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[Datschge]

If Wii U is any indication (and I think it is), the market isn't asking for a new Nintendo home console anywhere.

Wii U suffers on lack of support that could satisfy any form of demand. If Nintendo can get the usual Japanese handheld support, now with the added bonus of making it an easy sell on console internationally, the NX home console will get more support through that. And Nintendo's repeating issue in the past has been ensuring a steady stream of software on all their platforms.

On this topic there's this fitting quote by Iwata (Source):

Our output speed is, of course, important. At the same time, we believe that maintaining the active use rate of our platform carries the same level of importance. I think you can relate when I say, when we keep touching a video game system, we tend to look for the next software we want to play. As a result, it becomes easier for consumers to purchase their next games. On the other hand, if the game system is out of our daily routine, we tend to lose interest, making it less probable that a new game will come to light. When we look back at previous hardware that did not succeed, they always failed to maintain the active use rate. On the contrary, the platforms that sold a lot established their respective positions in the market not because they had a lot of games – many games were offered for the hardware as a result of the hardware selling well and it establishing itself as a lucrative platform for publishers to sell their software on. We believe that the real key is whether the hardware is able to maintain the active use rate.

 

[Vena]

I'll just drop that here, for future 'how fast can ARM be anyway' references:

Blu's "let's benchmark something quickly" Benchmark - 4x4 fp32 matrix multiplication on a bunch of architectures. All numbers are in flops/clock per one physical core (while running the test on all cores to counter turbo-boost et al). State-of-the-art compiler techniques have been used to achieve maximum performance. Where the compiler has left me no choice I've reverted to inline assembly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
| CPU                   | N-way SIMD ALUs  | flops/clock | remarks                                        |     
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
| AMD Bobcat            | 2-way            | 1.41        | clang++ 3.5, SSE2 via generic vectors          |     
| Intel Sandy Bridge    | 8-way            | 9.03        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 via generic vectors        |     
| Intel Ivy Bridge      | 8-way            | 9.09        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 via generic vectors        |     
| Intel Haswell         | 8-way            | 9.56        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 + FMA3 via generic vectors |     
| Intel Xeon Phi (KNC)  | 16-way           | 6.62        | icpc 14.0.4, MIC via intrinsics                |     
| iMX53 Cortex A8       | 2-way            | 2.23        | clang++ 3.5, NEON via inline asm               |     
| RK3368 Cortex A53     | 2-way            | 2.40        | clang++ 3.5, A32* NEON via inline asm          |     
| APM X-Gene 1          | 2-way            | 2.71        | clang++ 3.5, A64 NEON via generic vectors      |     
| Apple A7              | 4-way            | 11.07       | apple clang++ 7.0.0, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |     
| Apple A8              | 4-way            | 12.19       | apple clang++ 7.0.0, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |     
| Apple A9              | 4-way            | 16.xx*      | apple clang++ 7.x.x, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |     
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------     

* A32 in aarch64; i.e. ARMv8 running 32-bit code    
** don't have my notes ATM, so number is from memory

Those Bobcat results make me cry. How far is the Jaguar from that performance?

 

[DavidDesu]

I hope they really do create some kind of Nintendo OS platform as is hinted here. Something akin to iOS or Android. A multitude of devices, like with iPhones and iPads, with different processors, different amounts of RAM, different screen resolutions, but fundamentally it is relatively easy/comes as standard the ability to make a game once, do some optimising for one platform or another, and just see it working on all the devices. Backwards and forwards compatibility is effectively built in, at least for a span of 3 or so generations of the devices.

If they do this, have a good handheld, a decent console... they might have a chance.

I still would love them to have a console that doesn't immediately feel inferior, or even on the same level, as current gen. Would love to see them really go beyond that but seems highly unlikely.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

The parts about industry leading chips and the criticism about Wii U not being on par with the competition is what I like mostly about that list. Going by that, it should mean it will be on par with the current systems or better. But yeah.... We'll see.

 

[blu]

Those Bobcat results make me cry. How far is the Jaguar from that performance?

I don't have all my notes from that test (I should really collect all results in a single table one day), but the Bobcat used to go a bit higher with an older clang (compiler bitrot, etc) - 1.47 flops/clock, which was still below ppc750cl's result, to put it in 'gekko has no simd' perspective.

edit: ok, found some of my old notes, table updated.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I'd really like to see how Nintendo can counter the rapidly shrinking handheld market and their declining console business, simultaneously. They've shipped at least 60M 3DS and 12M WiiU. I wonder could a single platform in 2016s/2017s climate even get close?

 

[Hero of Legend]

Thanks so much everyone! I truly appreciate it! Remember Neoxon also helped gather some of the stuff as I note in the OP.

A couple other articles... one from Fortune published June 23, 2015



Nintendo talked about the NX with 3rd party partners at E3 2015 (some of them for the first time), and the reception was positive.



This interview with Kimishima from Time Magazine published on Dec 3, 2015

Good stuff, great to have this all in one place!

If you wouldn't mind adding it to the OP there's this Miyamoto quote here:

These seem good to add, thanks! I'll do that unless anyone objects? Neat to see some agree that I made the right call about leaving out the rumors and patents.

 

[Neoxon]

Thanks so much everyone! I truly appreciate it! Remember Neoxon also helped gather some of the stuff as I note in the OP.





These seem good to add, thanks! I'll do that unless anyone objects? Neat to see some agree that I made the right call about leaving out the rumors and patents.

Thanks for the extra shout-out. I was just happy to help.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Thanks for the extra shout-out. I was just happy to help.

Thank you again! No problem at all!

AND, I added Topics 12-17 at the bottom of the OP! Thanks to both Toadthemushroom and thefro for finding those points, I very much appreciate it and you are credited also!

 

[Hero of Legend]

Wow, this thread just died for some reason. And right after adding more to the OP also.

 

[abstract alien]

This thread isn't dead, it's just not reliant on useless information like "post what you think NX launch titles will play like" bullshit.

 

[ReyVGM]

Yeah, speculative threads based on facts don't gather as much attention as speculative threads based on wishful thinking.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I'd really like to see how Nintendo can counter the rapidly shrinking handheld market and their declining console business, simultaneously. They've shipped at least 60M 3DS and 12M WiiU. I wonder could a single platform in 2016s/2017s climate even get close?

It's not going to be a single platform, Iwata said they wouldn't do a single platform - he said if anything, there might be more platforms than there were in the past.

 

[Champion]

Great thread!

"industry leading chips"
lol I just know this phrase is gonna come back to haunt us all mostly by drive by trolls

I really hope it means what I want it to mean. I still remember those Wii U rumors that made it seems like the console was a beast I dont think I cant take that again.

 

[Terrell]

Except those who moan about droughts are their biggest fans. They likely own both systems. Nintendo doesn't seem to understand the value cross buy yet. If they start giving digital customers a version across platforms when they do a port then it might make sense. See the way Sony handled Journey, flOwer etc

That seems to be the entire point, games being on a single SKU whenever possible.

I mean, we're both reading the same thread, but I guess I can quote myself?

I've read your quote and I don't think you understand the definition of "form factor".

 

[madstarr12]

Uh oh, another NX thread. More on "hybrids", "theories", and nothing. Will be very interesting if it isn't anything like we expect.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

Uh oh, another NX thread. More on "hybrids", "theories", and nothing. Will be very interesting if it isn't anything like we expect.

Did someone say Hybrid Theory?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVTXPUF4Oz4

 

[Clefargle]

Iwata took the reasoning behind the code name to his grave? Omg

 

[AmyS]

Nice OP, Hero of Legend. Really nice.

I like how you started it with points 1, 2, and 3.

 

[Umibozu]

Iwata took the reasoning behind the code name to his grave? Omg

I think he said he made it up before he announced it, there doesn't seem to be much reasoning behind it.

 

[zroid]

Thanks for this thread HOL.

I haven't been keeping up with all the rumours and random updates so I learned a lot.

 

[SolarMystic]

#16 has me more excited than I probably should be. The Wii and Wii U were just such a disappointment in every single area to me though.

I will remain optimistic as always with a new hardware release.

 

[Diffense]

Nice thread to consolidate the little info we have. I think it's pretty clear what Iwata meant by NX as a platform. We don't know how the system will 'excite" players but Iwata went into detail about how they want their hardware/software ecosystem to work. It's clear that they struggled to support two, quite powerful, systems this time around.

 

[dragonzdogma]

Looking at those pics...

"New Nintendo Experiences"

Nintendo NX
Nintendo New Xperience
!!!!

Nintendo Xeno

 

[Bitch Pudding]

My concern is this whole merging handheld and console into one system. I fear that it will be a jack of all trades, master of none. As a console, it wouldn't be too powerfull otherwise it would be too expensive/have crappy battery life while in handheld mode, and vice versa as a handheld.

I don't think that there'll be one system / device, but one eco-system with a high interconnectivity between it's mobile and home console derivate / derivatives.

“That being said, I can assure you we’re not building the next version of Wii or Wii U. It’s something unique and different. It’s something where we have to move away from those platforms in order to make it something that will appeal to our consumer base.”

^^ This Nintendo source more or less makes it clear, that they started with a white sheet when planning the NX. Makes B/C with Wii/U kinda unlikely. But more than a complete new hardware setup, I hope they completely renew their online / digital rights guidelines. For me, attaching digital copies to the console - and not my personal account - would be a showstopper, no matter how good the NX turns out otherwise.

 

[kungfuian]

I feel like all of this information about a unified platform is pretty boring and way too unimaginative. The way it's described just sounds like the cross buy and/or remote play Sony already has. So how is this news really? Sure it will be a nice addition to Nintendo platforms, but nothing to set the world on fire. There is no way this is Nintendo's big move.

I bet a million bucks they have some secret input device/control mechanism and or display tech as the foundation of the new system. It has to be something that gets everyone excited! Or a re-envisioning of some existing thing somehow made amazing with Nintendo magic.

I have said in the past that I could see them go with a system that combines the following- portable/screen based augmented reality with heavy focus on local multiplayer and an Amiibo driven software delivery system. I.E.- So the kiddos are all sitting around each other on the playground, each looking through their portables into the same shared augmented reality smash battle field/Pokemon arena (or whatever), they plunk down their Amiibo toys to select their characters, and have a go at each other with little pseudo holographic characters running around on the ground.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

It's not going to be a single platform, Iwata said they wouldn't do a single platform - he said if anything, there might be more platforms than there were in the past.

If they don't, then why all this talk of unified platform? Anything else would not be too far different than what already exists. Even the unified platform exists for the most part.

I really think that a slightly more gaming-oriented evolution on what Google has done with the Android and Chromecast platforms would be a good idea. Forego a traditional console. There's nothing that could really be done there because that market is closed to them for now.

 

[KingJ2002]

Great Thread OP... just want to add one more article in which Sharp's Free-Form display was demoed and Nintendo is reported to be their first customer... with mass production to begin in early 2016

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...-supply-free-form-lcds-nintendo/#.VpoAElMrI0p

 

[Neoxon]

It's not going to be a single platform, Iwata said they wouldn't do a single platform - he said if anything, there might be more platforms than there were in the past.

They already have a problem with spreading themselves too thin & having software droughts. Your interpretation would exacerbate the issue.

 

[Hermii]

Great thread!

I really hope it means what I want it to mean. I still remember those Wii U rumors that made it seems like the console was a beast I dont think I cant take that again.

I think its very unlikely to mean its super powerful. I think it means it probably has all the latest dx 12.1 features and great efficiency.

 

[Champion]

If they don't, then why all this talk of unified platform? Anything else would not be too far different than what already exists. Even the unified platform exists for the most part.

Points 1 and 2 seem to address this.

 

[Taker666]

I hadn't considered this before, but reading ALL of that.

It feels like we're getting a streaming service.

That can't be possible though...they don't have the infrastructure...right.

Well Nintendo did spend $100 million on a mystery tech aquisition back in early 2014. We still don't know what it was.

I'd say it's highly likely to be part of what makes the NX special. It could be something to do with streaming...or anything else to be honest.

 

[Hermii]

I'm all for a unified architecture, but if some games can only be played on one device, then I'll be pretty unhappy. For me, it's an all or nothing thing. I don't want to be worried about whether or not a game can be played on the handheld or only on the console. It's one of the things about the iPhone and iPad that I don't like.

there is no way a handheld can play the latest assassin creeds for instance, so I believe it will be up to developers.

Or it won't have those games anyway so it doesn't matter

 

[Hermii]

Well Nintendo did spend $100 million on a mystery tech aquisition back in early 2014. We still don't know what it was.

I'd say it's highly likely to be part of what makes the NX special.

I highly doubt it would be a streaming service. Iwata has spoken out about that in the past citing latency. A streaming service wouldn't require new hardware anyway.

 

[Korezo]

So out of the 3 only Nintendo thought of making a system where software will be compatible with all future hardware devices? Thank you, Nintendo.

 

[Ushay]

in other words we don't know shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

My thoughts exactly

 

[DavidDesu]

It would be funny if the handheld portion of NX is simply a Bluetooth controller for slotting a phone onto. I'd pay to see the meltdowns.

 

[mike4001_]

Maybe it´s a handheld with a TV Docking station which adds more power.

I would be OK with that

 

[Neoxon]

Maybe it´s a handheld with a TV Docking station which adds more power.

I would be OK with that

Did you not read the OP?

 

[Blues1990]

We only know enough to realize that we actually don't know anything.

 

[Cheeseman Battitude]

Do you think we will get an OS-update to WiiU & New 3DS (yes I'm leaving original 3DS out) to have some sort of compatibility/emulation for NX software, so you can (to a degree) play the NX games with older hardware as well?

I'm fully expecting an update that caters for the new account system at least. If you think about the new Nintendo Account being available on things like smartphones and PCs, it would be strange for them not to offer it on Wii U/n3DS. Whether that means compatibility with whatever new version of the eShop the NX has so that you can still buy Wii U software or whether that means some sort of NX game compatibility, who knows?

 

[Chittagong]

Going by the quotes and timings in the OP, I'll do another of my Nostradamus prophesies.

The reason we don't have any leaks about the software platform, concept, retailers, developers or supply chain is not airtight quadruple NDAs, Nintendo ninjas and a Saturn style surprise launch.

Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest explanation is that the NX is nowhere near to the market.

After all, they were still unsure about the concept / form factor last year, and just made up the code name. Silicon takes longer to tape out than what they have between those comments and Q4/16. The only credibility to any 2016 rumours has come from the usually reliable Japanese press.

We'll see this year a concept announcement a la TGS 2005, that's about it. That's what their new CEO promised just this week, and that's what Nintendo promised last year - 'details' not 'release'. Nintendo has just enough software coming for Wii U and 3DS to thinly spread across 2016.

 

[Roo]

I really hope it means what I want it to mean. I still remember those Wii U rumors that made it seems like the console was a beast I dont think I cant take that again.

I don't think Wii U was ever considered a beast by any means but it sure seems like it was a more powerful machine than what it actually ended up being.

God knows what made Nintendo change its mind at the last minute.

 

[Overside]

I'll just drop that here, for future 'how fast can ARM be anyway' references:

Blu's "let's benchmark something quickly" Benchmark - 4x4 fp32 matrix multiplication on a bunch of architectures. All numbers are in flops/clock per one physical core (while running the test on all cores to counter turbo-boost et al). State-of-the-art compiler techniques have been used to achieve maximum performance. Where the compiler has left me no choice I've reverted to inline assembly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| CPU                   | N-way SIMD ALUs  | flops/clock | remarks                                        |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IBM PowerPC 750CL     | 2-way            | 1.51        | g++ 4.6, paired-singles via autovectorization  |
| AMD Bobcat            | 2-way            | 1.47        | clang++ 3.4, SSE2 via intrinsics               |
| Intel Sandy Bridge    | 8-way            | 9.03        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 via generic vectors        |
| Intel Ivy Bridge      | 8-way            | 9.09        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 via generic vectors        |
| Intel Haswell         | 8-way            | 9.56        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 + FMA3 via generic vectors |
| Intel Xeon Phi (KNC)  | 16-way           | 6.62        | icpc 14.0.4, MIC via intrinsics                |
| iMX53 Cortex A8       | 2-way            | 2.23        | clang++ 3.5, NEON via inline asm               |
| RK3368 Cortex A53     | 2-way            | 2.40        | clang++ 3.5, A32* NEON via inline asm          |
| APM X-Gene 1          | 2-way            | 2.71        | clang++ 3.5, A64 NEON via generic vectors      |
| Apple A7              | 4-way            | 11.07       | apple clang++ 7.0.0, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |
| Apple A8              | 4-way            | 12.19       | apple clang++ 7.0.0, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |
| Apple A9              | 4-way            | 16.xx**     | apple clang++ 7.x.x, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* A32 in aarch64; i.e. ARMv8 running 32-bit code
** don't have my notes ATM, so number is from memory

Isn't there like a decade between the 750 and bobcat? And well... Everything else? And is bobcat really getting beaten in floating point by grandpa or is that some weird bench quirk?

 

[Feffe]

Everytime I read NX will be an hybrid I can't stop thinking about Doctor Who latest season...

Anyway, I think NX will be a family of systems comprising, at first, one home console and two handhelds (normal model, XL model). Every system in NX family will have the same common architecture (likely ARM). Some games will be compatible only with the home console, like Xenoblade 3D is exclusive to New 3DS. After 2-3 years Nintendo will release a new handheld and a new home console: the new handheld will be, more or less, like 1st generation home console, and past home games will be forward-compatible with 2nd generation handheld. 2nd generation home will have some exclusive games which will be forward-compatible with 3rd generation handheld and so on. Older generation of home consoles and handhelds could become cheap entry-level devices into Nintendo ecosystem when a new generation is released.

The problem is, I don't think enough people will buy NX home.

 

[ElTorro]

I'll just drop that here, for future 'how fast can ARM be anyway' references:

Blu's "let's benchmark something quickly" Benchmark - 4x4 fp32 matrix multiplication on a bunch of architectures. All numbers are in flops/clock per one physical core (while running the test on all cores to counter turbo-boost et al). State-of-the-art compiler techniques have been used to achieve maximum performance. Where the compiler has left me no choice I've reverted to inline assembly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| CPU                   | N-way SIMD ALUs  | flops/clock | remarks                                        |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IBM PowerPC 750CL     | 2-way            | 1.51        | g++ 4.6, paired-singles via autovectorization  |
| AMD Bobcat            | 2-way            | 1.47        | clang++ 3.4, SSE2 via intrinsics               |
| Intel Sandy Bridge    | 8-way            | 9.03        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 via generic vectors        |
| Intel Ivy Bridge      | 8-way            | 9.09        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 via generic vectors        |
| Intel Haswell         | 8-way            | 9.56        | clang++ 3.6, AVX256 + FMA3 via generic vectors |
| Intel Xeon Phi (KNC)  | 16-way           | 6.62        | icpc 14.0.4, MIC via intrinsics                |
| iMX53 Cortex A8       | 2-way            | 2.23        | clang++ 3.5, NEON via inline asm               |
| RK3368 Cortex A53     | 2-way            | 2.40        | clang++ 3.5, A32* NEON via inline asm          |
| APM X-Gene 1          | 2-way            | 2.71        | clang++ 3.5, A64 NEON via generic vectors      |
| Apple A7              | 4-way            | 11.07       | apple clang++ 7.0.0, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |
| Apple A8              | 4-way            | 12.19       | apple clang++ 7.0.0, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |
| Apple A9              | 4-way            | 16.xx**     | apple clang++ 7.x.x, A64 NEON via intrinsics   |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* A32 in aarch64; i.e. ARMv8 running 32-bit code
** don't have my notes ATM, so number is from memory

This benchmark—like most—has to be read with caution. The fact that the SIMD blocks in those processors have different widths has dramatic consequences for this specific benchmark, but does not reflect the general performance of a CPU architecture.

 

[Overside]

Those Bobcat results make me cry. How far is the Jaguar from that performance?

15% increase in IPC is what I remember the big pitch being about.

 

[hohoXD123]

Wonder if it'll be similar to the Razer Blade Stealth + Razer Core. Or whether you need both the handheld and console in the first place, costs of that would be pretty damn high.

 

[Broken Hope]

I hope they really do create some kind of Nintendo OS platform as is hinted here. Something akin to iOS or Android. A multitude of devices, like with iPhones and iPads, with different processors, different amounts of RAM, different screen resolutions, but fundamentally it is relatively easy/comes as standard the ability to make a game once, do some optimising for one platform or another, and just see it working on all the devices. Backwards and forwards compatibility is effectively built in, at least for a span of 3 or so generations of the devices.

If they do this, have a good handheld, a decent console... they might have a chance.

I still would love them to have a console that doesn't immediately feel inferior, or even on the same level, as current gen. Would love to see them really go beyond that but seems highly unlikely.

Given how shit the Wii U OS is I wouldn't like to see Nintendo try and make a fully fledged OS.

 

[ElTorro]

Given how shit the Wii U OS is I wouldn't like to see Nintendo try and make a fully fledged OS.

Nobody makes a complete OS nowadays. All recent operating systems for gaming platforms that I am aware of are built on a free software foundation like BSD or Linux distributions. Platform providers usually customize UI, drivers, APIs, and services.

Nintendo's "software platform" will likely consist of a unified set of APIs and tool chains.