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Was the Dreamcast actually powerful at launch? Or the beneficiary of no competition?

Was the Dreamcast a powerhouse at launch?

  • No

    Votes: 117 11.2%
  • Yes

    Votes: 930 88.8%

  • Total voters
    1,047

Fat Frog

I advertised for Google Stadia
Yeah it was in the Next Level interview and I never would have thought the Xbox would have major issues with DC transparency effects.

Didnt see many great weather effects on the DC other than in D2 and the amazing (for the time ) heat haze effect in Maken X wheb the jet plane takes off
Yeah, I was impressed by Shenmue but the water effetcs were pretty 90's.(Not a surprise since the project even started on Saturn 😁).

I would love to see old Dreamcast classics remastered with modern tools, effects.🤪
 

PaintTinJr

Member
That's not true, there are other texture modes:

0PSMCT32RGBA32, uses 32-bit per pixel.
1PSMCT24RGB24, uses 24-bit per pixel with the upper 8 bit unused.
2PSMCT16RGBA16 unsigned, pack two pixels in 32-bit in little endian order.
10PSMCT16SRGBA16 signed, pack two pixels in 32-bit in little endian order.

They are seldomly used though. I don't know about the GC though. There are also dozen of examples of the opposite depends on the texture, I'm not saying that 8-bit PT is inherently inferior, just that this:


It's not exactly true.
Why do none of the examples initialise the framebuffer format as RGB_888, then?

The blended result ends up as RGB565 on all Dreamcast games AFAIK, so whether it can just about use nearest neighbour mipmaps at RGB888 at a viable speed to blend together and then get downsampled results to lower precision makes the semi-support for those formats somewhat moot, no? because the context of the thread is comparing against its would be peers, which use a RGB88 format for the framebuffer they send to the TV in most games.

This seems to be the same problem we are having discussing transparency - going round the houses - because if the 32 layers are only a C64 2D Blitter chip type ASIC feature that your words keep eluding to, then in the context of that generation it is disingenuous to pass it off as "transparency" when it isn't accelerated 3D transparency in the generalised way - that the monkeys in monkeyball are render with in their balls. but I'm happy for you to provide a pseudo description of the working in code, if that understanding I have is wrong.

In the context of the discussion, if the Dreamcast had supported shaders would the feature of be able to help do this refraction shader from the the opengl orangebook from these two shaders?
Vert
Frag

because if not, that again shows the gulf, between the Dreamcast and its peers because - obviously it couldn't do shaders to begin with and - the PS2 could do shaders - more versatile than Opengl 2.0 ones, as it could do the geometry primitive pipeline too which was added in Opengl 2.1 - so it could have done these fx, probably at compromising quality and performance, but could still accelerate those fx.

a51a6b23e5a36365255027fd09140af2.jpg
 
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It also was ridiculously easy to bypass its copy-protection, which was great for casual pirates but terrible for its business chances.

One of my fondest college memories was running a server where people could download Dreamcast games. I used to trade games with other people, too...got to play Shenmue II euro version instead of having to wait years for the NA Xbox release.

Sadly, though, using games burned to CD-Rs killed my Dreamcast's GD drive so I guess Sega got its vengeance.
 

Fat Frog

I advertised for Google Stadia
Defunct Sega consoles tend to become more powerful with each year passing, by the end of 2024 i expect it to settle to twice as powerful as the original Xbox.
Well, it's not our fault if GTA3 developers and others say the Dreamcast is more capable than what we thought... 😎.

- Soulcalibur was released 8 months after the launch, imagine Namco doing another fighter in 2003 with a 3 years of development and not a 1 year arcade port...
- ... bUt tHe DrEaMCast hAS aLMosT rEached ITs LimITs wIth SoULcalibur 1!

All we know is that it's a capable console for a 5 years life cycle (98-2003). We never expected Gamecube/Xbox level...
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
To add something to the topic other than Monkey Balls before I go to bed, found this tweet chain interesting:






Same line of thinking I've been following since the 00s, maybe it would have ended up as a very differently developed game if tailored to DC's architecture but any GTAIII-like seems more than doable when looking at Crazy Taxi (or better yet Crazy Taxi 2 which VASTLY improved the scenery pop in) and its blazing fast, unwavering 60fps gameplay. Sure, it doesn't have all GTA gameplay elements but they clearly had room for a lot of optimization to add more, like going for 30fps (or GTAIII's 20 or less at times), reducing the traffic density and the gameplay speed too. They did cool hair too 🤷‍♂️
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
Well, it's not our fault if GTA3 developers and others say the Dreamcast is more capable than what we thought... 😎.

- Soulcalibur was released 8 months after the launch, imagine Namco doing another fighter in 2003 with a 3 years of development and not a 1 year arcade port...
- ... bUt tHe DrEaMCast hAS aLMosT rEached ITs LimITs wIth SoULcalibur 1!

All we know is that it's a capable console for a 5 years life cycle (98-2003). We never expected Gamecube/Xbox level...
I'm not trying to be down on Sega and the Dreamcast, but just go look at all the technical demos and look at the API features available. the only way the Dreamcast would have been significantly improving on results is if the PowerVR microcode for the drivers was changeable to provide a wider set of features, because all the examples are features of Opengl 1.4 or less, because shadow mapping isn't even listed, and instead the shadow example is just very simple re-projected geometry in a transparency on a flat plane floor.

Without shaders nothing done on Dreamcast would have been relevant to present at a GDC expo from about 2003 onwards, when Doom3 was doing cutting edge stencil buffer shadows and unbelievable fidelity shader fx, and others were going big on shadow mapping techniques. Techniques that could all be replicated on PS2 at lower resolution, and most techniques that could be done on Cube at lower resolution, and some of the techniques that could be done on Xbox.

IMO there was a valid hardware reason that Japanese devs all flocked to PS2 and were excited about the EmotionEngine more so than the Xbox or Cube. Maybe only capable for 320x240@60 for all fx of the time,i but the PS2 truly provided a graphics paradigm shift for those willing to jump through crazy technical hoops to express their new graphical gaming visions early.
 
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Fat Frog

I advertised for Google Stadia
Same line of thinking I've been following since the 00s, maybe it would have ended up as a very differently developed game if tailored to DC's architecture but any GTAIII-like seems more than doable when looking at Crazy Taxi (or better yet Crazy Taxi 2 which VASTLY improved the scenery pop in) and its blazing fast, unwavering 60fps gameplay. Sure, it doesn't have all GTA gameplay elements but they clearly had room for a lot of optimization to add more, like going for 30fps (or GTAIII's 20 or less at times), reducing the traffic density and the gameplay speed too. They did cool hair too 🤷‍♂️

In a multiverse, which developer would have produced the best graphics on Dreamcast ?

Aesthethic > Square Enix.
Tech > Naughty Dog

Maybe Team Ninja for a middle ground between aesthetic and tech with Ninja Gaiden. As for Sega, I would say Smilebit with a light Panzer Dragoon Orta version.

Who else ?
 
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Drell

Member
Not a fab of the PS2 graphics , low res and jaggies.

For me the Dreamcast was the PC Engine of its day. Small, powerful and brilliantly designed. It was a sad loss to loss SEGA and NEC Inthe console race.
Was the PC engine really the loss of NEC, wasn't it the PC-FX ?
 
Yeah, I was impressed by Shenmue but the water effetcs were pretty 90's.(Not a surprise since the project even started on Saturn 😁).

I would love to see old Dreamcast classics remastered with modern tools, effects.🤪
I agree but to give the 1st Shenmue credit The way the snow and rain puddles built up over time was something we had not seen before and many games didn't offer that decade after Shenmue. Only like PGR 4 on the 360 offering the same sort of system
Was the PC engine really the loss of NEC, wasn't it the PC-FX ?
Dreamcast was very much like the PC Engine in that it only did well in one market for me and both were such tiny systems but with such power for their time
The PC Eng FX was a cock up, but I would have loved to have seen a next-gen PC Engine from Hudson and NEC
 

Geometric-Crusher

"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
Not a fab of the PS2 graphics , low res and jaggies.
do you prefer hi res jaggie? shenmue 2, MSR, Seven Mansion maybe 18 wheeler or Alien Front ?
yes 90% Dreamcast library doesn't have jaggies but the console isn't jaggie free hell even dead or alive 2 limited edition has jaggies but the first version of dead or alive 2 doesn't.
 
IMO there was a valid hardware reason that Japanese devs all flocked to PS2 and were excited about the EmotionEngine more so than the Xbox or Cube. Maybe only capable for 320x240@60 for all fx of the time,i but the PS2 truly provided a graphics paradigm shift for those willing to jump through crazy technical hoops to express their new graphical gaming visions early.

That's being economical with the truth a little. Team Ninja weren't fans of the PS2 hardware I think most of the SEGA Japan teams (other than UGA ) weren't fans of the PS2 and let's all remember how Shinji Mikami was openly hostile to the PS2; swore to never work on it on and while he is at Capcom RE4 would never come out on it. In the end, its market share gets developer support rather than hardware features.

PS2 maye have been a polygon monster for the time, but it came at the cost of a horrible display output and low res. Never really that impressed with the console myself, it was such a difference to the PS1 where from day 1 it blew ones socks off
 
do you prefer hi res jaggie? shenmue 2, MSR, Seven Mansion maybe 18 wheeler or Alien Front ?
yes 90% Dreamcast library doesn't have jaggies but the console isn't jaggie free hell even dead or alive 2 limited edition has jaggies but the first version of dead or alive 2 doesn't.
I didn't like the gfx in MSR myself. The backgrounds looked lovely but came at a massive cost to everything else, the car models were dire and I don't even know what game Seven Mansion is.
What I did like is the clean colourful vibrant look of DC games like VO 2 Dead of Alive 2, Rayman 2 or Maken X and how most DC games supported 480p.

Playing Maken X, Rayman 2 and DOA2 on the PS2 was a massive comedown even if one could argue Rayman 2 or DOA2 were doing more technically. It reminds me a lot of the N64 games doing a lot technically but at the cost of low res graphics. Back then, when you bought a new console the increase to screen res was one of the marks of the start of the next-gen consoles, not the case with the PS2 or N64 in many ways they marked a step backwards...

They all paled to the power of the OG Xbox visually and sonically. Never owned a console like the OG XBox for pushing the graphical and sound envelope so much
 
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RobRSG

Member
do you prefer hi res jaggie? shenmue 2, MSR, Seven Mansion maybe 18 wheeler or Alien Front ?
yes 90% Dreamcast library doesn't have jaggies but the console isn't jaggie free hell even dead or alive 2 limited edition has jaggies but the first version of dead or alive 2 doesn't.
Have your eyes checked.
 

Geometric-Crusher

"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
I don't even know what game Seven Mansion is.
Dreamcast's RE4
Playing Maken X, Rayman 2 and DOA2 on the PS2 was a massive comedown even if one could argue Rayman 2 or DOA2 were doing more technically. It reminds me a lot of the N64 games doing a lot technically but at the cost of low res graphics. Back then, when you bought a new console the increase to screen res was one of the marks of the start of the next-gen consoles, not the case with the PS2 or N64 in many ways they marked a step backwards...

They all paled to the power of the OG Xbox visually and sonically. Never owned a console like the OG XBox for pushing the graphical and sound envelope so much
I don't want to be a revisionist, but I didn't feel this drop in resolution, perhaps because I had a regular TV. Games like SSX, Fifa 2001, Tekken Tag Tournament didn't feel like a step back compared to what the Dreamcast was doing at all imo.

the problem with the Dreamcast is that it was surpassed very quickly, Resident Evil Code Veronica for instance is one of the most advanced graphics on the Dreamcast top 5 for sure, today with modern capture methods we know precisely that the DC version is sharper but in perspective one or another critic considered this point, It wasn't a problem for Average Joe either everyone was more attentive to the extra cutscenes provided by the DVD.

This is the poetic advantage of the ps2 and the negative part of this market, it would be as if players didn't care about the transparency on the Saturn or the 900p on the xbox one which honestly were never a real problem but at the same time why would anyone pay to run the multiplat in worse quality?
 

cireza

Member
why would anyone pay to run the multiplat in worse quality?
Yet this is what people did when buying a PS2 to play games such as DoA2. This is because most people have poop in their eyes and don't care about having a better, cleaner picture.

The most successful consoles often had shit graphics or shit picture quality. These are the NES & SNES (especially in Europe without decent SCART) , PS2, Wii and the Switch to name a few.
 
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Dreamcast's RE4

I don't want to be a revisionist, but I didn't feel this drop in resolution, perhaps because I had a regular TV. Games like SSX, Fifa 2001, Tekken Tag Tournament didn't feel like a step back compared to what the Dreamcast was doing at all imo.

the problem with the Dreamcast is that it was surpassed very quickly, Resident Evil Code Veronica for instance is one of the most advanced graphics on the Dreamcast top 5 for sure, today with modern capture methods we know precisely that the DC version is sharper but in perspective one or another critic considered this point, It wasn't a problem for Average Joe either everyone was more attentive to the extra cutscenes provided by the DVD.

This is the poetic advantage of the ps2 and the negative part of this market, it would be as if players didn't care about the transparency on the Saturn or the 900p on the xbox one which honestly were never a real problem but at the same time why would anyone pay to run the multiplat in worse quality?

You could see it on a CRT TV. You play the likes of Rayman 2, Dead or Alive 2 or Space Channel 5 2 on the DC and then the PS2 versions and it was clear. You talk of Code Veronica that was another title that looked better on the DC and Tekken Tak had jaggies everywhere until it was fixed in the Western version.

I remember the 1st year of the PS2 (import) and the DC was 9 times out of 10 up there with it or even having better looking games. It wasn't until I played ESPN Track and Field that I saw a game with polygons way beyond the DC but that came at a cost of low res and jaggies . The killer moment was the MGS E3 demo and when my mate had SH2 and ICO on the import and played it down his house and for the 1st time saw graphics way beyond the DC and was impressed enough to buy the system for once

But one also needs to factor in the budgets and support the PS2 games got and hardware coming out over a year later should also be superior or like Yuji Naka told EDGE mag, 'please will laugh'
The OG XBox came just a year after the PS2 and just blew everything away almost on day one. They were OG Xbox titles that looked better than some 360 games in the shape of Conkers and Splinter Cell 3. It was a beast of a system
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
That's being economical with the truth a little. Team Ninja weren't fans of the PS2 hardware I think most of the SEGA Japan teams (other than UGA ) weren't fans of the PS2 and let's all remember how Shinji Mikami was openly hostile to the PS2; swore to never work on it on and while he is at Capcom RE4 would never come out on it. In the end, its market share gets developer support rather than hardware features.

PS2 maye have been a polygon monster for the time, but it came at the cost of a horrible display output and low res. Never really that impressed with the console myself, it was such a difference to the PS1 where from day 1 it blew ones socks off
I was actually just paraphrasing a collective opinion from a gaming documentary I watched years ago on Netflix where they had retrospective interviews with an assortment of Japanese developers and Xbox staff that had be sent to sign developers at the Tokyo Game Show, and a combination of the developers waxing lyrical about how they were sold completely on the pitch of the EmotionEngine by PlayStation for physics, - which at the time on PC was PhysX and Havok add-on cards - and animation, and the new graphics paradigm with far more versatility, even more than the PC when you consider Primitive shading wasn't even a graphics extension in Opengl at that stage on an percentage of gaming PCs.

The Xbox executives equally explained how they struggled to impress to win over support or get contracts signed with their: "this is the hardware" approach absent of a creative vision with the hardware software synergy vision that PlayStation was selling.
 
You could see it on a CRT TV. You play the likes of Rayman 2, Dead or Alive 2 or Space Channel 5 2 on the DC and then the PS2 versions and it was clear. You talk of Code Veronica that was another title that looked better on the DC and Tekken Tak had jaggies everywhere until it was fixed in the Western version.

that is because its a problem with the game not the system, PS2 doesnt have a fixed resolution(actually none of those systems has one), it lets you use the Edram as you want, there are games that are very jagged but others not, as devs learned to use the texture refreshes and other special considerations of edram games improved dramatically to the point of using effect like normal mapping and depth of field effects this also impacts resolution, DC games ported to PS2 were notoriously bad for the most part with few exceptions something simialr happens with GC as it has 1 MB for texture buffer and 2 MB for framebuffers(+ Z buffer),. DC can use its space as it needs but also vary per game and there are considerations for what textures and effects you require

there were software that allowed you to force game into progressive modes and special modes back in the day, for PS2 currently its very simple and free with freemcboot
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
This for sure. There was simply no discussion to be had, from the get go games looked much better.
To the trained eye, they were largely just higher resolution and higher resolution textures, and higher fps, while missing fx that would have crippled the Xbox's mismatched fillrate damaging resolution and frame-rate IMO, but the lack of discussion came mainly because an included HDD in every console, a feature they would drop with the 360 arcade, and the massive amount of memory meant that it wasn't just the results of looking like a mid-range 2000 PC resolution game on Xbox, but the ease with which developers got to that stage with many games.

Had the PS2 or GC had either double the memory or a pack-in HDD, then scrutiny of the composition of the final image would have been more of a discussion IMO. Time splitters 2 is a very interesting face off, where Cube has most of the resolution/performance, clean image and all the fx, and is arguably the most complete version, PS2 version has all the fx but looks rougher at the resolution/aspect ratio chosen with a washed out look and the Xbox version is the exact opposite IIRC, missing most of the per pixel work, but looks super sharp and super vibrant at a high resolution.
 

SHA

Member
It started earlier, I know this isn't the case with the 7th gen, Sony in the middle and had the most broad and clear vision, it launched between the Dreamcast and the rest in the competition, especially after the game cube and xbox, the DC were in 4th place and it's just hard to count upto 4 in the console business.
 
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cireza

Member
To the trained eye, they were largely just higher resolution and higher resolution textures, and higher fps, while missing fx that would have crippled the Xbox's mismatched fillrate damaging resolution and frame-rate IMO, but the lack of discussion came mainly because an included HDD in every console, a feature they would drop with the 360 arcade, and the massive amount of memory meant that it wasn't just the results of looking like a mid-range 2000 PC resolution game on Xbox, but the ease with which developers got to that stage with many games.

Had the PS2 or GC had either double the memory or a pack-in HDD, then scrutiny of the composition of the final image would have been more of a discussion IMO. Time splitters 2 is a very interesting face off, where Cube has most of the resolution/performance, clean image and all the fx, and is arguably the most complete version, PS2 version has all the fx but looks rougher at the resolution/aspect ratio chosen with a washed out look and the Xbox version is the exact opposite IIRC, missing most of the per pixel work, but looks super sharp and super vibrant at a high resolution.
At this point we all know that PS2 was good at making effects and had a shit image. Effects are nice to show off, but in the end many will prefer a better resolution, better framerate and cleaner picture. The majority though will not see the difference.
 
I was actually just paraphrasing a collective opinion from a gaming documentary I watched years ago on Netflix where they had retrospective interviews with an assortment of Japanese developers and Xbox staff that had be sent to sign developers at the Tokyo Game Show, and a combination of the developers waxing lyrical about how they were sold completely on the pitch of the EmotionEngine by PlayStation for physics, - which at the time on PC was PhysX and Havok add-on cards - and animation, and the new graphics paradigm with far more versatility, even more than the PC when you consider Primitive shading wasn't even a graphics extension in Opengl at that stage on an percentage of gaming PCs.

The Xbox executives equally explained how they struggled to impress to win over support or get contracts signed with their: "this is the hardware" approach absent of a creative vision with the hardware software synergy vision that PlayStation was selling.

Netflix says it all, I guess. Funny how they neglected to interview Team Ninja or the likes of Shinji Mikami who ranted against the PS2 and one of the main reasons Capcom looked to make the Cube 5 and we had all the talk of Nintendo buying Capcom
 
that is because its a problem with the game not the system, PS2 doesnt have a fixed resolution(actually none of those systems has one), it lets you use the Edram as you want, there are games that are very jagged but others not, as devs learned to use the texture refreshes and other special considerations of edram games improved dramatically to the point of using effect like normal mapping and depth of field effects this also impacts resolution, DC games ported to PS2 were notoriously bad for the most part with few exceptions something simialr happens with GC as it has 1 MB for texture buffer and 2 MB for framebuffers(+ Z buffer),. DC can use its space as it needs but also vary per game and there are considerations for what textures and effects you require

there were software that allowed you to force game into progressive modes and special modes back in the day, for PS2 currently its very simple and free with freemcboot
It was the system this isn't just about jaggies and it wasn't just DC ports lots of native PS2 games didn't come close to 640X480 when played on the real hardware back in the day. I remember being stunned at how low res and simple the graphics were in Time Splitters on its Pal launch and even the likes of Ghost Hunter was low res, it did push nice effects mind.

DC, GameCube and XBox just did the output so much better IMO
 
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At this point we all know that PS2 was good at making effects and had a shit image. Effects are nice to show off, but in the end many will prefer a better resolution, better framerate and cleaner picture. The majority though will not see the difference.
And at this point, we all know the PS2 fans can dish it out, but can't take it back :p
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
which at the time on PC was PhysX and Havok add-on cards
Not seeing what part of "emotion engine" has anything to do with havok or physx dedicated physics processing cards to excite devs in any way regarding them, it's just the name they gave to the whole PS2 soc hyping it up as producing real life like games (lol). What documentary was that?!​
In 2004, Ageia acquired NovodeX AG and began developing a hardware technology that could accelerate physics calculations, aiding the CPU. Ageia called the technology PhysX, the SDK was renamed from NovodeX to PhysX, and the accelerator cards were dubbed PPUs (Physics Processing Units).
Granted the first havok game hit in like 1999 but I doubt anyone (and especially Japanese developers who didn't use western middleware) was really excited about such tech before PS2 was out either, it probably only became known with Half-Life 2 in 2004 (and most games didn't do much with it).

Games have always had some kind of physics and just like graphics and sound they constantly improved (see 1996 VF3 IK), but it's not related to what physx hyped/wanted to do post-2004 with dedicated physics cards (and later gpus taking their place), itself often underwhelming extra debris...

And of course since all that was in fact post-2004 they couldn't have been excited about having it built-in in PS2 which decidedly is against the whole premise of it and simply uses other components to handle the physics just like every other system without a physics card ever did before & after.

Outside what physx attempted to do (basically sell folks ppus the same way they bought gpus and failed at it), havok was otherwise just a software middleware solution to things other/most developers were doing in their own engines in their own ways already before & after physx came along.

People just didn't generally go all omg teh car physics in Daytona USA or Sega Rally like someone was selling a physics product to them like havok wanted to sell to developers the way epic/id sold game/graphics engines to them, they just thought it was great fun to play and race in them.

Tl;dr maybe some random devs were excited for having real life like games in general, in graphics, sound, animation (poor TTT), even physics or whatever, falling like the gamers for the hype Sony sold based on next to nothing, but it has nothing to do with physx PPUs, which came way later.​
 
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Not seeing what part of "emotion engine" has anything to do with havok or physx to excite devs about that aspect, it's just the name they gave to the whole PS2 soc hyping it up as producing real life like games, lol?

Granted the first havok game hit in like 1999 but I doubt anyone was really excited about such tech before PS2 was out either, it probably only actually became known with Max Payne 2 in 2003 if not Half-Life 2 in 2004.

the VU for example are very fast with math, and very good for physics in general in fact games with havok physics were very common during the generation there where other engines too but it was usually the most popular






Yes, games have always had some form of physics,

sure but not as advanced and applied to as many objects as what was achieved during those years, unfortunately DC was lacking in that, even GC wasn't up to the task in some games like burnout 3 according to a developer from criterion
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
At this point we all know that PS2 was good at making effects and had a shit image. Effects are nice to show off, but in the end many will prefer a better resolution, better framerate and cleaner picture. The majority though will not see the difference.
Not for games aging they won't, and all the finishing games on the PS2 looked far better than anything on Xbox IMO, games like GT4 that still are the core of the GT7 experience, today, as Is Prov Evo to eFootball. Games like Ico, SotC, VF4 Evo, etc not to mention MGS2 and Snake Eater, which has amazing gameplay improving FX like nighvision, heat vision, particle smoke. in an emulator PS2 games with FX missing on Xbox will look far better than their Xbox versions in an emulator with just resolution and frame-rates improved IMO.- although textures might tip the balance the other way.

I'd even argue that we never got to see the best of PS2, because Microsoft leaping to the 360 so soon stole a year of further development to improve PS2 tools. It was so complex that I believe further iterations on its tools would have yielded even bigger improvements over many years,, but I guess the rapid move in TV technology taking the average TV size from 20" to 32" and with HD ready really worked against us seeing the PS2 tools at the same maturity of the PS1.
 

Geometric-Crusher

"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
It wasn't until I played ESPN Track and Field that I saw a game with polygons way beyond the DC but that came at a cost of low res and jaggies .
You should have played F1 Championship Season 2000 (100.000 poly per frame)
polygon per second, the ps2 has imposed superiority since day one, polygon per frame is more complicated, but it also occurred
imo, the Dreamcast was surpassed in the first generation of games for the ps2, which began in March 2000 until June 2001. many of them were doing things that we would hardly see on the Dreamcast in terms of lighting, models and frame rate.
I will leave just one example but there are a lot more


However Tekken Tag, SSX, unreal Tournament and Onimusha they were on another level.
The killer moment was the MGS E3 demo and for the 1st time saw graphics way beyond the DC and was impressed enough to buy the system for once

But one also needs to factor in the budgets and support the PS2 games got and hardware coming out over a year later should also be superior
I took a while to buy my ps2 but it seemed better to me since us launch Tekken Tag, SSX and Fifa 2001. Maybe I have this impression because on my Dreamcast I played simpler games like Mortal Kombat Gold, Virtua Striker 2, Rush 2049, Shadow man instead of Soul Calibur, Shenmue, Jet Set Radio.
 
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You should have played F1 Championship Season 2000 (100.000 poly per frame)
polygon per second, the ps2 has imposed superiority since day one, polygon per frame is more complicated, but it also occurred
imo, the Dreamcast was surpassed in the first generation of games for the ps2, which began in March 2000 until June 2001. many of them were doing things that we would hardly see on the Dreamcast in terms of lighting, models and frame rate.
I will leave just one example but there are a lot more


However Tekken Tag, SSX, unreal Tournament and Onimusha they were on another level.

I took a while to buy my ps2 but it seemed better to me since us launch Tekken Tag, SSX and Fifa 2001. Maybe I have this impression because on my Dreamcast I played simpler games like Mortal Kombat Gold, Virtua Striker 2, Rush 2049, Shadow man instead of Soul Calibur, Shenmue, Jet Set Radio.

I wasn't on about the number of polygons but the quality of display and screen res and I also made the point of going on when the PS2 hit Japan. I also didn't think Onimusha looked that great myself and was more impressed with Alone In the Dark IV on the DC
and while Virtual Striker didn't play better it looked a lot better than Fifa 2001. SSX looked good mind but had jaggies and the screen res wasn't the best, Cool Boarders Burrrn looked so much better to me, shame it played like junk.

PS2 ESPN Track and Field impressed me and then more so Silent Hill 2 and ICO which made me buy the system from my import shop. A 10% complete JSRF running on the Xbox at E3 2001 blew me away and it was clear to me even then, the OG Xbox was going to be a beast.
 

Variahunter

Member
I was a Nintendo fanboy back in the day and had the Nintendo 64 for Christmas 97, when it launched in Europe.
Think about this :
N64 Japan launch date was June 1996 with almost no games aside Mario 64.

Dreamcast Japanese launched in November 1998 with Sonic and Soul Calibur, + Powerstone and Blue stinger 3 months after I think ?

Sure, the N64 had games for Christmas 1996 with Mario Kart 64.

But if you tell me I could have waited 2 years to have this power inside my N64, and have the legendary games like OoT, MM, Goldeneye, Banjo, Bomberman 64 (yes, so good), Jet Force Gemini, Dk64, Castlevania 64, Smash bros, Conker, Starfox, Ogre Battle 64, Body Harvest (without the technical constraints it could have been great), Duke Nukem Zero Hour, Extreme G, Goemon, F Zero, KI, Megaman 64, Paper Mario ?

Where do I sign ? I mean just for 2 years the gap was ridiculously high!

Imagine having OoT 3DS (basically, if not better) at launch in 1998… and maybe in 60 fps.

Or Killer Instinct with that Soulcalibur graphic quality ?
A lot of the mid games would be much better regarded today if they had Dreamcast graphics. Castlevania 64, Body Harvest, Bomberman 64 were so good to me, they just had poor presentation imo.

I’m still wanting a Jet Force Gemini Remake. Unfortunately it’s in the incompetent hands of Microsoft now.

But it would have gotten, like the Dreamcast, old really fast before the PS2 launch.

So yeah, Dreamcast was incredible in 1998, you had to be there from the eyes of a young boy.

But Sega themselves didn’t take full advantage of their console. No Shining Force 4 in beautiful 3D (for the time) is a real stinker. Same for Shinobi.

Sega is still struggling to make good 3D transition for their 2D franchise to this day, even with Sonic… it’s sad.

How the fuck did Streets of rage did not transitions into a DMC like ? Same for Shinobi ?

PSO was cool, but the classic franchise is still dead to this day, Shining is basically dead too. Panzer Dragoon Saga 2 ?

Sega has always been focused too much on arcade games, that’s their problem. They didn’t see the market was changing. At least we had good runs with Virtua Fighter.
 
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Angelcurio

Member
I was a huge fan of 2d fighting games back then, and the Dreamcast ports of those games were almost arcade perfect, no missing frames of animation like on PS1, or not being able to tag in and out in Marvel vs Capcom. Then you had gems like JSR, Dead or Alive and Shenmue.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Not seeing what part of "emotion engine" has anything to do with havok or physx & dedicated physics processing units to excite devs in any way regarding them​
Optimised collision code on PS2 ran triangle-2-triangle intersection tests at the rate of around 15M/s. A contemporary Intel CPU was lucky to hit 1/10th of that in the same workload.
But you're right - this didn't necessitate any middleware - it was just one of the things PS2 hardware was good at accelerating (best in class really - for this particular scenario).

DC, GameCube and XBox just did the output so much better IMO
GC was as often sub 640 as PS2 games were (512x480 was very common, but not the only res used) - especially in multiplats.
Fundamentally it's developers picking their trade-offs, not 'hardware handling' - ie. as much as people hail 480p outputs for the era, it wouldn't be until well into PS2 being the only machine on the market that Progressive scan panels were actually common in the market. SDTVs were where most people played, so specific hacks for that were predominant.
 
GC was as often sub 640 as PS2 games were (512x480 was very common, but not the only res used) - especially in multiplats.
Fundamentally it's developers picking their trade-offs, not 'hardware handling' - ie. as much as people hail 480p outputs for the era, it wouldn't be until well into PS2 being the only machine on the market that Progressive scan panels were actually common in the market. SDTVs were where most people played, so specific hacks for that were predominant.

Game Cube games for the main looked better and I just don't buy not many people had 480p. DC games run at a higher res even on a CRT, it was clear to see and the beauty of the DC was you didn't need a Progressive scan panel to enjoy 480P Just your basic PC monitor with VGA input would do.
Like the N64 the screen res and output of the PS2 was a letdown to me.

I still enjoyed the N64 a huge amount mind
 

Geometric-Crusher

"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
Yet this is what people did when buying a PS2 to play games such as DoA2.
This is the point.
There is a difference between the transparency of the Saturn and the IQ of the PS2. Firstly, since transparency is a weakness and so is IQ, the difference is in the greater processing power in favor of the PS2 which the Saturn did not have compared to the PS1.
This is because most people have poop in their eyes and don't care about having a better, cleaner picture.
people are intelligent, don't underestimate them, they realized that the IQ problems were programming difficulties and that it would improve, as it actually improved in Tekken Tag.
DOA2 Hardcore has more stages, effects and in some stages it is superior to the Dreamcast version, such as in the fight against Tengu which had a correction in the effect compared to the original version, the snow stage and the water stage are also better on the PS2, in the window stage the Hardcore version fixed the fog, it is still inferior to the Dreamcast by a hair , Helena's stage is almost the same. Adding all this up, it's difficult to call the PS2 port the worst version, whoever chooses the Dreamcast version as the best will be doing so based on the floor texture on the prison and the stage before Tengu, also the reactor stage looks like a PC version Dreamcast, and 3 other stages in addition to not showing interlacing on its IQ.
 
Dreamcast Japanese launched in November 1998 with Sonic and Soul Calibur, + Powerstone and Blue stinger 3 months after I think ?
No, The DC launched in Japan only with Pen Pen, July and VF3Tb and PSO is still going strong mate and bring in the cash for SEGA
 
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Puscifer

Member
This is the point.
There is a difference between the transparency of the Saturn and the IQ of the PS2. Firstly, since transparency is a weakness and so is IQ, the difference is in the greater processing power in favor of the PS2 which the Saturn did not have compared to the PS1.

people are intelligent, don't underestimate them, they realized that the IQ problems were programming difficulties and that it would improve, as it actually improved in Tekken Tag.
DOA2 Hardcore has more stages, effects and in some stages it is superior to the Dreamcast version, such as in the fight against Tengu which had a correction in the effect compared to the original version, the snow stage and the water stage are also better on the PS2, in the window stage the Hardcore version fixed the fog, it is still inferior to the Dreamcast by a hair , Helena's stage is almost the same. Adding all this up, it's difficult to call the PS2 port the worst version, whoever chooses the Dreamcast version as the best will be doing so based on the floor texture on the prison and the stage before Tengu, also the reactor stage looks like a PC version Dreamcast, and 3 other stages in addition to not showing interlacing on its IQ.
Just to add, there's an interview where Itagaki even said they launched DOA 2 hardcore before it was finished.

 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Game Cube games for the main looked better
Resolution, much like reduced color depth on a lot of GC games, was a fact. Not debating what people personally noticed or not - we all know what thread we're in 🤷‍♂️
Likewise for most people not playing on (or having access to) progressive scan displays.

you didn't need a Progressive scan panel to enjoy 480P Just your basic PC monitor with VGA input would do.
VGA was progressive scan ('technically' you could still use VGA monitors to display interlaced - but I can't think of many people that did).
Just like how very few people plugged consoles into PC monitors.
 

FoxMcChief

Gold Member
The fact that we haven’t seen a Dreamcast mini released yet makes me hate this fucking planet. I would trample over hundreds of kids and parents to secure at least two!

15 games that must be included:

Sonic Adventure
Skies of Arcadia
Crazy Taxi
Resident Evil: Code Veronica
Jet Set Radio
Soul Calibur
Virtua Tennis
Powerstone
Ecco the dolphin
Dino Crisis
Grandia 2
Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver
Marvel vs. Capcom 2
Metropolis Street Racer
Shenmue


Dreamcast might be my favorite console ever.
 
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Geometric-Crusher

"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
I remember being stunned at how low res and simple the graphics were in Time Splitters on its Pal launch
Time Splitters is anything but simple, the game looks like the one in the video above, Free Radical Design delivered an fps game at 60 frames. You're wrong if you think the Dreamcast could run this game without massive simplification, at 60 frames the best Sega could deliver was Ottrigger.

Anothe 60fps Gungriffon Blaze
 
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Time Splitters is anything but simple, the game looks like the one in the video above, Free Radical Design delivered an fps game at 60 frames. You're wrong if you think the Dreamcast could run this game without massive simplification, at 60 frames the best Sega could deliver was Ottrigger.

Anothe 60fps Gungriffon Blaze

And Outrigger looks bad according to you?



Game looked great! Sadly didnt offered the chance to customize controls, as Quake 3. But i´m not expert, but OT looks better to me than Dreamcast UT.
 
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Esppiral

Member
Just to add, there's an interview where Itagaki even said they launched DOA 2 hardcore before it was finished.

Content wise, they re-released it as Hard*Core not hardcore, later on with fixes.

If you've played both versions the PS2 version has A LOT more features and many stages added effects and new elements far from unfinished.

One of those unfinished things was that the first release of the PS2 version has a low poly Kasumi, they eventually updated it for the Hard*core Japanese version along with new custscenes among other things.

Some made their way to the Dreamcast Japanese limited edition (they ported it from the PS2 Hard*core version) just look at her arm ..

Example

Left PS2 first release right Dreamcast limited edition.

Screenshot_2024-05-06-20-27-30-190_com.android.chrome-edit.jpg
 
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Puscifer

Member
Content wise, they re-released it as Hard*Core not hardcore, later on with fixes.

If you've played both versions the PS2 version has A LOT more features and many stages added effects and new elements far from unfinished.
I played Hardcore and liked it more than Dreamcast. Where's Hard*Core?
 

cireza

Member
the difference is in the greater processing power in favor of the PS2 which the Saturn did not have compared to the PS1.
Making such a conclusion makes absolutely no sense. Fully use the VDP1 and the VDP2, as the console architecture intended, and you get games that would have to be compromised to run on PS2. It is impossible to factually summarize Saturn and PS1 with "PS1 was more powerful than Saturn". This is certainly not true at all.

However, "PS2 has a shit picture quality" is factual and has been largely observed throughout the entirety of its lifespan.
 
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