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[anothertech]

Wow after reading all that, we really know nothing do we.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

What GAF insider rumors?

The NDAs have NDAs.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Ok, now it's much clearer. Thanks.

Seems interesting. I just hope they can make the console significantly more powerful than the PS4, but that's just wishfull thinking. we'll be lucky to get something as powerful as the XONE.

The most interesting thing is the statement about absorbing the Wii U architecture. They're not going PPC again, as that's a dead route, and the only thing that'd give them enough power to handle BC for that would be x86. I don't think they'd go Intel, so probably AMD. But what then happens with the handheld? I'd assume that'd have to be x86 too, but I'm not sure amd has anything at such a low wattage anymore.

 

[EDarkness]

I'm all for a unified architecture, but if some games can only be played on one device, then I'll be pretty unhappy. For me, it's an all or nothing thing. I don't want to be worried about whether or not a game can be played on the handheld or only on the console. It's one of the things about the iPhone and iPad that I don't like.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Yeah, this seems like a good thread in which to point out that Iwata never said that NX was "not a hybrid." When he was asked point-blank about this, he said (as quoted, but not emphasized, in the OP):

"Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. ... Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment."

This is a brilliant piece of deflection that succeeds at not actually answering the question, while making it seem as if the question has been answered, but leaving all of your options open.

Note that he didn't respond with a rundown of the pros and cons here of leaving "portable" and "home" as separate machines versus combining them, but shifted to talking about "form factors" in the sense that Apple has iPads of multiple sizes and powers. Nintendo could release an NX that (I am spitballing here) is a tablet that docks with your TV, but then release said tablet in multiple form factors a la iPad, and this would be totally accurate.

And then to top it all off, Iwata closes by saying, hey, maybe we WILL only have one device if that's what consumers want.

I'm not saying it's definitely a hybrid, but this statement is held up as prima facie evidence that there is a "home NX" and a "portable NX" and never the twain shall meet, which is certainly also possible, but this does not prove it.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Yeah, this seems like a good thread in which to point out that Iwata never said that NX was "not a hybrid." When he was asked point-blank about this, he said (as quoted, but not emphasized, in the OP):

"Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. ... Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment."

This is a brilliant piece of deflection that succeeds at not actually answering the question, while making it seem as if the question has been answered, but leaving all of your options open.

Note that he didn't respond with a rundown of the pros and cons here of leaving "portable" and "home" as separate machines versus combining them, but shifted to talking about "form factors" in the sense that Apple has iPads of multiple sizes and powers. Nintendo could release an NX that (I am spitballing here) is a tablet that docks with your TV, but then release said tablet in multiple form factors a la iPad, and this would be totally accurate.

And then to top it all off, Iwata closes by saying, hey, maybe we WILL only have one device if that's what consumers want.

I'm not saying it's definitely a hybrid, but this statement is held up as prima facie evidence that there is a "home NX" and a "portable NX" and never the twain shall meet, which is certainly also possible, but this does not prove it.

I took it more to mean that they might converge the gen afterwards. They need a 3DS replacement sometime in the next couple of years, and a Wii U replacement now, so I don't see the hybrid being what we get with NX.

 

[Deku89]

I think this is the biggest confusion between the NX not being a hybrid system.

Hybrid System: The system has a controller that is able to play games away from the console. Think of the Wii U gamepad that can download games for on the go. Games would be required to have a low-res version. Nintendo has repeatedly said they aren't doing this.

Shared Library: Still have a handheld and console, but they largely share the same games. Consoles will be able to play all games (but some will look horrible on a TV screen; think of playing phone games on a tablet) and handheld will be restricted to the amount of power required set by the developer (which can be overcome with the SDC, but that's not guaranteed to happen). Still two systems with different purposes, but able to play many of the same games.

I personally think they want to set up a way so it's easy to get mobile games on the platform (maybe make a deal with Google to get Google Play or something like that), while making sure it's powerful enough in case 3rd parties will be able to come back if they want.

 

[Neoxon]

The NDAs have NDAs.

There were actually a few others, namely the next handheld having a resolution that's "higher than you'd expect, lower than you'd hope" & Matt saying that Nintendo's ditching the Wii brand.

Either way, glad I was able to help. The thread came out beautifully.

 

[Kobun Heat]

They need a 3DS replacement sometime in the next couple of years...

Except Nintendo is, without question, explicitly saying that the two-platform dichotomy needs to go away, based on the expense and talent drain of having to create game libraries for two incompatible platforms. It certainly doesn't want to be cranking out 3DS games to sustain that platform for another "couple of years." It wants very much to move on from 3DS as soon as possible.

Nintendo has repeatedly said they aren't doing this.

Disagree.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Great thread, thanks for the effort.

Cant wait for NX.

 

[Neoxon]

Disagree.

It's even in the OP. It was pretty much Iwata saying that such a single-device hybrid wasn't in their cards right now (this is especially so in the first quote), but could be if the market calls for one. They probably were in the planning stages of the NX Platform at the time of those quotes.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

Here's what we know about the NX:









That about sums it up.

 

[Neoxon]

My concern is this whole merging handheld and console into one system. I fear that it will be a jack of all trades, master of none. As a console, it wouldn't be too powerfull otherwise it would be too expensive/have crappy battery life while in handheld mode, and vice versa as a handheld.

Read the OP, that's not what they're planning on doing.

 

[Kobun Heat]

It's even in the OP.

I do not think that the quote in the OP says what you think it says, as I said above.

 

[Neoxon]

I do not think that the quote in the OP says what you think it says, as I said above.

The keyword is "in the future", as in it's not in their plans at the moment. This quote in particular makes it pretty damn clear that a hybrid isn't in their plans right now.

What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine.

 

[Kobun Heat]

The keyword is "in the future", as in it's not in their plans at the moment.

I mean, we're both reading the same thread, but I guess I can quote myself?

Nintendo could release an NX that (I am spitballing here) is a tablet that docks with your TV, but then release said tablet in multiple form factors a la iPad, and this would be totally accurate.

 

[HowlTowers]

My guess is that the NX console+handheld will have a relationship very similar to that of the PS4 and the Vita. I feel that the NX console will have its exclusives and the handheld would have its own but many games would be crossbuy.

This handheld would also act like a controller similar to the gamepad except that you wouldn't have to be in the vicinity of the main console. As much as I enjoyed the dual screen abilities of the ds and 3ds, I rarely ever saw myself using both screens at once. Most games could have fit everything into one screen. The second one served mainly as a map or an inventory which would force me to stop using the top screen and focus on the second, so I was still only using one screen.

Therefore I think this next handheld will simply be a one screen machine like the Vita/Gamepad and simply allow you to use it as a controller option when playing the home console.

 

[Neoxon]

I mean, we're both reading the same thread, but I guess I can quote myself?

But the point is that, as referenced in the quote mentioned, it's not in their plans at the current time. That doesn't rule out a separate hybrid form factor in the future, like you said, but that depends on if the market calls for one.

 

[-Horizon-]

"industry leading chips"
lol I just know this phrase is gonna come back to haunt us all mostly by drive by trolls

 

[Kobun Heat]

But the point is that, as referenced in the quote mentioned, it's not in their plans at the current time.

...to not have a single *form factor*, in the sense that the 3DS currently has three *form factors*. One or more of NX's various *form factors* could be used as both portable and home game machines, and this would still be accurate.

 

[otakukidd]

...to not have a single *form factor*, in the sense that the 3DS currently has three *form factors*. One or more of NX's various *form factors* could be used as both portable and home game machines, and this would still be accurate.

Why would they try to sell a console and portable when they sell one that does both.

 

[Neoxon]

Why would they try to sell a console and portable when they sell one that does both.

Because if they sell one that does both, you either end up with an underpowered console or an overpowered handheld with shit battery. It's just not viable right now. Plus certain form factors are popular in certain regions. Consoles are bigger in the West, while Japan prefers their handhelds (though the West doesn't mind handhelds).

 

[blu]

Nintendo are absolutely watertight this time around.

 

[-Horizon-]

Nintendo are absolutely watertight this time around.

NX waterproof confirmed

 

[otakukidd]

Because if they sell one that does both, you either end up with an underpowered console or an overpowered handheld with shit battery. It's just not viable right now. Plus certain form factors are popular in certain regions. Consoles are bigger in the West, while Japan prefers their handhelds (though the West doesn't mind handhelds).

Sorry I totally messed up what I was trying to say. Why would they sell one that does both and just a console and just a portable. You can't do all 3 cause the one that does both would be the only one selling. Closest thing I think they would do is do a console and a portable but the portable has a video out and is compatible with controllers that you have to buy separately.

 

[Peltz]

Nintendo are absolutely watertight this time around.

It's remarkable that there haven't been any leaks. We got leaks on the Wii U and 3DS from what I remember.

 

[DrROBschiz]

It's remarkable that there haven't been any leaks. We got leaks on the Wii U and 3DS from what I remember.

Yeah its pretty amazing considering the rumors abput how close this thing is to being on shelves

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Wow after reading all that, we really know nothing do we.

We've never known anything.

Even when Nintendo tells us vague things, we know nothing.

People think they have a good idea what it is from patents, Investor meetings, etc... but there will be surprise when it's officially uinveiled just as always.

It's the modern-day Nintendo way.

 

[Steve McQueen]

Excellent job. Gonna keep my eyes on this one.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Nintendo are absolutely watertight this time around.

They were just as watertight with the Wii - until the controller was announced, *nobody* had any idea about it. All we knew was that there was something special about the controls. There was so much speculation about what they could be it was insane - I particularly like idea that the controller could control its temperature, get hot or cold depending on the game situation. Wii U it all leaked early because people found references and assets regarding Project Cafe on Nintendo's Warioworld developer website.

 

[abstract alien]

Thank you so much for this. Most(maybe all) of the recent NX threads have been filled with nothing but junk from the OP down, so this was needed. Great work.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Good stuff, great to have this all in one place!

If you wouldn't mind adding it to the OP there's this Miyamoto quote here:

What I can say is, certainly, within Nintendo the fact that our development environment for our home console is different from the development environment for our portable system is certainly an area of stress or challenge for the development teams. So as we move forward, we're going to look at what we can do to unify the two development environments.

So, particularly with digital downloads now and the idea that you're downloading the right to play a game, that opens up the ability to have multiple platform digital downloads where you can download on one and download on another. Certainly from a development standpoint there is some challenge to it, because if you have two devices that have different specs and you're being told to design in a way that the game runs on both devices, then that can be challenging for the developer—but if you have a more unified development environment and you're able to make one game that runs on both systems instead of having to make a game for each system, that's an area of opportunity for us.

 

[HerroRygar]

Excellent thread, thanks. What concerns me about this unified development is that we will end up with dumbed down, lowest common denominator designs. Products and services that have to be simplified so it can fit into this blinkered, short sighted view of what hand held gaming is, and can be. Everything changes too fast for a home console to be handicapped in this way.

I had a good laugh at the assertion that Nintendo will be working to avoid software droughts. The fact that they're looking at porting software from handheld to fill gaps in the console schedule strikes me as potentially cannibalistic. Though Monster Hunter 3 worked out great, right?

Potential for region free is a pleasant surprise.

That's a reasonable concern, but here's a more optimistic interpretation: in the Apple ecosystem, certain apps (notably high performance games) are restricted to late-model devices, or devices with larger screens. However, the entire ecosystem of regular apps is available across all devices. So if I buy a powerful, large, new device, then I can play both the device-specific games AND the platform games.

I can really imagine this working for, say, a NSMB. If the handheld specs are strong enough, then the game will look great on a handheld or a TV, and can be enjoyed across both.

I hadn't considered this before, but reading ALL of that.

It feels like we're getting a streaming service.

That can't be possible though...they don't have the infrastructure...right.

Netflix doesn't have the infrastructure to run a global video-stream service, that's why they're implemented on top of Amazon Web Services. Cloud providers (Amazon, Google, Microsoft, various others) have reached a level of sophistication that you can run massive, global businesses on them. Not suggesting that this is what they're doing, per se, merely noting that not having the infrastructure themselves doesn't rule this possibility out.

 

[Dreamwriter]

"industry leading chips"
lol I just know this phrase is gonna come back to haunt us all mostly by drive by trolls

I'm expecting Doritos

 

[LegendofLex]

The most interesting thing is the statement about absorbing the Wii U architecture. They're not going PPC again, as that's a dead route, and the only thing that'd give them enough power to handle BC for that would be x86. I don't think they'd go Intel, so probably AMD. But what then happens with the handheld? I'd assume that'd have to be x86 too, but I'm not sure amd has anything at such a low wattage anymore.

You use it to play NX games and Virtual Console games, as the GamePad for your Wii U games, and to stream games it can't handle on its own over the Internet from the console?

 

[watershed]

Good OP. Best to avoid all the unsubstantiated rumors and patent reading. I'm hopeful on the NX and Nintendo Account or whatever it's going to be called.

 

[Neoxon]

The most interesting thing is the statement about absorbing the Wii U architecture. They're not going PPC again, as that's a dead route, and the only thing that'd give them enough power to handle BC for that would be x86. I don't think they'd go Intel, so probably AMD. But what then happens with the handheld? I'd assume that'd have to be x86 too, but I'm not sure amd has anything at such a low wattage anymore.

That's why I don't think Nintendo's gonna go x86. ARM seems much more likely since it scales up better than x86 scales down.

 

[gingerbeardman]

That's why I don't think Nintendo's gonna go x86. ARM seems much more likely since it scales up better than x86 scales down.

I think they'll go ARM too. If it's good enough for Apple it's good enough for Nintendo.

It's the only reasonable option if handheld is in the equation.

 

[Neoxon]

I think they'll go ARM too. If it's good enough for Apple it's good enough for Nintendo.

It's the only reasonable option if handheld is in the equation.

Exactly. I know there's an x86 Android phone in existence, but I think Intel subsidized most of the costs for that phone. Not to mention the fact that, to my knowledge, they had to dim the brightness across the board just to get a decent battery life.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Nintendo is also used-to using ARM, they've used ARM CPUs quite a bit

 

[Mentallyerect]

This whole "Apple/Android" approach has me thinking that starting with NX and going forward, backwards compatibility will be standard. Basically when the NX2 comes out in another 6-7 years, all the previous NX games will be able to run on it. Similar to when you purchase a new Iphone or IPhad, you can still play the older games released years prior.

Is this possible with a unified approach or is the home console scene a totally different beast to where this is not possible?

 

[Neoxon]

Nintendo is also used-to using ARM, they've used ARM CPUs quite a bit

Hence my point.

This whole "Apple/Android" approach has me thinking that starting with NX and going forward, backwards compatibility will be standard. Basically when the NX2 comes out in another 6-7 years, all the previous NX games will be able to run on it. Similar to when you purchase a new Iphone or IPhad, you can still play the older games released years prior.

Is this possible with a unified approach or is the home console scene a totally different beast to where this is not possible?

They could always do hardware refreshes every 2-3 years with the promise of each device being supported for at least 5 years.

 

[Lynd7]

This whole "Apple/Android" approach has me thinking that starting with NX and going forward, backwards compatibility will be standard. Basically when the NX2 comes out in another 6-7 years, all the previous NX games will be able to run on it. Similar to when you purchase a new Iphone or IPhad, you can still play the older games released years prior.

Is this possible with a unified approach or is the home console scene a totally different beast to where this is not possible?

I think this is definitely possible, they want something like iOS. I think it's possible that they could put out quicker revisions too. Dismantle the status quo of generations and never go back to rebuilding the userbase from the ground floor all the time.

 

[Hilarion]

Hence my point.


They could always do hardware refreshes every 2-3 years with the promise of each device being supported for at least 5 years.

This seems like a natural idea to me. Something like this:

NX Handheld 1 and NX Console 1 come out in 2016. NX Handheld 2 and NX Console 2 come out in 2019, but are backwards compatible and NX 1s are forwards compatible one generation (Maybe NX Console 1 can run NX Console 2 games at 720/30 FPS while they're 1080/60 on the NX 2 with additional bells and whistles). NX Handheld 3 and NX Console 3 come out in 2022 and NX 1 no longer has forwards compatibility, but 3 maintains backwards compatibility all the way back.

Basically, a 3 year cycle with every system guaranteed support for two cycles. It would break the traditional console cycle without forcing customers into an Apple-like buying a new phone every two years scenario and giving them long enough to make them feel their purchase was worthwhile.

EDIT: Unrelated, but the "Wii U architecture absorption" quote makes me think that most of the WiiU Eshop titles (including WiiU retail game downloads?) will work on the NX even if there isn't disc backwards compatibility. Starting with the full Wii U VC and indie game eshop and Wii U retail titles would be a fantastic starting library for the console given how few people bought the Wii U, and if they could get back Turbografx/Genesis/NeoGeo VC support like the Wii eShop had that'd be an even more fantastic starting library. If the console has a satisfactory amount of storage space, Saturn/Dreamcast and (of course) Gamecube VC would be appreciated as well.

Alternately/in addition, if they get Google Play support with some sort of easy way original game developers could code in controller support, they could have the best version of popular mobile games on the NX Handheld and Console right out of the gate. Think of all those poor bastards getting those Square Enix/Capcom/Sega titles on the Play store and struggling to use a touchscreen to play something like a Megaman game. Even Bioshock randomly has a mobile version and it's probably borderline unplayable because it's a touchscreen.

 

[Datschge]

"Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. ... Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment."

This is a brilliant piece of deflection that succeeds at not actually answering the question, while making it seem as if the question has been answered, but leaving all of your options open.

Nintendo's biggest issue as mentioned by Iwata in that particular quote (cut above) is supporting more than one platform without running into resource issues. But they need to support at least home consoles and handhelds since the former is the main market in the West and the latter the main market in Japan. I expect NX to solve this from both sides, the development environment is being unified so resources can be used on both form factors, and NX can be released in the form factor the market is asking for, i.e. NX home console in the West and NX handheld in Japan.

 

[Neoxon]

Nintendo's biggest issue as mentioned by Iwata in that particular quote (cut above) is supporting more than one platform without running into resource issues. But they need to support at least home consoles and handhelds since the former is the main market in the West and the latter the main market in Japan. I expect NX to solve this from both sides, the development environment is being unified so resources can be used on both form factors, and NX can be released in the form factor the market is asking for, i.e. NX home console in the West and NX handheld in Japan.

But they'll probably release both everywhere regardless since there definitely is a handheld market in the West (if the 3DS is any indication) while Japan still has some interest in Nintendo consoles.

 

[Father_Brain]

Nintendo's biggest issue as mentioned by Iwata in that particular quote (cut above) is supporting more than one platform without running into resource issues. But they need to support at least home consoles and handhelds since the former is the main market in the West and the latter the main market in Japan. I expect NX to solve this from both sides, the development environment is being unified so resources can be used on both form factors, and NX can be released in the form factor the market is asking for, i.e. NX home console in the West and NX handheld in Japan.

If Wii U is any indication (and I think it is), the market isn't asking for a new Nintendo home console anywhere.

 

[Datschge]

But they'll probably release both everywhere regardless since there definitely is a handheld market in the West (if the 3DS is any indication) while Japan still has some interest in Nintendo consoles.

They'll eventually do that, but I think the release timing will fully depend on what first impression marketing wants to cause. Releasing both form factors at once in the West will instantly earn the system a "weak power" power image, after all "the console can't possibly pack that much power if it's also available in handheld form". Likewise in Japan it may be better to start with the handheld as that's the market where Nintendo actually is dominating and has relatively good third party support. Nintendo's main interest will be to sell as many consoles as possible in the West and as many handheld as possible in Japan.

 

[blu]

I'll just drop that here, for future 'how fast can ARM be anyway' references:

Blu's "let's benchmark something quickly" Benchmark - 4x4 fp32 matrix multiplication on a bunch of architectures. All numbers are in flops/clock per one physical core (while running the test on all cores to counter turbo-boost et al). State-of-the-art compiler techniques have been used to achieve maximum performance. Where the compiler has left me no choice I've reverted to inline assembly.

| CPU                   | N-way SIMD ALUs  | flops/clock | remarks                                        |
|-----------------------|------------------|-------------|------------------------------------------------|
| IBM PowerPC 750CL     | 2-way            | 1.51        | g++ 4.6, paired-singles via autovectorization  |
| AMD Bobcat            | 2-way            | 1.47        | clang++ 3.4, SSE2 via intrinsics               |
| Intel Sandy Bridge    | 8-way            | 9.04        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 via generic vectors        |
| Intel Ivy Bridge      | 8-way            | 9.09        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 via generic vectors        |
| Intel Haswell         | 8-way            | 9.56        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 + FMA3 via generic vectors |
| Intel Xeon Phi (KNC)  | 16-way           | 6.62        | icpc 14.0.4, MIC via intrinsics                |
| iMX53 Cortex-A8       | 2-way            | 2.23        | clang++ 3.5, NEON via inline asm               |
| RK3368 Cortex-A53     | 2-way            | 2.40        | clang++ 3.5, A32* NEON via inline asm          |
| AppliedMicro X-Gene 1 | 2-way            | 2.71        | clang++ 3.5, A64 NEON via generic vectors      |
| Apple A7              | 4-way            | 11.07       | apple clang++ 7.0.0, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |
| Apple A8              | 4-way            | 12.19       | apple clang++ 7.0.0, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |
| Apple A9              | 4-way            | 16.79       | apple clang++ 7.x.x, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |

* A32 in aarch64; i.e. ARMv8 running 32-bit code

bonus material:
A brainfuck interpreter executing a mandelbrot routine.

| CPU                         | compiler      | ticks*  |
|-----------------------------|---------------|---------|
| AMD Bobcat                  | g++-4.6.4     | 47.49   |
| iMX53 Cortex-A8             | g++-4.9.2     | 55.67   |
| Intel Ivy Bridge            | g++-4.8.2     | 27.42   |
| AppliedMicro X-Gene 1       | g++-4.9.1     | 47.06   |
| RK3368 Cortex-A53 (A32)     | g++-4.9.3     | 49.26   |

* duration x CPU_GHz

 

[Neoxon]

They'll eventually do that, but I think the release timing will fully depend on what first impression marketing wants to cause. Releasing both form factors at once in the West will instantly earn the system a "weak power" power image, after all "the console can't possibly pack that much power if it's also available in handheld form". Likewise in Japan it may be better to start with the handheld as that's the market where Nintendo actually is dominating and has relatively good third party support. Nintendo's main interest will be to sell as many consoles as possible in the West and as many handheld as possible in Japan.

I wouldn't say release them all at once, but rather release the form factor that's more popular in a specific region first, then release the other form factor not too long afterwards.