If you're going to make a power fantasy you make sure to make it for someone that can identify with it, either yourself or the intended audience.
Why are there still so many white men in video games
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If you're going to make a power fantasy you make sure to make it for someone that can identify with it, either yourself or the intended audience.
Garrett Hawke
Member
A lot of people do complain about representation in TV and movies, though. Clearly you haven't heard of the Bechdel Test.
Also, the reason why people don't complain about being unable to play as a man in those games is because for every x number games that come out with an unchangeable white male protag, there is only one with a female as the only option.
licktheenvelope
Member
If everything isn't 100% equal the moral high ground is in choosing 100% equality (despite the fact that people aren't ever 100% equal in anything...)/endsarcasm
When did I call you a misogynist or sexist?
I know what you meant of course.
redmetal86
Member
You mean the one claiming that one manga artist was the second richest person in Japan or something like that?
While things could be better, yeah, but a military shooter won't have 50/50 split because the military itself doesn't have a 50/50 split. Same for a thug simulator: violent criminals and prison inmates are overwhelmingly male.
If you're sick of playing as a white male you're probably playing shitty western autoplatforming murder simulators non stop. Diversify your gaming habits!
No it was talking about a problem in the manga industry (don't remember what it was) and how women entered the industry and worked to change whatever it was and had examples.
No it was talking about a problem in the manga industry (don't remember what it was) and how women entered the industry and worked to change whatever it was and had examples.
HerpDerpstreit
Member
I think it's easier to accept that a white male is the only type/ sex of person that has the ego or is unstable enough to do a lot of the crazy shit that happens in games.
You think the press is bad for violence in video games now? Put 3 female leads in GTA V and see what kind of shit storm that raises.
You think the press is bad for violence in video games now? Put 3 female leads in GTA V and see what kind of shit storm that raises.
I prefer to be optimistic to be honest, and as somebody else said, there are more playable female characters now in games than ever before. It's slowly changing, and these things don't happen overnight (even though some people seem to think that it can be just changed overnight, at the snap of a finger). More women are getting into the industry, and more games (albeit very slowly) are trying to be more diverse.
Just have a little patience is all I say. Things are definitely changing.
Just have a little patience is all I say. Things are definitely changing.
unempLLOYD
Member
I want to play a far cry game or any game that puts the main protagonists in some fucked up survival horror or adventure game with a BLACK male protagonist
. They are funny, up-lifting, relatable and have great sarcastic reactions to things going to shit.
from the hood
When the majority of AAA games are coming out of North America and Europe, I'm not all that surprised. Japan is sort of a different story because they resort to anime styles or cater to the NA/EU audience, but I've played games from Africa, Philippines, Korea, and other countries with protagonists and characters who represent them. The more diversity there is in the industry itself, the more diversity we will see in video games.
DidntKnowJack
Member
I guess I don't understand the mentality that if you're a woman you only want to play as a woman in games. If I'm playing a video game, I don't give a rats ass what the gender of the protagonist is. I just want a good game with hopefully a cohesive story.
Garrett Hawke
Member
The slight racism though. Could've been worded a little better...
block tower
Member
is this a joke post?
black people= comic relief for your white protagonist?
the fuck out of here
fuzzyreactor
Banned
because the target market are predominantly white males
makes sense to me
makes sense to me
ClaptoVaughn
Member
This is going to sound racist (and to be honest, it kind of is)...
I'm asian but I prefer white male protagonists in games.
(That's not even the racist part. Here's the racist part):
Because to me, white guys in games are plain. They're just...there. A face. Brownish hair or something. When I'm given a plain slate like that, I can just apply my own imagination and interpretation to the character as I play.
On the other hand, if the character had defined cultural/racial features, I'm stuck playing an asian guy. I'm stuck playing a black guy. Or a hispanic guy. If he's white? I make him whatever I want him to be. There are so many of them in games that their race has loss any real meaning.
You know that blank silhouette on your phone's contact list if you don't add a custom photo? That's more/less what I think of when I see a video game with a white male lead...[insert personality here].
Some games make sense having a particular race. Sleeping Dogs has you playing a Chinese guy. Well your character is an undercover cop in HONG KONG, so yeah that makes sense. But in vast majority of games I simply don't need to be reminded of my character's race because they typically do a stereotypical and borderline offensive portrayal of it anyways. However, white males are typically portrayed as just some dude.
I'm asian but I prefer white male protagonists in games.
(That's not even the racist part. Here's the racist part):
Because to me, white guys in games are plain. They're just...there. A face. Brownish hair or something. When I'm given a plain slate like that, I can just apply my own imagination and interpretation to the character as I play.
On the other hand, if the character had defined cultural/racial features, I'm stuck playing an asian guy. I'm stuck playing a black guy. Or a hispanic guy. If he's white? I make him whatever I want him to be. There are so many of them in games that their race has loss any real meaning.
You know that blank silhouette on your phone's contact list if you don't add a custom photo? That's more/less what I think of when I see a video game with a white male lead...[insert personality here].
Some games make sense having a particular race. Sleeping Dogs has you playing a Chinese guy. Well your character is an undercover cop in HONG KONG, so yeah that makes sense. But in vast majority of games I simply don't need to be reminded of my character's race because they typically do a stereotypical and borderline offensive portrayal of it anyways. However, white males are typically portrayed as just some dude.
El Gato you're from Austria. Tell me, how often will people in Austria buy games, books, or movies if the leads were Indian men, Chinese women, African men? If the protagonists were Muslim etc. How much of Austrian media features anything beyond Austrian men and women? Not much right. The largest ethnic group would be considered "Turks", how often would you say Turkish Muslim Austrians would be represented? Then you have the answer.
What are the largest/important gaming markets in the world? The US/UK/EU/JP/Australia/Canada etc. Outside of Japan, all of the places regions are predominantly white and the consumers/gamers in these markets are white, often males. The majority of the devs in North America and Europe are white males. People make media based on themselves or they'll choose something that will be well received by the larger population. Sure they can switch it up, but when they see these games sell well, why would they risk it? This is a business, they are in it to make the most profit. If they find that having a woman person of color makes the most business and financial sense they'll do it. But as is sadly the case, the games with the white male protagonist sell well, and even if they add choice, most still pick males, usually white.
Look at Japan even. Most of their games are only white male protagonists, with the occasional all Asian games etc. Very few to no people of color.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
block tower
Member
so in your mind white people can be anything, but non-white characters are only limited to stereotypical tropes? interesting.. i sense a lot of self loathing in that post.
miDnIghtEr20C
Banned
This is what I hate about the new school.
The vision of one person working from their vision creating in a single dimension vs the vision of a few people built by many in a whole heap of dimensions. if all of the people on a moderate sized team are from similar ethnic and cultural backgrounds their game will reflect that in one way or another.
It's not an excuse I just think it's a factor. More games from more people in more places is the answer. The fact that this conversation even happens means it's only a matter of time before we get there. Look at the cast of Telltale's The Walking Dead. We're on our way.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
I'm not just signaling you out, but I'm trying to raise a side point: you can't have it both ways, to me that is just injecting opinion into the debate. The over arching argument is the call for more inclusion, more women-leads in gaming. You can't go in and cherry pick what counts and what does not count based on your perceived quality of that game. You will literally never be satisfied and are not open to the reality of the situation.
You might not like Liberation, but to dismiss it because you don't think it's AAA when the main character is clearly a black female hurts the entire side of the argument that is calling for more inclusion. She was a lead in Liberation and playable in Black Flag, don't dismiss that. CoL and Transistor might be "indie" (Ubisoft published one, mind you, so that's not independent), and not a $50mm budget, but I don't understand the dismissal because they are great examples of "inclusion." I even see people deriding Tomb Raider eclipse Lara is talking to a therapist in a teaser trailer. As if her being a person dealing with real issues like a real person makes her less of a woman lead.
I think the biggest thing hurting the argument is that there's no unified, singular positive side on this calling for inclusion - there's way too much personal preference popping up on both sides
Garrett Hawke
Member
It's still pretty bad in the film industry though. Edge of Tomorrow would be a great recent example. Badass female character = good; forced romance while the guy gets the job done = bad.
Bad logic that they assume is correct. They assume that white protagonists are more relatable to their customer base and that this will somehow translate into better sales. What makes a protagonist relatable is character development, story, and expression. They're using bad practice to excuse or cover bad or lazy design.
ClaptoVaughn
Member
No, in games only.
Read the part at the end of my post. Other races tend to get a bunch of stereotypical traits like the developers feel pressured to remind us of our character's race.
However, with white characters, they tend not to do that. It's just some guy with a general background that could apply to anyone.
Valkerionseven
Member
Watched this movie yesterday, glad I was not the only one annoyed by that.
Sadly, Austria, or at least the city Linz where I live is not a good indicator of progressiveness in the world. The people here are still stuck in the past and often make racist or sexist remarks or jokes. But it is a small country and not a good indicator, as I said.
timetokill
Banned
I went back and looked at Nintendo's Direct, and did a count:
Smash Bros -- Ensemble cast, could consider Mario, Little Mac, Pit, and maybe Link to be "white males"
Zelda U -- Link, maybe
Pokemon -- None (customizable, right?) -- I think all Asian... maybe two if white (not that familiar with Pokemon, sorry)
Bayonetta -- female and minority character leads
Hyrule Warriors -- Link, again, if you count him, but several playable female characters
Xenoblade Chronicles X -- maybe? too soon to say, they look to be from US but that doesn't mean white necessarily
Mario Maker -- Mario
Splatoon intro -- 2 girls, 2 boys, "squid people", the orange girl seems to be the "face" of the franchise
Kirby, Yoshi, Captain Toad -- no white males
Unless you think Japanese game makers view their characters as white instead of Asian, it's a pretty diverse lineup. Overall you have to wonder if it's mostly a western issue.
Smash Bros -- Ensemble cast, could consider Mario, Little Mac, Pit, and maybe Link to be "white males"
Zelda U -- Link, maybe
Pokemon -- None (customizable, right?) -- I think all Asian... maybe two if white (not that familiar with Pokemon, sorry)
Bayonetta -- female and minority character leads
Hyrule Warriors -- Link, again, if you count him, but several playable female characters
Xenoblade Chronicles X -- maybe? too soon to say, they look to be from US but that doesn't mean white necessarily
Mario Maker -- Mario
Splatoon intro -- 2 girls, 2 boys, "squid people", the orange girl seems to be the "face" of the franchise
Kirby, Yoshi, Captain Toad -- no white males
Unless you think Japanese game makers view their characters as white instead of Asian, it's a pretty diverse lineup. Overall you have to wonder if it's mostly a western issue.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I'm sorry if it came across as me not thinking highly of Liberation for that reason. It was a day one purchase for me and I would love to see more of it, regardless of the quality of the game. It was just a shame that after the initial hardcore AC fans, nobody was really going to buy it because it wasn't that good of a game, hence not providing an amazing opportunity for gamers that usually wouldn't pick up a game with a female protag to pick up a critical darling and discover what they're missing out on.
As for Tomb Raider, I think it's fine. I think anyone that doesn't need therapy after what Lara went through in TR2013 is fucked up.
I understand what you're saying but it just sucks that the games that do have female protagonists are usually less... developed? Funded? I don't know what the proper word is, but a quick glance at metacritic will tell you everything you need to know.
You don't see a GTA or a Bioshock or a CoD with a female protag, because that's seen as too much of a gamble by publishers. DLC? Sure, because people have already bought the game. But full $60 AAA titles? Rare.
MightyHedgehog
Member
I don't think it's just as simple as white manchildren selling to other white manchildren, but it definitely is part of a sort of institutionalized discrimination against those who aren't white males. Like the Hollywood thing and politicians, it's about safe bets rather than reality of who it is that a product is aimed at making its money off of. I don't know if there's fully reliable data on who buys and plays, but when your biggest budget games are made with the help of hundreds to thousands of artists who aren't all or mostly white and male, your systems and accessories are manufactured by mostly non-whites, I wonder about the how much comedy there is to wring from the general subject of video games when it comes to how the sausage is made and who eats it. Hedging those bets and following the perceived message of metrics that scare the money men into walking the thin white line seems to be the thing, but the pattern is basically burning some generally unhelpful ideas into young minds, repeating a cycle of thinking and preference. It's annoying coming to terms with the reality of living in the white kingdom when you're not white, but you'll come around eventually and start lightening your skin in no time to fit in as well as possible. Note: I am drinking a bit today and just watched Ice Pirates again. White heroes, but lots of 'race relations' humor.
DidntKnowJack
Member
Expanding on what i said earlier, I think this is also a result of just plain bad and unimaginative writing in games. I think if writing improves, so do the characters, and because of that the diversity will follow. Think of the games with the best stories in your favorite games. You probably find some strong female characters as well as people of color. On the other side of that, if you have a glut of the same old military shooters, it's little wonder inroads aren't being made.
Atomic Airplanes
Member
Not this image again...
Garrett Hawke
Member
Yeah, it really ticked me off because it was a pretty good movie - that was the biggest let down of it for me. Edge of Tomorrow FULL SPOILERS:
also it didn't make sense that she already felt romantically for him considering in her view, she'd known him for what - 2 or 3 days? While it's understandable that he might have developed romantic feelings for her over the course of months and months of spending time with her, it just seemed a little unrealistic for her part.
RockTurtle
Member
because sarkeesian only looks at things from a western perspective.
It's straight up a business/economics issue. I believe the 3DS has a nearly 50/50 Male/Female ownership ratio - a stat not reflected among standalone console owners. Because of that, it makes sense for them to move to present far more of a equivalent female presence among their games lineup, since they're marketing to a giant female audience alongside the traditional male one. They're also primarily marketing to kids, where the genders behave much more similarly to each other before puberty hits.
Yup. See: Tyler Perry's entire career.
What's the ideal split? Is it relative to the countries' demographics or something else.
If so, which country. USA may be 70% white, 12 black, 13 Hispanic (I think), but a game developed in somewhere like sweeden. Would be a lot more white. And then there's somewhere like japan...
If it's not done by countries demographics, then what should be the metric? Eye test?
But women is pretty constant so the would the ideal be 50/50 for protags?
If so, which country. USA may be 70% white, 12 black, 13 Hispanic (I think), but a game developed in somewhere like sweeden. Would be a lot more white. And then there's somewhere like japan...
If it's not done by countries demographics, then what should be the metric? Eye test?
But women is pretty constant so the would the ideal be 50/50 for protags?
Garrett Hawke
Member
Have you heard of the concept of character empathy?
It doesn't just extend to race/gender/sexuality etc - it also extends to personality traits, motivations, etc. But for some people a big part of it is sharing that common physical characteristic.
AtomskEater
Member
Do you have any suggestions for games made outside of the usual countries? I've always thought that if game development became big outside of US/EU/JP we'd see a lot more diversity.
unempLLOYD
Member
Sorry about that, it definitely wasn't intended to be a racist post, nor was it meant to be a joke post. It was just me speaking my own opinion.
I actually see your point here. With white male characters being such a default choice, it also makes them incredibly bland and forgettable. But, whenever they change the character to something else, they beat you over the head with how different and "exotic" this character is. Interesting.
May be true but I want to play as an alien creature, not a white dude. I want to have four arms. Why can't this happen? FOUR ARMS!
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