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[UncleSporky]

DownWithTheShip doesn't need to say anything else. I feel bad for people who post here with insider connections/info, it must suck getting hounded the way they do.

And occasionally getting posted on Kotaku...

 

[wsippel]

Some GAF posters have tried to convince me that capacitive touch screens are incredibly inaccurate and completely unsuitable for gaming. Nevermind the thousands of modern phone games and applications that accurately respond to touch input, including my phone's web browser, even when the links are incredibly tiny and I'm poking them with my finger.

Then I remember how inaccurate and unresponsive the 3DS's touch screen is when I try to use the browser, even with the stylus (although that could just be remarkably shitty software!).


The main selling points for resistive touch screens I've heard are that you can draw on them more accurately (on a 854x480 or so display/input, this is an incredibly attractive and important feature), and capacitive touch screens have issues with the skin types of some older people, according to Nintendo. This doesn't exactly seem to be a concern shared by every other modern electronics manufacturer in the world, but ok, I guess that's what a capacitive stylus is for! They can use that if they have input issues, the rest of us can just tap things naturally with our fingers, use multi-inputs, etc.

But again, some people on GAF want to act like things like pinch-zoom are totally unnaturally and unnecessary, that we'll never want to hit more than one button on a touch screen at once, and that if we used a capacitive touch screen, it would be so awful that taps on the top left would register on the bottom right, because they're just that bad. God, it's a wonder modern phones even work at all.

It is.

Also, capacitive touch is never as precise as resistive. Software approximates the point of interest, usually with a few added routines to "guess" which point of interest you intended to touch (in your browser example, the browser knows there's an interactive item in the vicinity and simply assumes the rest). It's convenient and better suited for devices like smartphones, but it's less precise, not to mention far less reliable. For example, if you have very dry skin or wet hands (imagine your hands getting sweaty during a very taxing game), capacitive touch hardly works anymore. Resistive screens don't care about that. You also really need to consider the completely different ergonomics of the uPad. It's not a tablet. Most games will use the touchscreen for a row of virtual buttons, and that's it. You don't need multitouch for that, but you do need the best possibly reliability. That's why resistive touch is the way to go.

 

[UncleSporky]

Plus if for some reason you really enjoy using your fingers to control games...you still can! Feel free to do so!

They just don't do multitouch, which I'm not convinced is a necessity when you've got buttons.

You can still "pinch zoom:" hold down L1 and drag the stylus left and right. Done.

 

[DownWithTheShip]

DownWithTheShip, we need an update. Could you at least tell us what department you work in (seeing as you say to be uninvolved with the project)?

From what little you've said already, I'm guessing you're a hardware affiliate for Nintendo, seeing as you knew about dev kit releases etc.

Don't want to scare the fish away though, so I won't burrow anymore.

Last question though, when did you lean that your company held a WiiU? Is there a large department working on it?

I work in support. I can't be more specific because when I eventually reveal the company I work for I will be easily identifiable as there are only a few people in my particular group.

Other than the company I work for, i've already said everything I know. I only spoke up because I thought it was extremely cool and can hopefully get my hands on a complete unit. Not sure when that might happen.

 

[Übermatik]

I work in support. I can't be more specific because when I eventually reveal the company I work for I will be easily identifiable as there are only a few people in my particular group.

Other than the company I work for, i've already said everything I know. I only spoke up because I thought it was extremely cool and can hopefully get my hands on a complete unit. Not sure when that might happen.

Ah okay, thanks dude. Appreciate the response! We're so low on info I couldn't help but ask... Here's hoping you get a peek at it/hands on to see how it's developed since E3.
Don't want to jeopardise your job though, fully understand your need to be careful.

 

[blu]

When I looked at this awhile back, newegg had drives that were up to 12x right now. That's 432Mbps (54MB/s). From what I've seen, that may still not be enough (or at least what devs might want) for streaming straight off the disc. We'll see what Nintendo has come up with though.

Bandwidth is not, by far, the main issue when streaming from an optical disk.

 

[Azure Dream]

It is.

I knew I shouldn't leave that easy out, but either way, it does mean that having a resistive touch screen doesn't guarantee accurate input.

Also, capacitive touch is never as precise as resistive. Software approximates the point of interest, usually with a few added routines to "guess" which point of interest you intended to touch (in your browser example, the browser knows there's an interactive item in the vicinity and simply assumes the rest).

See, I know that, but with any decent software, it works. And the thing is, I browse GAF on it, pretty zoomed out, and considering I'm poking tiny links with the fat of my fingertip, I'd say about 95% of the time it not only picks the correct thread link, but whether I intended to go to one of the numbered pages, which I do sometimes, or the Last Page option.

"Well what about that 5%?" Well when the links are just a few pixels big and my finger lacking a stylus point, so to speak, I don't expect it to work literally every time, but usually it impresses me.

If it works with that degree of accuracy, software-assisted or no, then it's going to work fine for Wii U gaming and applications, and bring all sorts of added options for including it. You just aren't going to paint the Mona Lisa on it. Probably. Some people out there will still find a way because that's what they do.

It's convenient and better suited for devices like smartphones, but it's less precise, not to mention far less reliable. For example, if you have very dry skin or wet hands (imagine your hands getting sweaty during a very taxing game), capacitive touch hardly works anymore.

I've never had an issue with "dry skin" input, and if your hands are soaking wet with sweat, you should probably put down the controller in the first place and towel them off. Because that's getting pretty gross.

Resistive screens don't care about that. You also really need to consider the completely different ergonomics of the uPad. It's not a tablet. Most games will use the touchscreen for a row of virtual buttons, and that's it. You don't need multitouch for that, but you do need the best possibly reliability. That's why resistive touch is the way to go.

One of the first games demonstrated, Ghost Recon Online, used it for a 3D virtual map. You expect to be able to pinch-zoom maps, but instead the controller screen real estate has to be taken up by big zoom in and out buttons, big enough for you to hit in a hurry.

And again, what if you want to, I don't know, hit more than one button at once? What about games that use just the touch screen?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Some GAF posters have tried to convince me that capacitive touch screens are incredibly inaccurate and completely unsuitable for gaming. Nevermind the thousands of modern phone games and applications that accurately respond to touch input, including my phone's web browser, even when the links are incredibly tiny and I'm poking them with my finger.

Then I remember how inaccurate and unresponsive the 3DS's touch screen is when I try to use the browser, even with the stylus (although that could just be remarkably shitty software!).


The main selling points for resistive touch screens I've heard are that you can draw on them more accurately (on a 854x480 or so display/input, this is an incredibly attractive and important feature), and capacitive touch screens have issues with the skin types of some older people, according to Nintendo. This doesn't exactly seem to be a concern shared by every other modern electronics manufacturer in the world, but ok, I guess that's what a capacitive stylus is for! They can use that if they have input issues, the rest of us can just tap things naturally with our fingers, use multi-inputs, etc.

But again, some people on GAF want to act like things like pinch-zoom are totally unnaturally and unnecessary, that we'll never want to hit more than one button on a touch screen at once, and that if we used a capacitive touch screen, it would be so awful that taps on the top left would register on the bottom right, because they're just that bad. God, it's a wonder modern phones even work at all.

You seem to be making an argument against me using things I never said and applying them to random people I've never heard of.

At no point did I say capacitive screens are bad. I have at least three devices with them. I just said that resistive screens are not the complete abomination people keep trying to paint them as. It's not nearly as simple as "This one has multi-touch and multi is bigger than not multi, so go to hell, Nintendo."

 

[bgassassin]

Bandwidth is not, by far, the main issue when streaming from an optical disk.

Oh no you don't. You're not going to say that and leave with out explaining.

 

[Übermatik]

Oh no you don't. You're not going to say that and leave with out explaining.

Grab that man!

 

[Azure Dream]

You seem to be making an argument against me using things I never said and applying them to random people I've never heard of.

Oh, it wasn't really directed at you, just more of a counter to your declaration. And no, that's not the same thing, if you were so inclined to suggest that, I was simply choosing to make my own declaration in the same manner you had.

I'm quite confused by "people I've never heard of." Are you trying to imply no one on GAF has ever spoken of capacitive inputs as inaccurate or unsuitable for gaming? There does seem to be some implication that since you haven't heard of these people, that this invalidates my argument somehow?

At no point did I say capacitive screens are bad. I have at least three devices with them. I just said that resistive screens are not the complete abomination people keep trying to paint them as. It's not nearly as simple as "This one has multi-touch and multi is bigger than not multi, so go to hell, Nintendo."

And my point was that capacitive touch screens were not as bad as some people keep trying to paint them. And that wasn't your point, I believe you stated the following:

Apple did a good job convincing the world that capacitive touch screens are the only ones that work.

Nevermind the fact that resistive screens are better at some things, nope, the DS used it and thus it sucks.

Now, the implication I read from that isn't that resistive touch screens really aren't all that bad. To me, that reads as if I've been brainwashed somehow by Apple, despite never owning one of their products in my life, and that I primarily dislike resistive touch screens because the DS used them, which is simply not the case.

 

[UncleSporky]

One of the first games demonstrated, Ghost Recon Online, used it for a 3D virtual map. You expect to be able to pinch-zoom maps, but instead the controller screen real estate has to be taken up by big zoom in and out buttons, big enough for you to hit in a hurry.

Actually it doesn't. Like I said above, set it up so all you need to do is hold L1 and drag the stylus.

 

[m.i.s.]

You do know Nintendo was losing on the GC when they dropped it to $99 right?

Link?

 

[JJConrad]

I knew I shouldn't leave that easy out, but either way, it does mean that having a resistive touch screen doesn't guarantee accurate input.


See, I know that, but with any decent software, it works. And the thing is, I browse GAF on it, pretty zoomed out, and considering I'm poking tiny links with the fat of my fingertip, I'd say about 95% of the time it not only picks the correct thread link, but whether I intended to go to one of the numbered pages, which I do sometimes, or the Last Page option.

"Well what about that 5%?" Well when the links are just a few pixels big and my finger lacking a stylus point, so to speak, I don't expect it to work literally every time, but usually it impresses me.

If it works with that degree of accuracy, software-assisted or no, then it's going to work fine for Wii U gaming and applications, and bring all sorts of added options for including it. You just aren't going to paint the Mona Lisa on it. Probably. Some people out there will still find a way because that's what they do.


I've never had an issue with "dry skin" input, and if your hands are soaking wet with sweat, you should probably put down the controller in the first place and towel them off. Because that's getting pretty gross.


One of the first games demonstrated, Ghost Recon Online, used it for a 3D virtual map. You expect to be able to pinch-zoom maps, but instead the controller screen real estate has to be taken up by big zoom in and out buttons, big enough for you to hit in a hurry.

And again, what if you want to, I don't know, hit more than one button at once? What about games that use just the touch screen?

I'm reading this thread right now on both a 3DS and an Ipod. Aside the from Ipod browser running faster, the input precision is roughly the same (both a pain in the ass)... but when using a stylus on the 3ds it blows the Ipod away. The ability to easily use a stylus (that doesn't need batteries) is the biggest advantage of a resistive screen and likely the main reason to use it for gaming purposes.

 

[Azure Dream]

Actually it doesn't. Like I said above, set it up so all you need to do is hold L1 and drag the stylus.

This is a shooter, you'll be using the L1 button for something else. And you probably won't be using a stylus anyway.

 

[UncleSporky]

This is a shooter, you'll be using the L1 button for something else. And you probably won't be using a stylus anyway.

Then use L2 or whatever else. It's not a problem.

You could easily make the button a multi-purpose one. Tap to reload, hold to use secondary touchscreen functions.

Do you seriously propose letting go of half the controller to pinch zoom? As you said, this is a shooter!

 

[blu]

Oh no you don't. You're not going to say that and leave with out explaining.

Latency, aka 'seek times', aka the time the system needs to spend before it can even start reading the data. Of all types of physical digital media used by mankind today, optical disks are 'beaten' in bad seek times only by tape. God forbid if your content is not read sequentially from the disk surface. Basically, you have to design your whole game by the rules of engagement of the medium: start seeking as early as possible when you as much as suspect what new assets will need to be loaded; sprinkle the same assets across the disk surface so that you always keep them 'close at head' from whereever you might be currently positioned over (eating up medium capacity due to said redundancy). And pray the disk tech is of low soft error rates, so your carefully devised seek optimisations don't go to hell when the disk ends up dusty and starts spewing soft read errors.

One of greatest things nintendo ever did for devs on the cube was to provide very precise emulation of the printed disk seek times for devs. Pretty much the opposite to what Sony did with the UMD..

 

[bgassassin]

Link?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10069

The original source link is dead, but here is an excerpt from it.

Japanese stock newspaper, Kabushiki Shimbun, ran an article regarding Nintendo and the game industry on their web column "Analyst Kabuka Shindan" recently. The article revealed that the new memory media which will be used in DS software can cost 30-70% less than the current GBA cartridges. It was also noted that Nintendo are currently losing 20 billion yen each year on Nintendo hardware, but that this loss will be reduced by reusing the production plants for the next generation of hardware. A closing comment was made that if Nintendo could reach an operating profit of 150 billion yen for the year, the stock price could well rise to 20000 yen (it is currently around the 12500 mark).

Source: Kabushiki Shimbun (via Quiter)

Latency, aka 'seek times', aka the time the system needs to spend before it can even start reading the data. Of all types of physical digital media used by mankind today, optical disks are 'beaten' in bad seek times only by tape. God forbid if your content is not read sequentially from the disk surface. Basically, you have to design your whole game by the rules of engagement of the medium: start seeking as early as possible when you as much as suspect what new assets will need to be loaded; sprinkle the same assets across the disk surface so that you always keep them 'close at head' from whereever you might be currently positioned over (eating up medium capacity due to said redundancy). And pray the disk tech is of low soft error rates, so your carefully devised seek optimisations don't go to hell when the disk ends up dusty and starts spewing soft read errors.

One of greatest things nintendo ever did for devs on the cube was to provide very precise emulation of the printed disk seek times for devs. Pretty much the opposite to what Sony did with the UMD..

I figured that's what you were referring to. I just wanted you to say it and explain why.

 

[Indyana]

There's a WiiU somewhere at my work right now and i'm trying to get a hold of it. Hopefully I can talk to the right people and make that happen.

Ask for benchmark results.

 

[wsippel]

I knew I shouldn't leave that easy out, but either way, it does mean that having a resistive touch screen doesn't guarantee accurate input.

It's actually too acurate in the cases you describe and would need a software routine to dumb it down. You see, Nintendo's touchscreen API is really bad at guessing whether you meant to drag or "click". If your stylus moves even slightly, it assumes you didn't intend to select something, but scroll. But then the movement was so tiny that it doesn't actually scroll, and to you it looks like it didn't register or was imprecise.

Also, all my other points still stand. Multitouch is the only real benefit capacitive offers, but it simply isn't worth all the tradeoffs (more expensive, less reliable, less precise), especially considering the fact that due to the design of the pad, you still have access to six to eight buttons and an analog stick while interacting with the screen.

You know, there's a reason even in medical and military applications, everyone switches to touchscreens, but nobody uses capacitive screens. Even though cost certainly isn't an issue.

 

[MDX]

DownWithTheShip has informed us that the company he worked for received dev kits back in January. Working backwards, 2010, putting the dev kit together. What could Nintendo have used to put together the dev kits, and what technology, back in 2010 or 2009, was present or introduced that they deemed it possible or worthwhile, to launch a next gen console in 2012? For example, Power7 was discussed back in 2009, did they see something special about that?

 

[walking fiend]

This is a shooter, you'll be using the L1 button for something else. And you probably won't be using a stylus anyway.

I could come up with a lot of situations that resistive touch is better, actually lots of games that wouldn't be playable with capacitive at all. It's not a black and white argument, but personally I definitely prefer resistive readily availability of stylus acceptance over multitouch, as it is just much much more precise.

but that this loss will be reduced by reusing the production plants for the next generation of hardware

ahahahahahahaha

Seems we got one of the culprits that lead to Wii's super performance.

 

[UncleSporky]

I could come up with a lot of situations that resistive touch is better, actually lots of games that wouldn't be playable with capacitive at all. It's not a black and white argument, but personally I definitely prefer resistive readily availability of stylus acceptance over multitouch, as it is just much much more precise.

Well he is right that you probably won't be using a stylus, that would require letting go of the controller with one hand. But so does multitouch pinch zoom!

In fact, using a button + one finger is probably the most efficient way to handle modifying touchscreen data like a map...unless you want to use the much-maligned buttons on the screen.

 

[Effect]

I just honestly don't see why a capacitive touchscreen on the controller is needed. It's not like the controller is going to be lacking control options. Four shoulder buttons, dpad, two circle pads/sticks, four face buttons. Much of which will be used at the same time to some degree. Then you'll be able to map buttons to the screen ala DS/3DS. It might be nice to have but don't see a need. If there isn't one then why not go with resistive? Can't a more current version of it be more refined? If you have physical controls that worked together what is the point of a multi-touch screen other then just to have one because it's current tech? What exactly would be the benefit?

 

[sfried]

- the lack of DVD and BluRay support
- 8GB internal storage

So the fact that it doesn't playback BluRay movie disks and uses and relies on an external harddrive for storage is "cutting corners"? And didn't we last hear that the optical media they were using was something equivalent to a BluRay, just not "licensed" (in the same way Wii disks are "not DVDs") so they don't have to pay the BluRay consortium, and subsequently their competitor, any money? (Although it's ironic considering Sony Pictures is leveraging on Nintendo Video for their films.)

I'm scared to ask DownWithTheShip anything. It might get him fired, and it seems like he doesn't have direct phisical access to the unit, which may or may not be the latest dev unit.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

@DownWithTheShip

Could you at least investigate if the system is more powerful than the PS3?

 

[UncleSporky]

The only moderately compelling reason I can think of for capacitive support is easy ports of games from iOS to WiiU eShop.

And it's not even that compelling.

 

[Azure Dream]

Effect: Some games and applications can be touch-screen only, and would be improved by the inclusion of multi-touch.

I could come up with a lot of situations that resistive touch is better, actually lots of games that wouldn't be playable with capacitive at all.

Please do. I want to know these games that would be completely unplayable with a capacitive touch screen.

 

[Trike]

You mean after.

When I wrote that I was really tired, and for some reason misread the quote that said it would come out April 2012. Well that is balls, probably won't see it until Fall 2012.

 

[Shiggy]

Didn't we already know that Ubi started Killer Rabbids in late 2010? So they seem to have got WiiU kits kind of early.

 

[UncleSporky]

Please do. I want to know these games that would be completely unplayable with a capacitive touch screen.

Just go play every touch-based DS game with your finger.

Kirby's Canvas Curse, Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks, Elite Beat Agents, Ninja Gaiden DS, etc. I think Animal Crossing can be played with touch control only so give that one a try too.

Get back to us.

 

[Luckyman]

Yay! More asinine stuff from you. You do know Nintendo was losing on the GC when they dropped it to $99 right? Of course not. Try to be a more effective troll at least.

Haha.. asinine indeed. I enjoy your post on Beyond3d..

Vita also uses "GPU tech from 2008" (what an asinine way to look at it). It is selling at a loss.

To think they were making $100 at launch on a Wii is just as laughable as the rest of your post. There is more to the Wii than just the CPU/GPU. A lot more, in fact. Look at the BoM breakdown on the previous page. As inaccurate as it probably is, this is before you even consider retailer margin, shipping, etc. A $6 return isn't all that surprising, and it highlights why Sony as a company is in the position that it's in.

You've had better hit-and-runs than that.[/QUOTE]

So defensive stuff. Sad really. Vita is competing with Wii U?

 

[manueldelalas]

I just honestly don't see why a capacitive touchscreen on the controller is needed. It's not like the controller is going to be lacking control options. Four shoulder buttons, dpad, two circle pads/sticks, four face buttons. Much of which will be used at the same time to some degree. Then you'll be able to map buttons to the screen ala DS/3DS. It might be nice to have but don't see a need. If there isn't one then why not go with resistive? Can't a more current version of it be more refined? If you have physical controls that worked together what is the point of a multi-touch screen other then just to have one because it's current tech? What exactly would be the benefit?

The only practical thing you get is pinch to zoom, and that is possible (and available) in plenty (pretty much all actually) of non multitouch screens around, including resistive screens...

There is really no point in having a capacitive screen, if you are going to use it for stuff that requires precision (like drawing); and those screens are more expensive, so yo get in a loose loose situation...

 

[Effect]

The only practical thing you get is pinch to zoom, and that is possible (and available) in plenty (pretty much all actually) of non multitouch screens around, including resistive screens...

There is really no point in having a capacitive screen, if you are going to use it for stuff that requires precision (like drawing); and those screens are more expensive, so yo get in a loose loose situation...

Pinch to zoom is the only thing I've have ever used the multi-touch for on my iPod Touch and the iPad/smartphones I've messed around with. I've only used a single finger to everything else, apps and the few games I've tried. You could I guess use it for onscreen controls (dpad and a few buttons) but the Wii U controller has plenty of physical buttons so that makes that not even an issue.

 

[Azure Dream]

Just go play every touch-based DS game with your finger.

Kirby's Canvas Curse, Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks, Elite Beat Agents, Ninja Gaiden DS, etc. I think Animal Crossing can be played with touch control only so give that one a try too.

Get back to us.

That argument makes no sense. That would be playing on a 256 × 192, 2.4"×1.8" resistive touch screen. Explain how poor gameplay on a resistive touch screen proves anything about capacitive touch screen capabilities?

Or are you trying to make the "my finger's in the way" argument? That the stylus is the most important aspect? Because while it's been established capacitive touch screens do not register stylus input quite as accurately as resistive, you're still going to be able to play EBA, Ninja Gaiden DS, Kirby's Canvas Curse etc. with a capacitive stylus just fine. Or if they changed it to buttons slightly more suited for fingers on a 6.2" display, they could actually include challenging stages where you tap two different places on the screen at once. I think developers would like having that option.

 

[manueldelalas]

Pinch to zoom is the only thing I've have ever used the multi-touch for on my iPod Touch and the iPad/smartphones I've messed around with. I've only used a single finger to everything else, apps and the few games I've tried. You could I guess use it for onscreen controls (dpad and a few buttons) but the Wii U controller has plenty of physical buttons so that makes that not even an issue.

What people don't realize is that most smartphones are not multitouch; and even those that are accept only two fingers. There are phones that accept eleven fingers or ridiculous figures like that, but there is really no point and those are the minority (and iPhones).

That's why most smartphone games have controls in opposite sides, one on the down right and one in the top left. Because in that way it can SIMULATE multitouch, but that doesn't mean it has and doesn't mean a resistive screen can do exactly the same.

Being single touch doesn't mean that you can't simulate multitouch with smart programming. And with the buttons, there is really no point...

 

[UncleSporky]

That argument makes no sense. That would be playing on a 256 × 192, 2.4"×1.8" resistive touch screen. Explain how poor gameplay on a resistive touch screen proves anything about capacitive touch screen capabilities?

Or are you trying to make the "my finger's in the way" argument? That the stylus is the most important aspect? Because while it's been established capacitive touch screens do not register stylus input quite as accurately as resistive, you're still going to be able to play EBA, Ninja Gaiden DS, Kirby's Canvas Curse etc. with a capacitive stylus just fine. Or if they changed it to buttons slightly more suited for fingers on a 6.2" display, they could actually include challenging stages where you tap two different places on the screen at once. I think developers would like having that option.

You asked for games that would be unplayable and you got your example. You didn't say anything about screen sizes making any difference.

It's obvious that you always intended to use a theoretical argument rather than actually testing whether or not a game would be unplayable. Just go beat Ninja Gaiden DS with your finger and get back to us.

EDIT: BurntPork makes a better point. Capacitive styli do not level the playing field at all. They're expensive and tend to be essentially as fat as a finger anyway:

I should have read the reviews carefully.
Do not buy this if you want to use it with your iPhone to draw, slide the screens or do anything cool.

The tip is very soft and you need to put some effort in pressing it against the screen. If you try to slide it, you are in danger of damaging the screen since the tip moves away and the hard plastic of the stylus can scratch your precious screen.

And what's the point of using a capacitive stylus anyway if your huge benefit is multitouch?

 

[BurntPork]

That argument makes no sense. That would be playing on a 256 × 192, 2.4"×1.8" resistive touch screen. Explain how poor gameplay on a resistive touch screen proves anything about capacitive touch screen capabilities?

Or are you trying to make the "my finger's in the way" argument? That the stylus is the most important aspect? Because while it's been established capacitive touch screens do not register stylus input quite as accurately as resistive, you're still going to be able to play EBA, Ninja Gaiden DS, Kirby's Canvas Curse etc. with a capacitive stylus just fine. Or if they changed it to buttons slightly more suited for fingers on a 6.2" display, they could actually include challenging stages where you tap two different places on the screen at once. I think developers would like having that option.

Capacitive styli are too big and expensive for Nintendo to even consider shipping the console with one, so that's a poor way to support your argument.

The only thing you've come up with to use multitouch for is pinch and zoom, which is not enough on its own to justify the extra cost and loss of durability that might result in more replacements, so what else?

 

[guek]

So defensive stuff. Sad really. Vita is competing with Wii U?

So your response to a cogent argument is a nonsensical tangent?

 

[bgassassin]

Haha.. asinine indeed. I enjoy your post on Beyond3d..

The key difference is those posts are speculative. Yours was said as fact when it was clearly wrong.

 

[Azure Dream]

You asked for games that would be unplayable and you got your example. You didn't say anything about screen sizes making any difference.

We are talking about the Wii U's screen. There shouldn't have to be anything said about a screen size difference, because we know there's a screen size difference, and were discussing the use of the touch screen on the Wii U. The games themselves would not be unplayable on a Wii U screen, and perhaps even on a DS using a capacitive touch screen.

It's obvious that you always intended to use a theoretical argument rather than actually testing whether or not a game would be unplayable. Just go beat Ninja Gaiden DS with your finger and get back to us.

I'm sorry, did someone sneak in and modify my DS to have a capacitive touch screen while I was asleep? Did they also increase the touch screen size and resolution to that of the Wii U? Your argument still makes no sense.

It's not a theoretical argument if you keep introducing or making up unrealistic conditions. I was not arguing that that DS touch screen should be retrofitted with a capacitive interface. I was saying the Wii U should have a capacitive interface. Please try to keep this straight.

Capacitive styli are too big and expensive for Nintendo to even consider shipping the console with one, so that's a poor way to support your argument.

Maybe that's one place where they could pour their millions and millions of R&D dollars into to improve, perhaps? They figured out a way to put rumble into styli, we've seen the patent, so they're obviously tinkering with stylus designs.

The only thing you've come up with to use multitouch for is pinch and zoom, which is not enough on its own to justify the extra cost and loss of durability that might result in more replacements, so what else?

As immature (as in undeveloped, not puerile) as the gaming landscape is for smart phones, I've played several games that make use of multiple inputs, and I'm sure ideas will develop and improve in those regards.

Specifics? How about Wii Music 2? I posted a picture some time ago of a piano keys iPhone app, there are all sorts of ways you could use the touch screen for an instruments game. Or a more serious rhythm game like a sequel to EBA, or a portable version of Beatmania, or a version of Taiko Drum Master, akin to the DS versions, that actually works with two different drumsticks at once? What about cyberpunk computer hacking minigames, in the style of that Japanese DS title I can't recall, but with new, tricky puzzles to work your head around? What about more complicated RTS multi-touch gestures or inputs for faster gameplay?

How about ideas that haven't been thought up yet, or we haven't seen in gaming because the option was not there before? The best and brightest development minds not having to find strange work-arounds and awkward hold-a-button toggles to mimic a very simple concept?


That's my reasoning for this, I think developers will get more out of multi-touch than they will more accurate drawing. And I still question just how inaccurate some people think capacitive touch screens are, when I've seen plenty of modern devices implement them accurately and usefully. I don't think I should have to say any more to justify my viewpoint, and I'm surprised I've had to say this much to begin with.

 

[walking fiend]

Please do. I want to know these games that would be completely unplayable with a capacitive touch screen.

OK, some very high profile ones:

Metroid Prime Hunters
DS Flipnote
Zeldas (both of them)
Minis March
Elite Beat Agents
Big Bang Mini
The Worlds End With You
FIFA
Trauma series

Pretty much any game that needs fast or precise movements. And no, they are not replicable without stylus, whether on resistive or capacitive, unless your finger has zero friction and has a tip the size of the DS stylus

Game that won't be playable on the Wii U controller larger screen without stylus:

RTS/Tower Defense/etc games in general, which weren't possible on small DS screen and won't be on an iPad because lack of precision and responsiveness.

 

[DownWithTheShip]

DownWithTheShip has informed us that the company he worked for received dev kits back in January. Working backwards, 2010, putting the dev kit together. What could Nintendo have used to put together the dev kits, and what technology, back in 2010 or 2009, was present or introduced that they deemed it possible or worthwhile, to launch a next gen console in 2012? For example, Power7 was discussed back in 2009, did they see something special about that?

What I said is that dev kits went out in January. At least that's what Nintendo originally told us back in December. We did not get one until recently.

@DownWithTheShip

Could you at least investigate if the system is more powerful than the PS3?

I'll see what I can find out. I cannot promise anything.

 

[GameplayWhore]

EDIT: BurntPork makes a better point. Capacitive styli do not level the playing field at all. They're expensive and tend to be essentially as fat as a finger anyway:

Ye gods, I got a pack of those as a lark to see what they'd be like. They're terrible. I can't even drag them properly, too much resistance on the surface.

I can play games on my phone, but under some circumstances, capacitive does suffer. Playing a bejeweled clone, I very frequently select the wrong item, because the boxes are much smaller than my finger, and I have to sort of guess where the center of my finger is to get the right area. I get it right the vast majority of the time, but it'd really suck if the jump button on Super Mario Bros failed every sixth time I pressed it.

Basically, the hit zones on things you touch in capacitive screens need to be much (often by a decimal order of magnitude) larger than on resistive screens. That doesn't make it universally worse, but it is one point in favour of the "antiquated" type of touchscreen.

 

[Forsaken82]

Well he is right that you probably won't be using a stylus, that would require letting go of the controller with one hand. But so does multitouch pinch zoom!

In fact, using a button + one finger is probably the most efficient way to handle modifying touchscreen data like a map...unless you want to use the much-maligned buttons on the screen.

... or you could touch a +/- key on the touch screen that enables zoom in/zoom out like when you view a map on your PC on google maps.... You guys are over complicating things.

(of course this is assuming the only purpose of the controller screen is a MAP UI)

 

[guek]

I'll find out. I promise you everything.

quoted for posterity.

Spoiler

I hope the desperation isn't off putting

 

[AceBandage]

Why does he need to find that out?
It's already a known quantity that the Wii U is more powerful than current gen systems.

If you're going to have him risk being fired for breaking an NDA, then have him find out something useful like how much RAM it has or how many cores it uses.

 

[StevieP]

What I said is that dev kits went out in January. At least that's what Nintendo originally told us back in December. We did not get one until recently.

Oh, Nintendo.

I'll see what I can find out. I cannot promise anything.

Just don't get yourself in shit lol

 

[walking fiend]

Just don't get yourself in shit lol

I second this, them Ninjas are already watching you!

 

[DownWithTheShip]

Oh, Nintendo.



Just don't get yourself in shit lol

We don't develop games so having one early doesn't make much of a difference.

I wont get in trouble.