Support NeoGAF

[DrROBschiz]

UUUGGGGG

We need more tidbits to keep the topic alive

So much cannibalism going on here lol

You monsters

 

[Scrawnton]

If NX truly is a console and handheld shared ecosystem, I'll be up to my neck in games despite the lack of third party support. 3ds and Wii U barely gets anything out of 3rd parties and I can't even keep up with those games. The big offender is 3ds and all the JRPGs I love.

There's basically three scenarios:
- NX console is releasing this year; has good Western support but we haven't heard anything due to heavy NDA & ease of porting games from PS4/XB1 (so only a few programmers/engineers would actually need dev kits/SDK now).
- NX portable is actually what's releasing this year, mainly with Japanese 3rd party support. Console to follow in 2017. No reason to include many Western developers yet since they will still have plenty of time to port games for a 2017 launch over after everything is revealed at E3.
- Nintendo is ignoring Western third parties for the most part. Higher likelihood here of the console being underpowered or maybe a "hybrid" or cheap Vita TV version of the portable.

I would be okay with the third option. I'm biased, though. I love Japanese games. If nintendo got all the big Japanese games plus their own first party games, I can exist with it being my only console.

 

[Turrican3]

This could very well be my memory playing tricks, but I definitely can't remember any solid leaks regarding the wiimote before its actual unveiling 10+ years ago.
Or at least, nothing that could have made us guess with decent accuracy what the actual controller was going to be.

Mind you, I can perfectly understand why it would be reasonable to keep expectations to a low level due to recent Nintendo mishandlings, but on the other hand I believe there is a chance, albeit small, that a tight NDA might actually be in place preventing any significant information from leaking.

Just my 2c.

 

[Scrawnton]

This could very well be my memory playing tricks, but I definitely can't remember any solid leaks regarding the wiimote before its actual unveiling 10+ years ago. Or at least, nothing that could have made us guessing what the actual controller was going to be.

Mind you, I can perfectly understand why it would be reasonable to keep expectations to a low level due to recent Nintendo mishandlings, but on the other hand I believe there is a chance, albeit small, that a tight NDA might actually be in place preventing any significant information from leaking.

Just my 2c.

My guess would be a tight NDA. Square Enix's slip up last year was enough to let us know that some devs have kits and are already developing for it now. After that, we heard next to nothing about NX. I think we are dealing with a strict NDA

 

[Fourth Storm]

I'm fairly certain we had a dev on here confirm that the original specs they got from Nintendo about the Wii U were well above the actual power of the devkits they eventually got, indicating a definite downgrade took place.

From what I can gather, it wasn't specs per say, but Nintendo were basically saying that developer's 360/PS3 games would run on Wii U no problem. That ended up not being the case, mostly due to the CPU. But from the very start, Nintendo pitched it as a small, low power device.

 

[James Scott]

I'll see you in a year when no third party gives a shit about NX.

Well, a lot of 3rd parties cared enough about the 3DS. Probably could just piggie back off of that

 

[Eradicate]

Regarding the NDAs, I think that they likely are more sound, but there's certainly an element of "need to know" basis with Nintendo, for better for worse. I could be off kilter, but it seems like Sony and Microsoft will just up and tell everyone everything, even with their NDAs in place, while Nintendo offers up "just enough" information based on your relationship to them and their own timings. But, I also think no one wants to lose their job anymore in an industry getting ever more competitive, and that notoriety would likely follow them, among other problems.

Alright. Well, then I think we can only assume their Nintendo related business will continue. Again, I don't know exactly what they are supplying Nintendo.

I've been trying to catch up and saw that you posted this about Yashima Denki's Electronic Devices/Components business and how it connects to Nintendo. What a neat find! Essentially are they then like a middleman?

On the main page you linked to (http://www.yashimadenki.co.jp/__en/solution_denshi.php), they list what components they supply AND where they actually come from. Maybe those more in the know with Nintendo's last few hardware suppliers can see if there are any names that regularly pop up in their devices? You mentioned Hitachi, but it's possible there are more.

Just to list them out:

Microcomputers, SRAMs, EEPROMs, general-purpose semiconductors - Renesas Electronic Corporation (from merger between Renesas Technology and NEC)
Liquid Crystal - Japan Display Inc. (from merger between Sony Mobile Display Corporation, Toshiba Mobile Display and Hitachi Displays, Ltd. However, I believe this company is also being merged into Sharp? I remember reading this in some news that was coming out last week regarding the Foxconn buyout.)
Power Semiconductors - Hitachi Power Devices
Batteries - Hitachi Maxell Co., Ltd. and TWS Industrial Ltd.
DRAM - Etron Technology, Inc.
Capacitor - Holy Stone Polytech Co., Ltd
Laser Diodes - Oclaro Japan (from merger between Opnext and Oclaro)
Sensor - Touchence Inc. (Unrelated, but neat!)
Middleware - Data Technology Inc.
Built-In Communication Modules - HMS Industrial Networks

(The link is useful as it provides descriptions and links to each of the named companies.)

 

[Tempy]

Nintendo just has more effective ninjas.

 

[fabricated backlash]

This could very well be my memory playing tricks, but I definitely can't remember any solid leaks regarding the wiimote before its actual unveiling 10+ years ago.
Or at least, nothing that could have made us guess with decent accuracy what the actual controller was going to be.

Mind you, I can perfectly understand why it would be reasonable to keep expectations to a low level due to recent Nintendo mishandlings, but on the other hand I believe there is a chance, albeit small, that a tight NDA might actually be in place preventing any significant information from leaking.

Just my 2c.

I think people misunderstand me. Of course an NDA is the reason for why we haven't heard anything of value, but to asume that this insinuates that there are any games in development is just reaching. Even if Nintendo shopped the NX to 3rd parties and them being under NDA doesn't translate into them actually making anything.

That is if we asume a 2016 launch

 

[10k]

The controller is a holographic display with haptic feedback. That's about all I can think of that's new. What other input methods could there possibility be?

I may be slightly joking but that would be a huge gimmick that would be costly, cool, unique and a very good reason for tight NDA's.

They did IR pointing, motion controls and 3D. VR isn't coming yet.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Touch sensors is where I think they'll go, the patents point towards that. Can do ir+camera based sensors, wheel based sensors, pressure based sensors, capacitive sensors..
I think haptics are likely in some form too.

hey thanks for finding that touchense link Eradicate, I searched yesteday and found nothing! Wii music 2 is going to rock!

possibly more relevant:
http://youtu.be/b68S0d_qZpY

 

[Turrican3]

Even if Nintendo shopped the NX to 3rd parties and them being under NDA doesn't translate into them actually making anything.

This seems fair.

However, you said before:

Again, if anything exciting was brewing you would hear something ny now.

And this is something that I believe *might* fall under NDAs umbrella.
Am I implying Nintendo's got a 10 years exclusive deal with Rockstar for GTA? Obviously not, but saying "no news = nothing exciting is coming" seems quite a leap in logic, or a very pessimistic view to say the least.

 

[fabricated backlash]

This seems fair.

However, you said before:


And this is something that I believe *might* fall under NDAs umbrella.
Am I implying Nintendo's got a 10 years exclusive deal with Rockstar for GTA? Obviously not, but saying "no news = nothing exciting is coming" seems quite a leap in logic, or a very pessimistic view to say the least.

I should have worded that more precise. Nothing exciting coming from 3rd parties.

Again coming from years of 3rd parties openly burning bridges with Nintendo to various industry figures out right laughing when asked if they'd release anything for Nintendo, that is the only safe conclusion to come to.

 

[Eradicate]

Touch sensors is where I think they'll go, the patents point towards that. Can do ir+camera based sensors, wheel based sensors, pressure based sensors, capacitive sensors..
I think haptics are likely in some form too.

hey thanks for finding that touchense link Eradicate, I searched yesteday and found nothing! Wii music 2 is going to rock!

possibly more relevant:
http://youtu.be/b68S0d_qZpY

When the button is squeezed

Didn't expect that! How could something like that be used in a game? Maybe they could even stretch it out a bit for a "touchpad" area on the controller?

I'm imagining if they used this for their analog sticks...could you actually put something inside to interact with? Remember those Atari paddle controllers? What if you could grip something inside and be able to turn it for more precision? I want paddle controllers to come back!

(And I just saw that link one their Japanese site under news. I didn't know what the heck I was looking at until clicking it. I'm glad it turned out more useful in you finding this though!)

 

[DrROBschiz]

Gawd

Please just put a Pro Controller in the box

 

[TheMoon]

Gawd

Please just put a Pro Controller in the box

Nintendo is not gonna put out a PS4.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Nintendo is not gonna put out a PS4.

As long as the standard controls are there and comfortable

I dont care what their "touchpad" rendition is

 

[Bots are better than you]

I should have worded that more precise. Nothing exciting coming from 3rd parties.

Again coming from years of 3rd parties openly burning bridges with Nintendo to various industry figures out right laughing when asked if they'd release anything for Nintendo, that is the only safe conclusion to come to.

Dunno about you, but SQEX fully supporting the platform rumored games like DQ XI, FF 7 Remake and FF XV does sound like an attempt to get at least a wooden, but solid bridge to Nintendo again.

Then, keep in mind, there's currently only 2 companies between the japanese 3rd parties and the ever-growing mobile market, and those are Sony but certainly not Microsoft.
Don't forget, there are 3rd parties, that made decent successful ventures on Nintendo platforms, i'd like to remind you about Monster Hunter, and that sweet "Leave everything localizing and marketing in the west to us"-thing Nintendo does for them.

And about that "Developer laughing on releasing games on Wii U" ... FROM laughed, yes. Namco owns the IP, and if Namco wants a Dark Souls game on a Nintendo platform, it will be on a Nintendo platform ... or any other platform that is.

If porting and/or multiplat-dev isn't hold back by exotic, mediocre hardware and unusable tools, and engine-support is there, then NX (console) will at least get the basic stuff from the big publishers.

Will it get the next Elder Scrolls or Fallout? Don't think so. Will it get AssCreed entries? Pretty sure. FIFA and NFL? Sure, why not, they would get those games on calculators if they could.

 

[KingSnake]

3rd parties relations can't be repaired by Nintendo by just talking to the third parties and providing good development tools. Nintendo needs to be able to sell NX to the people who are buying western 3rd party games, people who are not generally Nintendo fans. And here where it becomes more complicated, because Nintendo needs to overcome two major obstacles: getting them out of their already established communities of friends and having already at or around launch the games that those people like. I think these both are very difficult to achieve without some serious money spent by Nintendo. And it might not even pay off. That's why I doubt Nintendo will try it.

 

[Graphics Horse]

When the button is squeezed

(And I just saw that link one their Japanese site under news. I didn't know what the heck I was looking at until clicking it. I'm glad it turned out more useful in you finding this though!)

Yeah I couldn't get that video from their site to work for some reason so I gave up on it.

Can't think why you couldn't have a rotating one if you really wanted!

 

[10k]

Touch sensors is where I think they'll go, the patents point towards that. Can do ir+camera based sensors, wheel based sensors, pressure based sensors, capacitive sensors..
I think haptics are likely in some form too.

hey thanks for finding that touchense link Eradicate, I searched yesteday and found nothing! Wii music 2 is going to rock!

possibly more relevant:
http://youtu.be/b68S0d_qZpY

Giving those otakus a more immersive feel for their Moe games. Titty simulator.

 

[Übermatik]

Do we think the 'scrolling' shoulder buttons will be a physical mouse-wheel like affair or some kind of touch pad on top of the buttons?

 

[Graphics Horse]

Giving those otakus a more immersive feel for their Moe games. Titty simulator.

Well yeah that would be inevitable.
But if it works as a 3D stick it might be pretty cool.

Do we think the 'scrolling' shoulder buttons will be a physical mouse-wheel like affair or some kind of touch pad on top of the buttons?

I think wheels might be too bulky for handheld. There is a third option involving an image sensor which they had a patent for, it would be able to detect finger position on a strip and possibly at distances too.

 

[Bots are better than you]

3rd parties relations can't be repaired by Nintendo by just talking to the third parties and providing good development tools. Nintendo needs to be able to sell NX to the people who are buying western 3rd party games, people who are not generally Nintendo fans. And here where it becomes more complicated, because Nintendo needs to overcome two major obstacles: getting them out of their already established communities of friends and having already at or around launch the games that those people like. I think these both are very difficult to achieve without some serious money spent by Nintendo. And it might not even pay off. That's why I doubt Nintendo will try it.

Didn't Sony grab a decent chunk of the former X360 userbase, especially in the EU countries? It's not impossible to achieve, as you said, it's difficult.

It looks like Nintendo is trying to shake up the traditional console/hardware cycle, that makes investing in strategies to give consumers an incentive to chose their system and not the other ones, look just conservative enough for them to try.

 

[Neoxon]

3rd parties relations can't be repaired by Nintendo by just talking to the third parties and providing good development tools. Nintendo needs to be able to sell NX to the people who are buying western 3rd party games, people who are not generally Nintendo fans. And here where it becomes more complicated, because Nintendo needs to overcome two major obstacles: getting them out of their already established communities of friends and having already at or around launch the games that those people like. I think these both are very difficult to achieve without some serious money spent by Nintendo. And it might not even pay off. That's why I doubt Nintendo will try it.

You're right, it likely won't pay off in the short-term unless Nintendo pays out the ass for support early on. But in the long-term, if Nintendo focuses on cultivating such a core audience on their own, they may have a strong argument for western third party publishers to eventually come back. I'd be a long road, but it would be worth the effort if they play their cards right.

Didn't Sony grab a decent chunk of the former X360 userbase, especially in the EU countries? It's not impossible to achieve, as you said, it's difficult.

It looks like Nintendo is trying to shake up the traditional console/hardware cycle, that makes investing in strategies to give consumers an incentive to chose their system and not the other ones, look just conservative enough for them to try.

Nintendo's situation is totally different. Not only is it the middle of the generation, but Nintendo has also dug themselves into this hole over the last decade or two.

 

[KingSnake]

Didn't Sony grab a decent chunk of the former X360 userbase, especially in the EU countries? It's not impossible to achieve, as you said, it's difficult.

It looks like Nintendo is trying to shake up the traditional console/hardware cycle, that makes investing in strategies to give consumers an incentive to chose their system and not the other ones, look just conservative enough for them to try.

Yes, but PS4 was guaranteed to have all the game those users are usually playing.

Edit: also what Neoxon said. PS4 took users from a dead console at the end of a generation, now NX needs to take users from two very alive consoles.

 

[Turrican3]

that is the only safe conclusion to come to.

Fair enough.

getting them out of their already established communities of friends

IMHO this is vastly overestimated.
I'm quite convinced people relatively (?) quickly/easily switched from a Sony ecosystem to a MS one back and forth during the last two generational transitions, with the most recent one also having the added psychological barrier of achievements history and a more profoundly tie with network multiplayer (online wasn't really a thing in the PS2 era as we all know).

Of course, it would need some serious HUGE efforts from Nintendo for this to materialize. But it's already happened.

EDIT too slow :-(

 

[KingSnake]

Fair enough.


IMHO this is vastly overestimated.
I'm quite convinced people relatively (?) quickly/easily switched from a Sony ecosystem to a MS one back and forth during the last two generational transitions, with the most recent one also having the added psychological barrier of achievements history and a more profoundly tie with network multiplayer (online wasn't really a thing in the PS2 era as we all know).

Of course, it would need some serious HUGE efforts from Nintendo for this to materialize. But it's already happened.

EDIT too slow :-(

See above. This is not now about picking a new cool system at the end of a generation. There is already a cool new system in town.

Xbox and PS are very much considered to be two similar ecosystems, it's not that difficult to move between them. Nintendo is since 10 years an outsider for this market. It needs a lot of effort to become the cool kid when you spent do much time alone on a side.

 

[Bots are better than you]

Yes, but PS4 was guaranteed to have all the game those users are usually playing.

Edit: also what Neoxon said. PS4 took users from a dead console at the end of a generation, now NX needs to take users from two very alive consoles.

Soooo ... Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, FIFA/NFL and Minecraft? Getting these games back on their system is not that hard ... it just doesn't have to make porting a chore.

Nintendo's situation is totally different. Not only is it the middle of the generation, but Nintendo has also dug themselves into this hole over the last decade or two.

See EA, they once stated that the console cycle doesn't affect them in their business plans.

Userbase grows with games, and if publishers have an agnostic stance on console cylces or rather, their own cycle, i can't see a "mid-gen" launch having negative impact on the system.

Again, this patent on systems being less dependent on hardware could very well mean that they're trying to shake up console cycles as they are.

 

[TheMoon]

As long as the standard controls are there and comfortable

I dont care what their "touchpad" rendition is

Well, Wii U covered that base already.

 

[Eradicate]

Do we think the 'scrolling' shoulder buttons will be a physical mouse-wheel like affair or some kind of touch pad on top of the buttons?

I got beat to the punch, but, it seems there are two camps still on that with pros and cons for each (physical and IR). Physical wheels could get dirty (a problem with portables especially) though they are more analog. Some were considering IR-based, which is an interesting solution since it also gives them a lot of new input directions as well. I never really thought about a touchpad...thinking on that video with the 3D stick that Graphics Horse found, maybe you could put a membrane over the physical wheels? You could get the touch, the wheels, possibly some button combinations (press wheel down, click wheel laterally up/down, etc.).

I can see this being a really cool stick to include on a controller, regardless. That free-form display patent showed two sticks with no physical buttons. With two of these (possible paddle control included...I'll never give up hope), you could really do a lot. And since it's so digital, you could, say, "lock" one to just cardinal directions and the other to analog on a game-by-game basis. I'm also wondering if they couldn't have three on the face. Say, two "big" ones that are normally placed as would be any dual analog controller, but then a smaller one off the right stick (kind of like the C stick). Your right hand would then have the options for A and B (since they register button presses), but also a whole lot more since they could register directions, squeezes, etc. too.

Giving those otakus a more immersive feel for their Moe games. Titty simulator.

Who am I kidding, it'll be for this.

 

[Übermatik]

Well yeah that would be inevitable.
But if it works as a 3D stick it might be pretty cool.


I think wheels might be too bulky for handheld. There is a third option involving an image sensor which they had a patent for, it would be able to detect finger position on a strip and possibly at distances too.

Hm interesting. I'm guessing an image sensor would be unnecessary cost wise though, no? They could get similar results from a simple touchpad on top of analogue clickable buttons like the Gamecube's.

I got beat to the punch, but, it seems there are two camps still on that with pros and cons for each (physical and IR). Physical wheels could get dirty (a problem with portables especially) though they are more analog. Some were considering IR-based, which is an interesting solution since it also gives them a lot of new input directions as well. I never really thought about a touchpad...thinking on that video with the 3D stick that Graphics Horse found, maybe you could put a membrane over the physical wheels? You could get the touch, the wheels, possibly some button combinations (press wheel down, click wheel laterally up/down, etc.).

I can see this being a really cool stick to include on a controller, regardless. That free-form display patent showed two sticks with no physical buttons. With two of these (possible paddle control included...I'll never give up hope), you could really do a lot. And since it's so digital, you could, say, "lock" one to just cardinal directions and the other to analog on a game-by-game basis. I'm also wondering if they couldn't have three on the face. Say, two "big" ones that are normally placed as would be any dual analog controller, but then a smaller one off the right stick (kind of like the C stick). Your right hand would then have the options for A and B (since they register button presses), but also a whole lot more since they could register directions, squeezes, etc. too.

Ah okay. One thing about non-physical/analogue scrolling shoulder buttons is the risk of accidental input. I could see people getting frustrated with scrolling when they don't intend to without some sort of tactile response. That said, analogue wheels would be bulky and almost harder to implement as mentioned.

 

[KingSnake]

Soooo ... Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, FIFA/NFL and Minecraft? Getting these games back on their system is not that hard ... it just doesn't have to make porting a chore.

It also needs EA, Activision and 2k to be willing to take the risk to invest in those ports without really knowing if it will pay off.

 

[Graphics Horse]

The right hand would then have the options for A and B (since they register button presses), but also a whole lot more since they could register directions, squeezes, etc. too.

Tbh I think if they went for the patent style display with these stick things and no buttons they might label the right side one 'A' and the left side one 'B'!

 

[MK_768]

Yes, but PS4 was guaranteed to have all the game those users are usually playing.

Edit: also what Neoxon said. PS4 took users from a dead console at the end of a generation, now NX needs to take users from two very alive consoles.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of people who will be willing to double dip into the NX even if they have the PS4/XB1.

There are also tens of millions of gamers/people who haven't jumped into this gen yet.

If Nintendo corrects their messaging and marketing mistakes from the Wii U and actually deliver a robust launch window of games they could do very well.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Hm interesting. I'm guessing an image sensor would be unnecessary cost wise though, no? They could get similar results from a simple touchpad on top of analogue clickable buttons like the Gamecube's.

Not really, I think simple image sensors can be pretty cheap, I don't know about these ones exactly but a mouse wheel itself would need a simple internal optical sensor to measure rotation, at least the one in the patent gave an example like that.
Those kind have been common for decades though, used in ball mice too, but aren't image sensors.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Well, Wii U covered that base already.

I cant imagine the next thing will take up as much of "the cost of the system" as that tablet did

Whatever the new "hook" is

 

[Incitemaybe]

Gawd

Please just put a Pro Controller in the box

Gross.

Please do something new!

 

[Boogdud]

possibly more relevant:
http://youtu.be/b68S0d_qZpY

It's just terrible enough looking to make me believe Nintendo would use it. Have they learned nothing from the 3ds slider and nub? We'll seeeeeee

They've been rolling for what 12 years of gimmick driven hardware? I was hoping this generation would bring them back to a more 'standard' hardware lineup and focus on games. The more I hear about the NX the more I become cautiously-pessimistic...

Gross.

Please do something new!

How about something new like, making hardware that 3rd parties will want to make software for?

 

[DrROBschiz]

Gross.

Please do something new!

I thought we were past this

Innovate on the software end. Why keep trying to reinvent what isnt broken

We did this dance for 2 generations already

 

[MK_768]

How about something new like, making hardware that 3rd parties will want to make software for?

And how do they separate themselves from the XB1 and PS4?

 

[Taker666]

Do we think the 'scrolling' shoulder buttons will be a physical mouse-wheel like affair or some kind of touch pad on top of the buttons?

Hard to say. The patent had multiple options..but then it was also talking about the wheels being motorised and allowing force feedback/haptics (which would be trickier if it was just a touch pad).

The bonus of motorised scroll wheels (which could give some resistance/recenter)...is they could be the best way to replicate analogue triggers on a handheld.

 

[wonderful103]

I thought we were past this

Innovate on the software end. Why keep trying to reinvent what isnt broken

We did this dance for 2 generations already

Hardware and software innovation can and usually do go hand in hand.

 

[DrROBschiz]

And how do they separate themselves from the XB1 and PS4?

Software

Actually having a portable system?

(There wont be a Vita successor.... )

 

[Kissenkopf]

Hardware and software innovation can and usually do go hand in hand.

Usually? I doubt you can find many examples in the console sector.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Hard to say. The patent had multiple options..but then it was also talking about the wheels being motorised and allowing force feedback/haptics (which would be trickier if it was just a touch pad).

The bonus of motorised scroll wheels (which could give some resistance/recenter)...is they could be the best way to replicate analogue triggers on a handheld.

You can do that with springs too if you don't let them rotate 360 and instead just a small arc. I have an old camera with that kind of a switch on it for zooming in and out. Just a 1D analog stick basically.

 

[wonderful103]

Usually? I doubt you can find many examples in the console sector.

The 8th gen

 

[Boogdud]

And how do they separate themselves from the XB1 and PS4?

See the post above you.. (do innovative things with software). Also, personally, I believe Nintendo has a quality reputation higher than the competitors that would help. Their software has near universal appeal, their hardware gimmicks do not.

 

[MK_768]

Software

Actually having a portable system?

(There wont be a Vita successor.... )

Fair enough.

I think I'm in the boat of Nintendo doing new things with the hardware but in a way that makes sense.

I thought the motion control for the Wii was good, but the system was underpowered so 3rd party multiplatform games were destined to fail. The Wii U tablet was just an ill-conceived idea. Just seemed like Nintendo was jumping into the tablet craze and the execution was poor. Also, the system was underpowered and porting games were a waste of time and money.

Nintendo can do well on "different hardware." Although they are more likely to succeed in the handheld market since they own it lol.

 

[Kissenkopf]

The 8th gen

Lol? Okay. Thanks.