Canis lupus
Member
Look at that variety
Why are there still so many white men in video games
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Garrett Hawke
Member
You're right that it's because they're risk-averse but it's still fucked up and needs to change. The audience does not solely consist of white men and they need to stop thinking it does.
Deified Data
Banned
A. Sarkeesian tweets something we all know and have discussed countless times in countless different threads. What new bit of insight is she bringing to the table with this tweet, to warrant a thread devoted to discussing it?
Yes, I agree that what Nintendo and Tecmo Koei and the team on Splatoon are doing is great.
However, it would be great to have a believable (=realistic) represantation of women in games. I think we need more characters like Clementine and the like and less 'Damsels in distress' and 'Hey I have boobs, look at me' characters.
And are wealthier by far. As of now anyway.
Haunted
Member
I know 39 Male Protagonists hasn't quite the same ring to it, but really, Sherlock Holmes?
It didn't feel more or less an issue compared to previous years (which is an issue in itself).
It didn't feel more or less an issue compared to previous years (which is an issue in itself).
None of those was featured at E3 2014.
GoofsterStud
Member
Maybe it has to do with the portion of races making games.... People fail to realize that its much easier to make characters from you own culture/race. It's to easy to fall into the stereotypes which also can get you under heat...or the every race acts to white situation.
I notice a lot of "chicks taking down aliens" games. But not a lot of chicks taking down white men in games. Why is that? Is one more acceptable than the other?
Because, the majority of the video games industry is white males making games where the majority of consumers are white males, in countries where the majority of the populations are white.
People tend to make media based on themselves, or what sells to the largest population/consumer base. It's why Disney films will almost always focus on white princesses for the foreseeable future.
It's because if they make a game featuring a black male in 90's LA, they get tons of people saying I can't relate to this (Seriously read some of the responses in the San Andreas thread here). Even in games where they give choice, they find things like in Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3, 82% of all players played as Male Shepard. Only 18% of players used FemShep.
Sure as many more people enter the industry and as demographics change in the country, you'll see greater representation. But this won't happen overnight, and even for the foreseeable future this will continue. Heck, even the Japanese industry which is almost all Japanese men, uses white male protagonists most of the time. They're not in the business of social change, but what makes them the most money from games.
People tend to make media based on themselves, or what sells to the largest population/consumer base. It's why Disney films will almost always focus on white princesses for the foreseeable future.
It's because if they make a game featuring a black male in 90's LA, they get tons of people saying I can't relate to this (Seriously read some of the responses in the San Andreas thread here). Even in games where they give choice, they find things like in Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3, 82% of all players played as Male Shepard. Only 18% of players used FemShep.
Sure as many more people enter the industry and as demographics change in the country, you'll see greater representation. But this won't happen overnight, and even for the foreseeable future this will continue. Heck, even the Japanese industry which is almost all Japanese men, uses white male protagonists most of the time. They're not in the business of social change, but what makes them the most money from games.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I don't even know how to respond to this. It doesn't make you look good, I'll tell you that.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
While we have a lot of room to grow- even more with with minorities in general - there literally has never been a better representation of women in gaming than today. It's a slow process but it's more of a reflection of the buying habits of consumers that a thread like this exists... OP leaving out games like tomb raider and first light why? Because you weren't going to buy them anyway or are we just attacking certain games?
Also child of light and transistor literally just launched, both strong female leads. Black female leads in two of the last AC games (Aveline), black male leads in GTA, Crysis, Prototype 2, a whole string of FF games... Nintendo showed a bunch, there's a woman in every Division trailer and on the box art for the game. Just Danxe is like the 2nd biggest franchise in gaming and that's predominately female-skewing with women dancers, marketing, and family focused fun.
Let's keep pushing the conversation fwd, but let's do it constructively and not ignore the steps that have come before
Also child of light and transistor literally just launched, both strong female leads. Black female leads in two of the last AC games (Aveline), black male leads in GTA, Crysis, Prototype 2, a whole string of FF games... Nintendo showed a bunch, there's a woman in every Division trailer and on the box art for the game. Just Danxe is like the 2nd biggest franchise in gaming and that's predominately female-skewing with women dancers, marketing, and family focused fun.
Let's keep pushing the conversation fwd, but let's do it constructively and not ignore the steps that have come before
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Ubisoft just released Child of Light. The Assassins Creed series is comprised mostly of non-white male protags. The previous Far Cry game had a male lead for a blatant reason in the context of the story. As for Rainbow Six: Siege, I'm not even going to dignify the hubbub around the female hostage with a response.
People are remarkably quick to jump down throats on this topic.
licktheenvelope
Member
People have a bizarre view that if 50% of the entire population is female, games should comprise of 50% females and 50% of all protagonists should be female.
(That's not sarcasm I do find that bizarre).
As mentioned if you're a white guy you're more likely to focus on making a game from the POV of a white guy.
If I tried to make a Black Female character for a game... ya probably wouldn't go well lol.
Haunted
Member
Gotta wake up sometime. Better sooner than later.
As videogaming continues to grow, so grows the audience, so grows the demand for representation from previously underrepresented groups - like women, minorities, etc.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Because people are fed up of it. It seems like sites are also more willing to give voices to women, whereas before they were just "stand in front of a camera, recite this news article and look pretty. Don't forget to wink for the pre-pubescent teens btw"
But have the roles ever been reversed in the series or has she ever had her own mainline game? I'm actually curious
redmetal86
Member
Garrett Hawke
Member
So, for example, it's okay to make racist products as long as you make money?
It's not a business drive. It's an ethical drive.
Because white adult males make those games, more like. People tend to represent themselves in their creations.
mk10. The final number is unknown, but Cassie cage and bug girl at least 2 playable females are in the game.
block tower
Member
while i'm not someone who thinks forced diversity is the best route, it is a bit disconcerting to see how much of a conscious effort there is to make the "white male" the default. it was something you just start to notice while watching e3 this year, so many games just copying and pasting a slight variant of the white male protagonist. like i brought up in a previous thread about this topic, white males are the default for many developers because it takes attention off scrutinizing the protagonist. a white male default allows developers to make a generic story and character without much flack because if the protagonist was a female or anither ethnicity people would pay closer attention to how that character was portrayed as well as the story. with generic white male most people gloss over the character and story and just take the game at face value. its a problem that needs to change but i'm skeptical of if and when it will.
Only for the Phillips CD-i
Which is odd cause Princess peach starred in two games but Zelda never got the one.
FloweryMarston
Member
But GTA V and The last of us are remasters, that doesn't count =P
sonikokaruto
Banned
WHY DO ALL GAMES ASSUME WE ARE ALL AIR BREATHERS!?
#BOYCOTTAIR
#BOYCOTTAIR
I don't want anyone to feel alienated or marginalized. Everyone wants the same thing -- acceptance -- and fears the same thing -- rejection. So whatever their skin color, physical features, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, lifestyle, etc., they should feel accepted and cherished. So I'm all for diversity in games.
That being said, as a general rule of thumb, I'm wary about creative types feeling like they have to create something other than what they want to create, just to appease a perceived demand. I think it's good to show there's a demand for these things, and that we want to see these things. I'd just be wary of criminalizing them if/when they don't deliver, because for all we know, maybe what they give us is really the story they want to tell.
Then again, maybe some of these creative types really want to tell stories featuring black protagonists, female protagonists, gay protagonists, etc. Maybe they end up making white male protagonists because they're forced by the publisher to make something that will "sell."
But maybe they also just want to legitimately tell a story involving a white male.
Maybe that desire sometimes coincides with the creative type being a white male himself. In which case, perhaps if more blacks, women, gays, etc., went into game design and filled the positions that create these characters, we'd see more of them.
Or maybe they, too, would just make white men.
Or maybe they'd be forced to make white men.
My long-winded point here is I'm not sure at which level we end up getting what we get. Is it genuine creative choice? Is it a company mandate? Is it reflective of the people making the games? Some combination thereof? None of the above?
It's a good dialogue to have, and with a kind and constructive tone, could garner sympathizers and engender empathy.
That being said, as a general rule of thumb, I'm wary about creative types feeling like they have to create something other than what they want to create, just to appease a perceived demand. I think it's good to show there's a demand for these things, and that we want to see these things. I'd just be wary of criminalizing them if/when they don't deliver, because for all we know, maybe what they give us is really the story they want to tell.
Then again, maybe some of these creative types really want to tell stories featuring black protagonists, female protagonists, gay protagonists, etc. Maybe they end up making white male protagonists because they're forced by the publisher to make something that will "sell."
But maybe they also just want to legitimately tell a story involving a white male.
Maybe that desire sometimes coincides with the creative type being a white male himself. In which case, perhaps if more blacks, women, gays, etc., went into game design and filled the positions that create these characters, we'd see more of them.
Or maybe they, too, would just make white men.
Or maybe they'd be forced to make white men.
My long-winded point here is I'm not sure at which level we end up getting what we get. Is it genuine creative choice? Is it a company mandate? Is it reflective of the people making the games? Some combination thereof? None of the above?
It's a good dialogue to have, and with a kind and constructive tone, could garner sympathizers and engender empathy.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I would say that the indie scene is much better at it than the AAA industry. However, Ubisoft really half-assed Liberation so I don't even know if that should count as AAA.
That said, FF is quite good at this (although it also has a lot of fan service and FFXV looks to be a sausage fest) and in things like the Division and other RPGs, it's a choice. Whereas in a lot of non-RPGs, you're stuck on a male protag.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
I have seen more female characters than ever before these days. Probably should start researching all games instead of being selective for her article or whatever.
For a business it's a financial drive and then a legal drive. For ethical drives you have to look outside of the big publishers, especially if you're dealing with new IPs.
1. Because most mainstream game developers and executives who make decisions are white men
2. Because most mainstream game developers and executives who make decisions are white men who don't care about diversity
Fix either of those and you will fix the problem. #1 being the most important.
2. Because most mainstream game developers and executives who make decisions are white men who don't care about diversity
Fix either of those and you will fix the problem. #1 being the most important.
But then what would sustain her sense of entitlement and anger that the world doesn't cater to her?
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
The eagerness and carelessness with which people accuse others of heavy accusations like misogynist and sexist saddens me too.
I do apologize if you really think that it does sound racist, I just couldn't find any better words for it.
The movie and TV industry is a lot more diverse now than it ever was before with hundreds of female actors in leading roles, etc. Why is it then that the gaming industry still stands still while all the other mediums like literature and movies embrace a more colourful cast of characters with people of all genders and ethnicities?
That is too bad. I am allowed opinions too, and mine are just as valid as yours.
The amount of pitchfork-baiting going on in the game press this week is getting ridiculous. Way too much victimhood in many of these threads lately. Surprising all of you that are "offended" are not complaining about TV and movies etc., where they grossly portray both sexes and races horribly exaggerated.
Yes, games are meant to be interactive, and yes games moreso than any other medium allows for the option for multiple sexes and whatnot as player characters, but expecting that game developers MUST and HAVE TO address all options is ridiculous. Where is the outrage over Bayonetta and Tomb Raider - why can't I play these as a male PC? It is a perfectly acceptable decision for a game maker to decide to make their game single-sex or ethnicity, or whatever.
It is one thing to ask for these things, but another for all of the over-the-top hand wringing is ridiculous.
Neither do characters in games. Does anyone have data showing that white men are actually overrepresented in games, compared to those developing and purchasing the games? And if so, why does it really matter, and what do you propose be done about it?
It seems safe to assume that groups looking for representation in games will find a way of getting it, by developing and purchasing those games. There's no external force placing limits on that sort of thing. No government body dictating that games have white male protagonists.
Garrett Hawke
Member
It's changing, slowly. I am doing a course at uni specifically for game development and our lecturers say that every year, the gender ratio evens out a little more. There's still something like 4 or 5 dudes to every girl on our course, but it's getting there.
figadapaura
Member
Were they at E3?
I'm going to say in part because it's hard to fuck up whereas minority/female characters invite further scrutiny. We lament white male video characters as a trend but it doesn't seem to be a complaint that's directed against any particular game. Whereas if you made your game with a different kind of protagonist you open it up to all sorts of specific criticism.
What about *, though ? We need more * characters too.
*insert any under-represented character here (old people, dinosaurs, demon king, marshmallow, eventually girls, colored people and different ethnicities, feel free to complete the list)
*insert any under-represented character here (old people, dinosaurs, demon king, marshmallow, eventually girls, colored people and different ethnicities, feel free to complete the list)
I agree with the general sentiment and I'm also kind of tired of the random generic 30ish white dude
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