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WSJ: Will Young and Healthy Give Up Disposable Income to Pay for Insurance?

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Chojin

Member
Looking through this thread more thoroughly, it really does seem as if many people are only recently becoming aware of the conceptual framework of insurance generally. Yes, in any insurance system, the healthy effectively pay for the sick, the safe pay for the reckless, and the stable pay for the instable.

I don't mean you have to agree with this system, mind you. But some people seem to be saying it out loud as if it's a new idea, and if by bringing it to light I will respond, "oh my goodness, I never knew about this! How have I been played for a fool for so long?" Yes, I know I'm paying for old sick people. In various ways, I'm also paying for bad drivers and the financially irresponsible. I'm paying for obese people. I'm paying for roads I will never drive on and street signs I will never see in distant parts of my state. I am paying for the education of people I will never meet and for the upbringing of children I will never know.

Yes, I knew about this, and I am fine with it, because that is the purpose of a society.

It's the "fuck you got mine" mentality. People don't see the larger scope of full coverage for everyone and what what would entail. Everyone paying into insurance would lower costs for everything else in the long run. But people want an immediate effect and gratification. Also the idea that you're helping other people can be very uhm... Distasteful(?) for some?

Its the same reason why people bitch about sick leave and people "taking advantage" over it. When sick people stay home or go to the doctor and get it taken care of, it means less sick people getting other people infected and making the entire workplace suffer in productivity.

I think its all about Loss Aversion too. People who can afford it think they are getting the raw deal when they see other's needing assistance. Forgetting the fact that they're already advantaged in every other way. It's the whole Lucky Ducky comics brought to life.

Also its about short term thinking. People think to themselves "It's bullshit my premiums are higher than older people, and I'm healthier than older people so why should I have to pay so much" and don't realize that they too will be old one day. But then again, I guess everyone that thinks that is an Ubermencsh Adonis and will never suffer anything ever and would flat out refuse any sort of assistance if they need it.
 
Looking through this thread more thoroughly, it really does seem as if many people are only recently becoming aware of the conceptual framework of insurance generally. Yes, in any insurance system, the healthy effectively pay for the sick, the safe pay for the reckless, and the stable pay for the instable.

I don't mean you have to agree with this system, mind you. But some people seem to be saying it out loud as if it's a new idea, and if by bringing it to light I will respond, "oh my goodness, I never knew about this! How have I been played for a fool for so long?" Yes, I know I'm paying for old sick people. In various ways, I'm also paying for bad drivers and the financially irresponsible. I'm paying for obese people. I'm paying for roads I will never drive on and street signs I will never see in distant parts of my state. I am paying for the education of people I will never meet and for the upbringing of children I will never know.

Yes, I knew about this, and I am fine with it, because that is the purpose of a society.

Fantastic post.
 
If its 50 dollars a month for me, I'll get health insurance. Otherwise I don't have enough money to be dropping 150 a month on this. That would make me worry about being able to afford a lot of things I rely on.
 

daycru

Member
Jesus fuck. So not only you have to pay crazy money for insurance, but that insurance does not even cover everything?

Most people who go bankrupt from medical bills have health insurance. Which is why it's so funny to me that everyone is going to be bullied into buying it.
 
Jesus fuck. So not only you have to pay crazy money for insurance, but that insurance does not even cover everything?

150 a month isn't "crazy money" but yeah it doesn't cover everything but it covers much of what young adults need. Preventative care is free or has a small co-pay usually.

That deductible is for catastrophic stuff.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
I'm 28 years old. A contract worker trying to pay my way back through a second degree. I make a little under 34,000 a year before taxes. I pay 900 a month in rent, 550 a month in tuition, 100-200 in utilities. A car note, car insurance, food, necessities, gas and still have to buy things like textbooks and school supplies.

Read my post history about my support of obamacare and UHC. You'll find I was at one time one of this forums most vocal advocates.

Now how the fuck you continue to try and spin this current iteration of the law as anything but a complete fuck you to many of the youth today is beyond me. It's literally asking me to pay money I can't afford for the privledge of paying another 5000-6000 dollars if anything were to actually be seriously wrong with me. It's horseshit. It's subsidizing the poor and the old on the backs of the youth(which honestly would be fine if done in a responsible manner, because its how insurance works, but that isn't happening now) who can barely(if at all) afford it. And don't give me this crap that its better to pay 6000-8000 instead of 100,000. Me and most in my situation will still end up in a dire situation if it occurs. And for the majority that nothing will occur, they live with an even worse financial situation and less disposable income in a fragile economy that is in desperate need of increased consumer spending and demand.

And dont just think im some odd exception. i worked in the service industry for many years. imagine the difficulty of a moderately successful server/bartender making 30,000 a year but sporadically and inconsistantly. maybe one year they qualify for subsidies but not the next. or the trouble that will come in the summer slow season when utilities are high and income is low but the healthcare bills still roll in. The fact you and others are jumping through hoops having to explain away these criticisms should set off the self-reflective bells.


The democrats lack of balls, like with most of their major legislative initiatives for the last thirty years, is so compromised because of a pussyfied backbone that they compromise what is initially good legislation in favor of shitty legislation that leaves their opponents still angry at them and alienates many of the people they initially tried to help because they are so concerned with the appearance of bipartisanship and appearing centrist that they constantly start at an already compromised position and just move further and further to the right on everything. Scared to admit that government isn't some evil boogeyman like Reagan framed it and that in instances, like healthcare, government administrated care is the ONLY fair and logical course of reform. Maybe if they started at the lefts equivelent of the republicans ideas we might have at least ended up with something that doesn't completely fuck many of today's youth. Which just may risk burning some bridges with a demographic that they have overwhelmingly dominated in terms of support.


So now we have a law that is still vehemently hated by the people they wanted to persuade. And in the process they fucked over many of the people they wanted to support and then there are those not in either camp who are only seeing marginal benefits which isn't going to be enough to build a coalition to push further reform and in turn might just have created enough apathy and/or dissent that a growing opposition will be able to neuter if not completely repeal the law in coming years.

And sadly enough I am struggling right now with who I actually want to support coming up because democrats don't have the balls to fix this clusterfuck but republicans do. But their answer means a worse situation for everyone and a regression of the national conversation that probably won't spark back up for at least another decade.

Once again democrats screwed themselves by screwing the very people they aimed to help.

I hate to break this to you but you are an adult now. Welcome to the real world! It sucks.
 
Jesus fuck. So not only you have to pay crazy money for insurance, but that insurance does not even cover everything?

That's right...

There was a time in this country where you could get insurance that didn't have a deductible at a reasonable price (it still exists, but its crazy expensive now, assuming you can even find it).

Now, yes its still potentially cheaper then not having it, but you are effectively paying twice...

That deductible is a per/issue-yearly thing as well (some plans the deductible will reset every year and/or per medical issue).
 
I am paying $600 every month for me and wife. No kids. Thats $7200 a year. $36000 every 5 years. $72000 every 10 years. All because fat fucks decide to order super size soda and fries and get sick, and insurance CEOs buying yachts. 'Murca.
 

Wiktor

Member
When I was a kid, watching all those movies made me want to live in USA. But now I see that unless you are rich, that’s a terrible idea. It boggles my mind how any developed country can have health system as bad as this one.
 
Just remember people we still need to be fighting for things like single payer. This is just a step.

This bill is going to enable a lot of people to get insurance that didn't have it, that's really good. And it also opens the idea for more innovation in states. Wasn't Vermont talking about single payer?

The way the law is structured its also a lot easier to include a public option down the road (just pass an amendment to the law putting a government plan in the exchanges) than it every would have been without. This laws is by no means perfect but its progress on the what existed before and it makes the march to universal health care much easier. Your going to start seeing in a post Obama democratic primary democrats proposing reforms that have more public control. Your not going to see them move backwards.

Complaints are valid but they should be directed at shifting the debate and making the law better rather than just opposing the law because its not perfect.
 

Balphon

Member
Not necessarily. In 2012, the minimum household income to be exempt from the fine was a total income of ~23,000 or below. From there, you are correct that the fine is scaled to a percentage of income.

I may be mistaken, but I thought that exemption was limited to those whose income is below the IRS filing threshold, which would be ~$9500 for a single person. Someone working at or near full time at $12.50/hr would have a gross annual income of around $26000.
 

mclem

Member
That said, dentistry is a poor example, it's one of the few things in the NHS where you have to pay an fee to use (specifically, £18 for check ups, £49 for minor surgical work such as removing teeth, and £214 for the more heavy duty procedures, and for dentures). That said, there's a bunch of exceptions, including everyone who is under 18 years of age, pregnant women (or women who gave birth in the last 12 months), people on Income Support, Jobseeker's Allowance or the Universal Credit, or Pension Credit.

Amusingly, one of the things I decided shortly after starting at my new job (I'm in the UK) is to look into the employer-offered dental insurance options. I'd been very poor with dental visits - I genuinely hadn't made a trip in about seventeen years, when I was a teenager and my parents could actually *make* me go! My teeth were covered in tartar, although I hadn't ever actually felt like I had toothache. I signed up to the employer dental insurance, and then went to the local NHS dentist.

He was unimpressed, naturally... but as surprised as I was to find that there wasn't really anything wrong with them. One deep clean later and a little bit of advice for maintaining the teeth at the back and I was out of there. No removals, no fillings, nothing.

I do feel like I've got away with murder here! I'm being very careful from here on in, and am lined up for a return visit in October
 

Rockandrollclown

lookwhatyou'vedone
Jesus fuck. So not only you have to pay crazy money for insurance, but that insurance does not even cover everything?

As far as I understand it, you pay an absurd amount per month, then lets say you have a $5000 deductible, I don't believe insurance covers 100% at that point, thats when your 80-20 or more commonly 70-30 split kicks in. So you pay hundreds a month, and on a $10,000 medical bill you'd pay about $6500 of it, someone correct me if I am wrong. As I've said a million times, there's some good stuff in ACA, but it doesn't address the root issue with American healthcare which is cost.

Just try to get a hospital to give you an exact amount on how much something will cost ahead of time. They can't do it because they seemingly decide what to charge you on the spot. They throw out asinine costs with the plan on negotiating the real cost with insurance agents/lawyers/what have you. Uninsured people were never the #1 issue with our healthcare system, the vast majority of Americans are insured and still go bankrupt from medical bills. Yes ACA may very well lower costs, but I remain extremely skeptical that without price controls we will ever get costs where they should be.

From my understanding what we pay for the monthly cost of insurance alone exceeds what most people pay in tax for healthcare in socialized medicine countries. Then there is the astronomical cost of actually using your insurance, which I feel gets overlooked in these conversations, like insurance is a cure all.
 

bro1

Banned
I'm a 37 year old EXTREMELY healthy male and without health insurance I would be broke. When I developed Ulcerated Colitis, my medical bills would have soared without insurance. My infusions/medicine/shots would have cost me $8K a month without insurance. My family insurance is $400 a month plus a $3000 annual OOP fee.
 
Am I missing it, or is there a website that can roughly tell me what I will be expected to pay/what benefits I can receive from the ACA based on my age/marital status/income? I see that sometime in October we'll have some more hard-set guidelines, but is there anything between now and then? I see Black Mamba is giving out some estimates for people, can he/she or anyone else tell me where he/she is getting their info? Googling shows me some seemingly outdated calculators, but nothing about the different level plans or how to qualify for them.
 

Opiate

Member
I may be mistaken, but I thought that exemption was limited to those whose income is below the IRS filing threshold, which would be ~$9500 for a single person. Someone working at or near full time at $12.50/hr would have a gross annual income of around $26000.

No, this is correct, we're just reaching different conclusions about what that data means. We effectively agree.

If the person working at Wal Mart is single, has no dependents, and works 40 hours a week all year, he will be subject to the fine. If he is a part time employee, that won't be true. If he's married with any dependents, that (may) not be true. If he makes less than 12.50 hour (which most Wal Mart employees do), it won't be true.

We agree that there is a threshold, we just weren't necessarily going in to the 12.50/hour example with the same specific assumptions.
 

Dali

Member
So I guess the big question is... If I break my ankle in the aforementioned pickup game will the insurance be enough to cover the young person and convince them they'll really earn piece of mind by having insurance... Or is it really a case of any of the affordable plans a healthy youngster would get would still have them fucked by the deductible for something like surgery for setting bones, getting acl fixed, etc.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
So I guess the big question is... If I break my ankle in the aforementioned pickup game will the insurance be enough to cover the young person and convince them they'll really earn piece of mind by having insurance... Or is it really a case of any of the affordable plans a healthy youngster would get would still have them fucked by the deductible for something like surgery for setting bones, getting acl fixed, etc.

A broken ankle should be handled by an urgent care facility not the ER. I think on the shit plan you would still have to meet the deductible but the overall cost would be lower. On the "better" plans this would be like a $100 co-pay.

If you need surgery like that on any plan you are going to have to meet the deductible.
 

Bleepey

Member
I know fuck-all about insurance or health care, but isn't the problem that so many people have health insurance? Why is the solution to have even more people buy health insurance? Isn't the problem that health care is so ridiculously expensive that no one can afford it, so they have to buy insurance in the first place? So, rather than make health care more affordable, they're just trying to get everyone on health insurance? That seems to me like propping up a broken system rather than fixing anything. But again, I really don't understand any of this.

The way insurance works is that the people who don't use the service subidise those who do use the service. This is especially the case in health insurance where the young healthy and economically productive subsidise the old, sick and retired who drain it.Insurers try to have as large a pool of people, preferably of those who are least likely to drain money paid into the insurance pool, because it makes it more predictable to predict behaviour as well as there being a larger number of people who will pay into it. UHC ensures that individuals who can subsidise everyone else i.e the young and healthy can pay into it as well as ensures that the old can get affordable insurance and the insurance company does not go out of business paying healthcare expenses. I had an interview with an insurance company and this brings back memories.
 
I am paying $600 every month for me and wife. No kids. Thats $7200 a year. $36000 every 5 years. $72000 every 10 years. All because fat fucks decide to order super size soda and fries and get sick, and insurance CEOs buying yachts. 'Murca.

I code a child that gets a very specific infusion twice a week for a very rare disease. It costs over 500k a year just for his infusions and that is just delaying the inevitable. He will never see his teenage years.

It's not just fat people for Christ's sake.
 
A broken ankle should be handled by an urgent care facility not the ER. I think on the shit plan you would still have to meet the deductible but the overall cost would be lower. On the "better" plans this would be like a $100 co-pay.

If you need surgery like that on any plan you are going to have to meet the deductible.

Urgent care would more than likely send you to an ER depending on the type of fracture. Now you have 2 bills for the same service!

One of the reasons health care and insurance discussions frustrate me so much is that extremely few people have any idea what they are talking about. I see way too many off hand comments put forth as fact. Even doctors generally only see one side of the story.
 

Angry Fork

Member
Looking through this thread more thoroughly, it really does seem as if many people are only recently becoming aware of the conceptual framework of insurance generally. Yes, in any insurance system, the healthy effectively pay for the sick, the safe pay for the reckless, and the stable pay for the instable.

I don't mean you have to agree with this system, mind you. But some people seem to be saying it out loud as if it's a new idea, and if by bringing it to light I will respond, "oh my goodness, I never knew about this! How have I been played for a fool for so long?" Yes, I know I'm paying for old sick people. In various ways, I'm also paying for bad drivers and the financially irresponsible. I'm paying for obese people. I'm paying for roads I will never drive on and street signs I will never see in distant parts of my state. I am paying for the education of people I will never meet and for the upbringing of children I will never know.

Yes, I knew about this, and I am fine with it, because that is the purpose of a society.

Problem is I know my money will at some point go to private for-profit institutions since it's still insurance and not the state where it can be used only for other working people like myself. I honestly wouldn't give a shit about letting go of 70% of my income if it means I (and other workers, students) are guaranteed rights to education, housing, food etc. from birth.

But this whole republican scheme of forcing workers (and even worse the ones who have to spend half their day dedicated to school) to give money to old white guys new golf cart/yacht club membership for something that should be in the hands of the public is fucking infuriating.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Urgent care would more than likely send you to an ER depending on the type of fracture. Now you have 2 bills for the same service!

One of the reasons health care and insurance discussions frustrate me so much is that extremely few people have any idea what they are talking about. I see way too many off hand comments put forth as fact. Even doctors generally only see one side of the story.

What? The ER is for life threatening situations. If the bone is sticking out yeah go to the ER. If you just broke/sprained your ankle you will be fine.
 
I've always trusted the WSJ before to be fair and balanced when it comes to--

original.jpg
Everybody except the single chick look worried as hell.
 
It's important to keep in mind that if you can't find coverage that will cost less than 8% of your monthly income, you're exempt from the penalty and you don't have to get insurance.

So they have basically come to the conclusion that insurance should cost about 8% of your pay... I wonder what the numbers would look like if we just had an 8% healthcare tax across the board for everyone?

I just checked, and WITH employer insurance plus the medicare tax I pay 8.09%. I wonder how much more my employer could pay me if they didn't contribute a shit ton to my health insurance. As a cherry on top, I wouldn't have to worry about going to the ER and finding out a month later that the anesthesiologist wasn't "in network" and I still owe them $300 on top of the $50 co-pay.
 
Urgent care would more than likely send you to an ER depending on the type of fracture. Now you have 2 bills for the same service!

One of the reasons health care and insurance discussions frustrate me so much is that extremely few people have any idea what they are talking about. I see way too many off hand comments put forth as fact. Even doctors generally only see one side of the story.

Nah man, the ER will put a split on it and tell you to make an appointment with an orthopedist.
 
Problem is I know my money will at some point go to private for-profit institutions since it's still insurance and not the state where it can be used only for other working people like myself. I honestly wouldn't give a shit about letting go of 70% of my income if it means I (and other workers, students) are guaranteed rights to education, housing, food etc. from birth.

But this whole republican scheme of forcing workers (and even worse the ones who have to spend half their day dedicated to school) to give money to old white guys new golf cart/yacht club membership for something that should be in the hands of the public is fucking infuriating.

80% of your money goes towards health care with this new bill. Its better than what they were doing before.
 

charsace

Member
This shouldn't be a problem, but a lot of other shit, like student loans, makes it a serious problem. If you are under 35 you are going to be paying for a lot of shit that older motherfuckers did in the 80's and 90's. Some times I just want to leave america and not look back. Public education, college education, and the medical system have all been compromised and corrupted by people that came before me. :(
 

Slavik81

Member
I don't understand why they don't just make it the law to get it (I understand a lot of people can't afford it, but presumably they aren't the ones intended to be targeted by the fine, either?)
What would the penalty for breaking that law be? The obvious answer is a fine. That's the individual mandate tax.

Theoretically, people who can't afford it are given discounts so they can afford it, or qualify for free medical care through other programs.

Whether practice matches theory is something that will be discovered over the next few years.
 

Bleepey

Member
Jesus fuck. So not only you have to pay crazy money for

The reasoning for it is sound. It's to prevent something called moral hazard. Basically when people get health insurance by people being insured they may consume more than they need to. By having a deducitble it ensures they do not consume more than they have too but if they need treatment they can get it without technically wiping their bank account. So if you get sick, and assuming you have insurance and a $1000 deductable a year before the insurance kicks in, you may not want to consume any excess medical treatment like excess medication or doctors visits since you will have to pay for everything up to $1000 out of pocket. But if say you get hit by a car and treatment costs $10000 the insurance will kick in to protect you.
 

Pyrokai

Member
I am a young 20-something and I finally got a job that provides benefits.

So I'll be buying my insurance.

Hope that helps :p
 
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