Atleast you fully agree they lied.
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WOW OMG: Steam is refunding No Man's Sky even if you played more then 2 hours
- Thread starter Tony Iron Man Stark
- Start date
Atleast you fully agree they lied.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Are we seriously moving on from computer science majors to grabbing a sociology books?
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I need to get some more sleep. But my entire family is sick right now and I am coming down with it too. I woke up in a sweat after just 4 hours and couldn't get back to sleep. I may try again in a couple minutes lol.
Petrae
Member
Refunds aren't "a good thing" for any business, but if you get rid of them, you invite a whole lot of trouble. Ligitation, complaints to government, and-- worst of all-- you potentially lose your customers, which means less/no revenue.
Are there consumers who purposefully take advantage of refunds? Sure. Happened a ton in the late 1980s, with Nintendo carts. People played the games, beat them in less than a week, and returned them for refunds/exchanges. It's a big reason why retailers only exchange for the same title now unless the game is still sealed.
That said, refunds are always on a case-by-case basis. During my time in gaming retail, I've made exceptions to the "No Refunds" policy, based on certain situations. My employer didn't necessarily like it, but it went a long way to retaining the customer's business and prevented what could have been nasty repercussions from the consumer (Better Business Bureau complaints, litigation threats, etc.).
No Man's Sky is an interesting case, as far as refunds go. Sure, there are likely to be some consumers taking advantage of the wave of refunds... but there are cases that have legitimate gripes. Increasing/constant crashes after a certain elapsed time, discrepancies between what developers claimed would be in the game versus the final retail product, and other less-common complaints all bear consideration for legitimate refunds.
Personally? I would've liked to have seen Hello Games in court and have a judge determine whether refunds are generally justified, given the state of the game at launch and whether Murray's claims constitute false advertising/representation of the sold product. Perhaps it's time for legal precedent to be made in terms of video game software, what's acceptable on launch day in terms of games working as advertised, and positions on refund policies for physical and digital copies.
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
You just can't understand unless you're training to be a developer.
SolidChamp
Banned
That's complete fucking bullshit.
Can we get a mod in here? Should libel be a ban-worthy offense?
I EXPLAINED myself to the person who THOUGHT I was doing that IN A SERIES OF PMs. I HAVE those PMs to prove it. He admitted he was confused.
Nice try, but fuck off.
Permanently A
Junior Member
h o l y s h i t
Defenders in this thread went from slightly pro corporations to straight up anti consumer. Jesus Christ.
SolidChamp
Banned
I'm sorry, my swearing offends you?
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
That's... what I have been doing? At least if I understand you correctly, that was kind of vague. What makes you think otherwise?
As for the other I absolutely think there are there. I however don't think that has been the tone of the whole matter.
veloxStrix
Banned
No, no, you're thinking of libel.
People who are arguing that consumers should "be smart" and stop pre-ordering don't know what they're arguing for other than their own misplaced sense of righteousness. Pre-orders provides publishers with a useful metric on how well their game might sell and help them plan for production and even marketing accordingly. It's less relevant the more digital takes over yes, but saying that no one should ever pre-order because a few devs decided they could get away with misrepresenting their products does nothing except punish all publishers for the fault of the few.
Maybe all consumer laws should be abolished too because you know some people will abuse it.
Maybe all consumer laws should be abolished too because you know some people will abuse it.
SolidChamp
Banned
Winning post right here. Sad it ended up on the bottom of the last page.
Quoted for truth.
Necromanti
Member
Maybe you should take a deep breath and step away from the thread for a bit. You're going on about toxic attitudes existing on "both sides" of the debate, but whatever is happening here is clearly not a solution to that.
Nah, it's just that such a rich quantity of curse words usually implies a rather emotional investment
semiconscious
Member
question: you're admitted to an emergency room following an accident requiring surgery. how exactly do you proceed to quality check the multitude of products about to be used on you? 'libertarians' (smh)
...SolidChamp
Banned
Yep. That's the one. Having a derp moment. Need to really take it down to zero and then kindly remove myself from the keyboard. Thank you!
Agree on that one, so much misunderstanding going on here sometimes, 2-3 pages ago few people claimed iam defending the game, even though my post history says the opposite.
Some people need to chill.
so when someone gives you vague answers, instead of applying skepticism or critical thinking you immediately assume that what they are saying can be taken to whatever depth your mind creates? and because those vague statements didn't match your imagined meaning they are suddenly lies?
no doubt there are some things he lied about, like multiplayer, but vague statements do not equal a lie, nor do subjective things like "something amazing happens at the center of the galaxy."
Relaxed Muscle
Member
This thread is going to all kind of places...
SolidChamp
Banned
Apologies.
It's because I hate being accused of being something I'm not, having my words twisted or just having words shoved in my mouth, having certain ideals applied to me when they absolutely do not apply, and I hate being told that I'm making shit up.
How are those for reasons? Can I have those?
Are people really asking for a refund after having played 20 hours of the game?
In my opinion this should only be applicable if you found a game breaking bug, like erasing your save file. Mine was, and I still didn't ask for a refund due to the fact I put more than 50 hours in. I spent 3 weeks playing this game, I would feel terrible getting all my money back for something which I spent so much time with.
In my opinion this should only be applicable if you found a game breaking bug, like erasing your save file. Mine was, and I still didn't ask for a refund due to the fact I put more than 50 hours in. I spent 3 weeks playing this game, I would feel terrible getting all my money back for something which I spent so much time with.
SolidChamp
Banned
I also like this post, and this person.
It's unfortunate there aren't more of these posts in NMS threads.
Very sound advice. Cheers for that.
OldmanAndroid
Member
Apologies if I upset you, I said that in response to someone who said " Yes every company has spin, but when a company starts to lie what is in their product, that is were I draw the line." I was trying to make the point that we are all probably buying products from a company that has lied in the past.
Don't worry, thread will be here when you get back; see you at page 90!
I'm very much enjoying the game. But I also completely understand the reactions of people that feel they are misled, lied to. Although I frowned a bit at the 50 hours played and getting a refund I would never call that person a thief. Just a person that got a refund.
If you cannot handle the criticism of a game you like you better not be here. I think most that are venting in this thread wanted NMS to be the game they envisioned but didn't get.
On a personal note I'm mostly just dissapointed in Hello Games's very poor communication. It is infuriating not getting a statement, anything regarding the matter. Not so much an excuse of what happened; since it's probably very predictable what we would get as an answer (not enough time/performance/dev hell etc) combined with some apologies but what lies ahead.
Having some sort of roadmap, preview (with images) of what's coming, how they're going to improve the game, pacing, planet generation etc would put a lot of players at ease. (I think, it would for me personally).
Do I think they lied? Yes. With malicious intentions? No. Just ineptitude at play;
If you cannot handle the criticism of a game you like you better not be here. I think most that are venting in this thread wanted NMS to be the game they envisioned but didn't get.
On a personal note I'm mostly just dissapointed in Hello Games's very poor communication. It is infuriating not getting a statement, anything regarding the matter. Not so much an excuse of what happened; since it's probably very predictable what we would get as an answer (not enough time/performance/dev hell etc) combined with some apologies but what lies ahead.
Having some sort of roadmap, preview (with images) of what's coming, how they're going to improve the game, pacing, planet generation etc would put a lot of players at ease. (I think, it would for me personally).
Do I think they lied? Yes. With malicious intentions? No. Just ineptitude at play;
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Honestly a lot of folks are missing the point. The "He said she said" bullshit is not a real defense for a refund. Main reason being is that it is not the responsibility of Sony to check that.
What they are responsible for though is making sure that the game is stable enough to a reasonable extent to be sold as a product where this game obviously failed at. Which means Sony failed doing a proper submission check of the game itself as crashes like that are something which normally fails a game. And is beyond what should be considered the reasonable level of "will patch it ASAP" agreements that are made when requesting a waiver with present issues in order to meet the submission / launch deadline.
We are not talking about maybe 1 random crash, as this title obviously seems to have something which triggered the crashes after playing for X amount of time then the game can becomes highly unstable after.
Therefore while we agreed as a consumer to Sony's EULA with PSN / Digital Downloads they are also responsible for providing software that is functional as anything sold on their storefront is approved by them through the submission process.
What kind of marketing a company does and what is said, is not the responsibility of Sony once again, but software approved on the store front / being functional is. As it passes their submission which are various checks done to see if a title is sound for sale to the general public. So when you have an unstable game for sale through PSN the responsibility also falls on Sony to refund consumers who do not wish to "wait" for a patch by the developer as it is also their responsibility that said software was being sold in its current state. So passing the buck is not an option for them as a form of defense when a user makes a request for a refund due to software being "faulty"
Steam does not have this which is why you cant really compare the two for those who have tried.
Having seen first hand the types of crashes and how frequent they are, there is literally no way that this would have made it through the testing process and be OKed for sale. As it creates situations such as we have now with this game.
Once again the whole "Sean Lied" complaint honestly in my personal opinion is invalid as that is something which falls on Hello Games and not Sony itself. But the constant crashing issue is something that can be pinned directly to Sony as it is part of the process of approving a game for sale to the public.
All of the description and media used within a PSN store page is submitted by the publisher / developer and not something that Sony does. Sony makes the checks to ensure that all content uploaded fits the specifications for the PSN storefront and if those check out its good to go. They are not responsible for fact checking if it is by a third party source. Though if their legal teams deem what said publisher has done to be so harmful to the Sony itself they would pull the title from the store and offer refunds at the expense of said publisher as am sure there is something like that in the contract between Sony / Pub.
---
TLDR in short if a game becomes so unstable that a user is unable to play it for extended periods of time without crashing / freezing etc you are in your every right to request a refund. As Sony is directly responsible for approving said software for sale through their digital storefront PSN. That is something which can be made into an actual case to be taken to the FTC for example if Sony decides to attempt a stonewalling of a consumer. As the bottom line is they approved said software for sale, where if said product was faulty directly shows they knowingly approved a defective product for sale to the consumer.
This would not apply to something where there is a rare random crash / freeze once in a blue moon.
What they are responsible for though is making sure that the game is stable enough to a reasonable extent to be sold as a product where this game obviously failed at. Which means Sony failed doing a proper submission check of the game itself as crashes like that are something which normally fails a game. And is beyond what should be considered the reasonable level of "will patch it ASAP" agreements that are made when requesting a waiver with present issues in order to meet the submission / launch deadline.
We are not talking about maybe 1 random crash, as this title obviously seems to have something which triggered the crashes after playing for X amount of time then the game can becomes highly unstable after.
Therefore while we agreed as a consumer to Sony's EULA with PSN / Digital Downloads they are also responsible for providing software that is functional as anything sold on their storefront is approved by them through the submission process.
What kind of marketing a company does and what is said, is not the responsibility of Sony once again, but software approved on the store front / being functional is. As it passes their submission which are various checks done to see if a title is sound for sale to the general public. So when you have an unstable game for sale through PSN the responsibility also falls on Sony to refund consumers who do not wish to "wait" for a patch by the developer as it is also their responsibility that said software was being sold in its current state. So passing the buck is not an option for them as a form of defense when a user makes a request for a refund due to software being "faulty"
Steam does not have this which is why you cant really compare the two for those who have tried.
Having seen first hand the types of crashes and how frequent they are, there is literally no way that this would have made it through the testing process and be OKed for sale. As it creates situations such as we have now with this game.
Once again the whole "Sean Lied" complaint honestly in my personal opinion is invalid as that is something which falls on Hello Games and not Sony itself. But the constant crashing issue is something that can be pinned directly to Sony as it is part of the process of approving a game for sale to the public.
All of the description and media used within a PSN store page is submitted by the publisher / developer and not something that Sony does. Sony makes the checks to ensure that all content uploaded fits the specifications for the PSN storefront and if those check out its good to go. They are not responsible for fact checking if it is by a third party source. Though if their legal teams deem what said publisher has done to be so harmful to the Sony itself they would pull the title from the store and offer refunds at the expense of said publisher as am sure there is something like that in the contract between Sony / Pub.
---
TLDR in short if a game becomes so unstable that a user is unable to play it for extended periods of time without crashing / freezing etc you are in your every right to request a refund. As Sony is directly responsible for approving said software for sale through their digital storefront PSN. That is something which can be made into an actual case to be taken to the FTC for example if Sony decides to attempt a stonewalling of a consumer. As the bottom line is they approved said software for sale, where if said product was faulty directly shows they knowingly approved a defective product for sale to the consumer.
This would not apply to something where there is a rare random crash / freeze once in a blue moon.
Did the game feature a time limit on the box? If not, then those 3 weeks mean absolutely nothing. The product is broken, you just won't know until you've invested that much time in it.
You are also forgetting the fact that the game was sold partly (I'd say "mostly", but let's keep it civil) on lies. That, to me, is grounds for a refund, even if the consumer spent a lot of time searching in vain for those elements that were promised but never included in the game. And it seems Sony, Valve and Amazon are agreeing here.
I don't understand why exerting one's rights as a consumer should be seen as a terrible or shameful thing. Since when it is our duty to bow down to video game developers and publishers?
veloxStrix
Banned
Ah, my bad. I didn't go back through the thread. I still think it's an awful comparison, but I understand better why it was made.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I like to play guitar when I need to chill. Actually I usually take a cold shower or an ice bath but that's just because I polar bear swim and stuff lol. Wim Hoff FTW.
I don't know the point of posting a link to this video since I was directly responding to someone who stated that the vague answers (yes not all of them were vague, some were flat out misleading as I stated using words) led him to wild speculation
I guess it's easier to just hit ctrl-v than it is to actually think up a response, just as it's hard to have any sort of nuance to a discussion other than "this side good, that side bad"
freenudemacusers
Member
Anyone brick their ps4 yet
heliosRAzi
Banned
Sorry. Your initial post on that made it seem like you were talking about that specific GAF user and not these nebulous "thems" who are doing this because "they" want to jump on the bandwagon despite none of "them" having a presence in this thread.
Time used is completely irrelevant.
If a DVD you purchased starting freezing and locking up every 20 mins caused by a fault in the data you would be entitled to a refund. This is no different.
And if you were sold the product based on claims of content or functioning that were not present you are also entitled to a refund.
These companies are allowing the refunds for a simple reason. Its not because they want to loose money but they they are legally required to do so. Its not something for you to feel *terrible* about.
Or had a brick thrown at their console..
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So we have a game built upon lies and vague statements, how could people could fall into the hype? It was as simple as knowing scientific programming and reading sociology books.
SolidChamp
Banned
Keep fishing. I'm happy to show you the exchange of PMs from last night. The dude who thought he was calling me out on that needed to get the full picture before understanding where I was coming from, and my post history very clearly revealed that I had a "fuck Shahid" stance to his tweet if it had been in relation to Kyoufu getting a refund for a broken game (and later it was revealed that actually wasn't his stance).
lol wat
So consumer protection shouldn't exist? What about for the elderly or disabled? Should companies be able to take advantage of them? Should we allow cigarette companies to advertise to children again?
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
This title in particular does not seem to manifest crashes until after a certain amount of time is played. From there once whatever the threshold is met crashing becomes constant.
If that is the case then folks are very much so well within their right to refund a game. As that should have been caught during the submission process if it is constant. From my own personal account and the accounts of various users not only here on GAF that the game can become unstable the longer you play it to the point where crashes become not only constant but so random that it can happen at any time.
Am not sure if Sony has access to users logs in regards to system errors, but if they do they could very well take a look into logs and see if reports are true or not by a user.
Now if these crashes was something that happened very rarely what you are saying would have a point.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Go ahead and post them
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
No, I'm sorry lol, I really am sick, like IRL. And am running on 4 hours of sleep. But yeah, I think he was both vague at times and very clear at others. So both of you are correct and incorrect at the same time lol.
SolidChamp
Banned
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
"YOU PAYS YOUR MONEY, YOU TAKES YOUR CHOICE!"
heliosRAzi
Banned
Post it, PM it, do it
Some college level classes in body language and digital forensics helps as well.
If you watch Sean closely enough, there are a few tell signs for when he is lying. If you can't be bothered to watch for those, then you deserve a fucked up product and no refund; buyer beware.
"That nice young fellow sold me this tonic that cures my ailments. It didn't quite work, and now I'm addicted to cocaine. Oh well. Freedom!"