at all true), then where would that place what we are currently seeing? Would this be the weaker or the stronger one? Just brain storming speculation, is it at all possible that Microsoft might have concocted an architecture who's games scale depending on the hardware used (similar to PC)? Dev's could target the stronger hardware but said game would auto-scale down to the weaker one (lower res, less effects etc...).
JohnnySasaki86
Member
It seems like the biggest thing was the confirmation of 360 having 16 ROPs vs Orbis' 32 ROPs. We still have no information on what the move engine are.
On paper perhaps but the differences may become less of a noticeable issue with actual software to run. And I the gap, no matter which way you cut it is not "far".
I think both Sony and MS want to go back to 5 year console cycle.
This is just so sad.
This is a rumor it confirms nothing......
Kinect is going to be in the box so the rest of your 'analysis' is pointless.
Death Dealer
Member
I don't know why you would assume that. X360 was the lead because it was more PC like to develop on, PS3 hw was alien to most game programmers at the time. Also X360 launched a year before PS3.
None of those are factors next gen. This time around, I think MS has a marginal lead in tool development, but it's nothing like the chasm between systems at the start of this generation. Plus they're both using the same CPU and GPU architectures. The developers wanted it that way.
For multiplatform games, I don't think there will be a lead system, they're more similar than different. The memory is the biggest difference, and I'm certain the third parties will try and target the least common denominator between them. PS4's ram capacity, and Xbox's ram bandwidth.
They don't have to go out of their way to take advantage of a more powerful GPU. On the same code, it will have more cycles left over to do extra things, like display higher image quality and/or frame rate.
Proelite
Member
Thurotte knows less about next generation consoles than the average gaffer.
If the specs are true, expect to have multiplats to be in favor of the PS4 regardless of lead platform. It's one thing to make a PS3 port and try to compensate for the weaker GPU by using the Cell and worrying about synchronization and job scheduling, but another to take advantage of extra shaders and ROPS in a GPU with the same basic architecture, which is far easier.
Except Thurott actually has insider information that we wouldn't.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Hey can you comment on the Vertex and triangle rate? You originally said Durango would be a bit better than the 1.6 billion per sec listed in the Orbis article. This posting says Durango is the same.
scar tissue
Banned
So we had to put up with an 8 year generation (if Durango launches in Fall) and we get this shit? And it's possible the bad specs are due to Kinect being in the box? Are you fucking kidding me?
MS will have to show some great games to convince me to put up with vastly inferior graphics for another 8 years. But we'll see how big the difference is in-game. If it's not drastically bigger than PS3>360 (which was a pretty big gap, TBH), I'd be okay with it.
MS will have to show some great games to convince me to put up with vastly inferior graphics for another 8 years. But we'll see how big the difference is in-game. If it's not drastically bigger than PS3>360 (which was a pretty big gap, TBH), I'd be okay with it.
SneakyStephan
Banned
You were saying the value would come from being able to carry the groceries (i.e functionality the ps4 wouldn't be able to do , which it can since it's not an exotic oneminded design), now you change your reasoning to pricing?
And yes, it has been said before that ms will have to price it lower... How much lower and if people will be willing to go for the weaker machine with the lower framerates or whatever it ends up with (with the last 8 year cycle in mind, remember? this isn't a thing you buy for 6 months, personally I wouldn't risk going for the weakest port machine) will have to be seen, noone knows that. MS can't know that either so I'm amazed they're actually trying.
If they don't go with a kinect pack in they can do that, else they are really betting the farm on people having no concept of value or loving kinect.
I hope you don't mind me actively disliking kinect, that's my only bias here.
Anyhow my angle in all this is that it's not good for gamers and not good for multiplatform games and not good for pc gamers either. Lowest common denominator to drag the baseline down before the gen has even started. If I had my wish they'd both be reasonable and both be about 2TF.
Hey, it could have been worse, at least this puts the 'cartel' suggestion (which isn't that far fetched just look at the HDD market right now
or hell the last 70 years of capitalism) at rest.They could have just both gone for a 1 TF console and sell at a big mark up.
So...incredibly gimped by main memory bandwidth, even more than was speculated. Not a single person even suggested you'd have to resolve to main memory to use a render target. Looks like Durango is even weaker than the lowest estimates.
Am I doing it right GAF?
In all seriousness I wonder what those certain cases are.
In all seriousness I wonder what those certain cases are.
Considering how much they spend researching and developing the hardware do you think it would be wise to get back to a shorter cycle?
I for one would approve something like that if the prices are right.
Was too lazy to spell it out, but basically the same applies accept MS sees that Kinect is a justification for the same/higher price and is betting that the average joe, the ones that get you from 15 million sold to 90 million, don't care as much about the '30%' performance difference and would rather have an extra USP.
MS made the analysis and came to the conclusion, we could try to aim for the maximum performance in a console box, but the added price/power isn't worth it. The picture on screen isn't going to be generation leaps ahead of what we can do with 75% performance. Sure it will look better, but will Joe Average notice? Probably not, it would still look fucking awesome to him.
Proelite
Member
Wasn't he the one who believed that Xbox10 will come out in late 2012?
Proelite
Member
Bkilian on B3D already suggested as much. Kinect took a lot of the BOM, and Kinect + OS is taking a lot of the currently available ram.
Rounding error. I did say single digit percentage.
That could be 1-2%.I hope you are right. This gen has gone on for far, far too long.
Insane Metal
Member
Can we have a comparison between the supposed Durango's vs. Orbis' fillrate?
Depends on how long ago we are talking if this was years ago it could've been a valid speculation. Also just because he speculates from time to time doesn't mean the inside information he has is wrong.
Durango is half empty and Orbis is half full.
Yeah, I do think you underestimate how much people love so called 'natural user interfaces' and you seem to neglect the fact that MS has that much more room to implement various features and assume that all of them will be of no value to you or anyone on this board. It's like when 360 launched and Sony fans were ridiculing stuff like messaging, voice chat and achievements as unnecessary and not crucial.
Obviously Microsoft might still come up with a bunch of useless non-sense, who knows. They seem certainly unable to compete against Google or Apple in most new areas.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
nope, his comments were taken out of context
What he said was that IF the xbox was going to launch in 2012, they would of announced it early on last year around ces which a lot of people for some reason though he meant they were going to show off the xbox(to be fair, the xbox supposedly was there behind closed doors.). He made the comment prior to CES 2012.
That's what he said. He didn't say it WAS launching.
Insane Metal
Member
So basically pessimistic (Durango) vs. optimistic (Orbis). I'll take optimistic please!
phosphor112
Banned
We can look forward to Nintendo. (Looks at other thread) Damn.
Lol, I don't think this'll be a bad gen though.
1st Course
Member
This might be off-topic but generally speaking I think that the 3Dmark tech demos gives a good look of what to expect from next gen:
3DMark05:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xrReCeiZPc
3DMark06:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGoI5qJM2A8
3DMark (2013):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjb18q8FFX0
3DMark05:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xrReCeiZPc
3DMark06:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGoI5qJM2A8
3DMark (2013):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjb18q8FFX0
Well the same could be said for PS2 and PS1. This time around, there is nothing one off pertaining either console's design. The R&D should be less than what Sony spent for PS3 at least. MS are smart judging from the days of 360 development. They will continue that legacy through to XB3.
A half a decade cycle (6 at most) would keep the market invigorated.
I find it fascinating that whenever specs that put XB3 is an unfavourable light to its direct competitor the information's nature, i.e., "rumour" takes precedence. And yet discussion rages on about the implication and ramifications based upon the rumoured specs. If nothing is absolutely certain then what is point of the discussion? Seems awfully wasteful.