Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
Can anyone extract assets from fight night 2? (PS2 or GC)
From the GameCube version should be fairly easy, why are you asking?Can anyone extract assets from fight night 2? (PS2 or GC)
Maybe they are not that massive after all lol , they look higher poly than they acually are, that is what I call good topology.Can anyone extract assets from fight night 2? (PS2 or GC)
thank you I honestly thought it would have more polygonsMaybe they are not that massive after all lol , they look higher poly than they acually are, that is what I call good topology.
I remember store demos. So many led me to buying systems. Particularly the SNES and Xbox 360 and even the PS2I think it was, that's why I bought one. I played Ferrari 355 Challenge in HMV and just knew......I HAD to have one.
The magic of modern tools ?Maybe they are not that massive after all lol , they look higher poly than they acually are, that is what I call good topology.
thank you I honestly thought it would have more polygons
It is more likely the bump mapping ( a per pixel lighting technique) - rather than per vertex lighting, and adding shadow mapping (doubling geometry per frame per character), along with the multi-texturing.Maybe they are not that massive after all lol , they look higher poly than they acually are, that is what I call good topology.
Shenmue numbers is not possible because this entire map has 61,057 tris Pier - wharehouses -.Old tools (2001/99 enhanced engine)
1,3 million polygons/s
More advanced tools (2005)
1,07 million polygons/s
Comparison from 3Dbeyond...
How would you improve Shenmue on Dreamcast with 2005 tools? (Under Defeat is a 2005 game and it clearly has much more advanced SFX than 99% of Dreamcast old library...)
IMO the two biggest possible improvements would have been using S3 video card maker's S3TC texture compression algorithmOld tools (2001/99 enhanced engine)
1,3 million polygons/s
More advanced tools (2005)
1,07 million polygons/s
Comparison from 3Dbeyond...
How would you improve Shenmue on Dreamcast with 2005 tools? (Under Defeat is a 2005 game and it clearly has much more advanced SFX than 99% of Dreamcast old library...)
61.057 times 30 equals 1.831.710Shenmue numbers is not possible because this entire map has 61,057 tris Pier - wharehouses -.
Dreamcast is very dependent on its vram it cannot afford to load the entire stage's polygons all the time. Of the 8mb around 1.2MB is for the frame buffer 50k poly (huge number) would take up 2 MB, so 4.8 MB would be left for textures and other routines, 4.8 even with vq compression is not ideal, the ideal would be 25k poly 1mb, 1.2mb buffer and 5.8mb textures.61.057 times 30 equals 1.831.710
Remove the culled tris and add the NPCs/meshes and 1.3 million per second is not unreasonable.
Shenmue numbers is not possible because this entire map has 61,057 tris Pier - wharehouses -.
you know, the PS2 can show polygons instantly because of its fast bus, think of it as a 'geometry compressor'. This was explained on Beyond3d
For example, that user measured Shenmue also measured 'Triggerheart exelica' on the Dreamcast it reaches the limit of 52,000-60fps 3M poly/s, however there is a superior version of the same game on the ps2, the same scene where Dreamcast displays 52,000 on the ps2 displays 8,000, same scene.
RE4 using the PC version he measured the village scene 65,629 tris (the entire stage has 46,796 tris) per frame x 30 fps = 1.9M poly/s
on PS2 it's 17,680 tris per frame x 30 fps = 530K poly/s (it's the same geometry, the same scene but with no post-processing in the PC version)
Understand it ? If this game was ported to the Dreamcast, it wouldn't have to deal with 17,680 poly, but 65,629 poly, unless the Dreamcast was also a PS2, then it could deal with 17,680 tris per frame.
How would you improve Shenmue on Dreamcast with 2005 tools? (Under Defeat is a 2005 game and it clearly has much more advanced SFX than 99% of Dreamcast old library...)
4.8MB is well within the texture budget for Shenmue, again, none of these number makes those number unreasonable.Dreamcast is very dependent on its vram it cannot afford to load the entire stage's polygons all the time. Of the 8mb around 1.2MB is for the frame buffer 50k poly (huge number) would take up 2 MB, so 4.8 MB would be left for textures and other routines, 4.8 even with vq compression is not ideal, the ideal would be 25k poly 1mb, 1.2mb buffer and 5.8mb textures.
From what I observed on the Dreamcast there are some games that perform well at 30fps with 40-44k and above that the fps drops to 20fps.
Illbleed 2001 has a stage with 55,308 tris when extracted from the assets but during the game in real time, it does not display even half of these polygons, there is fog, short draw distance and the trees appear as we walk. Therefore, I refuse to accept that when Ryo is placed against a wall, so many polygons are being displayed, especially in a game with notorious pop-in. it would be the same as accepting that IllBleed does the same thing, which is not the case.
Honestly, we can't take polygonal counting seriously on the Dreamcast except for cases like doa2 where the extracted stages has 10k sometimes a little more, characters almost 10k for a total of 1.8M ~ 2.1M.
This is just ridiculous, hardware OIT was one of the key features of the PowerVR chip so much so that Dreamcast to Gamecube ports had to downgrade or even remove them. SA could do 32 layers of transparency, as an example, hell, Chaos was made specifically to show off that the Dreamcast could do transparency with ease.Many Dreamcast fans wonder why the car windshields in Dreamcast games are black?
in fact not all, crazy taxi, v-rally 2, vanishing Point have full transparency while MSR, Test Drive Le mans have partial transparency.
this was due to the way Sega designed its hardware, again they concluded that transparency would make the project more expensive, at first no one noticed due to the superiority of the console compared to the N64 and PS1 But this weakness would be evident if the Dreamcast tried to replicate Scud Race aka Super GT a game entirely focused on transparencies, even Faster Than Speed did not overcome the problem because it is something intrinsically linked to the hardware.
Soon tmI you could add a simplified version of Soulcalibur 3 egypt stage, you would be my hero
I assume the 32layers was because the colour framebuffer was a R5_G5_B5_A1 (16bit) buffer? And the alpha channel was used to set transparency on/off and the 5 bits sum of (1, 2, 4, 8, 16) sum to 31, meaning 0-31 permutations giving 32 layers options, yes? The 16bit framebuffer also would explain why the Gourand shader polygon throughput was decent on the console, because the shading was done at half the precision of the typical PS2, Cube and Xbox games, and at that colour precision couldn't have really gained much from S3TC texture compression.This is just ridiculous, hardware OIT was one of the key features of the PowerVR chip so much so that Dreamcast to Gamecube ports had to downgrade or even remove them. SA could do 32 layers of transparency, as an example, hell, Chaos was made specifically to show off that the Dreamcast could do transparency with ease.
??? depth ???There he goes again with the buffers, no it had nothing to do with the buffer limit 32 was the peak SA1 used. But Omikron required 64 to even render correctly , the console supported up 256 layers.
Transparencies and the reduction of overdraw (because of the tile based deferred renderer) were the key strengths of the powervr2, to this days it’s the only console to have a hardware solution for it.
??? depth ???
You clearly don't understand the standardized colour buffer formats that have evolved over the last two to three decades of HW Accelerated GPUs if you don't understand what I am saying. A typical format for the last 3 gens would be RGBA_8888, with the alpha colour channel giving 256 levels of transparency (2^8). So 32 levels is non-standard relative to the PS2, Cube, Xbox and all the consoles that have followed.Not depth buffers either.
You clearly don't understand the standardized colour buffer formats that have evolved over the last two to three decades of HW Accelerated GPUs if you don't understand what I am saying. A typical format for the last 3 gens would be RGBA_8888, with the alpha colour channel giving 256 levels of transparency (2^8). So 32 levels is non-standard relative to the PS2, Cube, Xbox and all the consoles that have followed.
How on earth do you think transparency works in rasterization computer graphics if it isn't directly related to the GPUs colour render buffer formats ? 32 is derived somewhere in the dreamcast hardware from a 5bit storage in a register that aligns to an 8bit boundary for efficient use of RAM and performance in a binary digital system.The 32 limit had nothing to do with any buffer limit, it was the peak for layers SA1 got to.
I don’t know how much simpler I have to tell you this, it had nothing to do with any buffer limit
I don’t know why you are so eager to paint me as ignorant when you clearly have no clue about the actual specs of PowerVR2. Hell but you don’t even know anything about SMBD, did stop you from making 2 pages worth of ignorant assumptions.
I'm talking about transparency layers and ordering, why do you keep trying to talking about color? You have no clue what you are talking about.How on earth do you think transparency works in rasterization computer graphics if it isn't directly related to the GPUs colour render buffer formats ? 32 is derived somewhere in the dreamcast hardware from a 5bit storage in a register that aligns to an 8bit boundary for efficient use of RAM and performance in a binary digital system.
On 16bit systems they align on 16bits, and on 32bit systems they align on 32bits, etc. alpha channels are for transparency and are typical a fractional part of those registers, with the remainder being used for colour, hence the R5_G5_B5_A1 aligning to 32levels.
If like for hidden surface removal the Dreamcast GPU did something completely non-standard for transparency too, then feel free to point me to the technical documentation, if you have access to it.
The overriding thread question is surely a technical one in your opinion, no? So if my inference of R5_G5_B5_A1 as a limit is correct, then along with the vertex lighting, rather than per pixel shader lighting, it all illustrates a technical gulf between the Dreamcast and its would be peers, no?
So do you have access to the Dreamcast PowerVR technical documentation, yes or no? If yes we'll clear this discussion up quickly.I'm talking about transparent layers and polygon ordering, why do you keep trying to talking about color? You have no clue what you are talking about.
Again, 32 is just for Sonic Adventure 1, the limit for ODT on the PowerVR chip is 256.
You can find it online, google it. I don't even know what you are trying to say at this point. If you are asking if it supports RGB888 it does.So do you have access to the Dreamcast PowerVR technical documentation, yes or no? If yes we'll clear this discussion up quickly.
You can find it online, google it. I don't even know what you are trying to say at this point. If you are asking if it supports RGB888 it does.
Color formats
Truecolor
This table describes the color information that can be stored in textures.
ARGB1555 each color channel has 5 bits, transparency is on or off ARGB4444 each channel has 4 bits, use if you need a transparent gradient BUMP bumpmap format (stores angles for vertex displacement effects in lighting calculations), similar to a normal map YUV422 mostly used for video decoding, uncommonly used Paletted
There are also paletted texture formats which can be combined with the above color formats as well as ARGB8888.
4BPP_PAL (or 8BPP_PAL)
ARGB8888 is slow when used with filtering.
- Define an array of 2^4 = 16 (or 2^8 = 256) color values.
- Copy the array to the graphics chip, then send textures that use 4-bit (or 8-bit) indices into that array instead of 16 bit argb as pixel values.
You can set multiple palettes on the graphics chip at the same time (1024 bytes total), so they're not per-texture at all, but global.
Paletted textures are always twiddled and never strided.
typedef enum vid_pixel_mode {
PM_RGB555 = 0, /**< \brief RGB555 pixel mode (15-bit) */
PM_RGB565 = 1, /**< \brief RGB565 pixel mode (16-bit) */
PM_RGB888P = 2, /**< \brief RBG888 packed pixel mode (24-bit) */
PM_RGB0888 = 3, /**< \brief RGB0888 pixel mode (32-bit) */
PM_RGB888 = 3 /**< \brief Backwards compatibility support */
} vid_pixel_mode_t;
not most, all. this is how the console works.PS2 had to resort to 8 bit paletted texture, I'd the say the vast vast majority of it's titles.
That's not true, there are other texture modes:not most, all. this is how the console works.
you are repeating a silly myth, a palletized texture is the same texture present in some game, only stored in the ps2's vram at a low color depth, it after being applied to the game's wire, filters are applied, restoring the quality again. There are dozens of examples where the PS2's 8-bit texture surpasses that of the Dreamcast even GC, GC uses s3tc this means there is no game on the gamecube that doesn't use s3tc. The architecture of each console is made to work as it should.
0 | PSMCT32 | RGBA32, uses 32-bit per pixel. |
1 | PSMCT24 | RGB24, uses 24-bit per pixel with the upper 8 bit unused. |
2 | PSMCT16 | RGBA16 unsigned, pack two pixels in 32-bit in little endian order. |
10 | PSMCT16S | RGBA16 signed, pack two pixels in 32-bit in little endian order. |
It's not exactly true.So if my inference of R5_G5_B5_A1 as a limit is correct ... it all illustrates a technical gulf between the Dreamcast and its would be peers, no?
The Xbox version of ShenmueII removed quite a lot of transparencies for glass and shops signs.I remember AM2 saying issues over transparent effects were the hardest part of Shenmue 2 port to the Xbox.
I remember it as well (because it was surprising)I remember AM2 saying issues over transparent effects were the hardest part of Shenmue 2 port to the Xbox.
I remember it as well (because it was surprising)
Another subject:
How would you improve water effects on Dreamcast, what can be done ?
(This ripple effect on sport Jam is pretty nice but i would have liked to see it ingame)
Like I said I was amazed to read that was the major Issue AM2 with the Xbox port of Shenmue 2.The Xbox version of ShenmueII removed quite a lot of transparencies for glass and shops signs.
Maybe because of this feature :I remember AM2 saying issues over transparent effects were the hardest part of Shenmue 2 port to the Xbox.
Depending on Xbox works (and I don't know) they probably had to handle the correct order themselves in engine.
- Alpha blending: Combines colours of overlapping layers to achieve transparency effects.
- The process used for applying transparency in this system is called order-independent transparency. The algorithm automatically sorts the primitives before blending their colours, and while this slows down the rendering process, it avoids relying on the game itself to do all the sorting manually. For this reason, Dreamcast games excelled in displaying transparent objects.
- Combined with the tile-based system, order-independent transparency completely addresses previous mishaps.