Oh, but that's not RT. Compute GI, right?
Xbox architect on ray tracing: 'developers still want to use traditional rendering techniques without a performance penalty'
- Thread starter Agnostic2020
- Start date
Mister Wolf
Member
Lumen is combining Voxel GI, Signed Distance Field GI, and Screen Space GI. All three of those things have already been readily available to developers. They just wont use them because its cheaper to bake lighting.
Some CryEngine games on PC use Voxel GI but not the console versions
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Die Namek Ability
Member
This will definitely be the case for both PS5 and XSX. Full raytracing is just too demanding for the graphic fidelity we expect out of the next generation. No sane stuido will accept the sacrifices to implement this. Now partial raytracing seems completely within reason. Im most excited for the combo of these new badass audio chips in both consoles combined with audio raytracing!!
Knitted Knight
Banned
Looks to me like all of Sony's first party studios and majority of big hitters are on the Ray tracing train. Pretty much the showcase of what true next-gen will look like will be PS5 exclusives like Spider-man Miles Morales, Ratchet and Clarnk: Rift Apart, Horizon II Forbidden West and Demon Souls....
Third parties would naturally lag hard by supporting cross gen hardware and simply having horrible engines in need of upgrades but that's how these things go.
Third parties would naturally lag hard by supporting cross gen hardware and simply having horrible engines in need of upgrades but that's how these things go.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
A year or two ago most people didn't expect raytracing to be in next-gen consoles at all. This lightweight RT is okay for now. Go all-in next-gen (2027).
eastwood333
Banned
No. The arguement is that XSX is more capable of doing Ray Tracing. And that remains the case.
eastwood333
Banned
Significantly more CU's buddy. 1.8 TF gpu advantage320 giga rays vs 380 giga rays. 15% difference . Yea MUCH MORE lol
Portugeezer
Member
I get it, developers are used to "cheating" when it comes to lighting and games have constantly gotten more photorealistic. Now RT is knocking at the door for consoles, offering even more realism in lighting but it comes with a big performance hit in comparison to the traditional "cheats" (which will also keep in improving). It's not always very noticeable too.
Yeah we're seeing a lot of this, even DF doesn't know sometimes. Just shows it's not always so impressive in every game.
Yeah we're seeing a lot of this, even DF doesn't know sometimes. Just shows it's not always so impressive in every game.
Portugeezer
Member
This is going to be a 10 year generation. Buckle up.
VFXVeteran
Banned
None of the games you mentioned have announced support for ray-tracing except MM. And even that was a cutscene or photomode shot. R&C didn't show any RT. Neither did HFW or DS.
We'll get more ray-tracing from 3rd parties than first parties simply because there are more 3rd party companies out there.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
DF was quite convinced R&C was using raytracing and I recall they specifically stated that Clank was raytraced.
I'm not an expert so what do I know, maybe it was a different technique and DF mistook it for raytracing.
MasterCornholio
Member
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JTCx
Member
longdi
Banned
But not as good as Nvidia marbles demo.
RTX is the wow future.
But too bad their new 3000 series GPU are still expensive AF. I just heard the 3090 is expected to be $1.8K. lol
Vroadstar
Member
Cmon now Alex
The self-aggrandizing expert burned again......and again...
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BluRayHiDef
Banned
Omnipunctual Godot
Member
Yeah, but we've only had one generation of cards designed with ray tracing in mind, and Turing debuted nearly two years ago -- a lot has changed. Plus, AMD's Big Navi will almost certainly be cheaper than the Turing cards were when they debuted. It's kind of like VR. Very niche and expensive when it first started, but it's becoming less so as time goes on.
Lethal01
Member
What are you talking about?
Raytracing was confirmed for Demon Souls on the official playstation blog, insominiac have stated on numerous occasions that Ratchet and Clank uses ray tracing.
JTCx
Member
Can't believe these bottom of the barrel tier game devs with such low standards managed to fool this master vfx auteurThe self-aggrandizing expert burned again......and again...
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Codeblew
Member
Where have we see any RT that is impressive from MS?
Knitted Knight
Banned
Didn't realize I got quoted. Guess the job is done.
But just on Demon Souls since Ratchet was such a low hanging fruit: https://blog.playstation.com/2020/06/11/playstation-studios-first-look-at-9-new-ps5-games/#nnn
But just on Demon Souls since Ratchet was such a low hanging fruit: https://blog.playstation.com/2020/06/11/playstation-studios-first-look-at-9-new-ps5-games/#nnn
Shmunter
Member
I'm not happy about Sony ticking tech boxes for the likes of VFXVet that judges the quality of the visuals based on how much tech goes into it, not that actual quality of application.
For most of us, it's the end result, not how the sausage is made. I'm going to be majorly pissed if we're running 30fps because we have more accurate reflection when fake at 60 would be a better result on balance.
Who's with me?
For most of us, it's the end result, not how the sausage is made. I'm going to be majorly pissed if we're running 30fps because we have more accurate reflection when fake at 60 would be a better result on balance.
Who's with me?
MrFunSocks
Banned
In other news, the sky is blue.
RT is expensive. It's probably the single most expensive effect in games if I'm not mistaken.
RT is expensive. It's probably the single most expensive effect in games if I'm not mistaken.
Lethal01
Member
I prefer we get raytraced reflection, current methods are extremely bad and very noticeable.
Shadows also look pretty rash this Gen, this issue may not require Raytracing to fix as much but right now games with RT shadows look 10x better.
I can settle for Unreal Engine 5 level GI though.
60 fps can wait until games don't look so noticeable and unignorably fake.
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MastaKiiLA
Member
30fps is fine for the majority of games. 60fps is only really necessary for games that need precision or move fast. I'd rather get additional visual splendor at 30fps than stripped-down visuals at 60fps. It's more about stability at 30fps. With stable framerates, it looks perfectly fine. We're still 2-3 generations away from 60fps as a standard, unless you're talking about VR, and there 120fps is probably preferred.
hyperbertha
Member
Do people really care about raytraced reflections? For raytracing to have real visual benefits you need full global illumination, and I highly doubt we'll see that on consoles consistently. Better off with screenspace reflections.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
ray tracing scales with clocks. but nice try.
CrysisFreak
Banned
But aren't the RT cores on RTX separate in the sense that they don't influence traditional rasterisation except if they, well, bottleneck the framerate with their own performance or lack thereof.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
I don't know why people are saying it's a troll thread, it's pretty obvious this is applicable to both consoles. It's good to hear it straight from an MS architect, just like it was implied by Cerny in his talk.
I look forward to seeing how ray tracing is applied in the coming years and the techniques Devs use to apply it.
Soon the rubber will finally hit the road on these boxes, and we will see that developer skill and design artstyle are probably as our more important than specs alone.
I look forward to seeing how ray tracing is applied in the coming years and the techniques Devs use to apply it.
Soon the rubber will finally hit the road on these boxes, and we will see that developer skill and design artstyle are probably as our more important than specs alone.
martino
Member
Kenpachii
Member
Fake RT.
Shmunter
Member
Hope people notice that RT is still not the perfect solution. Effects like particles do not reflect due to their seperate rendering nature. Screen space while only working with what's on screen may actually provide more convincing reflections in certain situations.
Again, it's not what you use, it's how you use it.
Again, it's not what you use, it's how you use it.
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Shmunter
Member
Precisely, it's all an illusion. Effects and how convincing they are is a game of smoke and mirrors.
Physiognomonics
Member
We have already seen big games on PS5 using RT. As usual the most important will be the APIs and how easy it will be for devs to use the new feature in their games. And Sony seem to have the advantage here.
I mean Microsoft are still using Nvidia 2080ti to show off their upcoming games and those don't even have RT enabled. It's sad how unprepared they are.
Guys just ignore
VFXVeteran
about anything Sony related. He is in full denial about PS5 games having RT while running at native 4K both at 30fps and 60fps.
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FeiRR
Banned
This so much. Next gen needs better AI and physics more than better graphics. It's sad that the most popular FPS game (COD) doesn't even have correct line-of-sight mechanics.
GymWolf
Member
Don't kid yourself, these console are not remotely enough powerfull to have great rtx, 4k, 60 frame and a big generational jump in raw graphics.
No matter how much optimization devs can use, real noticeable rtx is a resource hog and you can have great lights and shadows even without this technology with much less impact on performance, it's gonna be forgot in a couple of years if they really want to push next gen graphics with decent framerate/resolutions.
Maybe on ps5 pro and sex X refreshes in 3-4 years.
I don't need to hear vfx veteran, it's simple logic, rtx are not free and no magic from devs can reduce their performance requirements, if you want to render light in real time there is not trick this time.
That illumination thing in the UE5 engine trailer looked mighty good while being lighter, i bet people is gonna use that instead (even if it's another form of rtx)
if console can get something that perform like dlss 2.0 on pc then we can discuss again because 4k is not gonna be a problem anymore.
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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
It's hard to notice when ray tracing is on for some people, let alone an 18% difference!
There will be zero noticeable difference in ray tracing with the small raw gap (assuming PS5 doesn't have more custom, performant solution to RT, we don't know yet actually).
Sinthor
Gold Member
You aren't being serious, right? R&C was DEFINITELY using ray tracing. If you can't pick it out with your eyes, watch DF videos on it. Definitely is. So was Stray. There were others, that's just off the top of my head at the moment. It all caused quite a stir because a lot of us, me in particular, didn't expect to see much if ANY ray tracing this generation. I know it's not FULL RT, but seeing it even to this degree (oh, including GT7, BTW), was way more than I had expected for sure. We'll see but I'm pretty sure that Demon Souls was talked about with RT as well. We'll seen when these games are released of course..
Phrixotrichus
Banned
MS knows full well, that their 4TF Lockhart Crapbox won`t even be able to do 1080/30 with RT enabled for anything more demanding than tetris. We can see how a card like the 2060 with 6,5TF struggles with this on PC already.
So better try downplaying features before people actually want them....
So better try downplaying features before people actually want them....
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B_Boss
Member
Right on the money
. In film, games and animation, if I can create a trick to get my audience to truly believe that I'm using real-time reflections, etc, you bet your ass it will be used over the more costly (financial, technical or otherwise) alternative. It's about the "illusion of life" but time is money among other things. Shortcuts, illusions, etc., are key. When it comes to the creative and visual arts or storytelling, if it looks "cool" then you're half done.The console game development space....it is also filled with fascinating and awe inspiring stories of how limitations really pushed those devs to truly think outside the box. Reading the story of how the employee at Rare figured out ways to really push the SNES to deliver the beautiful rendered graphics.
Lethal01
Member
Full RTX isn't free ofcourse butsome devs have reported some effects like ray traced ambient occlusion and using it to enhance existing shadow techniques can actually be cheaper or a small cost for much better results.
Even if those devs were mistaken or speaking of a specific case. I think it's silly to think that Ray tracing is gonna stopped being used in the future, if anything it's gonna be used more but just less advertised since it will just be "well yeah ofcourse we used raytracing for the mirror in that level". I think you'l just see it used more precisely.
you could maybe used a raytrace shadow for some specific objects that keep looking obviously bad with traditional methods or you could only apply RT Reflections to you're giant robot boss. Think of it like how subsureface scattering for translucent objects is more expensive than shading something like concrete. People didn't stop doing subsurface scattering cause it was expensive. They use it in extremely small amounts but doing so vastly improves the look of characters. You can get Huge benefits from RT without using it for everything.
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polybius80
Member
noticed the same in spiderman image when DOF wasnt present equally in the reflection as in the rest of the image
a quick idea is to use SSR for certain details and mix with RT I think storing the position and area of the details not reflected in RT in a cheap 1-bit mask texture, we keep the previous frame like in SSR(probably they will do it anyway for other things) and use the mask to specify things to be reflected from previous frame in SSR shader on top of the RT reflection, in theory should resolve the problem with particles while keeping the nice RT reflections but particles will dissapear when there is no data from previous frame just like SSR, but I dont know how expensive can be compared to just use a stronger RT I guess its a cheap approach but maybe someone knows more of the impact of RT and SSR I dont have experience in implementing or performance in both techniques
another is trigger RT only in certain angles and use SSR only in angles it favor or even interchange what objects each use based on statistics but may cause framerate inconsistency I think if RT is too expensive but dont know how expensive that may be compared to simply more RT
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