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[MCD]

Can you explain to me why its so indefensible? Besides the 24 hour check in (which admittedly sucks) what makes MS's policies so different from any other companies DRM policies? In reality it actually seems a bit more lax that most in terms of how much control you have over the license to software you buy digitally, ie you can trade it in, or give it to a friend. If I'm fundamentally misunderstanding something here, please explain it to me.

As a stopgap between a partly physical, and ultimately all digital future, it seems quite sensible. But then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here.

Can only give my games ONCE and only ONCE. Meaning, no lending, no renting.

Cannot play offline games without 24 hour check. Sure, I can handle it as I am always online but Jesus Christ forget gifting this POS to any kid without explaining to his/her parents how the kids need this shit connected or else they can fuck off.

This PR single handedly killed any interest I had in X1 and I will not support them till they revert back.

And don't tell me they won't. MS loves testing everything on us in version 1 and when it backfires, oh boy time to fire the boss and issue version 2 where they go back to earth, as Acer said.

 

[campfireweekend]

Can only give my games ONCE and only ONCE. Meaning, no lending, no renting.

Cannot play offline games without 24 hour check. Sure, I can handle it as I am always online but Jesus Christ forget gifting this POS to any kid without explaining to his/her parents how the kids need this shit connected or else they can fuck off.

This PR single handedly killed any interest I had in X1 and I will not support them till they revert back.

And don't tell me they won't. MS loves testing everything on us in version 1 and when it backfires, oh boy time to fire the boss and issue version 2 where they go back to earth, as Acer said.

But again, how is that completely indefensible? People have different priorities. I never lend, rent or trade in games I've played. I don't buy used. In fact, mostly everything I buy is digital: the games I have on steam, on my phone, my surface, and my 3ds. And on those platforms I already can't do any of those things. On Xbox One I apparently can give digital copies of games to friends. It seems with their system, you actually have more ownership of the digital content you purchase. If I never planned on buying physical media for the Xbox One, nor do I for any next Gen systems (I haven't on the Wii u, the vita, the 3ds and I'm planning not to on the PS4) explain to me how their policies fuck me over.

Maybe I'm crazy, but these don't seem like objectively immoral consumer policies. If my preferences as a consumer differ from yours, then these policies don't affect me in the slightest. At best, my consumer philosophies and yours differ, with neither being objectively right. If I'm already all digital, these policies affect me how? Answer that.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Can you explain to me why its so indefensible? Besides the 24 hour check in (which admittedly sucks) what makes MS's policies so different from any other companies DRM policies? In reality it actually seems a bit more lax that most in terms of how much control you have over the license to software you buy digitally, ie you can trade it in, or give it to a friend. If I'm fundamentally misunderstanding something here, please explain it to me.

As a stopgap between a partly physical, and ultimately all digital future, it seems quite sensible. But then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here.

you're literally asking "besides just being able to put in and play a disk on any console, what is so indefensible" as if the act of putting in a disk and 'it just works' no matter if it's the first console or tenth console is a trivial matter, easily overlooked. really though, this isn't the thread to be talking about it.

 

[MCD]

But again, how is that completely indefensible? People have different priorities. I never lend, rent or trade in games I've played. I don't buy used. In fact, mostly everything I buy is digital: the games I have on steam, on my phone, my surface, and my 3ds. And on those platforms I already can't do any of those things. On Xbox One I apparently can give digital copies of games to friends. It seems with their system, you actually have more ownership of the digital content you purchase. If I never planned on buying physical media for the Xbox One, nor do I for any next Gen systems (I haven't on the Wii u, the vita, the 3ds and I'm planning not to on the PS4) explain to me how their policies fuck me over.

Maybe I'm crazy, but these don't seem like objectively immoral consumer policies. If my preferences as a consumer differ from yours, then these policies don't affect me in the slightest. At best, my consumer philosophies and yours differ, with neither being objectively right. If I'm already all digital, these policies affect me how? Answer that.

I'm not against you or your philosophies. I was planning to go all digital once I heard installing is mandatory so the 10 family members is sweet to me.

But here is the thing: this is not about you or me. they can make digital downloads better in whatever way they want, price drops, more people sharing...etc but why make retail copies full of restrictions? Why make it harder for people who supported your console for 8 years? Because big bad boy Kotick and co want more money?

Fuck that. If you wanna make a digital only console then do that and forget this whole retail business because quite frankly this whole restrictions business on physical copies is just....ARRRRGHHHH.

I'm too exhausted from this shit.

 

[frontieruk]

you're literally asking "besides just being able to put in and play a disk on any console, what is so indefensible" as if the act of putting in a disk and 'it just works' no matter if it's the first console or tenth console is a trivial matter, easily overlooked. really though, this isn't the thread to be talking about it.

Actually generally it is as you can have a level headed discussion about it rather than "OMG M$ ate my first born and then laughed. Also they see trying to be a digital platform rather than a physical media platform"

which as the previous poster said doesn't affect everyone, hell I've got saints row 3, guild wars 2 disks that could just be binned as I don't feel entitled to trade them in or sell them on, and no pc owner would buy them knowing they'd have to buy a key to use them anyway.

 

[campfireweekend]

I'm not against you or your philosophies. I was planning to go all digital once I heard installing is mandatory so the 10 family members is sweet to me.

But here is the thing: this is not about you or me. they can make digital downloads better in whatever way they want, price drops, more people sharing...etc but why make retail copies full of restrictions? Why make it harder for people who supported your console for 8 years? Because big bad boy Kotick and co want more money?

Fuck that. If you wanna make a digital only console then do that and forget this whole retail business because quite frankly this whole restrictions business on physical copies is just....ARRRRGHHHH.

I'm too exhausted from this shit.

You know what, you're right. My argument essentially boils down to 'fuck you, got mine.' And I generally try to avoid having that sort of opinion on most things in life. What may be completely fine for me, may suck momentously for someone without the disposable income I have. Maybe they need to trade in to buy another game, or rent just to play a game that they've been eagerly awaiting, because funds don't permit to follow the same path as me. I need to work on my empathy

But at the end of the day, I buy consoles because they have games I want to play. And if Xbox One has those, I'll buy it. Maybe that is selfish :/

I need to think about this...

 

[MCD]

It's fine. I'm dying for Rare, Mistwalker and Remedy next gen games among many others but this whole DRM business left a bad taste in my mouth.

It's just frustrating.

 

[VanMardigan]

Two quick points:

-I live in one of those rural-like areas where the internet is not as reliable as electricity, and even electricity can go for days and weeks because of hurricanes. I have younger family members with whom I trade and lend games regularly, in addition to buying them games at birthdays and Christmas. I love MS products and use primarily an Xbox for gaming and web video. Their policies are wrongheaded, though, and I will not be buying an Xbox one.

-lastflowers was not banned for shilling. He is not a shill and has always been up front about being a MS employee. He was banned for trolling and he knows he should not have made the post that got him banned. He will be back next week, its all good.

 

[hwalker84]

Two quick points:

-I live in one of those rural-like areas where the internet is not as reliable as electricity, and even electricity can go for days and weeks because of hurricanes. I have younger family members with whom I trade and lend games regularly, in addition to buying them games at birthdays and Christmas. I love MS products and use primarily an Xbox for gaming and web video. Their policies are wrongheaded, though, and I will not be buying an Xbox one.

-lastflowers was not banned for shilling. He is not a shill and has always been up front about being a MS employee. He was banned for trolling and he knows he should not have made the post that got him banned. He will be back next week, its all good.

I hope you don't expect Sony to have a radically different approach

 

[frontieruk]

I hope you don't expect Sony to have a radically different approach

Sony's stance on second hand game sales :-

When asked, Sony Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida in a quickfire Q&A not if PS4 would block used games but whether second hand games will require an activation code on the console.

His answer: “It's a publisher decision. We are not talking about it. Sorry.”

Microsofts stance :-

Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers.

Bet we don't see the bannings for the Sony 'apologists' as that's what we're calling sides now apparently.

 

[giga]

I hope you don't expect Sony to have a radically different approach

Does sony require access to the internet every 24 hours?

 

[frontieruk]

Does sony require access to the internet every 24 hours?

How are publishers going to lock their disk sales?

 

[VanMardigan]

I hope you don't expect Sony to have a radically different approach

Nope, which is why I'm picking up a......gulp......Wii U for Christmas. My daughter is six and I don't game as much anyway, plus I'm a Windows phone owner so I'm used to being shafted on apps and games and depending on first party offerings. I used to be a huge Nintendo fanboy, so it'll be weird coming back after skipping the original Wii. Plus my 360/ps3 backlog is huge.

 

[giga]

How are publishers going to lock their disk sales?

I don't know. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until we know for sure if Sony's policy is the same.

 

[JaggedSac]

In general, do the dual cores in the current W8 phones handle the OS and apps decently? I don't care about 3D games and such not performing well, but are there any applications that have smoothness issues? Just curious if I should wait until Fall to do my upgrade. If everything is smooth, then I could care less and will grab the EOS.

 

[kharma45]

Sony's stance on second hand game sales :-

When asked, Sony Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida in a quickfire Q&A not if PS4 would block used games but whether second hand games will require an activation code on the console.

His answer: “It's a publisher decision. We are not talking about it. Sorry.”

Microsofts stance :-

Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers.

Bet we don't see the bannings for the Sony 'apologists' as that's what we're calling sides now apparently.

Gaming side is an embarrassment now, surprised the mods are putting up with it.

 

[maeh2k]

@tomwarren: Leaked Windows Phone screenshots reveal notification center, UI changes, and more http://vrge.co/16RGUCi

interesting.

 

[brotkasten]

Tom thinks it's real, I'm not so sure about it.

Here are the pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/poppingseed/with/8984057409/

The notification center being a tile on the home screen sort of defeats the purpose.

E: Oh, the build is from May? Huh.

 

[kharma45]

interesting.

Very.

 

[VanMardigan]

In general, do the dual cores in the current W8 phones handle the OS and apps decently? I don't care about 3D games and such not performing well, but are there any applications that have smoothness issues? Just curious if I should wait until Fall to do my upgrade. If everything is smooth, then I could care less and will grab the EOS.

No issues aside from a small number of 3d games that occasionally lag, but in many cases its just lack of optimization. We haven't seen anything on WP8 that requires more than dual core, but who knows what the team and developers have in store for next year and beyond.

 

[maeh2k]

Tom thinks it's real, I'm not so sure about it.

Here are the pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/poppingseed/with/8984057409/

The notification center being a tile on the home screen sort of defeats the purpose.

I was hoping they'd do something like Asha's Fastlane left of the start screen, but this tile does seem like something Microsoft would do (also consistent with the notification tile we've seen on the Xbox One).

In some ways it makes sense, since a tile is visible on the start screen, whereas hidden UI like an additional screen on the left doesn't alert you to notifications. It's also more customizable. E.g. if someone is bothered by the constant notifications and deems live tiles sufficient, then they could unpin the tile. Or if someone values them very much, they could opt for a larger tile. I might prefer it over Android's notification icons at the top.

Maybe there would have been some limitations if the notification screen was to the left of the start screen. E.g. horizontal swipes to dismiss notifications could be problematic (in the same way that sliders in a pivot/panorama are).


So now that I've thought a bit about it, I might be okay with accessing notifications via a tile. However, compared to Android the notification system is probably still a bit barebones.
Still, system's like Asha's Fastlane or Blackberry's new system seem a tad more elegant.

 

[Windu]

In general, do the dual cores in the current W8 phones handle the OS and apps decently? I don't care about 3D games and such not performing well, but are there any applications that have smoothness issues? Just curious if I should wait until Fall to do my upgrade. If everything is smooth, then I could care less and will grab the EOS.

everything runs smoothly.

 

[Milchjon]

I was hoping they'd do something like Asha's Fastlane left of the start screen

Same.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I hope you don't expect Sony to have a radically different approach

NES had DRM

 

[frontieruk]

I don't know. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until we know for sure if Sony's policy is the same.

If you'd read the post I made before, you'd see the policy isn't actually in control of either platform holders, the publishers want it, you may get Sony not bothering with it on their disks (though with their attitude to locking down the Vita etc I'd imagine they'll be first in line for it) but the rest are going to slam the DRM on it, forced new sales or a bite of the apple on resales is too big for publishers to pass up on, and if one platform has it front and center the other platform will need to support a similar system or face publishers ignoring them. But hey I'm batshit insane so what do I know?

Gaming side is an embarrassment now, surprised the mods are putting up with it.

Probably risking a ban, but Gaf has often been labeled Pro-Sony.

Posters only get away with what the mods deem acceptable and align with their views a lot of the time, I won't mention any names but there has been several revokings of mod status for abuses of status that were just to blatant to ignore.

Tom thinks it's real, I'm not so sure about it.

Here are the pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/poppingseed/with/8984057409/

The notification center being a tile on the home screen sort of defeats the purpose.

E: Oh, the build is from May? Huh.

at this point in time I think MS has lost the plot, we have notifications for new messages etc we want a quick way of viewing them, not an app that takes as long to open as opening the app where the notification is for.

 

[PG2G]

It being a tile on the home screen is fine with me, that's just two clicks away.

 

[brotkasten]

The point of a notification center is that you can access all notifications from anywhere in the OS, without having to leave your current app. If you have to go back and forth between the app and the home screen, you might as well use the damn live tiles on your home screen as notification center, just like the MS PR tried to spin it until recently.

 

[this_guy]

NES had DRM

But I was able to borrow and lend games to my friends when I was a kid.

 

[Windu]

But I was able to borrow and lend games to my friends when I was a kid.

seems like the family feature will allow you to do that.

 

[Troll]

The point of a notification center is that you can access all notifications from anywhere in the OS, without having to leave your current app. If you have to go back and forth between the app and the home screen, you might as well use the damn live tiles on your home screen as notification center, just like the MS PR tried to spin it until recently.

Well, WPcentral has an update that says this is from a super early build and that the notification center has been removed entirely! Crises averted.

 

[PG2G]

The point of a notification center is that you can access all notifications from anywhere in the OS, without having to leave your current app.

The point of it to me is a place to see notifications I've missed, doesn't really matter how I get to it.

And id imagine you really only need to check it once you've been away from your phone for a while, not constantly. You'd know of any notifications that came up while using your phone.

That said, I've used WP since before iOS got notification center (and haven't owned other platforms) so I haven't had any hands on experience so my opinions are formed on partial info

 

[hadareud]

The point of a notification center is that you can access all notifications from anywhere in the OS, without having to leave your current app. If you have to go back and forth between the app and the home screen, you might as well use the damn live tiles on your home screen as notification center, just like the MS PR tried to spin it until recently.

Yeah, pretty much. Another tile is pretty useless when the rest of your tiles are already doing their job anyway.

Swipe to the left (or indeed down) would be much more useful.

 

[frontieruk]

The point of a notification center is that you can access all notifications from anywhere in the OS, without having to leave your current app. If you have to go back and forth between the app and the home screen, you might as well use the damn live tiles on your home screen as notification center, just like the MS PR tried to spin it until recently.

agreed, as I said what's the point of a live tile app?

 

[antiquegamer]

seems like the family feature will allow you to do that.

The only redeeming thing about it oh and the fact that I can sell my digital contents unlike Steam, Blizzard and Origin.

Still hate digital future. Gaf didn't go into meltdown when Steam start the whole register the game bullshit or constant DRM with Blizzard but suddenly this is the end of humanity because evil Microsoft doing it.

 

[Troll]

agreed, as I said what's the point of a live tile app?

Wouldn't you like to make a live tile of your live tile app? Maybe pin a specific tile to the homescreen for easy access of notifications...

 

[PG2G]

Tom Warren is saying that notification center is super early and dont assume it'll be an app when it launches.

Guess we'll have to wait and see. I'm just glad something is coming.

 

[frontieruk]

Wouldn't you like to make a live tile of your live tile app? Maybe pin a specific tile to the homescreen for easy access of notifications...

I wuv u

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Personally I would rather not have it as a tile as well. There has to be some middle ground between having access to it anywhere in the UI and use of the ME tile.

 

[maeh2k]

The best case for a tile is consistency. We've already seen it on Xbox One and with Windows Phone and Windows converging that type of notification center could also come to windows at some point. Not only would it be the easiest way to adapt the notification center to Windows, but it would also be a way that works with as well with a mouse as it does with touch.

 

[Windu]

I never used it iOS, probably won't on WP. Live tiles are good enough for me,

 

[clav]

Android is not usable without it.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Back to games for a sec, not only MS fans get banned, :lol dat post count.

It sold fast because Xbox has no games so its like throwing a cornflake into a crowd of Ethiopians.

From the State of Decay sales thread.

edit: he has a few more gold posts in the thread.

 

[VanMardigan]

I'm fine with it being a tile. The biggest complaint I remember was that there was no way to access notifications once you missed them, and this solves that. I don't see why being accessible from anywhere in the OS is important. Its nice, I guess, but not critical. I think the critical piece is having all your notifications in one place.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

I'm fine with it being a tile. The biggest complaint I remember was that there was no way to access notifications once you missed them, and this solves that. I don't see why being accessible from anywhere in the OS is important. Its nice, I guess, but not critical. I think the critical piece is having all your notifications in one place.

True. why not just contain it in the me tile then since it already has a notifications section?

 

[VanMardigan]

True. why not just contain it in the me tile then since it already has a notifications section?

I wouldn't mind that, but they would have to beef it up. Right now its just a jumble of text, with unread highlighted. It needs to be more functional.

 

[zedge]

If you'd read the post I made before, you'd see the policy isn't actually in control of either platform holders, the publishers want it, you may get Sony not bothering with it on their disks (though with their attitude to locking down the Vita etc I'd imagine they'll be first in line for it) but the rest are going to slam the DRM on it, forced new sales or a bite of the apple on resales is too big for publishers to pass up on, and if one platform has it front and center the other platform will need to support a similar system or face publishers ignoring them. But hey I'm batshit insane so what do I know?



Probably risking a ban, but Gaf has often been labeled Pro-Sony.

Posters only get away with what the mods deem acceptable and align with their views a lot of the time, I won't mention any names but there has been several revokings of mod status for abuses of status that were just to blatant to ignore.



at this point in time I think MS has lost the plot, we have notifications for new messages etc we want a quick way of viewing them, not an app that takes as long to open as opening the app where the notification is for.

The gaming side is an utter disgrace right now. I think I am seriously done with it.

Regarding notifications, I agree with you also. I really hope they do not go with a live tile, it needs to be accessible from anywhere. They should just do what Apple did and copy Android, its the best implementation of notifications period. BB Hub looks like it could be a close second though, but I don't have first hand experience with it.

 

[killer rin]

Its nice that a notification center is finally coming, though I doubt I will use it. Though I kind of wished it would have went to the left of the start screen... or hid in the multitask view instead.

 

[Troll]

The gaming side is an utter disgrace right now. I think I am seriously done with it.

Regarding notifications, I agree with you also. I really hope they do not go with a live tile, it needs to be accessible from anywhere. They should just do what Apple did and copy Android, its the best implementation of notifications period. BB Hub looks like it could be a close second though, but I don't have first hand experience with it.

Lastflowers... :'( We should have an official WPGaf wake for every banning. Float an HTC Titan II out into a lake, with a pic of their avatar on it and set fire to it as we hold each other reading our favorite posts from that user. I think it would be a nice way to go out.


I agree. I usually stop with all gaming news a few days before to avoid major leaks leading up to E3 but I'm checking out because I can't handle what's going on over there. I was banned for a month before it was even "bad" I won't even think about what would happen now.

As for notifications, maybe double tap the home button? I'm just worried that it will be another feature that people will bitch about as being "half way" implemented when compared to the competition just like when everything else is introduced.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Lastflowers... :'( We should have an official WPGaf wake for every banning. Float an HTC Titan II out into a lake, with a pic of their avatar on it and set fire to it as we hold each other reading our favorite posts from that user. I think it would be a nice way to go out.

Lol

 

[Milchjon]

A few supposed early WP design concepts.