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[polybius80]

The 3D Ripper mention was an example, as I said the models are decrypted from the Game files themselves.... So 1:1 what they are, also shouln't that apply to the Tekken models I posted too? Seems that the only thing bothering people IS the higher polycount on the models compared to Tekken....

I didnt specify a game I was talking generally about using game rippers, it applies to tekken, doa, vf4 and basically any game you try to rip in fact the example with marvel ultimate alliance happened at the time with the PC version but also can be reproduced with many other games

there are many games with higher polycounts than tekken or doa2 , doa2 character are very impressive and tekken looks good for many reason not just polycount it is incorrect to judge which game is better graphically based just on characters polycount, in fact if polycounts is so important it is better to use the whole scene not just one character but even then what happen with particle systems? for example travelers tale games like crash bandicoot use a particle system capable of 15 million triangles/second can we say doa2 is better graphically just because the crash character model is around 3k triangles? of course not but maybe poeple interpret that, it is probably a misintepretation of what you are trying to say in your comments but I dont see people arguing with you in bad faith unlike other people "triggered" with each comments ar posting like fanboys from that time maybe try to discuss a topic in a more civilized way

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

Half Life? The game that looks no better than an N64 game most of the time?

even at low res + software rendering it looks better than an n64 game.

 

[Alexios]

I didnt specify a game I was talking generally about using game rippers, it applies to tekken, doa, vf4 and basically any game you try to rip in fact the example with marvel ultimate alliance happened at the time with the PC version but also can be reproduced with many other games

Why bring it up furiously and repeatedly if it's not relevant to the specific games discussed and if it is relevant why don't you go prove it is rather than just reply to facts, observations and data with conspiracy theories on how other data may, in some other case, but not the one here, be misleading?

But hey maybe Tecmo also made an amazing, seamless, invisible to the eye at the Dreamcast's resolution (and in emulators in higher resolution assuming they emulate this aspect) lod system, that's another cool little tidbit about their engine and use of the Dreamcast hardware, if it's the case

Dreamcast tessellation baby!!!!11

Noone asked for an 101 in polycounting, specific dicsussions were had about specific games and you and a couple other folks come in out of the blue with random theories about polycounting or subjective beauty as replies to objective data comparisons that have already been discussed anyway as known ugly games with high polycounts were shown here before when simply speaking about the polygon pushing capabilities of this or that system and nobody said you have to subjectively prefer the aesthetics of this or that game or asset if you prefer another, whether it is or isn't of lower spec...

tekken looks good for many reason not just polycount it is incorrect to judge which game is better graphically based just on characters polycount.

Noone did that, more than character polycounts things like lighting, levels, physics and loading were discussed about all the games, but sure, keep making theoretical observations that don't actually apply here like a triggered little fanboy that can't discuss in a civil manner as it accuses others

Dude didn't even tell anyone not to prefer Soulcalibur as a game, art style or whatever.

He was just making an observation on which game appears to push the Dreamcast more. It's not like it's considered to have a crude art style or any other deficiency that in comparison brings it way down so in his opinion it's underrated compared to Soulcalibur's constant praise (over how it shows the Dreamcast and its power off) despite being very modest technically even if polished and amazing, where DOA2 shows off what a longer dev time and a from the ground up game could do and also technically and aesthetically compares well vs many fighting games of the era. Deal with it.

​

Even if you prefer other graphics, comparing polycounts and other elements shows that the Dreamcast could pull off an approximation of that look by importing those exact assets (if not allowing for improvements to them) and adjusting other elements like materials and lighting to match. Simple.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Re4 is a very advanced game beyond the capabilities of the Dreamcast.
10,000 polygon main characters, lighting effects, some bump mapping, high poly npcs and solid 30fps.

However, there are many inconsistencies in it when compared to games of the same scope, re4 is perhaps the jaggiest game I've seen on GC to its low resolution and lack of AA,16-bit color dithering makes it look faded, models are beautiful but the shadows are circles, textures at the same stage fluctuate between great and horrible, which pleases fans but in a technical analysis, having this type of oscillation is a downside. God of War 2 for instance all main characters and npcs they all have shadows, a 60fps game.
.

 

[TNT Sheep]

That you can't actually play at all, whether 60fps single player or 30fps in split screen with friends. Believe me when I say the PS2 version of target 1&2 is infinitely better, because it is a faithful copy of the cube version with all "essential" features like fog, and would still be the case if comparing 1080p120 to 576p30

After specifically looking at Xbox footage of monkey target I can see what you mean regarding depth perception, which does mean at least mechanically the PS2 version is better for monkey target.

Whether the framerate is really equal during 4-player multiplayer is anyone's guess without comparative footage. If the fog is already toned down compared to the PS2 I have no real reason to believe the framerate to tank that much in comparison, but it would be an interesting edge case.

Regardless, it still leaves the rest of the game, in which case the better framerate is kind of essential to the gameplay, as depth perception seems to be less of an issue. As such I don't think I agree on the Xbox being the worst version by default based on the footage I have seen. Of course you are free to disagree.

Getting back to the topic, one game on Dreamcast that impressed me a lot was the upgraded port of Rayman 2. It is still arguably the best version with more detailed textures than even the PC version. Compared to the N64 version it's a huge jump.

 

[polybius80]

Why bring it up repeatedly if it's not actually relevant to the specific games that were being discussed and if it is relevant why don't you go prove it is rather than just reply to facts, observations and data with conspiracy theories on how the data may, in some other case, not this here, be misleading?

if you take the time to read the comment I was quoting you will see there was the idea that this considerations when ripping 3d models were only applied to Doa2 ant not tekken to which I responded "I wasnt talking about a specific" as in "they apply to tekken too" in fact i literally wrote "it applies to tekken, doa, vf4 and basically any game you try to rip" you even quoted that

keep making theoretical observations that don't actually apply here

I am not

like a triggered little fanboy that can't discuss in a civil manner as it accuses others

you literally used a "triggered" emote in my comment in fact you have been putting triggered and laugh emotes to every comment you dont like in this thread, that is a very childish behavior

He was just making an observation on which game appears to push the Dreamcast more.

I wasn't reprimanding him or anything like that, he made an observation questioning the appreciation of other people for one game over the other and I told him my view on why is that, I never said he was wrong or that he cannot like something over another thing just that there are more things than triangle to compare the tech of a game and some people look for some things to declare one game looking better than other

 

[SomeGit]

After specifically looking at Xbox footage of monkey target I can see what you mean regarding depth perception, which does mean at least mechanically the PS2 version is better for monkey target.

Whether the framerate is really equal during 4-player multiplayer is anyone's guess without comparative footage. If the fog is already toned down compared to the PS2 I have no real reason to believe the framerate to tank that much in comparison, but it would be an interesting edge case.

Regardless, it still leaves the rest of the game, in which case the better framerate is kind of essential to the gameplay, as depth perception seems to be less of an issue. As such I don't think I agree on the Xbox being the worst version by default based on the footage I have seen. Of course you are free to disagree.

I don't want to drag this discussion too much since it's off topic, but I was waiting for his example but it's clear he is not gonna reply, the Gamecube water shader, is missing in both the Xbox and the PS2 version. Both instead include a transparent animated texture, so slight that's actually very hard to see especially on compressed YT videos. I took screenshots of both versions, again they are hard to see but focus on the bottom right:

Spoiler: PS2 Monkey Target

Spoiler: Xbox Monkey Target

The PS2 might have a slight visibility edge, but only because like most PS2 game it lacks mipmapping so you get to see the shimmering on distance, but it's really extremely slight and it would be idiotic to claim it's 3 times the fillrate or whatever crap he was trying to pull. And no, the PS2 does not have an edge on draw distance and the fog is actually denser on Xbox. This isn't even starting the other downgrades that the PS2 version has above resolution and framerate. Lost of stages, like Ring Bridges, have their backgrounds simplified over the Xbox version:

Spoiler: PS2 Ring Bridges

Spoiler: Xbox Ring Bridges

And others, like Hitter (which I can't show because I don't have it unlocked, but you can find it online), have their reflections striped out of the PS2 version, specualar highlights are removed all over the place, in general textures are low res and less colorful, etc. etc. The game performs and looks worse on PS2, head and shoulders, his entire posts in the last page should just hit the trash as fast as possible, especially the dumb dumb parts about FP32 and the Xbox versions giving seizures. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Sorry for the derailing, I won't post about Monkey Balls ever again but when he replied to you saying you were being disingenous, I just had to make clear that yes, the PS2 version sucks balls.

Late Edit: Oh and the 4 player split screen is also 60 on Xbox.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I don't know why mentioning Xbox in this conversation, this console has twice the power of the PS2.

 

[PaintTinJr]

After specifically looking at Xbox footage of monkey target I can see what you mean regarding depth perception, which does mean at least mechanically the PS2 version is better for monkey target.

Whether the framerate is really equal during 4-player multiplayer is anyone's guess without comparative footage. If the fog is already toned down compared to the PS2 I have no real reason to believe the framerate to tank that much in comparison, but it would be an interesting edge case.

Regardless, it still leaves the rest of the game, in which case the better framerate is kind of essential to the gameplay, as depth perception seems to be less of an issue. As such I don't think I agree on the Xbox being the worst version by default based on the footage I have seen. Of course you are free to disagree.

Getting back to the topic, one game on Dreamcast that impressed me a lot was the upgraded port of Rayman 2. It is still arguably the best version with more detailed textures than even the PC version. Compared to the N64 version it's a huge jump.

It isn't dialled back fog, the Xbox has no zbuffer and doesn't have conventional fog which at the time was either cheapest linear fog or exponent fog with the value modifying the colour buffer derived from the zbuffer value at each fragment that passes the depth test on the GPU, meaning it doubles the overdraw fillrate waste too. The irony is that the Xbox uses a cheap bandwidth w-buffer hidden surface removal technique which was chosen with the belief of improving large scene rendering by distributing depth precision in a coarse linear (non-exponent zbuffer) way, and yet it had the exact opposite result,

In Xbox games the depth cueing is largely done in the baked lighting or shader fx, which unfortunately for Monkey target on Xbox is a big problem because there is no skybox, just a large sprite/texture clamped at the back of the view frustum with blank space in between, and the ocean. But again, the Xbox doesn't provide the high quality ocean shader of the Cube and PS2 version, and just uses a blue transparent quad instead IIRC above the ocean floor texture, meaning there is no full scene geometry - like walls in an FPS with baked indirect lighting - to provide depth cues to the gamer. Given how sparse the fx are on the Xbox, and how little geometry is being rendered the whole thing could be depth cued on the CPU like a PS1/Dreamcast game on Xbox. Whereas on the Cube and PS2 the zbuffer and depth testing is needed throughout for the ocean shader and fogging of the targets' geometry. Disabling GPU depth testing on a PS2 or Cube more than doubles T&L polygon throughput IIRC from the spec sheets and that's not accounting for the double overdraw of enabling fog, and the cost of the linear or exponent maths equation per fragment for fogging.

And yes, me and my friends did actually try all these versions at the end of the 360 life - we bought one just for trying local party games - in BC mode and the framerate in 4 player split on Xbox doesn't feel like 60fps, and feels the same across all 3 versions in Monkey target 2.

 

[SomeGit]

It isn't dialled back fog, the Xbox has no zbuffer

What?! NV2A supports zbuffer, heck it even supports the GF4's lossless z-buffer compression. And SMBD specifically uses a 24-bit zbuffer, like the PS2 version.
High quality water shader on PS2?
What are you drinking?

 

[Fat Frog]

Seems that the only thing bothering people IS the higher polycount on the models compared to Tekken....

I don't blame them, they probably had too much expectations ("the 66 million polygons console")

MY PS2 WAS SUPPOSED TO RUN 20 TIMES MORE POLYGONS THAN THIS FUCKING DREAMCRAP ! IT HAS TO BE A LIE !

To be fair, maybe it's truly a conspiracy from Sega and its fanboys:

"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

Here's one low-poly effort from pre-production [all of this was thrown out], greybox experiments from Uncharted 4 Scottland stages by @thegreatbluebit: [IMO this looks like a shippable art for a modern indie game :D ]

forum.beyond3d.com

Holy shit !
Shenmue 2 = 1,2 million polygons
Yakuza = 1,07 million polygons

1) Sega pollutes the PS2 with Dreamcast inferior ports in order to make consumers doubt of its unlimited power.
2) Once the PS2 finally delivers, Sega humiliates the console again through a superior Monkey Ball Deluxe on Xbox (twice the framerate )
3) In 2005, after 5 years on the market, the PS2 barely reaches Shenmue 2's polycount with Yakuza.

Sega really hates you, guys. You and your tiny p...olycount

 

[PaintTinJr]

What?! NV2A supports zbuffer, heck it even supports the GF4's lossless z-buffer compression. And SMBD specifically uses a 24-bit zbuffer, like the PS2 version.
High quality water shader on PS2?
What are you drinking?

And many Nvidia card drivers have supported features that fallback to software or impact performance while accelerated so badly they aren't useable.

The xbox was designed to use a w-buffer as was the boast and literature and sdk 20years ago, and a w-buffer is incompatible with accelerated fog because of the discrete distribution of depth precision for most of the buffer.

FYI the PS2 uses a 32bit depth buffer, and had a wider FOV because of it, so the idea they were all the same, and the xbox used a 24bit zbuffer just isn't consistent with how it renders in reality. And yes it is a high quality shader compared to nothing in the Xbox version, and because it is an identical shader algorithm to the original Cube version of the shader.

Many of the games on PC that Xbox excelled at rendering were still using engines from before the 3dfx and ATI 3D accelerators took the market by storm with hardware T&L. zbuffer and fog, and so were still based on clever CPU hidden surface removal techniques as seen in Quake1, or the likes of Colin McRae rally or TOCA that began on PS1. and as the PS1 certainly didn't have a zbuffer it is safe to say the games weren't reliant on hardware having one.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I don't want to drag this discussion too much since it's off topic, but I was waiting for his example but it's clear he is not gonna reply, the Gamecube water shader, is missing in both the Xbox and the PS2 version. Both instead include a transparent animated texture, so slight that's actually very hard to see especially on compressed YT videos. I took screenshots of both versions, again they are hard to see but focus on the bottom right:

Spoiler: PS2 Monkey Target

Spoiler: Xbox Monkey Target

The PS2 might have a slight visibility edge, but only because like most PS2 game it lacks mipmapping so you get to see the shimmering on distance, but it's really extremely slight and it would be idiotic to claim it's 3 times the fillrate or whatever crap he was trying to pull. And no, the PS2 does not have an edge on draw distance and the fog is actually denser on Xbox. This isn't even starting the other downgrades that the PS2 version has above resolution and framerate. Lost of stages, like Ring Bridges, have their backgrounds simplified over the Xbox version:

Spoiler: PS2 Ring Bridges

Spoiler: Xbox Ring Bridges

And others, like Hitter (which I can't show because I don't have it unlocked, but you can find it online), have their reflections striped out of the PS2 version, specualar highlights are removed all over the place, in general textures are low res and less colorful, etc. etc. The game performs and looks worse on PS2, head and shoulders, his entire posts in the last page should just hit the trash as fast as possible, especially the dumb dumb parts about FP32 and the Xbox versions giving seizures. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Sorry for the derailing, I won't post about Monkey Balls ever again but when he replied to you saying you were being disingenous, I just had to make clear that yes, the PS2 version sucks balls.

Late Edit: Oh and the 4 player split screen is also 60 on Xbox.

If that isn't patched Series S/X back compatibility and you can actually take a screenshot flying in 4 player split monkey target 2 (not Monkey Target 1 as shown on the ramp) of Deluxe I'll be interested. Because that would suggest what I played on B/C 360 15years ago wasn't emulated correctly

 

[Fat Frog]

If that isn't patched Series S/X back compatibility and you can actually take a screenshot flying in 4 player split monkey target 2 (not Monkey Target 1 as shown on the ramp) of Deluxe I'll be interested. Because that would suggest what I played on B/C 360 15years ago wasn't emulated correctly

(50 pages later)
It's okay, Tony. You don't have to do this... It's just another PS2 inferior. It's okay...

 

[SomeGit]

And many Nvidia card drivers have supported features that fallback to software or impact performance while accelerated so badly they aren't useable.

It's not software, the NV2A has hardware zbuffer support and hardware zbuffer compression.

FYI the PS2 uses a 32bit depth buffer, and had a wider FOV because of it, so the idea they were all the same, and the xbox used a 24bit zbuffer just isn't consistent with how it renders in reality. And yes it is a high quality shader compared to nothing in the Xbox version, and because it is an identical shader algorithm to the original Cube version of the shader.

They have the same FOV! You can compare using the initial screens on the Monkey Target.

The nothing? It renders the same as the Xbox version, just a big transparent surface, there is no high quality shader on PS2. And it's nothing like the original gamecube shader:




And no, again both use a 24bit zbuffer. 32bit zbuffer was rare on PS2 because it would take too much VRAM.

Many of the games on PC that Xbox excelled at rendering were still using engines from before the 3dfx and ATI 3D accelerators took the market by storm with hardware T&L. zbuffer and fog, and so were still based on clever CPU hidden surface removal techniques as seen in Quake1, or the likes of Colin McRae rally or TOCA that began on PS1. and as the PS1 certainly didn't have a zbuffer it is safe to say the games weren't reliant on hardware having one.

idTech, Unreal and Renderware are PS1 engines? That's a new one. But Nvidia GPUs have zbuffer since the Riva 128 (16-bit) and Riva TNT (24-bit).

If that isn't patched Series S/X back compatibility and you can actually take a screenshot flying in 4 player split monkey target 2 (not Monkey Target 1 as shown on the ramp) of Deluxe I'll be interested. Because that would suggest what I played on B/C 360 15years ago wasn't emulated correctly

SMBD isn't backwards compatible, and the screenshots are from Monkey Target 2 you can cross reference it with the PS2 video I posted above.
I have no idea how the game performs on 360, but 360 is infamous for not being accurate.

 

[PaintTinJr]

It's not software dude, the NV2A has hardware zbuffer support and hardware zbuffer compression. What are you talking about?!



What wider FOV?!? They have the same FOV!
The nothing? It renders the same as the Xbox version, just a big transparent surface, there is no high quality shader on PS2. And it's nothing like the original gamecube shader:




And no, again both use a 24bit zbuffer, you can check it out on any competent emulator. 32bit zbuffer was rare on PS2 because it would take too much VRAM.



idTech, Unreal and Renderware are PS1 engines? That's a new one. But Nvidia GPUs have zbuffer since the Riva 128 (16-bit) and Riva TNT (24-bit).



SMBD isn't backwards compatible, and the screenshots are from Monkey Target 2 you can cross reference it with the PS2 video I posted above.
I have no idea how the game performs on 360, but 360 is infamous for not being accurate.

This is a screen grab from the Ps2 emulator , as I don't have the console plugged up still, and despite it being slighty unfair giving the image an overly clean look and it not capturing the aspect rationm you can clearly see the draw distance is bigger than if I did the same capture with Dolphin/cube version and the frustum configuration is different showing more with a wider FOV,

 

[SomeGit]

This is a screen grab from the Ps2 emulator , as I don't have the console plugged up still, and despite it being slighty unfair giving the image an overly clean look and it not capturing the aspect rationm you can clearly see the draw distance is bigger than if I did the same capture with Dolphin/cube version and the frustum configuration is different showing more with a wider FOV,

Comparing to this video also on an emulator
I’m not seeing a wider FOV, nor really a longer draw distance.

It’s possible, it’s not side by side, but I can’t see it.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Comparing to this video also on an emulator
I’m not seeing a wider FOV, nor really a longer draw distance.

It’s possible, it’s not side by side, but I can’t see it.

Well for a start the preview image on the video is of round 3 in monkey target 1, so that isn't like for like, any way.

If I get a chance tomorrow I'll capture it on Dolphin too from the same or very similar wide flat approach.

 

[SomeGit]

Well for a start the preview image on the video is of round 3 in monkey target 1, so that isn't like for like, any way.

If I get a chance tomorrow I'll capture it on Dolphin too from the same or very similar wide flat approach.

I copied the wrong video, I've already edited the correct one.

 

[The Stig]

I dont know exactly if it was particularly powerful but it benefitted from having essentially a beefed up arcade board so games could be directly ported at high FPS and have nothing removed.

It gave demo booths that absolute "WOW" factor.

When the DC came out I was15. It blew me away like no other. Soul calibur in full flight was something else! Same with ferrari 355 challenge and others.

I know neo geo absolutely had that factor but I was never able to get near one. I also didnt have any rich friends

 

[SomeGit]

To add something to the topic other than Monkey Balls before I go to bed, found this tweet chain interesting:

 

[Fat Frog]

To add something to the topic other than Monkey Balls before I go to bed, found this tweet chain interesting:

Also
(Urban Chaos)

Some people spread bullshit for so many years...
Now they must face reality:

 

[Panajev2001a]

To add something to the topic other than Monkey Balls before I go to bed, found this tweet chain interesting:

Looks like a “Depend on who you ask” and devs are not immune to some warring too. Forsyth has always been very negative on Sony products overall, not sure how much time he actually had on PS2 on titles either, but . Even the two GTA devs disagree: one is saying that they had to wait for PS2 as SC would not have handled the game they wanted to make and the other was a bit more “well, depends on what you want it to be”.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I still can't believe how good Phantasy Star Online looks. Absolutely gorgeous graphics and way ahead of its time.

 

[Fat Frog]

bUt tHiS pRogramMer hates sONy

 

[Esppiral]

bUt tHiS pRogramMer hates sONy

There is always an excuse... I do think it wouldn't look as the PS2 version though, GTA3 pushes a lot of polys and effects on screen and run like shit on PS2 on Dreamcast it would have run worst, yes folks calm down the PS2 is more powerful than the Dreamcast no one is denying that, is just that doa2 characters are almost twice the polycount of those of Tekken you can still sleep in peace at night, your PS2 pushes way beyond what the Dreamcast can.

 

[Panajev2001a]

There is always an excuse... I do think it wouldn't look as the PS2 version though, GTA3 pushes a lot of polys and effects on screen and run like shit on PS2 on Dreamcast it would have run worst, yes folks calm down the PS2 is more powerful than the Dreamcast no one is denying that, is just that doa2 characters are almost twice the polycount of those of Tekken you can still sleep in peace at night, your PS2 pushes way beyond what the Dreamcast can.

Always an excuse… but it was correct, just… something something .

 

[Fat Frog]

Re4 is a very advanced game beyond the capabilities of the Dreamcast.
10,000 polygon main characters, lighting effects, some bump mapping, high poly npcs and solid 30fps.

However, there are many inconsistencies in it when compared to games of the same scope, re4 is perhaps the jaggiest game I've seen on GC to its low resolution and lack of AA,16-bit color dithering makes it look faded, models are beautiful but the shadows are circles, textures at the same stage fluctuate between great and horrible, which pleases fans but in a technical analysis, having this type of oscillation is a downside. God of War 2 for instance all main characters and npcs they all have shadows, a 60fps game.
.

Who cares ? The Dreamcast(98)would have been 7 years old in 2005...(With a Dreamcast 2 circa 2003-04).

It's okay if RE4 on PS2 was a massive downgrade.Gamecube is a 2001 console...

More powerful than a 2000 console.
It's gonna be ok

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Is there a fighter on the PS2 that can justify twice the price over DOA2.

Let me understand.
for example what separates 5th gen fighting games from 6th gen fighting games? In your opinion describe to us.
What does XB's DOA3 do that DC's DOA2 doesn't in your opinion?
After answering these two, I will ask you the third

 

[Trunx81]

You can emulate Dreamcast on PS Vita, but not Game Cube or Xbox. Checkmate, guys

/s

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

yes folks calm down the PS2 is more powerful than the Dreamcast no one is denying that, is just that doa2 characters are almost twice the polycount of those of Tekken

I'm still trying to understand what your point, I mean doa2 is also present on the ps2 in an improved version.
Tekken Tag as far as I remember no one has extracted all the characters. Julia has 7.700 maybe there is one with 8,000 In doa2 Gen Fu has less than 7.000, the majority has 8.400 and Helena has 9.600 the difference (7,7 vs 9,7) is not 2x . Tekken 4 they say that the characters have a similar polygonal count to SC (3.000) so even tekken tag has twice but I don't think you can compare a next gen game like tekken 4 with doa2 the difference is visible.

 

[Esppiral]

I'm still trying to understand what your point, I mean doa2 is also present on the ps2 in an improved version.
Tekken Tag as far as I remember no one has extracted all the characters. Julia has 7.700 maybe there is one with 8,000 In doa2 Gen Fu has less than 7.000, the majority has 8.400 and Helena has 9.600 the difference (7,7 vs 9,7) is not 2x . Tekken 4 they say that the characters have a similar polygonal count to SC (3.000) so even tekken tag has twice but I don't think you can compare a next gen game like tekken 4 with doa2 the difference is visible.

They point was that some people was calling it a N64 pro hence the comparison with a PS2 fighter, to demonstrate that it belongs to the same gen as the PS2 nothing else, yet people has take it like if I was implying that is more powerful that the PS2 and got triggered....

Edit the models are from Tekken 5 not TT

 

[Esppiral]

You can emulate Dreamcast on PS Vita, but not Game Cube or Xbox. Checkmate, guys

/s

With a ton of hacks and under locking the virtual CPU to achieve 30 ISH FPS on games that ran at 60 on the Dreamcast, great achievement but tells you nothing, also the vita is way more powerful than the DC, don't get the point.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I copied the wrong video, I've already edited the correct one.

I couldn't get ones in flight that were similar enough, but these two comparative shots from stage 1 on the ramp of monkey target 2 show the difference in the depth and subsequent different FOV feel - that is far more pronounced at native rest on a TV than using the emulators with the game set to 60hz and 16:9 aspect in game, emulators using 4x native (GC 778x448 and PS2 778x336 IIRC)and then having to resize to full hd to preserve the capture quality of Dolphin and to have a real viewport as seen on a TV.
From the two labelled images you can see the first coloured arrows show where the depth cueing fog starts to be perceived as fog, rather than just depth cueing, and yellow arrows show where the fog value is saturating to 1.0f, meaning depth precision from the equation and the z-value has run out, giving indication of the frustum near and far plane ratio and positions.

From the comparative images and annotations IMO it does indicate the draw distance is similar and the ratios are similar, but the precision of the fog looks like the cube might even use a 16bit depth buffer and linear fog equation, and the Ps2 looks like it uses an exponent fog equation with a 32bit depth buffer, and possibly even a marginally nearer near clip plane.
obviously in relation to the Dreamcast, monkey target would have needed a frustum cascade renderer AFAIK and wouldn't have worked with fog because of that. From what I've read the Dreamcast solution pre-sorted polygons to eliminate much of the zbuffer use and according to what I read on here some time back, it only had a very low precision zbuffer of 4bit or 8bit IIRC.

Even in this analysis link the zbuffer modes or the Dreamcasts NEC PowerVR2 aren't listed from me skim reading,

Dreamcast Architecture | A Practical Analysis

An in-depth analysis that explains how this console works internally

www.copetti.org

 

[RoboFu]

Dreamcast had top tier image quality. Much better than the other three. It did have a smaller amount of ram but IMO it still could compete if things would have been different. There wasn't a DF to feed A-hole fanboys back then.

 

[nkarafo]

Yeah, I don't think anything on PC was touching Dreamcast in '98 or even '99. There was nothing on the market in terms of combined visuals, tech, and scope that was as much a total package as Sonic Adventure was, for example. Especially considering that game was only two years after Super Mario 64, and released the same year as OoT and Banjo-Kazooie.

Depends on the genre. FPS games were always big on PCs for instance and they always looked and performed better there.

 

[SomeGit]

I couldn't get ones in flight that were similar enough, but these two comparative shots from stage 1 on the ramp of monkey target 2 show the difference in the depth and subsequent different FOV feel - that is far more pronounced at native rest on a TV than using the emulators with the game set to 60hz and 16:9 aspect in game, emulators using 4x native (GC 778x448 and PS2 778x336 IIRC)and then having to resize to full hd to preserve the capture quality of Dolphin and to have a real viewport as seen on a TV.
From the two labelled images you can see the first coloured arrows show where the depth cueing fog starts to be perceived as fog, rather than just depth cueing, and yellow arrows show where the fog value is saturating to 1.0f, meaning depth precision from the equation and the z-value has run out, giving indication of the frustum near and far plane ratio and positions.

From the comparative images and annotations IMO it does indicate the draw distance is similar and the ratios are similar, but the precision of the fog looks like the cube might even use a 16bit depth buffer and linear fog equation, and the Ps2 looks like it uses an exponent fog equation with a 32bit depth buffer, and possibly even a marginally nearer near clip plane.
obviously in relation to the Dreamcast, monkey target would have needed a frustum cascade renderer AFAIK and wouldn't have worked with fog because of that. From what I've read the Dreamcast solution pre-sorted polygons to eliminate much of the zbuffer use and according to what I read on here some time back, it only had a very low precision zbuffer of 4bit or 8bit IIRC.

Even in this analysis link the zbuffer modes or the Dreamcasts NEC PowerVR2 aren't listed from me skim reading,

Dreamcast Architecture | A Practical Analysis

An in-depth analysis that explains how this console works internally

www.copetti.org

I don't think your explanation matches the screenshots, if it was running out of depth and saturating to 1.0f even behind the fog it would have been uniform in its density, yet you can clearly see variations in it. It's even worse on the video above, if you move the camera angle to the sides the distant fog variation becomes even more noticible.
Besides it just looks bad on PS2, I don't think Amusement Visions meant to use almost zero fog near the player like the PS2 screenshot so I doubt buffer density even came into question, it just seems like an issue with a quick and dirty port from the original SMB2. Maybe it is a 16bit vs 24bit buffer issue, but the effect on PS2 just seems wrong.
I have no idea what the Dreamcast and Gamecube depth buffer modes are, so I can't comment on that. Sega Retro lists it as 32-bit zbuffer for Dreamcast but I don't think that's right.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I don't think your explanation matches the screenshots, if it was running out of depth and saturating to 1.0f even behind the fog it would have been uniform in its density, yet you can clearly see variations in it. It's even worse on the video above, if you move the camera angle to the sides the distant fog variation becomes even more noticible.
Besides it just looks bad on PS2, I don't think Amusement Visions meant to use almost zero fog near the player like the PS2 screenshot so I doubt buffer density even came into question, it just seems like an issue with a quick and dirty port from the original SMB2. Maybe it is a 16bit vs 24bit buffer issue, but the effect on PS2 just seems wrong.
I have no idea what the Dreamcast and Gamecube depth buffer modes are, so I can't comment on that. Sega Retro lists it as 32-bit zbuffer for Dreamcast but I don't think that's right.

No, sadly the complexity of the maths behind the basics of T&L aren't a small piece of learning for the uninitiated, so trust when I say that how a zbuffers precision is disproportionately used at the near plane of the viewing frustum is true, and mores so with less precision and a bigger distnace between near and far planes. When perspectively projecting all the 3d objects into a 2d dimensional plane (the viewport) the values aren'tuniform until complete saturation -where you need geometry to generate fragments to generate those saturated 1.0f fog values - and the variations in side ways and up down axis are because the projection isn't linear as the view frustum isn't a box, it is a cut nose pyramid on its side, meaning the near plan (cut nose) is significantly smaller than the base (the far plane).

Here's Microsoft's blurb about zbuffer precision in their DirectX w-buffer API documentation

W-Buffering - Windows drivers

W-Buffering

web.archive.org

"and stores it directly into the z-buffer. Due to the mathematics involved, this perspective-correct z is not distributed evenly within the z-buffer range. Using a far/near ratio of 100 results in 90 percent of the depth buffer range being used on the first 10 percent of the scene depth range. While this may be sufficient for tools, typical applications for entertainment or visual simulations with exterior scenes require far/near ratios of 1000 to 1 or 10000 to 1. At a ration of 1000 to 1, 98 percent of the range is used on the first two percent of the depth. This can cause hidden surface artifacts in distant objects, especially when using 16-bit depth buffers."

I agree that the cube version in Dolphin looks far superior to the PCSX2 1.4 I used - both using DirectX11 - and even using component on native hardware the cube version with the shader looking better because it was design around the frustum setup by AM2, rather than a port using RenderWare by tt games on ps2, does make it look better, along with the little extra of the AIAI monkey head in the top left on cube being real geometry instead of a sprite/texture in the PS2 version. But the PS2 version is doing more work with the zbuffer and fog, and I even think it might have a subtle projected shadow on the ramp from the ball too, but I couldn't make out for sure as a difference in these 4x native, 4x MSAA emu renders.

 

[SomeGit]

No, sadly the complexity of the maths behind the basics of T&L aren't a small piece of learning for the uninitiated, so trust when I say that how a zbuffers precision is disproportionately used at the near plane of the viewing frustum is true, and mores so with less precision and a bigger distnace between near and far planes. When perspectively projecting all the 3d objects into a 2d dimensional plane (the viewport) the values aren'tuniform until complete saturation -where you need geometry to generate fragments to generate those saturated 1.0f fog values - and the variations in side ways and up down axis are because the projection isn't linear as the view frustum isn't a box, it is a cut nose pyramid on its side, meaning the near plan (cut nose) is significantly smaller than the base (the far plane).

Right, but if you are changing the viewport and the variation persists then it can't be a depth buffer precision issue, otherwise that variation would be directly related to the viewport.
Sorry, but I don't see it, maybe the PS2 is doing more but nothing in this tells me that.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Right, but if you are changing the viewport and the variation persists then it can't be a depth buffer precision issue, otherwise that variation would be directly related to the viewport.
Sorry, but I don't see it, maybe the PS2 is doing more but nothing in this tells me that.

No, sadly you're just lacking the prerequisite knowledge and not appreciating the phenomena of the primitive fragmentation producing zbuffer values that can feed a fog equation and produce a quite organic looking effect like the real thing.

AM2 wanted fog close to the PS2 version setup, but it was a second party game as part of the triforce arrangement they had with Sega IIRC, and so their choice was not do the game mode, reduce the render burden to cascade the frustum in two passes, or do the fog the way they did it, which isn't perfect for showing off the geometry at distance as well as the would like, but is perfect in the foreground and still gives great depth perception by cueing the geometry that is essential for the gameplay and still provides the distance fog to blend out the world seams that break the visual illusion.

 

[SomeGit]

No, sadly you're just lacking the prerequisite knowledge and not appreciating the phenomena of the primitive fragmentation producing zbuffer values that can feed a fog equation and produce a quite organic looking effect like the real thing.

AM2 wanted fog close to the PS2 version setup, but it was a second party game as part of the triforce arrangement they had with Sega IIRC, and so their choice was not do the game mode, reduce the render burden to cascade the frustum in two passes, or do the fog the way they did it, which isn't perfect for showing off the geometry at distance as well as the would like, but is perfect in the foreground and still gives great depth perception by cueing the geometry that is essential for the gameplay and still provides the distance fog to blend out the world seams that break the visual illusion.

This is beyond ridiculous now, yes AV wanted the game to look like absolute crap but the Triforce and Naomi hardware didn't allow it.
Only on PS2 via proxy from another developer could they accomplish the terrible empty visuals while also halving the framerate. Sorry I'm done this is pointless.

 

[PaintTinJr]

This is beyond ridiculous now, yes AV wanted the game to look like absolute crap but the Triforce and Naomi hardware didn't allow it.
Only on PS2 via proxy from another developer could they accomplish the terrible empty visuals while also halving the framerate. Sorry I'm done this is pointless.

What a strawman response, to claim I'm saying one of my all time favourite games looks like crap on one of my favourite pieces of hardware., oh boy...

If you've actually been reading my comments throughout you'd know that I hold the cube versions as the definitive versions and have played them since launch, but this issue of fog accuracy and draw distance accuracy isn't about that.

Tt games porting to the PS2 could have made the depth and fog identical to the cube, and only because there was no performance difference on PS2 hardware to use more precision did they use more and improve the fog at a technical level. It is the same with AMD using FP16 and Nvidia using FP32 instead, because their hardware gained nothing from using FP16 vs FP32, so they use the full precision instead, and get more accurate results.

Every developer will use more precision when available and use the precision to maximise the quality of the phenomenon they are mimicking/modelling if there is no performance cost for doing so.

 

[SomeGit]

If you actually read my comments throughout you see that I didn’t claim that you said the GC version was crap.

The PS2 version looks like crap, if that was AVs goal then I guess the Gamecube saved the day. If TT wanted absolute precision they would have used 32 bit precision on SMBD, which they don’t because they use 24bit.

It’s really ironic, last page you were saying that the Xbox version was a non-starter because of the lack of fog and praising the PS2 for matching the VFX of the GC version but now you are saying that no-no the lack of fog near the player is AVs true vision for the game. I harden my stance you really are the least delusional PS2 fanboy.

 

[PaintTinJr]

If you actually read my comments throughout you see that I didn’t claim that you said the GC version was crap.

The PS2 version looks like crap, if that was AVs goal then I guess the Gamecube saved the day.

If TT wanted absolute precision they would have used 32 bit precision on SMBD, which they don’t because they use 24bit.

It does look rough in places, as I said from the start, but it isn't a piece of art to hang on a wall, but a fast action skill game, that is a faithful copy of Cube version with all the "essential" features to make it playable, which was the problem I had with the 360 version having no fog, and no water shaders, and being unplayable. Sadly I don't have the hardware or game to capture the same screenshot from an Xbox of level 1 at the top of the ramp on Monkey target 2 to complete that discussion for how the OG xbox actually compared. If you have it, feel free to capture and upload to show its superiority. Maybe it was the definitive version on OG Xbox that I never got to experience.

And coming full circle to the main topic, the Dreamcast was very capable but not in the way of the graphics paradigm shift of that gen. The Ps2 and cube could both render randomly complex geometric scenes and do hidden surface removal in real-time along with complex shaders/lighting and texture mapping with complex physics, AI, animation and inverse kinematics without the need of many techniques that the previous gen used to bridge the gap between their one foot in 2D consoles, and early start as a 3D console. The Dreamcast clearly couldn't do random complexity hidden surface removal, and even the Xbox had issue with doing it with complex shaders as anyone that played MGS2 on OG Xbox could attest to after all the MG mech battle slowdown with particle fx from the missiles.

 

[SomeGit]

All essential features… you know except the actual water shaders from the Cube, specular highlights, lack of normal maps, lower resolution textures, the awful looking fog and the lack reflections and even backgrounds in some stages. All of that at half the framerate and lower resolution, brilliant what a forward looking console.

 

[Fat Frog]

Esppiral
Give us details about your last video, please.

I would be delighted to see the Ninja Gaiden prototype for the Dreamcast

 

[Esppiral]

Esppiral
Give us details about your last video, please.

I would be delighted to see the Ninja Gaiden prototype for the Dreamcast

I do see reflective surfaces

In all seriousness I am trying different techniques that were rarely if ever used on the Dreamcast, like fur shading for fur or grass.

I am trying to improve the game graphics by adding more geometry, effects and new stages, improving the textures etc, but I guess you already know

 

[cireza]

You can emulate Dreamcast on PS Vita, but not Game Cube or Xbox. Checkmate, guys

/s

Are you even aware that Vita uses a PowerVR GPU, which was also the case of the Dreamcast ? Might help a little, just saying...

 

[Fat Frog]

I do see reflective surfaces

In all seriousness I am trying different techniques that were rarely if ever used on the Dreamcast, like fur shading for fur or grass.

I am trying to improve the game graphics by adding more geometry, effects and new stages, improving the textures etc, but I guess you already know

I you could add a simplified version of Soulcalibur 3 egypt stage, you would be my hero

 

[Esppiral]

If there is a way to acces the stage model I would try.