ShemhazaiX
Member
In counterpoint, a lot of the counter posts are literally based on speculation and assumptions on how things work to argue their point.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
In counterpoint, a lot of the counter posts are literally based on speculation and assumptions on how things work to argue their point.
what's weird to me is talking about the founder that committed suicide Logan didn't know his name or what he looked like.
Shit like that is designed to draw attention so I think.... either they're in the same timeline or the founder they're talking about isn't Arnold.
Honestly with how hard it is for anyone to know anything about Arnold I'm beginning to think that the whole arnold story is fabricated.
Shit like that is designed to draw attention so I think.... either they're in the same timeline or the founder they're talking about isn't Arnold.
Honestly with how hard it is for anyone to know anything about Arnold I'm beginning to think that the whole arnold story is fabricated.
Still waiting for a reasonable explanation for why there are two distinct logos for Westworld used in the show that isn't "omg it's just a production error! reshoots!!!"
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I dunno. The logo thing is why I still think the two timelines is a possibility. I don't subscribe to William = MiB though.
Jack Scofield
Member
I just watched this episode now, so forgive me if this has been asked a million times, but how is it that the hosts were able to hurt the shitty bad guy friend? I thoughts guests couldn't be hurt in Westworld.
The further out, more dangerous the area they are programmed that they can actually attack the guests but only to rough them up for the feelings of danger, they can't actually do any real lasting injuries, only far enough to present the illusion of risk.
Not just a theory, I got the straight from an interview with either Nolan or Brubaker, not sure which might have been both.
I'm pretty sure it was in one of the many links Cornballer has provided.
It does beg the question though - in the case of say, Logan getting choked, what would have happened if William sucked so much he couldn't kill any of them, or if he just stood there, or decided to walk away. Would the choking suddenly stop? Would a snake come from behind and bite the dude? Or was Logan able to overpower him all along?
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
New episode tonight!
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I expect the hosts would improvise in ways that didn't break narrative. Rather than just stop choking a guest, one of the gang would say "Hold up, let's take him with us and do something even worse to him." Then turn around and give the guest a convenient chance to steal their gun and shoot them in the back. That sort of thing.
However, I'd guess that if a host has a guest in a totally dead-end situation with no narrative solution, the Samaritan directive would indeed make the host break character and protect the guest.
Jack Scofield
Member
Just seems odd. So hosts can punch and choke guests, but swatting a fly is a huge no-no?
BarringGaffner
Member
This was laid out so clearly I don't get the confusion.
If she is programmed not to harm even a fly, and she does, then that means that she is either conscious and can make decisions or at least that her programming is flawed and humans in the park may be in danger.
beat
Member
It's not really great writing in this aspect IMO but my fan theory is that punching a human guest can be calibrated to be non-lethal a lot more easily than swatting a fly. And since there's an ironclad rule for hosts against killing, that's why.
The confusion is because the first episode presents "no fly killing" as a kind of universal thing. There's several shots of hosts just letting flies crawl on their eyes without the hosts reacting. So it's unclear if "don't hurt a fly" is breaking a personal taboo or a hardwired taboo. Obviously it has to be the first.
But then it's weird that there's so much variation among hosts. Dolores receives the same software update as that milk-massacre lunatic. That milk dude doesn't hurt any guests in that scene, but he doesn't seem like a host who *should* be totally barred from hurting guests like Dolores apparently is. We don't know what the common Laws of Robotics are, and we don't know the mechanisms of variation. So the show presented the fly thing in a way that made it seem Important but then totally dropped it as a going concern.
It's a mess tho. Teddy swats at flies when he comes upon the tied up bodies on his little adventure with that lady in pursuit of Wyatt. Before he's captured. Teddy who's otherwise shown no self-awareness of deviation from script, to Dolores's dismay.
The old logo is only used in the welcome center level and lower levels; new logo is only seen in upper corporate levels / R&D.
This could be for any number of reasons:
- public-facing logo vs internal logo
- two logos for two different departments
- "classic" logo still in use for nostalgic reasons
- narrative device to show that certain levels of the headquarters are older than others
I was a few episodes behind but I caught up.
It's crazy how Dr. Ford can seem both kind and terrifying at the same time. He's operating on an entirely different level from the rest of the characters and just watches their story arcs unfold while he works on his own.
MiB's interactions with the world are interesting too. He doesn't have any personal grudges against any of the robots so he's able to change allegiances with them as soon as they've reset and it won't seem out of place for the plot because he's always doing it to further his own ends, and he knows that everyone's just playing a part, including himself because he felt like the world didn't have a main antagonist and resolved to become that main antagonist.
I assume that the further out you get, the more you're able to up the stakes on how much punishment they can inflict on the guests, but it'll never escalate to severe injury or straight up killing a guest. Kinda like those extreme escape rooms where you have to sign a liability waiver.
It's crazy how Dr. Ford can seem both kind and terrifying at the same time. He's operating on an entirely different level from the rest of the characters and just watches their story arcs unfold while he works on his own.
MiB's interactions with the world are interesting too. He doesn't have any personal grudges against any of the robots so he's able to change allegiances with them as soon as they've reset and it won't seem out of place for the plot because he's always doing it to further his own ends, and he knows that everyone's just playing a part, including himself because he felt like the world didn't have a main antagonist and resolved to become that main antagonist.
I assume that the further out you get, the more you're able to up the stakes on how much punishment they can inflict on the guests, but it'll never escalate to severe injury or straight up killing a guest. Kinda like those extreme escape rooms where you have to sign a liability waiver.
Am I the only one that is starting to feel like the arcs within the park are kind of... boring? I mean I love the stuff happening at the park management, I like most of the characters there. Bernard and Teresa, the girl who's investigating the weird stuff (Elsa?), Anthony Hopkins, they're all fantastic and I enjoy their screentime a lot.
Then you have William Yawn Goodboy and his Sansa-lite waifu Doll-ores, his shitty badboy friend who thinks he's a better actor than he really is and the most boring character in the show, Dolores' boyfriend. I mean the only thing going on here that is actually interesting to me is Ed Harris quest. I don't care about the "adventures" these people are having in a fake world where nothing robotish/fake is happening, I care about the interconnection between both. I don't give a damn about an alledged betrayal from this Lasso guy to some random robot army. If I cared about that I'd watch a western movie with no robots.
Scenes like the conversation between Teresa and Dr. Ford are the reason I thought I was going to love this show. But they're starting to feel so buried under all this by-the-numbers little western adventures.
That said I still like it a lot and I think and hope this is just a necessary step that will soon be left behind as the show evolves.
Then you have William Yawn Goodboy and his Sansa-lite waifu Doll-ores, his shitty badboy friend who thinks he's a better actor than he really is and the most boring character in the show, Dolores' boyfriend. I mean the only thing going on here that is actually interesting to me is Ed Harris quest. I don't care about the "adventures" these people are having in a fake world where nothing robotish/fake is happening, I care about the interconnection between both. I don't give a damn about an alledged betrayal from this Lasso guy to some random robot army. If I cared about that I'd watch a western movie with no robots.
Scenes like the conversation between Teresa and Dr. Ford are the reason I thought I was going to love this show. But they're starting to feel so buried under all this by-the-numbers little western adventures.
That said I still like it a lot and I think and hope this is just a necessary step that will soon be left behind as the show evolves.
Deaf Spacker
Memb
I've just read the last few pages of this thread and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who's getting confused, not just by the story but why hosts were able to physically attack Logan when such a big deal was made about them not even swatting a fly in the earlier episodes etc.
I genuinely have no idea WTF is going on, I *think* we are seeing a past and present but I'm not sure, even my wife is starting to get frustrated by the story.
I genuinely have no idea WTF is going on, I *think* we are seeing a past and present but I'm not sure, even my wife is starting to get frustrated by the story.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
In the past, maybe they could do more physical harm. There was an incident which I'm sure is coming up. I'm going to guess someone dies, thus they put even greater restrictions on the hosts.
Deaf Spacker
Memb
That actually makes sense, if we are seeing the past and present that is.
I agree, and I feel it's going to be Logan.
elrechazado
Banned
It's pretty ridiculous though. If people are being punched and choked, someone is going to.die. the law even.recognizes how people are completely different. Just Google the eggshell plaintiff. A punch might kill one in a thousand people. A choke the same. Yeah it's fiction....
Punching people who know very well what they are getting themselves into (I'd have to imagine guests get briefed about how the park works) is pretty different than swatting at defenseless flies just trying to get along with their lives. Especially considering that you have to actively seek out situations where hosts are that aggressive. Besides, the show never pretended that hosts can't hurt people (episode 2 shows that bullets can hurt).
Multiple timelines can be used to explain it, but aren't really necessary.
Would that really be an issue if people absolutely knew what they were getting themselves into though (and signed a waiver + went through a medical exam certifying that they are healthy enough not to die from simple punches before entering the park)? There's plenty of violent sports people are ok with, and even occasional deaths in sports don't really seem to stain their reputation too much.
The whole park would be very strange if it ever happened in the real world, but I don't think it's all that hard to accept in the show. Hosts can hurt you, but they try very, very hard not to kill you - to such an extent that it should never happen outside of some sort of error/malfunction.
Logan in episode 5
Man in Black in episode 4
More importantly though
Man in Black in episode 5
If we accept two timelines then I still find it hard to believe that the hosts are mechanical in the William timeline. Since this is William's first visit it seems pretty impossible for him to have done the things MiB says he's done.
Man in Black in episode 4
I thought the phrase matching was interesting.
More importantly though
Man in Black in episode 5
If we accept two timelines then I still find it hard to believe that the hosts are mechanical in the William timeline. Since this is William's first visit it seems pretty impossible for him to have done the things MiB says he's done.
Hosts could have gone through several iterations of mechanical frames before going to the organic version. Old bill could have been from an earlier version that was more robotic.
Robot Pants
Member
Someone in this thread told me I was crazy for thinking that.
They said that line for a reason, "not even a picture of the guy"
Now there is an apparent picture in Ford's office, and he did say the company expunged him from all the records and he let them do it. Still something fishy about it.
There have been several shots of current hosts in the "testing" flashback, amongst them, Dolores father, the woman who greeted William at the welcome center, and the woman with the snake tattoo. Suggesting all three (and probably more) have been around since before the park was open.
Also, Logan tells William that the park is loosing money (when talking about their company investing), the change to more flesh and blood hosts could've been one of the cost saving things they did after taking over.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I agree.
Chiaroscuro
Member
I think Who was Arnold? Mistery, the board vs Ford battle, who is stealing information from within the park, are all later seasons material.
The first season should conclude Dolores quest to find the labyrinth (or worst a cliffhanger to the beginning of season 2) and her envounter with MiB. We will find out if the different timelines theory is true or not (this ambiguity has to end this season). We will learn the fate of Willian and Logan too. MiB can be either one of them.
The first season should conclude Dolores quest to find the labyrinth (or worst a cliffhanger to the beginning of season 2) and her envounter with MiB. We will find out if the different timelines theory is true or not (this ambiguity has to end this season). We will learn the fate of Willian and Logan too. MiB can be either one of them.
Operations
Member
The only thing that makes me doubt the two timeline theory is that Dolores flashbacks and blacks out in front of William ("are you ok?" - "Must be the wind" reply) which shouldn't be happening during Williams's timeline if thata allegedly her first experience.
I might be wrong but I remember Arnold being introduced at the same time as they introduced a new character as part of Ford's story, Wyatt. They share some similarities in that they are only known through the stories told about them so far. The symmetry feels intentional.
Dreadnought
Member
When do the episodes come out? I assume 9PM EST like Game of Thrones?
Yep that is what I thought as soon as she had them.
It isn't crazy for an old logo to be around in the park. As in, it's nothing.gif
Yep, this.
This would make sense if it were like, some random part. But both of the logos have been in very prominent areas (entrance for new guests, smack dab in the middle of that pretentious new campaign presentation) and presented center screen.
So watching the movie won't spoil anything in the show?
Nah, completely different.
They're not really related beyond the basic idea + some character conceits.
If it's nothing why have two logos at all? You're even acknowledging that one is an "old" logo. Why? Creators create things with intent. If there is no purpose it doesn't need to exist. Why confuse people unnecessarily?
More_Badass
Member
Another old logo
LumpOfCole
Member
Specifically associated with a legacy system. I'd be pretty smug if I were a double timeline theorist right now.