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[ROFISH]

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/11/do-not-let-skyrim-overflow-your-ps3/

"After Skyrim gamesave files surpass 5MB in the PS3 version, many claim to experience lag and stability issues. “Such as framerate issues, poor rendering, shoddy loading and non interactions fro finishing quests/cutting wood etc,” wrote gamer PurpleHaze on the game’s official forums."

“I can’t finish ANY quest and i can’t buy from ANY trader/npc and i can only talk to them after some laggy button pressing,” continued PurpleHaze. So my gamesave is now 6mb (how i don’t know since i couldn’t buy/sell/talk or complete quests) and the LAG and framerate issue is so bad at this point, the game isn’t worh restarting.”

“It does not take long for the save file to exceed 6MB, roughly 16 hours for me, so playing the game in any sort of depth will become very troublesome,” wrote Kotaku reader Toby."

I guess these people that experienced a completely broken game of Skyrim on PS3 after 16+ hours don't deserve a refund too? Time played is not a indication of when you can't receive a refund, if the game suddenly stops working as intended then they deserve a refund end of story.

Refund to me seems like the ultimate solution, one that involves money exchanging hands, and that is just messy from a business standpoint. I'd argue that a "good faith" measure to work towards a fix or patch first before a refund for broken items would be a better choice.

Of course if the company is full of jerks who can't/won't fix the game in any reasonable amount of time, then cool. Refund it is!

 

[heliosRAzi]

That's a poor analogy and you know it. In that analogy, you drove the car while it was on fire across the country and never complained until you for to the other side. What I'm saying is that if you played a game for 50 hours and enjoyed it, you shouldn't be entitled to get your money back just because you can.

He tried to enjoy driving the car despite it being on fire. Probably even tried to fix it himself. Then it got too hot for him to handle, so he finally returned it.

He enjoyed those 50 hours, then the game kept on crashing on him, so tough luck sleazeball?

 

[SomTervo]

Let me make this one simple and easy to understand.


You eat at a restruant, you finish your meal even though it taste kinda meh, you get home and suffer from food poisoning leaving you sick for days. Do you just go "guess I won't eat there again lol" or do you do something about it?

I've never had food poisoning but literally everyone I know who has did the bolded lol.

Now that's a bad analogy!

 

[Gamecocks625]

Didn't catch up on the news for this one, but did this game tank or something?

 

[Petrae]

Just sayin, now would be the perfect time to file a class action if anyone is going to while so many eyes and ears are pointed at the situation.

I'd love to hear a judge's take on whether Hello Games misrepresented its product or not, as well as defermining whether consumers are legally entitled to refunds. How long should consumers be forced to wait for developers to fix their broken/malfunctioning software?

At some point, the legal system should get involved-- and the No Man's Sky mess is as good a time as any.

 

[Farewell]

Wonder how many times this has been refunded for Steam to add this on the NMS Store page

This is huge.

 

[Omadahl]

Who is saying anybody "enjoyed it".

The 50 hours is moot if the game completely stop performing.

Besides that, as you are probably aware, Steams policy is 2 hours so many people might have thought I'll have to stick with it because I've already gone over and see if it gets any better. Now they've found out that they are offering refunds if you have gone over the 2 hour limit, how is that anyone's fault? It's not got any better, in fact it's got worse. That is fair grounds for a refund.

Obviously people have differing opinions on this and it probably makes a difference if you put in 20 hours of crashes or 20 hours of enjoyment. I just don't get how someone spends more than 4-5 hours trying to fix a game, much less 20+. At that point, I would have uninstalled, requested a refund and blacklisted the developer; which I'm sure many people will do now. I don't think Hello Games is surviving this.

 

[SomTervo]

I'd love to hear a judge's take on whether Hello Games misrepresented its product or not, as well as defermining whether consumers are legally entitled to refunds. How long should consumers be forced to wait for developers to fix their broken/malfunctioning software?

At some point, the legal system should get involved-- and the No Man's Sky mess is as good a time as any.

Yeah it would be a fucking fascinating case to watch.

Making A Murray

 

[Beefy]

It might carry a little more weight now that "It's fucking broken" is basically the information you're being given at the time of purchase

Would be better if they just said that. Ha

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

Can I have a return for the emotional investment in No Man's Sky? I was following the game development and enjoyed the reveal video but now I feel betrayed and fooled by the the turnout. I spent quite valuable time of my life listening to Sean's promises about exploring a vast and rich galaxy as my childhood's dream was to be an astronaut/galaxy explorer..

 

[Lagamorph]

I wonder if Hello Games are busy trying to force their staff to sign as many retroactive NDAs about the development of the game as they possibly can....

 

[demigod]

Sean Murray and Hello Games waiting for 30 days to pass before issuing a response on twitter.

 

[renzollo]

You are aware that the vast majority of physical goods generally have full refund policies within 14-28 days (in the US anyway, in Europe its probably even better) at most reputable vendors? Why is software any different? If I buy a new television, take it home, and find that after a week of using it I don't like the picture quality, should I be ashamed of myself for requesting a refund on those grounds? The fact that there are exceptions made for software is based on the historical premise that it was trivial to copy software and/or distribute it, it has absolutely no basis in the modern world (particularly for games on secure console platforms). Software vendors are simply taking advantage of a loophole that (a) the legal systems of various countries haven't had enough outcry/effort and/or (b) the public hasn't put enough pressure on vendors to revise yet.

Thinking about this a bit more, I should not have presented it as such a black-and-white issue, there are clear differences in terms of what the consumer is paying for in my examples. One is a service/experience and the other is a physical item, so a solution would have to be nuanced enough that it avoids or disincentivizes "completing" the game and then getting a refund. With Amazon, for example, I (as a customer) know there's a limit at which they will decide that the numbers are no longer working out in their favor if I request refunds on enough items, so it forces me to be selective about what I purchase and when I decide that asking for a refund is justified. Steam seems to be using a similar approach. Regardless, the idea that software is "media" like a film or record and should thus be completely immune from refund requests is outdated and anti-consumer, and being an apologist for software vendors hurts everyone in the long term (including you).

 

[AlexMogil]

Just sayin, now would be the perfect time to file a class action if anyone is going to while so many eyes and ears are pointed at the situation.

It would be an excellent way to earn a 10% coupon for a future purchase.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Obviously people have differing opinions on this and it probably makes a difference if you put in 20 hours of crashes or 20 hours of enjoyment. I just don't get how someone spends more than 4-5 hours trying to fix a game, much less 20+. At that point, I would have uninstalled, requested a refund and blacklisted the developer; which I'm sure many people will do now. I don't think Hello Games is surviving this.

Some would would say 2 hours is too long.

 

[REDSLATE]

than...

And, are people returning the game for being glitchy or because they're bored. One of those is far more justifiable than the other.

 

[Speely]

50 hours is the next meme.

I think you will be proven right haha.

 

[hamchan]

Wonder how many times this has been refunded for Steam to add this on the NMS Store page

Guess they're hoping this will discourage spam from people who don't know that you have to escalate it into a ticket and give legitimate reasons like the deceptive marketing or crashes to get a refund.

They must be getting so many.

 

[NoFaceNico]

I think Sean regrets selling it for $60. I'm sure he thought about it and still thinks about it every day. Don't think it was his idea, maybe Sony?

I used to defend the $60 pricing because with all the features they were touting it sounded like a $60 game. I didn't understand people who argued it should be less because it's coming from a small indie studio and I still think an argument based on that reasoning alone is flawed. But now that I understand what the game is, I have to agree that it doesn't look like people got $60 worth of value out of it now that those features went missing.

Indies should definitely be allowed to charge $60 for a new game if the content justifies the price, they shouldn't have a price cap. However, the door swings both ways, I can name a few games from AAA devs that aren't worth $60.

 

[valkillmore]

Sean Murray and Hello Games waiting for 30 days to pass before issuing a response on twitter.

Lol

 

[Omadahl]

than...

And, are people returning the game for being glitchy or because they're bored. One of those is far more justifiable than the other.

I think this is the crux of my argument with people returning the game after putting a lot of time into it. I can't personally justify returning it just because I'm done. I can put it aside and hope for the best with patches. I don't think Hello Games has any other option that to try to make this game appealing again. Who the hell would believe them in the future?

 

[LostDonkey]

Obviously people have differing opinions on this and it probably makes a difference if you put in 20 hours of crashes or 20 hours of enjoyment. I just don't get how someone spends more than 4-5 hours trying to fix a game, much less 20+. At that point, I would have uninstalled, requested a refund and blacklisted the developer; which I'm sure many people will do now. I don't think Hello Games is surviving this.

Let me put it this way. I only get a couple of hours per night to myself to game. Over a 2 week period that's around 30 hours give or take a day not playing at all. 1 hour out of every 2 I am forced to mess around with settings so prehistoric they cause me to restart the game and reload it back up just for changing a simple thing like V-sync from ON to OFF. The game freezes, crashes, does not deliver on any of the promotional material that was abundantly circulated prior to launch and is a complete shambles.

Now that's 15 hours troubleshooting a game that runs like complete and utter crap on my decent system (6700k, 16gbddr4, gtx 1070g1) and another 15 hours trudging through gameplay so janky that I give up completely when the game decides to finally lose all my data and force me to start again.

That's where my 30 hours have gone. I want a refund.

 

[magawolaz]

I've never had food poisoning but literally everyone I know who has did the bolded lol.

Now that's a bag analogy!

gotta agree, lol

 

[Stone Ocean]

Refund to me seems like the ultimate solution, one that involves money exchanging hands, and that is just messy from a business standpoint. I'd argue that a "good faith" measure to work towards a fix or patch first before a refund for broken items would be a better choice.

Of course if the company is full of jerks who can't/won't fix the game in any reasonable amount of time, then cool. Refund it is!

Oh, definitely agree that devs should be given a chance to fix games, but that is only fair if the consumer has plenty of time to refund the game if it's still broken afterwards, no matter how much they played it in between.

 

[TrumanBurbank]

Sean Murray must really regret having No Man's Sky as his Twitter handle right about now.

I think he'll quit Twitter like Lindelof after Lost.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I love this thread. It's turned into such a great cathartic payoff. Before these mass refunds the defenders of NMS/HG/Sean shrugged off the deceptive marketing and were blaming the disappointed players for "getting too hyped" and not appreciating this under-delivered masterpiece. There was nothing you could do about it so of course they're the ones in the right.

But now that many more people are able to get their money back these defenders have turned the argument into an ethical debate about whether you "deserve" a refund or if it's "right" to request a refund that's available to you. I cannot laugh harder at their reasoning. Eat shit you dumb fuckers and take a plate of it in a to-go box for Sean. You have no argument to support a developer that lies so blatantly so if you all the sudden want to get started with this ethical bullshit then you better be tweeting it at Sean.

This will go down in history as an instance where a game was so wantonly misleading that sellers had to actually step in and offer their consumers some additional recourse far and beyond what a game normally gets. Hello Games and Sean are done in the big video game business. I'm sure they'll release something else and collaborate on other things but this fiasco isn't a bruise to their reputation, it's a tattoo, they'll never be able to shake it. Molyneux didn't deliver on all his promises for Fable, BUT he still delivered Fable which had near-universal critical acclaim. Kojima sold Metal Gear Solid 2 on a demo that exclusively featured Snake and then switched to Raiden for most of the game, BUT he still delivered Metal Gear Solid 2 which had near-universal critical acclaim. Now Sean Murray didn't deliver on anything close to all of his promises for No Man's Sky and instead he delivered.... No Man's Sky, a 5/10 empty husk of a game.

I have no sympathy for the dev here. But you know what? I'm still interested in the game, just to see how much of a mess this game I was once hyped for turned out to be. So I'll buy it in a few months, but mark my words- I refuse to pay more than $10 for it. Also I'll make sure to buy used, that way Hello Games doesn't get a cent.

Goddamn

 

[Omadahl]

Let me put it this way. I only get a couple of hours per night to myself to game. Over a 2 week period that's around 30 hours give or take a day not playing at all. 1 hour out of every 2 I am forced to mess around with settings so prehistoric they cause me to restart the game and reload it back up just for changing a simple thing like V-sync from ON to OFF. The game freezes, crashes, does not deliver on any of the promotional material that was abundantly circulated prior to launch and is a complete shambles.

Now that's 15 hours troubleshooting a game that runs like complete and utter crap on my decent system (6700k, 16gbddr4, gtx 1070g1) and another 15 hours trudging through gameplay so janky that I give up completely when the game decides to finally lose all my data and force me to start again.

That's where my 30 hours have gone. I want a refund.

You're entirely justified in getting one. I'm more disgruntled with people that are getting a refund just because they can even if they had no issues with crashes or content.

 

[Vamphuntr]

Wonder how many times this has been refunded for Steam to add this on the NMS Store page

Buy with confidence. When your product page has a warning about refund policy you know there is something wrong with the product. On the discussion forum for the game it seems CS is trying to say the previous refunds were due to a system error.

 

[freenudemacusers]

You're entirely justified in getting one. I'm more disgruntled with people that are getting a refund just because they can even if they had no issues with crashes or content.

how many people have done that so far?

if it's only 15, then I think we're even stevens with hello games

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

than...

And, are people returning the game for being glitchy or because they're bored. One of those is far more justifiable than the other.

At this point I'm sure it's both. But thats what happens when the game is in such a state that you can point to the crashes, misleading marketing and missing features as a legitimate excuse.

Any way you slice it the game has obviously left a really bad taste in peoples mouth for this to happen.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Buy with confidence. When your product page has a warning about refund policy you know there is something wrong with the product.

LOL.

Yeah. I'm wondering if they're done giving out refunds. I sent them a message like an hour ago. We'll see. Have the feeling those of us who didn't move quicker are SOL.

 

[Speely]

Buy with confidence. When your product page has a warning about refund policy you know there is something wrong with the product. On the discussion forum for the game it seems CS is trying to say the previous refunds were due to a system error.

Damn. NMS bugs are spilling over into Steam itself now.

"So many of you are requesting refunds! Wow!"

 

[LostDonkey]

LOL.

Yeah. I'm wondering if they're done giving out refunds. I sent them a message like an hour ago. We'll see. Have the feeling those of us who didn't move quicker are SOL.

I sent them a manual ticket 22 hours ago. Haven't had a reply yet.

 

[cleveridea]

I think Valve customer support wish NMS released before their refund policy came in effect.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Guys, the best analogy was already posted a while back,

It's more like if you were eating a meal at a restaurant, and it tasted... off. And you knew it tasted off, but you kind of kept going because you were hungry, and you've been waiting for the meal for a long time. And you don't want to cause a scene. Then, as you're standing up, someone yells "They're cooking with rats!" and you look into the kitchen and see them skinning rats for all the meat in your meal.

Then you go to the kitchen to see what the hell is up before you vomit, and the entire staff runs away so you can't question them, and it turns out their sink doesn't even work so they weren't even washing their hands. The only person left in the building is a confused looking waiter, whom you must demand a refund from.

 

[Forerunner]

Wonder how many times this has been refunded for Steam to add this on the NMS Store page

Damn, people must be spamming for refunds. lol

I have about 15 hours of play so far and only had one crash. I'm still enjoying it, but it's rather shallow compared to how much they hyped it up to be. I see nothing wrong with people getting refunds on it, especially if they're running into constant performance issues.

 

[Brannon]

Wonder how many times this has been refunded for Steam to add this on the NMS Store page

Well damn, that's basically The Scarlet Letter. Didn't this happen with Aliens: Colonial Marines as well?

 

[ROFISH]

You're entirely justified in getting one. I'm more disgruntled with people that are getting a refund just because they can even if they had no issues with crashes or content.

I think that NMS is a special case of too much overhype, combined with obvious technical issues, combined with lacking announced features, combined with the full $60 price, and combined with the fact that the game is kinda, well, boring.

I think that a "truly no-issue" customer would be okay with keeping the product, even if it's a "I learned my lesson for next time" kind of deal. The fact that quite a few people are going out of their way to hassle customer support to attempt to get a refund says miles about the quality of the game; they hate it so much they're willing to waste time to maybe convince a customer support lead to give a refund.

 

[Gamezone]

This should teach game developers to not simply lie in order to sell their game. Not at this level at least.

 

[chillybright]

Obviously people have differing opinions on this and it probably makes a difference if you put in 20 hours of crashes or 20 hours of enjoyment. I just don't get how someone spends more than 4-5 hours trying to fix a game, much less 20+. At that point, I would have uninstalled, requested a refund and blacklisted the developer; which I'm sure many people will do now. I don't think Hello Games is surviving this.

How about the game crashes way more frequently to the point of becoming unplayable after certain "milestone"? Does that still make a difference?

 

[etta]

Wonder how many times this has been refunded for Steam to add this on the NMS Store page

This is why Steam's refund policy is so fucking important. It's bigger than just giving your money back, it's about punishing developers who dare sell their game based on lies.
The sooner Xbox and PlayStation implement a refund system, the sooner this industry of marketing and selling on hype based on fucking lies goes away. Developers will have to finally behave like good people again, who don't lie to your god damned face when trying to take your money.
Phil and Shu need to get on this shit ASAP, they gotta implement it together.

 

[Robobandit]

opened a support request on steam and they denied me. Said my purchase didn't quality and linked me to the return policy.

(12 hrs played)

 

[Omadahl]

How about the game crashes way more frequently to the point of becoming unplayable after certain "milestone"? Does that still make a difference?

Yeah. Someone pointed out the issue with Skyrim crashing after a certain point and that sounds similar. If a game becomes unplayable for any reason, you should be entitled to get your money back. I have enjoyed my 27 crash free hours but if the game just stopped working or wiped my data I'd be right in line with everyone else.

 

[Defect]

This game really should've been 20 bucks.

 

[Valentus]

Buy with confidence. When your product page has a warning about refund policy you know there is something wrong with the product. On the discussion forum for the game it seems CS is trying to say the previous refunds were due to a system error.

Lol at the response of one guy that says that he cant ask for refund after playing for 80 hours:

Sean Murray said that the 'good' planets were closer to the center. He lied to get people to keep playing beyond the return period. Intentionally.

This is just totally out of control.

 

[Brannon]

50 hours is the next meme.

No we already did that with Kirby Air Ride

 

[chillybright]

Yeah. Someone pointed out the issue with Skyrim crashing after a certain point and that sounds similar. If a game becomes unplayable for any reason, you should be entitled to get your money back.

Then we are in an agreement here. In case you still don't know, the "50 hour user" in question has his NMS crashes about every 20 mins after that amount of time. I would think any game that crashes this frequently as unplayable.

I got my refund from PSN customer support a couple nights ago.

50+ hours of playtime.

 

[Omadahl]

Then we are in an agreement here. In case you still don't know, the "50 hour user" in question has his NMS crashes about every 20 mins after that amount of time. I would think any game that crashes this frequently as unplayable.

Jesus. I would have burned down my house in a rage.

 

[mStudios]

60 American Dollars

 

[SomTervo]

60 American Dollars

Fifty British pounds

Spoiler

$65