Thanks for outlining your opinion with logic instead of personal attacks. I'd expect no less from GAF.
Why does GAF lean so much to the left in politics?
- Thread starter Schattenjäger
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Thanks for outlining your opinion with logic instead of personal attacks. I'd expect no less from GAF.
Freezie KO
Banned
When you're on the side of logic, you don't need to use it.
Funnily enough it was Dick Cheney who said that Reagan taught us that deficits don't matter."
blame space
Banned
empty vessel for president
AFAIK you haven't lead a group of posters from GAF to another forum and then took another group of posters from that forum to another forum and then took another group of posters from that forum to another forum OR collaborated with reactionaries, so are you really that much of a Trot?
(Forgive the red humor, the opportunities on "heavily left-leaning GAF" are few and far between.)
NullPointer
Member
This is truth right here.
And considering I just finished serving my GAF ban term for anti-conservative rhetoric I'd say things here aren't as dire or one-sided as some would believe.
Make an argument, back up your points, and add to the discussion.
The right have reduced themselves so much I have reservoirs of juice at my disposal to waste. You're welcome!
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I honestly cannot fathom as to how anyone would think the private market would be better off handling jobs, education, and healthcare. Corporations are inherently greedy, evil, and facilitator in widening the income gap.
Seriously, it boggles my mind Republicans are for all of that.
Seriously, it boggles my mind Republicans are for all of that.
Gamecocks625
Member
whatever dude.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
The population of GAF certainly tends to trend liberal but it's far from the oppresive conservative witch hunt some make it out to be. Complaining that a conservative viewpoint gets challenged frequently and intensely here is askin to whining about a pro-Obama thread getting swarmed by Tea Party types on a Fox News forum, only there the moderation probably does actively try to dick over anyone with ideas to the left of Santorum.
The problem I see is that many conservative posters seem to think that a fair discussion means arguing with kid gloves, getting frustrated and butthurt when a talking point is answered with CBO data and heaps of nuanced historical precedent.
The problem I see is that many conservative posters seem to think that a fair discussion means arguing with kid gloves, getting frustrated and butthurt when a talking point is answered with CBO data and heaps of nuanced historical precedent.
I don't dislike many of the ideologies of the "right", least the right of many years ago, but I do have a serious dislike for the majority of those representing them for the past 10 years. Abysmal.
Bornstellar
Member
Yet the first (and oft-quoted) post of this thread does none of this, instead opting to parrot the endorsed (and pretentious) view of liberal = educated, conservative = uneducated.
Bornstellar
Member
blame space
Banned
why do you think they call it liberal arts?
Too often people identify themselves by their political affiliation - it becomes a personal trait and not, as it should be, a set of arguments that are constantly in flux. This is an ideal and it's hard to even personally uphold this viewpoint, but it's something we should understand and work towards. The persecution complex in this thread may suggest that people identify too strongly with their beliefs and are not willing (or at least don't find it personally valuable) to communicate their ideas to others.
I've yet to see an instance in reading and (only rarely, unfortunately) participating in PoliGAF where a conservative viewpoint resulted in a ban. In fact, there's typically a very healthy exchange of ideas in those threads. That said, GAF does seem to lean left in most political topics, and I'd welcome an influx of well-reasoned conservative opinions - I know I've changed or questioned my stance on many topics and issues having read through discussions on this forum and elsewhere.
I've yet to see an instance in reading and (only rarely, unfortunately) participating in PoliGAF where a conservative viewpoint resulted in a ban. In fact, there's typically a very healthy exchange of ideas in those threads. That said, GAF does seem to lean left in most political topics, and I'd welcome an influx of well-reasoned conservative opinions - I know I've changed or questioned my stance on many topics and issues having read through discussions on this forum and elsewhere.
Young age (and thus, more liberal) + non american audience (politics in the US are tilted to the right) + spiral of silence affecting conservatives + videogaming / nerd public (not left wing per se, but far more socially liberal than your average citizen) = Neogaf's leaning to the left wing
Manmademan
Member
yeah, about that:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/17/in-search-of-ideologues-in-america
College educated voters have trended liberal/democratic for a VERY long time. The republican party (and the majority of conservatives in this country) have typically gotten a lot of mileage pandering towards white voters with high school degrees.
you can argue all you want about how college doesn't necessarily mean "educated", but facts are facts.
edit: because there's a lot of text, and most won't click it-
I saw your flippant dismissal of the statistics posted.
How about you provide an actual counter-argument proving otherwise instead?
Where is your proof that liberals aren't generally better educated?
Bornstellar
Member
Not understanding progressive tax systems is a common conservative trait.
I'd be curious to see studies looking into the concept of the youth being more liberal, and why that is. The obvious 'go-to' answer is that they are more a 'hope floats' generation and don't like to deal in gritty realities, but I'm also inclined to think it could be a combination of that along with the fact older folk grew up in different times and different social circles, and that the youth of today aren't going to suddenly turn Repub as they get older.
Manmademan
Member
read it, and disagree with your analysis. So doesNate Silver
College educated voters have been going increasingly towards the democratic party since the 80s, and every election shows this gap getting larger, as it is with minorities, women, gays, and non christians. So there really isn't any room to dispute that Liberals and modern democrats are more educated as a whole, which is what the poster i replied to was complaining was some kind of pretentious liberal fantasy. It's not. Liberals are better educated.
Again, you can dispute that the working class/trades are also full of intelligent people (and I tend to agree) but that's a different discussion.
I personally lean towards the right, always made more sense to me. I live in Europe though so I'm not the american conservative type. I'm proud of our social states in Europe. When it comes to gay rights etc. I've never really thought much about that. "Live and let live" I suppose though I know it's not as easy as that.
edit:
I'm <25 and have a degree.
edit:
I'm <25 and have a degree.
Wasn't that Stalin?
ZING
Vermillion
Banned
If only.
Manmademan
Member
in comparison to Europe, both major parties here are right wing. there is no left here.
If you're "live and let live" in terms of gay rights in the US, then congratulations! you're a left wing commie liberal.
Bornstellar
Member
The burden of proof goes the other way. I will dismiss the statistics if the survey used to provide them is poorly created. Using the 7 questions of the survey, I would show up as a liberal since they do not provide any nuance. It is a survey of extremes. Government regulation needed to protect public interest? Of course! It's a matter of how much is necessary. Oppose banning books with "dangerous ideas"? Well, yes, but it depends, what are "dangerous ideas". And what does this have to do with liberalism or conservatism anyway?
They are garbage questions. Anyone who's taken at least an introductory stats class should be able to see that right away.
SnakeswithLasers
Member
Intellectually valid doesn't mean it would work in the real world. It's a philosophy and should remain there.
blame space
Banned
america is just too big. let's just cut out the south as a start.
Bornstellar
Member
Yet the last link I responded to here which is also the most up to date, shows a dead heat in college graduation. It's also a fallacy to use data from an election and to try and split the conservative/liberal divide along party lines.
I've never actually seen a conservative get banned in the PoliGAF thread. Usually they get banned because they enter into a graveyard thread somewhere on their own and get banned in other ways. I don't think they always get their fair shake (and mentioned recently that they do tend to get dog-piled), but certainly not banned, and often times conversation does come up.
South America?
Its quite simple, if you claim that liberals aren't generally better educated then show us your evidence.
Bornstellar
Member
On the contrary, the claim was made that they are in the first post of this thread. I am the one asking for that proof, and now you are asking for proof of my asking for proof?
Right.
I do not claim that they are not - rather, I am asking whoever will to step up and defend the position. Several have, and I've made counter-points. This is how a debate works.
Manmademan
Member
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.
The pew research study as well as the figures nate silver pulls shows that those who identify as conservative and vote republican are more likely to have only a high school education than those who identify as liberal, and vote democratic. This is what I'm arguing, and that's what both of those articles point out.
college graduation rates of conservatives vs. liberals is a completely different discussion.
I'm not sure the numbers say what you think they're saying.
edit: and no, I don't think it's disingenuous to equate liberal with democratic and conservative with republican, since the parties themselves (though this is more often republicans than not) go out of their way to do this. Or do I need to pull ads and quotes from republicans blasting each other over who is the "true conservative?"
blame space
Banned
haha. yes. south america.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Utter bullshit.
Now if you, say, go on a tirade against gay rights? You'll probably get banned.
You don't get banned for being a conservative on GAF. You get banned for being one of the hate filled "bad" ones. Funny enough? You can be a liberal on GAF and get banned for the same thing!
Bornstellar
Member
Yet here I am. And yes, "college graduation rates of conservatives vs. liberals" IS the discussion since that's what left and right refer to.
NullPointer
Member
Maybe part of the reason many conservative posters are quiet about their views stems from socially conservative ideas being nigh impossible to defend rationally. You can't have an honest discussion when one side holds a bible or past tradition as the be-all-end-all of the argument.
(if this sounds completely full of shit I'm more than happy to be shown the errors of my ways.)
But there's plenty left that can be argued with evidence and data, especially policy and economic views.
(if this sounds completely full of shit I'm more than happy to be shown the errors of my ways.)
But there's plenty left that can be argued with evidence and data, especially policy and economic views.
Vermillion
Banned
People follow others. And let's be honest, the Republican Party often seems cold. I've seen one person on GAF who has brought up legitimate points "against" a policy most of GAF was for. And some of the responses to that were that they'd never heard those reasons before. That it sounded like someone that wanted to implement said policy, but was worried about the "how." The way the party is represented often does a disservice to them.
Bornstellar
Member
Use data to explain to me why something is right or wrong. Even "rational" arguments have some emotional component.
NullPointer
Member
Read the next line in that post.
Manmademan
Member
Let's back up a bit. You responded to my post to another poster, where I claimed that Liberals/Democrats as a whole were better educated (i.e. more likely to hold a degree) than conservatives/Republicans, who were more likely to hold only a high school degree.
This is NOT the same as the college graduation rate. Those who never bother to attend college in the first place don't factor into college graduation rates at all.
Bornstellar
Member
Sorry, I read "on the left" instead of "left". But again, my argument is that the liberal viewpoint on social issues is also informed by some emotional component.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
But it isn't necessarily as dogmatic as much of social conservatism, which is where, IMO, most of the problems arise from.
Hey, it's no skin off my nose if you want to prioritize making excuses for yourself over any attempt to elevate your own rhetoric. This is the third time you've attempted to use the red herring of "but other unspecified posts are also bad", and I'm more than happy to point it out every time you try to get away with it. What other people have posted isn't relevant, because you control the content of your own posts.
You've made it explicitly clear that you don't care that much about expressing your opinion. If your time is too valuable to spend looking through your post history, mine certainly is as well. I'm more interested in making the point that no-one can contribute positively to a discussion while they're unwilling to make an effort to do anything other than make excuses.
It's very silly of you to show up with bat and glove, then act surprised when people expect you to play ball.
Bornstellar
Member
I did misinterpret what you meant by college graduation rates. I am speaking of education level achieved.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/05/04/section-3-demographics-and-news-sources/
Again, according to this, the percentage of "solid liberals" and "staunch conservatives" is about the same.
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