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Wukong director on the delay of Xbox port directly for the first time: need couple of years optimization experience to handle the shared 10 GB RAM

Ar¢tos

Member
If your opponent is self-owning and promoting a game you didn't moneyhat on your platform, then why stop him?

Let the weirdo have his tantrum and reap the rewards of increased awareness of the game's existence on your platform (which happened).
"Look at that amazing game that is available on PS5 but not on our console because of reasons that aren't not convenient for us to talk about!"
So unfair!!!
Anyway, we repeat, the game is great and it's is available on PS5, BUT NOT ON OUR CONSOLES, so please wait until we can confirm if the game will ever come to Xbox, please don't buy a PS5 to play it!"
 

Topher

Identifies as young
So explain to me how it works that "Microsoft kept it deliberately vague" yet everyone and their mother in this thread is blaming Microsoft for the lie? You can't have it both ways.

Also, if it's that's clear what Microsoft was talking about despite being "vague", where was Sony to deny the story?

Like I said, we can read between the lines. The implication can be a lie and not be illegal. I mean…..how the hell would Microsoft even know if there was a deal? Corporate espionage?

Sony could offer rebuttal for the many things Phil Spencer has said over the years and yet they have remained quiet so not responding is normal for them.
 
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jm89

Member
Why don't they just release it via Stream and that's it?
Xcloud uses series s versions of games even though it runs on series x hardware. Not sure if that's always the case, but from digital foundry testing they found that to be the case.

 
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panda-zebra

Member
Xcloud uses series s versions of games even though it runs on series x hardware. Not sure if that's always the case, but from digital foundry testing they found that to be the case.

ShartDelivery™
 

Astray

Member
So we are to believe that Game Science told Microsoft about a "deal" Game Science made with Sony? And somehow Sony made an exclusivity deal with zero marketing behind it. That make no sense.

This all sounds like gossip to me.
Either that or he's accusing Microsoft of corporate espionage rofl.

I swear this year started off on the best foot possible.

laughing GIF
 

Wolzard

Member
He could be talking about any one of those consoles. It would be nice if he had developed it.

The OS can't predict what data the game will use next. It's the game that has to tell the OS, what data goes where.
Something like the dev defining the slower pool to be used as a streaming cache. Or use it as some sort of victim cache, but with memory.
And yes, the slower speed can affect performance, depending on what the game needs at the moment. Especially if it has to shuffle data between one pool and another.

The OS does not predict, it basically defines where the memory will be allocated, it is its primary function and even one of the reasons for its existence.
In the past, on rudimentary consoles, you had to manage memory manually. Nowadays no one does this anymore, because OSes do this automatically and doing this on current hardware is very complex.

Memory will not affect performance, because the memory that requires the most speed is that of the GPU and it will hardly exceed 10 GB, as the CPU also needs memory and the slowest bus only has 3.5 GB available, so it is It is very likely that the CPU will use more than that.

In the past, Guerrilla Games demonstrated what memory usage was like in Killzone ShadowFall on PS4. Of the 8 GB, they had 5 GB free to use, as 3 GB was reserved by the operating system. Of this 5 GB, 3 GB was used by the GPU and 1.5 GB by the CPU and the rest was used for other tasks.

If we do the proportional calculation, then supposedly, in the new generation, the GPU should use around 8 GB and the CPU, 5.5 GB.

wx7XRap.png


Eh8xAqBXsAE_ToQ.jpg


images


The GTX 970 was a good example of the issues that come with having 2 pools of vram , each with it's own speed.
It's a more extreme case than the Series S/X, but it still stands as a cautionary tale.

I don't like the example, because it is very discrepant. The XSX memories have a 40% difference in performance. The 970's memories have an 86% difference.
And the situations are different, as it is easier to saturate the 970's 4 GB of VRAM than to saturate the XSX's VRAM.

And even with this discrepancy, in the saturation tests of the 970's 4 GB of VRAM, it only lost 3% of performance.


A kit of DDR5, has much greater bandwidth that just 64 GB/s.
Even a kit of DDR5 dual channel, with a relatively low speed of 6000 Gbps, has a theoretical bandwidth of 96Gb/s.
If we start going to 6400 Gbps kits, we go above the 100Gb/s.
But on PC, it's not important to have high memory bandwidth. CPUs benefit much more from having low latency than memory bandwidth.
That's why it's normal to have DDR5 with latency of 70ns or lower. But with GDDR6, it's more in line with 150ns. Including on consoles.

As you show, the Series X GPU, has basically only 10Gb of memory. So when it needs to use more, it has to shuffle data from one pool to another. Something that the PS5 doesn't need to do.

The GPU uses its portion of memory, but the CPU also needs it. The consoles' unified memory just eliminates some bottlenecks and makes it more flexible. But the operation is still the same as a PC, with each component of the system using its portion of memory (not only the CPU, but the SSD, the Bluray driver, the network components, the audio driver, the controls driver , etc.).

The point is that DDR4/5 memories have enough bandwidth for current games on PC. The XSX uses 336 GB/s for its CPU, which is more than enough and should compensate for the GDDR6 latency.
 
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winjer

Gold Member
The OS does not predict, it basically defines where the memory will be allocated, it is its primary function and even one of the reasons for its existence.
In the past, on rudimentary consoles, you had to manage memory manually. Nowadays no one does this anymore, because OSes do this automatically and doing this on current hardware is very complex.

Memory will not affect performance, because the memory that requires the most speed is that of the GPU and it will hardly exceed 10 GB, as the CPU also needs memory and the slowest bus only has 3.5 GB available, so it is It is very likely that the CPU will use more than that.

In the past, Guerrilla Games demonstrated what memory usage was like in Killzone ShadowFall on PS4. Of the 8 GB, they had 5 GB free to use, as 3 GB was reserved by the operating system. Of this 5 GB, 3 GB was used by the GPU and 1.5 GB by the CPU and the rest was used for other tasks.

If we do the proportional calculation, then supposedly, in the new generation, the GPU should use around 8 GB and the CPU, 5.5 GB.

wx7XRap.png


Eh8xAqBXsAE_ToQ.jpg


images

We don't need to extrapolate from the PS4. We already know that the PS5 has 2.5GB of memory dedicated to the OS.
The rest is shared by the CPU and the CPU and can be accessed by each at any time, just by mapping addresses.
If the Series S/X use a similar amount, that leaves 3.5GB on the slowest pool. But the thing is, if the CPU and GPU parts have different memory channels, then it will require data transfers between pools, making it less efficient.
But if the CPU and GPU have the same memory controller, with access to all the memory channels, then devs should use the slower memory pool as a sort of caching pool.

I don't like the example, because it is very discrepant. The XSX memories have a 40% difference in performance. The 970's memories have an 86% difference.
And the situations are different, as it is easier to saturate the 970's 4 GB of VRAM than to saturate the XSX's VRAM.

And even with this discrepancy, in the saturation tests of the 970's 4 GB of VRAM, it only lost 3% of performance.


I had a GTX970 and did try some games to force the card to use the last 500Mb of vram. The card actually did all it could not to spill into that part of memory.
But I did manage to get it to do that it a heavily modded Skyrim. And performance tanked as soon as the card hit those las 500Mb. It was not just 3%.

This account doesn't make sense, the GPU uses its portion of memory, but the CPU also needs it. The consoles' unified memory just eliminates some bottlenecks and makes it more flexible. But the operation is still the same as a PC, with each component of the system using its portion of memory (not only the CPU, but the SSD, the Bluray driver, the network components, the audio driver, the controls driver , etc.).

The point is that DDR4/5 memories have enough bandwidth for current games on PC. The XSX uses 336 GB/s for its CPU, which is more than enough and should compensate for the GDDR6 latency.

Having a unified memory pool eliminates the nee to shuffle data between the ram and vram, such as happens in the PC. And it can be a bottleneck, especially with cards that have a lower bandwidth PCI-e connection.
But this does not eliminate the memory bandwidth and latency of the GPU or the CPU.
That you think that memory bandwidth can compensate for memory latency, shows a huge lack of hardware knowledge. Especially with regards for a CPU's performance.
 

YeulEmeralda

Linux User
It's really simple if the Xbox had sold well in Asia the developers would have found a way. Just as some genius managed to port Deus Ex on PS2 or more recently Witcher 3 on Switch.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
The local co-op only*

Online co-op is still there on Series S as with all the other versions.




Yep, the bunch of examples I shared, and the many others I didn't, all show that it's entirely possible to get games with 16GB PC RAM requirements running on Series S with reasonable concessions.

Games like HB2, Indy, Outlaws, STALKER 2 even include RTGI (or Lumen GI in the UE5 cases) while working around the limited RAM pool.

But, obviously, if a game doesn't run solid around the board even on much stronger hardware like the PS5 Pro, the chances of it being well optimized on lower end hardware are proportionally low.
I was going to ask if Outlaws was UE5, and I think it was. It is likely a skill and cost issue, IMO.

I am kind of surprised MS wouldn’t dedicate a few engineers to help. Or maybe dev doesn’t feel it’s worth it at this juncture.
 

Astray

Member
The developer might be telling the truth and he might not be.

What we do know is it was announced as a multiplatform game, before suddenly becoming a Sony/PC exclusive.

Naturally in this industry that indicates a deal was cut between Sony and the developer, since the Xbox version just vanished. Gamers were claiming Sony was helping fund the game’s development, so it was their game.

Now we’re told the Xbox version was seemingly always on the table, but has no release because the developer of one of the best looking modern releases couldn’t figure out how to get the game working on Xbox?

Naturally the opinions of whose version of things is the truth will depend on what console that person favors.
What you just wrote is complete nonsense.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
The developer might be telling the truth and he might not be.

What we do know is it was announced as a multiplatform game, before suddenly becoming a Sony/PC exclusive.

Naturally in this industry that indicates a deal was cut between Sony and the developer, since the Xbox version just vanished. Gamers were claiming Sony was helping fund the game’s development, so it was their game.

Now we’re told the Xbox version was seemingly always on the table, but has no release because the developer of one of the best looking modern releases couldn’t figure out how to get the game working on Xbox?

Naturally the opinions of whose version of things is the truth will depend on what console that person favors.
Not really. Because logic and common sense would trump all.
  • Is there any precedence of a console company securing an exclusivity deal and then not mentioning it even once? No.
  • Is there any precedence of a console company securing an exclusivity deal and then not marketing the game? No.
  • Is there any precedence of a game studio, bound by an exclusivity deal, mentioning that the game is coming soon on a competing platform? No.
  • Is there any precedence of a game studio clearly lying that the game isn't on another platform due to a technical issue when in reality it's a console exclusivity deal? No.
  • Is there any precedence of game developers struggling with Xbox Series S? Yes.
  • Is there any precedence of a demanding game skipping Xbox due to Series S and memory limitations? Yes (Baldur's Gate 3).
Common sense dictates that Microsoft and these shill journalists were lying.
 
The developer might be telling the truth and he might not be.

What we do know is it was announced as a multiplatform game, before suddenly becoming a Sony/PC exclusive.

Naturally in this industry that indicates a deal was cut between Sony and the developer, since the Xbox version just vanished. Gamers were claiming Sony was helping fund the game’s development, so it was their game.

Now we’re told the Xbox version was seemingly always on the table, but has no release because the developer of one of the best looking modern releases couldn’t figure out how to get the game working on Xbox?

Naturally the opinions of whose version of things is the truth will depend on what console that person favors.
Yes, xbox version disappearing is sus.

Looks like exclusivity period is over and dev is looking at porting the game. But has realised they will need to actually optimise if they wanna get it running.

I think they should take on the task for their team’s expertise sake.

Their future games will run better on variety of hardware.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
So explain to me how it works that "Microsoft kept it deliberately vague" yet everyone and their mother in this thread is blaming Microsoft for the lie? You can't have it both ways.

Also, if it's that's clear what Microsoft was talking about despite being "vague", where was Sony to deny the story?
it's not Sony's job to comment on every crazy Microsoft shill on the internet.

In fact from Sony's POV is probably better for people to think there is an exclusive deal, even if there is not. If it gets even a few Xbox owners to just buy a damn PlayStation if they want to play PlayStation games, instead of keeping with their perpetual persecution complex, they get the benefit of exclusivity without actually having to pay for it.
 
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Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Yes, xbox version disappearing is sus.

Looks like exclusivity period is over and dev is looking at porting the game. But has realised they will need to actually optimise if they wanna get it running.

I think they should take on the task for their team’s expertise sake.

Their future games will run better on variety of hardware.
Still going on ... lol :D

Always Sunny Reaction GIF


By the way, in case you missed it.

 

PaintTinJr

Member
Per the DF video, the one on one fight where the game seems to drop frame-gen, it drops to 40~ on PS5 Pro.

Clearly there's plenty of improvements / optimizations that can be done across the board, and not just for Series S.


..
Surely the obvious takeaway from this is: the game was made with UE5 for PC potato because the devs are middleware game developers, not console game developers? And where PC at an OS level or graphics driver level is designed to virtualise away inactive bloat, PS5 and Pro really do need console programmers to replace that bloat, even the PS5 UE5 SDK bloat with a stripped down solution.

It is when we hear this so long after launch, it is clear certain game faceoffs should be done under the advisory note they are basically dirty PC ports made by novice middleware game devs, and not to be used for inferring anything about console hardwares.

I'm not a fan of the Series S splitting the hardware gen, but the idea that this PS3 mechanics level game can't be optimised to run on Series S hardware at the fidelity it currently badly runs on the PS5 is insulting to console gamers. The Series S for all its faults is still a modern CPU, modern powerful GPU with gigabytes of RAM/VRAM and PC class SSD storage.

The middleware in 3rd party games is just wasting console hardware now. It feels like we are getting 2/3rds engine bloat and 1/3rd of console performance, especially when looking at end of gen exclusive stuff on PS4.
 
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diffusionx

Gold Member
Surely the obvious takeaway from this is: the game was made with UE5 for PC potato because the devs are middleware game developers, not console game developers? And where PC at an OS level or graphics driver level is designed to virtualise away inactive bloat, PS5 and Pro really do need console programmers to replace even the PS5 UE5 SDK bloat with a stripped down solution?

It is when we hear this so long after launch, it is clear certain game faceoffs should be done under the advisory note they are basically dirty PC ports by made by novice middleware game devs, and not to be used for inferring anything about console hardwares.

I'm not a fan of the Series S splitting the hardware gen, but the idea that this PS3 mechanics level game can't be optimised to run on Series S hardware at the fidelity it currently badly runs on the PS5 is insulting to console gamers. The Series S for all its faults is still a modern CPU, modern powerful GPU with gigabytes of RAM/VRAM and PC class SSD storage.

The middleware in 3rd party games is just wasting console hardware now. It feels like we are getting 2/3rds engine bloat and 1/3rd of console performance, especially when looking at end of gen exclusive stuff on PS4.
that's UE5 for you.

Remember the unveiling of it, they said it ran on a PS5, and the demo was running at 1440p at 30fps. Microsoft went around in the beginning claiming the Series X was a 4K machine and the Series S was a 1440p machine. So if UE5 PS5 demo made by the actual engine developers using its features was a 1440p 30fps game, what hope does the Series S have?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Is that series s? Yeah I remember everyone saying that within 3 to 4 years xbox will suffer due to series s and here we are. You were all right.

Exactly!

As much as I want to be part of the ‘haha, fuck you series s’ bandwagon, I gotta go with the devil’s advocates here. The game runs like shit even on the best hardware

And yet, it still sold millions of copies and gamers all around the world like the game. Microsoft made a mistake with the Series S and we tried to tell yall.
 

jm89

Member
Looks like exclusivity period is over and dev is looking at porting the game. But has realised they will need to actually optimise if they wanna get it running.
They realised months ago they needed to optimise.
"We are currently optimizing the Xbox Series X|S version to meet our quality standards, so it won't release simultaneously with the other platforms. We apologize for the delay and aim to minimize the wait for Xbox users. We will announce the release date as soon as it meets our quality standards."
Why did they realise this? Because they where working on a port months ago. Made up exlcusivity deal wasn't stopping them.
 
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Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
Has this problem appeared with any other Series S game or is it just Wukong?


Quarterbacks who play for the JETS suck while on the team but seem to have been good before and after, I don't blame the QB, I blame the team. (that doesn't make any sense but you get what I mean) The hardware doesn't appear to be the issue but that's why I am asking the question about other games.
 

LordCBH

Member
Has this problem appeared with any other Series S game or is it just Wukong?


Quarterbacks who play for the JETS suck while on the team but seem to have been good before and after, I don't blame the QB, I blame the team. (that doesn't make any sense but you get what I mean) The hardware doesn't appear to be the issue but that's why I am asking the question about other games.

Balder’s Gate 3.
 

Wolzard

Member
We don't need to extrapolate from the PS4. We already know that the PS5 has 2.5GB of memory dedicated to the OS.
The rest is shared by the CPU and the CPU and can be accessed by each at any time, just by mapping addresses.
If the Series S/X use a similar amount, that leaves 3.5GB on the slowest pool. But the thing is, if the CPU and GPU parts have different memory channels, then it will require data transfers between pools, making it less efficient.
But if the CPU and GPU have the same memory controller, with access to all the memory channels, then devs should use the slower memory pool as a sort of caching pool.

Read the console documentation. Data from the GPU always goes through the fastest bandwidth, the OS prioritizes this. Only the CPU uses the slower bus by default. The GPU can use the slower bus if necessary, but it is very unlikely, because as I said, the CPU will always use memory space and given the content of games nowadays, it is not a low value. It would need to be a tech demo running at 4k or more, without any interaction in the environment.

bt7qy9sfdtd51.png


Data is read from all chips simultaneously in parallel, by 56Gb/s from each memory chip.
If data is read from all 10 chips (red area in diagram), total speed is 56 Х 10 = 560Gb/s.
If data is read only from 6 chips (yellow area) total speed is 56 Х 6 = 336 Gb/s.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Read the console documentation. Data from the GPU always goes through the fastest bandwidth, the OS prioritizes this. Only the CPU uses the slower bus by default. The GPU can use the slower bus if necessary, but it is very unlikely, because as I said, the CPU will always use memory space and given the content of games nowadays, it is not a low value. It would need to be a tech demo running at 4k or more, without any interaction in the environment.

bt7qy9sfdtd51.png


Data is read from all chips simultaneously in parallel, by 56Gb/s from each memory chip.
If data is read from all 10 chips (red area in diagram), total speed is 56 Х 10 = 560Gb/s.
If data is read only from 6 chips (yellow area) total speed is 56 Х 6 = 336 Gb/s.

That means that the slower memory pool not only has lower memory bandwidth, but if also has to deal with contention between CPU and GPU, that further reduce the available bandwidth.
 

Wolzard

Member
That means that the slower memory pool not only has lower memory bandwidth, but if also has to deal with contention between CPU and GPU, that further reduce the available bandwidth.

Man, how difficult for you to understand. Nobody needs to deal with anything, the OS is the one who does it. The solution is actually quite interesting, as it provides more bandwidth for those who need it most, in this case, the GPU. On PS5, the CPU probably "wastes" this bandwidth, although this makes no difference in practice.

If you don't know how an operating system works, you will always stick to these theories that don't make sense.
 

LordCBH

Member
Thank You.

Bulder's Gate 3 plays "fine" on Series S. Bit blurry for sure and some dropped frames here and there but not at all unplayable. Maybe I just don't get it anymore bull all this seems like horseshit.

Series S version also doesn’t have the split screen mode. Microsoft had to drop their feature parity thing between the X and S for BG3 to launch.
 
The developer might be telling the truth and he might not be.

What we do know is it was announced as a multiplatform game, before suddenly becoming a Sony/PC exclusive.

Naturally in this industry that indicates a deal was cut between Sony and the developer, since the Xbox version just vanished. Gamers were claiming Sony was helping fund the game’s development, so it was their game.

Now we’re told the Xbox version was seemingly always on the table, but has no release because the developer of one of the best looking modern releases couldn’t figure out how to get the game working on Xbox?

Naturally the opinions of whose version of things is the truth will depend on what console that person favors.
Here's what I know.

- Specs for the Series S are released and devs all over the industry complained about the RAM. Including devs from ID software.
- Larian has issues with BG3 and coop because of split screen and it gets delayed on Xbox feature is removed. Xbox also abandons split screen in other games suddenly claiming it's because of user behavior.
- Now a new dev claims they are having issues with the Series S and coincidently it happens at the same time that Sony starts initiating secret exclusive deals that they've never done before.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Man, how difficult for you to understand. Nobody needs to deal with anything, the OS is the one who does it. The solution is actually quite interesting, as it provides more bandwidth for those who need it most, in this case, the GPU. On PS5, the CPU probably "wastes" this bandwidth, although this makes no difference in practice.

If you don't know how an operating system works, you will always stick to these theories that don't make sense.

What you described was the standard disposition of memory channels in a 32 bit data path.
The OS might reserve some data for itself, just like with other consoles do. But games have to manage what goes into the rest of the memory pool.

The thing you don't understand, is that having a CPU and GPU access the same pool, will reduce the effective memory bandwidth.
So here is a diagram from the PS4 presentation, that exemplifies how data contention can further reduce available memory bandwidth.

WiFOadz.png
 

Wolzard

Member
What you described was the standard disposition of memory channels in a 32 bit data path.
The OS might reserve some data for itself, just like with other consoles do. But games have to manage what goes into the rest of the memory pool.

The thing you don't understand, is that having a CPU and GPU access the same pool, will reduce the effective memory bandwidth.
So here is a diagram from the PS4 presentation, that exemplifies how data contention can further reduce available memory bandwidth.

WiFOadz.png

In your diagram, CPU and GPU are competing for the same buses.

Again, the XSX's GPU will always use the faster bus. It does not compete with the CPU, the OS prioritizes this bus for it. It's as if the GPU had its own memory, just like on a PC.

The CPU will always use the slower bus by default. In theory, it's as if the SoC diagram was something like the PC, but with the advantages of unified memory. This was likely done as a way to unify the PC and console SDKs, which is what they later did.

If both need to use other portion of the memory, then you will have a situation in which both will compete for bandwidth, but this is probably a more sporadic situation.
 

winjer

Gold Member
In your diagram, CPU and GPU are competing for the same buses.

Again, the XSX's GPU will always use the faster bus. It does not compete with the CPU, the OS prioritizes this bus for it. It's as if the GPU had its own memory, just like on a PC.

The CPU will always use the slower bus by default. In theory, it's as if the SoC diagram was something like the PC, but with the advantages of unified memory. This was likely done as a way to unify the PC and console SDKs, which is what they later did.

If both need to use other portion of the memory, then you will have a situation in which both will compete for bandwidth, but this is probably a more sporadic situation.

I'm talking about the slower pool.
And even on PC, it's the game that manages memory allocation between the 2 pools.
It's the game that tells the API and the OS what to store and where.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yes, xbox version disappearing is sus.

Looks like exclusivity period is over and dev is looking at porting the game. But has realised they will need to actually optimise if they wanna get it running.

I think they should take on the task for their team’s expertise sake.

Their future games will run better on variety of hardware.

Did it disappear? The Wukong dev team has said on multiple occasions why there isn't an Xbox version. Yall just keep calling them liars for some reason.
 

BlackTron

Member
The statements by MS - who’d sign these off now? I’m assuming it would be Sarah Bond.

Whatever you want to say about Phil, he could speak in double-speak and politician-speak and was economical with the truth, but I can’t recall him ever deliberately outright lying about an external partner like this.
In this case I believe it was %100 Sarah Bond, she's the one who would be internally blamed for that, and I think she had some pissy comment about the exclusion too.
You know it's a good day when another Microslop smear campaign gets exposed.

Phil just wasn't doing his job well enough and needed help adjusting to MS company culture. Sure Phil would send out brand ambassadors and influencers to spin and stretch the truth on his behalf, but with their slogging reputation they really needed a more hands-on exec.
 

Hudo

Gold Member
I've read that the game, perhaps unsurprisingly, runs like ass, even on powerful PCs. So it's not too far out there that the devs are just shit at optimization.
 
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