Xbox architect on ray tracing: 'developers still want to use traditional rendering techniques without a performance penalty'
- Thread starter Agnostic2020
- Start date
Azurro
Banned
Sure thing, "graphics expert", you can't even spot the shit you are supposed to work on. You should probably learn how to parse an CSV file first before posting again.
Expert my ass.
Lethal01
Member
The point is that those games have ray tracing in the PS5 version. So they are evidence of PS% having ray traced games.
Vroadstar
Member
Let me find that link.
Ubisoft confirms Far Cry 6 4k output is only on Xbox One X and Xbox Series X
Ubisoft has confirmed that Far Cry 6 4K visuals will only be available on Xbox One X and Xbox Series X. Responding to a fan query on Twitter, Ubisoft Support revealed that the Ultra HD visuals will not be supported on Sony’s next-gen PlayStation 5. Twitter user Christian Vuik asked the developer...mspoweruser.com
Alex, bruh
Far Cry 6 Confirms 4K Support for PS5, PS4 Pro
Ubisoft confirms that Far Cry 6 will be playable in 4K on PlayStation consoles as well as Xbox and next generation hardware.gamerant.com
polybius80
Member
PC is not a fixed platform if they implement all RT features doesnt mean much as there will be PCs that will support them its a way to future proof a bit your game(like ubersampling in witcher 2), I think they mentioned they prefer PC or somethings like that but that does nothing for your argument, PC gamers were angry at them for the witcher 3 downgrade maybe they dont want to repeat that mistake
giving people option to run full RT on a system that can scale has little to do with fixed systems like consoles I think you are doing mental gymnastics to try to use this to support your argument, CDP is not precisely a studio that favor sony systems I dont think they will give PS5 support over XBSX just like this gen their support for PS4 port of the witcher 3 was very slow compared to Xbone as a result the games were almost identical even a bit better in certain aspects in Xbone for a while I think it changed in latter patches, I think DF prefered the xbone version back then but I am not sure, and the difference between PS4 and Xbone is much more large not only in flops but also the memory configuration of Xbone that caused problems with resolution in many games, the difference this gen is nothing in comparison if anything it proves that with developer support(or lack of it) a weaker system can even have a better port
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JTCx
Member
VFXVeteran
Banned
The tag has nothing to do with anything other than I know my job and I know people in the industry. Period. You are too wrapped up in the title. It won't change anything. I will still make the comments I make and people will still troll me regardless.
If I was a mod of this forum, of course I would be treated with much more respect because people would fear me banning them. So that's not a good comparison.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
I don't remember that. And I never kept up with the threads. From now on I'll keep my mouth shut about all rumors and articles because I can't keep up and I'm a very busy person. However, I will speak up about what I know about graphics. So there's that..
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
OMG!
This thread has been fun as fuck!
I am dying here. Dying!
Someone might be an expert at offline rendering technologies but not be an expert with realtime technologies.
Its allowed, while they are two sides of the same coin it is very possible to know a whole bunch about one side, but very little about the other.
No fault there, just dont talk about things you dont know with the gusto of a supposed Industry Professional because people might take your statements as scripture.
jonnyp
Member
Let me find that link.
Ubisoft confirms Far Cry 6 4k output is only on Xbox One X and Xbox Series X
Ubisoft has confirmed that Far Cry 6 4K visuals will only be available on Xbox One X and Xbox Series X. Responding to a fan query on Twitter, Ubisoft Support revealed that the Ultra HD visuals will not be supported on Sony’s next-gen PlayStation 5. Twitter user Christian Vuik asked the developer...mspoweruser.com
VFXVeteran
Banned
I've been in realtime tech for 3yrs now..
And that has nothing to do with me goofing on being informed about the rebuttals on an article of FC6 and not doing my homework on keeping up with PS5 exclusives..
But spin it how you want..
Agnostic2020
Member
Stop talking about ps5 games when u don't know anything. That would help.its like a joke now. u got already called out enough for ur lack of knowledge earlier lol . Stop being disingenuous.
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Im not spinning anything.
Youve claimed to be graphic tech for many years, but most of your experience was with offline rendering.
Maybe you shouldnt spit your resume when talkng about realtime rendering techniques you arent the most knowledgeable about, because others reading your statements (most of your posts come off as statements of fact) would think: "hey this industry vet says "XYZ" he theoretically knows what hes talking about so "XYZ" must be true".
Which is effectively spreading misinformation.
If you want people not to read too much into your posts, asks the mods to get rid of your tag so people dont see it as a badge of authority on the subject of graphics.
Which whether intentional or not, it is seen as such.
VFXVeteran
Banned
My offline rendering experience and my experience now with realtime rendering are hardly a huge disparity. People who are graphics programmers would know that. I just finished having a conversation the other day with a developer from Rockstar Games. Senior Graphics programmer and talked to him about his realtime path tracing and giving him a heads up on implementing the GGX anisotropic algorithm for specular lighting. He's working on what I worked on years ago in film. It's all the same. Sorry to disappoint people. So stop trying to give yourself leverage against me to say I don't know anything about graphics technology just because I thought that there was only 1 game out that showed RT on the PS5. One has NOTHING to do with the other.
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eastwood333
Banned
Triggered much? He's been vetted. He's been called out by other "armchair sony fanboys" struggling to come to grips with PS5 being the weaker next gen console is not saying much. Even sony knows this and is why they aren't screaming to the rooftops that PS5 is the most powerful next gen console like MS is doing. Instead, they're hyping SSD, controller,audio features.
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eastwood333
Banned
The more powerful system being able to do Ray Tracing better is now considered BS? Yes, i'll gladly take you up on that. Lets wait for all the DF head to head analysis where XSX comes out on top in resolution, framerates, and ray tracing etc... only then to have butthurt sony fanboys bash DF for being MS chills. Then it'll be "NXGamer" is the only reliable one. But even NXGamer will come to the same conclusions that the most powerful next gen console plays multiplats the best.
Not hard predicting this one.
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Agnostic2020
Member
He has been called out enough and admitted he doesn't follow the news on ps5. No need for ur green warrior defense bud
NoMoChokeSJ
Banned
Yeah but is it really necessary for the 3 page dog pile that happens when he's wrong about something? And once again it is a PS defender dogpile in another xbox related thread. If the usual suspect didn't into every xbox thread to post Craig memes, or tell us how awesome the PS5 is in a completely unrelated way, a good portion of these conflicts wouldn't even occur.He has been called out enough and admitted he doesn't follow the news on ps5. No need for ur green warrior defense bud
Dolomite
Member
PS5 is absolutely capable of RT. Anyone questioning that this close to launch hasn't been paying attention. The difference is Software based RT/Shader based calcs vs dedicated RT cores that can run in parallel without as much help. One obviously on paper is better, but it's up to the talented devs to show which can shine and why
geordiemp
Member
So we know that its likely ps5 will be using a simple compress in vertex shaders giving less bottlenecks and faster utilisation throughput to pixel shaders where it is uncompressed from that patent.
This is likely to partly assist in Ray tracing efficiency as well if its laid out in RDNA2 the same way ? Discuss.
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To be transparant, we don't know if PS5 has no dedicated hardware ... just saying . Could also have dedicated cores.
Dolomite
Member
I got bad news for you champ...
geordiemp
Member
So do you know if ps5 is compressing the shader vertices to the RT portion ?
Dolomite
Member
I know that what ifs and mental gymnastics come off as desperate. I know that soon enough Sony will have to do another deep dive and we'll have our answers.
geordiemp
Member
Desparate by who ? And what Mental gymnasics ?
You think Ps5 wont have implimented the patents developed for console in ps5 ?
Interesting.
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Data Ghost
Member
I think the use of Ray Tracing in the next gen consoles has been overstated as others have said. It will be used selectively here and there.
Also, and I think I am going to be in the minority here, but I don't think Ray Tracing is as great as everyone makes it out to be. Certainly not when you consider the amount of resources needed to implement it.
Also, and I think I am going to be in the minority here, but I don't think Ray Tracing is as great as everyone makes it out to be. Certainly not when you consider the amount of resources needed to implement it.
VFXVeteran
Banned
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Well, I'm not sure that patent was for hardware. But let's assume it doesn't matter.
This compression will absolutely improve bandwidth. But does it improve computation? I don't see it. Let's say we pass in all the triangles in that UE5 demo and they are all compressed and then passed on to the pixel shaders. The slowdown is in running the pixel shaders. The lighting equation and the uber shader is going to be heavy. When I visited Microsoft sometime in 2017 for their HoloLens project, they was using Unity shaders. And they had to remove shader code from their uber shader that wasn't being used because, for some reason, downloading ALL the shader code to the GPU choked the FPS. I can imagine if all of it was being used in a scenario. This is the reason for the "optimizing shaders" screen we get in HZD on the PC. They are compiling an uber shader based on settings in the driver and elsewhere to minimize shader code execution.
In short, games have been shader bound for quite some time. This is the reason that Nvidia/AMD keeps increasing their shader cores each generation. There simply isn't enough bandwidth/computation power. This process will be exacerbated by using ray-tracing.
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geordiemp
Member
I dont know if its hardware or software either. But I doubt its using CPU thats for sure. Here is the bit about what the compression overcomes to make sure no slowdown in rendering with what ps5 has avaialble to it.
Might also help them hit the higher frequencies...
VFXVeteran
Banned
I dont know if its hardware or software either. But I doubt its using CPU thats for sure. Here is the bit about what the compression overcomes to make sure no slowdown in rendering with what ps5 has avaialble to it.
Might also help them hit the higher frequencies...
Virtual objects means triangle setup code. For example, I need the area of a triangle so doing a cross product of two triangle vectors and then taking the length of that cross product to determine triangle area. Very useful for anti-aliasing procedural noise and overall any world space computation which could use the area without storing that area in a vertex structure. That would be considered a virtual object (i.e. the invisible triangle in memory that we are doing the computation on).
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Night.Ninja
Banned
This needs to be the official gif someone make it happen
TBiddy
Member
Use the report button. It's fucking annoying that the usual suspects have a need to destroy every single xbox thread. Must be some serious insecurities at play.
alabtrosMyster
Member
Ubi finally made a far cry game that looks like areal upgrade from far cry 3!
Bo_Hazem
Banned
You mean FC2? I've been playing every single one, FC2 still the best, but they all still feel the same since FC2 (could be FC1 as well).
Wait a second, are you saying a feature that a graphic card company pushed to sell super expensive cards and make other gamer's that can't afford it feel really left out, is a mostly fluff feature or an idea that is good in theory but needs a high level of refinement to be realistic with realistic specs, probably a refinement that won't come from said company because that would mean less money for them... this almost sounds like a marketing ploy.
alabtrosMyster
Member
3 is the first one I played start to finish (the bad guy is just amazing, too bad he dies halfway through), 4 looked like a mod for it, but I still finished it... by the time 5 came around I was bored, and they all looked like #3 anyway.
These new screenshots at least make the game look amazing! I hope they made the open world structure less transparent.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I'm a fan of FC mainly because of FC2, and I agree with you. The game went childish after FC3, went downhill from there to me. FC2 was so hardcore and meaningful. Vaas is probably the best villain of all time, I like Michael Mando, he doesn't get the roles he deserves. I think his temper doesn't help him as well, the man is a fucking philosopher.
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Edit: found the related patent here
U.S. Patent for Scheme for compressing vertex shader output parameters Patent (Patent # 10,740,867 issued August 11, 2020) - Justia Patents Search
A graphics processing may include implementing a vertex shader and a pixel shader with a GPU. Vertex parameter values may be compressed with the vertex shader and compressed vertex parameter values may be written to a cache. The pixel shader may access the compressed vertex parameter values that...
patents.justia.com
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Isn't geometry made of triangles? I gave some example. Not that it's exactly what I said it is. Also, part of the mapping has to be in memory otherwise there is no way to get to it. I wouldn't say it's completely absent from memory but I get your point.
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NullZ3r0
Banned
This is no different from any game, PC or otherwise.Mark Grossman, principal architect at Microsoft, has detailed the graphics silicon inside the Series X and just what role ray tracing has in it.
The short answer seems to be: not much.
while Microsoft has indeed worked with AMD to ensure there is some level of ray tracing support inside the Xbox Series X GPU, Grossman doesn't seem to be that enthused about how readily it will be utilised.
"We do support DirectX Raytracing acceleration, for the ultimate in realism™, but in this generation developers still want to use traditional rendering techniques, developed over decades, without a performance penalty," says Grossman sadly. "They can apply ray tracing selectively, where materials and environments demand, so we wanted a good balance of die resources dedicated to the two techniques."
Xbox architect on ray tracing: 'developers still want to use traditional rendering techniques without a performance penalty'
The Xbox Series X still has dedicated ray tracing hardware anyways...www.pcgamer.com
I mean it was kind of given raytracing will be limited in these machine.
As long as we get some RT refelction and global illumination we should be good .
Yeah it still can reside in it. I found related patent on the compression which explains their definition of it better and edited it in to my original post for anyone interested.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Link? I'm interested.
In the original post you replied to. It's from 2018.
NullZ3r0
Banned
Stop with this bullshit. This is not true.
NullZ3r0
Banned
PS5 has variable clocks so you need an asterisk.The formula is given by MS and amd. We don't need to speculate.
4x cu x clock MHZ
Xsx 380 gigarays
Ps5 321 gigarays
15% buddy. Its OK .u wanted 100% like u were saying before but it didn't happen .maybe ps6 and next gen xbox u get ur wish ?lets hope so
martino
Member
this patent was firstly published in 2014 https://patents.google.com/patent/US10102603B2/en
I wouldn't bet render pipeline talking about vertex shader are the future (at least on pc/xbox)
I wouldn't bet render pipeline talking about vertex shader are the future (at least on pc/xbox)
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polybius80
Member
have you seen games presented in both machines?
if the PS5 doesn't have RT acceleration then is must be like 2+ times more powerful than xbox series x to run those games with RT in pure shaders, dont you think?
MS added hardware to the CU to accelerate the intersection of rays(the most expensive part) and run the rest in the base hardware(shaders) I think you already know that since it was mentioned by the xbox architect but apparently you missed the PS5 architect when he mentioned something called "intersection engine" that you can guess what it do
Xbox architect on ray tracing: 'developers still want to use traditional rendering techniques without a performance penalty'
The Xbox Series X still has dedicated ray tracing hardware anyways...
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Dolomite
Member
have you seen games presented in both machines?
if the PS5 doesn't have RT acceleration then is must be like 2+ times more powerful than xbox series x to run those games with RT in pure shaders, dont you think?
MS added hardware to the CU to accelerate the intersection of rays(the most expensive part) and run the rest in the base hardware(shaders) I think you already know that since it was mentioned by the xbox architect but apparently you missed the PS5 architect when he mentioned something called "intersection engine" that you can guess what it do
Xbox architect on ray tracing: 'developers still want to use traditional rendering techniques without a performance penalty'
The Xbox Series X still has dedicated ray tracing hardware anyways...
So you're assuming? That's alot to just say you expect it does. Cool, I disagree
anothertech
Member
Wait I thought Minecraft was confirmed to have rt? That's their flagship right?