Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Explain?Ilúvatar;116680478 said:
Why are there still so many white men in video games
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Yeah, that's the problem. I do know more than a few Japanese people and frankly the complete substitution of caucasian features for authentic Japanese/Asian features being as accepted wholly as it is in most anime/manga highly disturbing to me and to more than a few them as well. The people that constantly try to argue this point to the unanointed and and un-brainwashed often times get told that they're a little bit crazy.
True story...
I invited some people to my place while I was in grad school basically to study and get some pretty complicated work done. On a food break after we ran out to get some grub to bring back I put on Cooler's Revenge. Being who I am, after the movie, I brought up the whole race topic already knowing about some Japanese people personally identifying with manga/anime characters and that my Japanese and Korean friends were fans anime and manga. I also knew that my other friend wasn't really familiar with the art form and didn't have a formed opinion. I just asked her whether she thought Goku was looked Japanese and she said she thought he was supposed to be Italian or Greek, but it was kind of strange that he was steeped in an story built around pretty Japanese/Asian cultural traditions. Of course my anime fan friends went off and to calm them down I agreed and said the characters looked Japanese/Asian enough even though I didn't agree. After I saw the drooping face of incredulity and the squint of disbelief I knew I wasn't crazy. That at event to talk about it and basically say she thought the anime fans were a bit thrown off psychologically. I wouldn't go that far, but I'll never understand Asian people self identifying with characters that clearly look far more white than asian in appearance.
How this fits into the discussion is that some people would argue that Japanese game developers will do a better job at creating more diversity in games, but considering most of them are deeply rooted in the manga/anime art tradition it's just more of the same with a slightly stylized twist.
Here are some comparison images that lend to this topic:
And that's why the vast majority of video game characters are awful. One dimensional 'badasses', male or female, don't regularly make for very interesting characters. Male video game characters who have no depth and whose only motivation for being a bad ass is to fuck shit up and not need a motivation isn't male empowerment against female protagonists like Lara displaying emotion and attempting to have depth. I'd like to see more male protagonists, just as I'd like to see more female protagonists, have depth and feel like humans.
It shouldn't be about what gender is best idolized, but instead about making really good characters. If that's at the expense of a female character appearing weak and not a badass, than so be it. I'd hate to see a trend of game developers going down a checklist of do's and dont's on how to best represent a gender.
Oh...Oh my GOD.
This is another problem with very little diversity in games. When that one out of one hundred non-white male character does finally come out the the criticism of that character to be everything all of the non-white male fans want is overwhelming and unrealistic, but they're so starved and under-served it becomes a natural reaction. If there was a broad array of characters with different motivations, different backstories, different looks, different strengths and weaknesses there would be very few complaints about the new re-imagined Lara Croft.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
But in the reality where the vast majority of vidoegame narratives are at the same level as porn films are, why not use a non straight white male character as your paperthin cypher?
The problem is that you cannot walk up to a developer, to their face, and tell them "You should have had a *insert difference here* lead." It's a complaint brought up without a path to a solution. (Which would most likely include recruiting more under-represented groups into the industry, or by showing that an under-served market niche exists.)
I disagree with those that say Ubisoft shouldn't be called out for the silliness of their remark. I haven't looked into the game or details, though, and I'm basically in a "if on XB1/PS4/PC, no real excuse", "PS360 and below- can understand it may be an economics issues due to possible memory issues like those that hit TLoU, causing it to have a lack of random female enemies." position.
I understand you, and you're actually furthering my case here. Whereas in older games we were fine with characters just being badass because they can, we're starting to place more importance on characterization than before.
People are complaining about dudebros that kick ass and nothing else constantly being the go-to main character. Ever since TLOU and TWD, I think people are starting to want more from all characters. If devs are so terrible at character development, why not just change things up as simple as possible? Instead of white dudebro comes to kick ass and save the day, why not dudegirl comes to kick ass and save the day? I guess that's what Lara has become but it's not something everyone always expects, and that's what we want ~ variety.
I don't see the reboot as trying to justify Lara's skills, more of an attempt to give an idea of how she became that badass we know. By doing the reboot, they've shown how Lara, like so many of us, has had to grow into her power, it wasn't given to her, she made it happen. Thus, she's more human.
Whether her development is perfect is debatable, but compared to a lot of other characterization females get in games, Lara's is interesting because she's kinda like the typical hero story ~ quite lackluster but she develops just like the dudebros before her and has been praised for it. Her game even sold well.
Again, it may not be a story we're big on but it's not typical for a female in gaming. One thing you gotta think about is that the gender stereotype isn't there. This is valuable to showing the male audience that women are people too. Not trophies or simply things to desire.
People complained about how sexualized old Lara was pretty often didn't they back then? She was a strong character but I remember complaints about her image. So yeah, you're right, they definitely would nowadays.
The fact that she's portrayed as being more human is probably what helps her most. Her story might be terrible but it's a step in the right direction.
I kinda agree. I'm not commending the story they've given her, but I'm more respectful that they've attempted to even flesh her out and did it quite unconventional.
It could definitely be better.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yeah, no disagreement there. I guess I should at least appreciate that they tried.
Rihanna Pratchett doesn't seem to be a very good writer, unfortunately (I say "seem" because I haven't played all of the games she wrote so I'll give her the benefit of doubt... but she's no Amy Hennig that's for sure).I'm going to say its because there is no active movement for it. There is obviously a very active community for women and they are getting a ton of attention with a bit of progress. Women make up 50% of this world so they are much more common in storytelling.
For many decades, America pretended we, black people, didn't exist. We weren't anywhere in the media. And while I've never seen a push for better black representation, I hear a lot of celebration for when it does happen.
Lee from TWD was great. He deserved all the praise he got. I believe once the feminist stuff calms down, we should move onto minority representation. Someone has to be our Anita and take the I-swear-it's-not-racist death and lynching threats for us, and then we can start pushing for a movement...?
because Lara Croft's name comes with a wallet attached
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Sure.
And I suspect the new Lara game would have sold just as with its big budget huge marketing campaign reboot with a story where she was still traditional Lara.
But Aiden Pierce didn't show up with a brand name cachet. A lot of people think Clara is a more interesting character than Aiden anyway.
yeh she would have sold just fine regardless, but someone in CD or SE thought it best if they shoe-horned her character into the generic video game protagonist mold so she could have a fleeting semblance of a story arc that could be used in the marketing materials
for what it's worth, I had to look up Aiden Pierce because I have no idea who he is
for what it's worth, I had to look up Aiden Pierce because I have no idea who he is
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Which I think sort of proves my point. "Dude from wash_doges" could have just as easily been "Chick from wash_doges".
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Point me to any studies done on what the 'typical' Japanese face looks like. I'd say that, especially in Japan, there are a ton of different types of faces--many of them have what you might consider to be more Caucasian-like features.
SolidSnakex
Member
I think Hollywood has a much bigger issue with race than they do with women when it comes to hiring for roles. This interview is probably the best example that I can find of that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRf_xcHCkI8#t=45
Several of the most well respected directors in Hollywood are asked why they don't cast black or latino actors in lead roles. Listen to their response.
The game industry never has and never will promote itself as having a Nazi-like agenda.
...OK, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about when what looks to be self-hate walks in the door on a conversation like this. You want someone to sift through all of Japan looking for some "caucasian like" Japanese people and overlooking the majority of the people to prove that anime/manga represents authentic Japanese features? You know how self-hating that sounds right? These few people that you're talking about aren't represented in most Japanese popular magazines, movies or music, etc. but according to you they absolutely exist.
Here's the thing I've heard this argument before too and to be honest it came down to someone trying to convince me that someone I would never in a million years confuse with a white person was Japanese with "caucasian like" features. Of course my next question is (if there are truly caucasian like Japanese people) Why would you help popularize an idealized self-image of a feature set that was anomalous and conveniently attributed to another group of people unless you truly didn't like yourself?
To add to the mix here that eyelid cosmetic surgery is the most common/popular cosmetic surgery in Japan and Asia sheds light on one of the real world damaging effects of poor media representation, the fact that most Japanese and Asian skin care products have damaging bleaching agents in them is another. Caucasian-ization of beauty standards is real in some places.
Video games are not solely responsible for this, but by continuing a media tradition of racially biased development to the extreme it's making a significant contribution of influence of the same inculcated message from other media to those that play a lot of games.
activatethesmile
Member
That particular one character is very questionable though. It's like they said "let's find all the stereotypes of black people and cram it together into one character and see how it turned out."
But that story fails when she starts mowing down bad guys (experienced mercenaries vs a lonely girl that never killed a human being before) left and right several minutes into the game. And in original games (by Core) her power was never "given to her" - her love for adventuring came from an airplane crash and being stranded in Himalayas. After that she become interested in archeology and could afford being mentored by a famous archaeologist Werner Von Croy (who "died" during one of their adventures by being reckless and neglecting writings on one of the artifacts). That was a much more natural background than what the reboot offers.
Because cultural ideals aren't automatically identical to cultural norms?
It also strikes me as arrogant (and vaguely offensive) to assume that finding pale skin, large, luminous eyes and small noses attractive, and deliberately exaggerating those attributes in art, means that Japanese people are filled with self-loathing and secretly yearn to be white.
Start your own gaming studio filled with femanazis, then you can write a story about how a group of women of mixed race and sexual preference save the world from a group of heterosexual, white males that aim to keep women in the kitchen for all of eternity.
Talk about first world problems....
Talk about first world problems....
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
I honestly feel like there will always be a case of drowning out in this instance. Minority representation will only succeed and be taken seriously IF female representation succeeds first. That will be the catalyst. Both issues can't seem to co-exist at any one time within the industry.
Or you have French white dudes writing characters like Nilin in Remember Me and actually doing an okay job all things considered. Or you have Ubisoft Sofia and Jill Murray doing a decent job with Aveline in AC: Liberation. Or the DLC for AC4: Black Flag.
If Eidos Montreal had just fundamentally basic awareness of negative stereotypes, they would've known that the character was offensive in the context of the history of media representation . Apparently they went ahead with it, and thus they get called out for it, understandably so.
There are a lot of cultures where those features are held in ideal for better or worse, korea, china, countries in africa. The lighter skinned with smaller more caucasian features are held up as examples of the most beautiful. So much so in many countries like korea people bleach their skin. Doesn't make it right...but it makes it something to consider
"...utterred the straight white dude"
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
Gotta be a joke post right? You couldn't possible be that stupid and/or tone deaf.
Surely not...
Or "watch_dogs has terrible characterization regardless of gender, full stop."
Nova Bovington
Member
And in the west, white people do anything to get a tan. Humans are very vain and anything uncommon can be seen as exotic and desirable. It has nothing to do with self loathing, at least not to the degree people make it out to be. It's just simple economics, really. There isn't a lot of it so it is worth more. This is especially true in Eastern-Asian countries, which tend to be quite xenophobic.
In light of the topic though, I think the issue is kind of moot when 90% of video game characters have the emotional depth of a puddle. Picking your protagonists from a diversity bingo chart doesn't actually do much to help gaming at all if there is nothing else to empathize with. That said, I'm certainly not averse to more diversity in protagonists, if only to break up the monotony of grumpy-white-gamin-man, I just think the root of the problem stems from elsewhere. All you're going to accomplish by shouting "Just make [blank] protagonists, because [reasons]!" is pandering and affirmative action type of positive discrimination.
To be concise: I think that better writing across the board will at best lead to more diverse characters eventually and at worst will lead to characters that are more relate-able and easier to empathize with regardless of who the protagonist is or who is playing the game.
Edit: I do, however, think that a lack of diversity in the industry itself is a big problem. But even with that in mind I have to admit I'm glad that -internationally speaking- we're not as bad off as Hollywood. At least we have more than enough diversity in white people.
originalself
Neo Member
Seems to me that most games with an actual story have decent diversity. The Mass Effect series comes to mind. Not sure why people expect more from shallow games.
QuantumZebra
Member
Don't really care if this is sarcastic or not but holy shit I'd love a remake of the original PD on Wii U
Kamina
Golden Boy
While it is getting better and better, and more females are appearing as playable characters in games, it's not quite there yet where I can honestly say that I'm content with how gaming looks like today. It's not as bad as it used to be, and I have never really cared that much about whether or not I can play as a female character or not but sometimes it bothers me a bit that a majority of games are still this male dominated thing. It's definitely getting better and I see more and more games popping up with female characters that aren't there just for fan service purposes.
There's a ton of games out there now with kick ass awesome females in them that I like and though I've never had a problem playing as a male character I wouldn't mind more of these girls in my games. As a female gamer that would make me happier. This isn't that big of a problem anyway for me, but I can see where people are coming from when they express their negative feelings about this subject.
What I'd love to see more of is the ability to pick my gender in games, I'd really love that. More customization of your character would be great, that way everyone would be happy.
There's a ton of games out there now with kick ass awesome females in them that I like and though I've never had a problem playing as a male character I wouldn't mind more of these girls in my games. As a female gamer that would make me happier. This isn't that big of a problem anyway for me, but I can see where people are coming from when they express their negative feelings about this subject.
What I'd love to see more of is the ability to pick my gender in games, I'd really love that. More customization of your character would be great, that way everyone would be happy.
If you want to read more about it - Kotaku and head over to comments.
Honestly I had to head to the comments section to understand fully what was the issue about it.
The way I see it, is that the developer is saying she had to "push" Lara Croft into that direction because it is expected from the dominant group aka "white male gamers" to protect a woman in video games or it is generally expected. The issue is the way she justifies the change not the change it self in my opinion (because granted I have never been a fan of Tomb Raider so I cannot comment whether I would have liked that change or not). Personally I am all into going from bad-ass-attitude to feeling vulnerable and vice versa because I believe it explores more depth of the persona you are playing.
In that respect, if Shepard was only I-don't-take-shit-from-anyone would have bored me to death. I still think Lara Croft regardless is one of the most empowering female lead characters but I think making her as vulnerable as that would transition better for a sequel.
In skimming through that, basically it also states that of who they polled, the female (teen) gamers sink fewer hours into games. Among (teen) gamers who sink fewer hours into games, they are more likely to play puzzle games (similar to female bias towards puzzle games). The RPG section of this nearly matches the female percentage who play RPGS (listed at 29%). Female gamers are also biased towards using the phone to play games, but a large percentage of them own multiple platforms (60% of all respondants). The sample size seems pretty evenly split too. If 86% game on a console, but 96% of boys play on a console and 76% of females game on a console (hypothetical 100 boys 96 game console, 100 girls 76 -> 172 total = 86%).
I guess the only thing to gather from this is the next gen of alleged female gamers, just don't have time for RPG games.
I think the more interesting parts are when they look at the socio-economic breakdowns and show things like low income having a bias towards driving/simulation, survival horror, and adventure games. That combined with the paragraph above it suggests that if you are young black male who is living in a lower income family (sub 50k), you are more likely to play Racing, sports, fighting, and survival horror games than anyone else (now look to what releases annually...). To contrast that, if you are white (or hispanic) you are more likely to play MMO games opposed to those other genres, in addition to rythm games (~21% of gamers as referenced earlier in the article for MMO). Which makes no sense to me, so I have to be reading something wrong there or that adults make up the majority of the FPS sales for personal use (i'm going with games like GTA being classified as "action", since I cringe at what kind of statement it makes if it were labeled as "adventure". From the article: "Lower-income teens more likely to play certain game genres.
Lower-income teens from families earning under $50,000 per year are more likely than higher-income teens to play racing games (80% vs. 70%), adventure games (72% vs. 63%), or survival horror games (40% vs. 28%).").
All in all though, it is an interesting snapshot of gaming in 2007-2008. Were RPG releases in that period just unappealing for certain denominations, or is it part of a larger trend? I mean Guitar Hero was listed as the most popular game after all...
CadetMahoney
Member
Yeah, that's the problem. Here are some comparison images that lend to this topic:
I personally don't mind they look more western with light eyes, since I've been seeing this in nearly every anime that I can't be bothered to see it as a big deal. Depends on how you look at it.
Also remember Japanese and many other cultures revere learning English. English schools everywhere in many Asian countries.
Kaan
Banned
(Today, 01:14 PM)
Boss Man
Member
It's so weird that this is some kind of a bullet point.
That's not a very realistic way of looking at it though. The alternative is that she isn't pushed into it, and there's nothing approaching realistic character development. Traumatic events change people. She could've crumbled, but she's a bad-ass as you say. I think people are over analysing things. The gamer is playing as Lara Croft. Males can play as female characters and vice versa.
StreetDisciple
Member
What percentage of "developers" who are making these games black/female/minorities? I would then guess your problem lies in that number.
nintendo understands that women play games more than most pubs do. they're smart to drive the point home when they can.
i love this place. i wish i could see where the neogaf banned idiots post so i can see their rage
I am not following you. If you go from the first to the last quote it basically tells you that people playing Lara Croft
- Feel pity for her
- Know she is hopeless
- Know she cannot pull through with out someone's help
- Know she cannot pull through with out someone's guidance
- Know she lacks confidence
The last thing I think when playing a lead female character is her being a woman that is hopeless and that I should feel pity for. And the way Rosen talks assumes that the rape scene was included to highlight the feeling of feeling sorry for her and the need to over-protect her. I certainly don't need a rape scene to root for a woman let alone.
His wording is bad. Really, really bad. And that is Rosen's fault - There are so many fucking assumptions that are worded in a such an awful way to hint wrongly social perceptions of women's ability as lead characters in modern video games.
If the story doesn't fit a female lead, why do it?
The same reason why female lead movies usually suck, they are usually involving intense action and violence.. Being caused by a 100 pound beautiful chick.. It's just not believable to me.. Not to mention the poorly choreographed fight scenes.
That movie with Jolie, Salt, was actually the best action movie with a female lead that I've ever seen. It was believable and also a great story with a huge budget.
If game studios start releasing shit like Charlie's Angels (great example of why action films need actual female leads that can fight, or at least make it look believable in screen) then those games won't sell well.
As to why most male leads are white? I have no idea.. It's not like it's only american studios putting out games with white protagonists.
I mean look at anime, it's a Japanese cartoon.. Yet most characters look Caucasian with spiky hair. Blondes, blue eyes, with no asian attributes.
I feel for the female gamers, but at the same time.. If they are offended due to the lack of female leads, just imagine when something in the story feels misogynistic/sexist.. It will open up another argument.
Personally, as misogynistic as Rockstar may seem in it's games, I believe they would make the best game with a female lead.
But like I said, there will be heavy criticism if she isn't this virgin princess or some thing to that effect..
I mean look at the whole mgs thing.. (Spoiler? Ahead) when they shove a bomb in that chicks vagina and possibly raped her.. The internet had a titty attack.. It's a fucking fake story.
For the record, I love women, and would love to see more video games and movies involving female leads.. But none or that Hollywood unrealistic shit.. One girl army with uninspired stories. I have a daughter, two sisters, a mom and countless female aunts and cousins.. So I feel for them.. But let's not just adjust character genders and race just to make a few people happy.
If you want a game to be a certain way, go make one.
Btw, GTA has had more than just white protagonists. (CJ, Francisco Lopez, Franklin, etc)
Even call of duty, you play as an African American in a few of them.
That brings up another point.. Remember when cod added females to the mp? Ign had a big article titled "how do we feel about stabbing females?" Or something to that effect. It was ridiculous.. You put girls in the game and when they see them getting stabbed or killed they catch sissy fits? Come on
Tldr: as long as the story fits, and is believable, a female dog can be the lead as far as I care. You can't just switch genders.. Imagine 24 starring Jackeline Bauer.. Shit would've been canceled in the first season.
Prepared for the backlash.. It will just help further prove why games are in the state they are today. Some people are too sensitive.
Who cares what color or gender the lead is if the story fits and is a great game to play?
The same reason why female lead movies usually suck, they are usually involving intense action and violence.. Being caused by a 100 pound beautiful chick.. It's just not believable to me.. Not to mention the poorly choreographed fight scenes.
That movie with Jolie, Salt, was actually the best action movie with a female lead that I've ever seen. It was believable and also a great story with a huge budget.
If game studios start releasing shit like Charlie's Angels (great example of why action films need actual female leads that can fight, or at least make it look believable in screen) then those games won't sell well.
As to why most male leads are white? I have no idea.. It's not like it's only american studios putting out games with white protagonists.
I mean look at anime, it's a Japanese cartoon.. Yet most characters look Caucasian with spiky hair. Blondes, blue eyes, with no asian attributes.
I feel for the female gamers, but at the same time.. If they are offended due to the lack of female leads, just imagine when something in the story feels misogynistic/sexist.. It will open up another argument.
Personally, as misogynistic as Rockstar may seem in it's games, I believe they would make the best game with a female lead.
But like I said, there will be heavy criticism if she isn't this virgin princess or some thing to that effect..
I mean look at the whole mgs thing.. (Spoiler? Ahead) when they shove a bomb in that chicks vagina and possibly raped her.. The internet had a titty attack.. It's a fucking fake story.
For the record, I love women, and would love to see more video games and movies involving female leads.. But none or that Hollywood unrealistic shit.. One girl army with uninspired stories. I have a daughter, two sisters, a mom and countless female aunts and cousins.. So I feel for them.. But let's not just adjust character genders and race just to make a few people happy.
If you want a game to be a certain way, go make one.
Btw, GTA has had more than just white protagonists. (CJ, Francisco Lopez, Franklin, etc)
Even call of duty, you play as an African American in a few of them.
That brings up another point.. Remember when cod added females to the mp? Ign had a big article titled "how do we feel about stabbing females?" Or something to that effect. It was ridiculous.. You put girls in the game and when they see them getting stabbed or killed they catch sissy fits? Come on
Tldr: as long as the story fits, and is believable, a female dog can be the lead as far as I care. You can't just switch genders.. Imagine 24 starring Jackeline Bauer.. Shit would've been canceled in the first season.
Prepared for the backlash.. It will just help further prove why games are in the state they are today. Some people are too sensitive.
Who cares what color or gender the lead is if the story fits and is a great game to play?
RockTurtle
Member
ehhh i disagree with some of this. videogames are escapism, and break the realm of "realism".
I know Angelina Jolie can't supplex a 200 pound man. But that doesn't mean RINOA can't fight 2 story monsters in final fantasy.
You mean a bitch can be the lead?
Again, I didn't say the story was great, nor did I praise it. I'm just commending the devs for trying to flesh Lara out. Sure, it's the generic story that we see super often, but seeing it given to a girl is fairly unique.
This topic is about why devs keep using the generic white dudebro all the time when they could at least spice things up by trying something different. The devs kinda did that with Lara. Her overly done story has been told by the many dudebros before her, but she's one of the first dudegirls.
That story can be assigned to anyone of any gender, race, etc. So why is it always given to the same guy over and over?
Lara is a interesting take on this and hopefully more variety will emerge from it and we can stay away from stereotypes.
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