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[Steve Holt]

Yes. It is literally all Phil's fault. Even when he wasn't in charge of the Xbox business.

Ffs this place sometimes… . Major cringe.

What a weird statement. He has been head of Xbox since 2014.

Under his leadership it's been getting worse and worse, just have to look at those numbers. It's got to a point where no one believes anything he says anymore as there has been so many lies and flat out bullshit.

Shutting studios and cancelling games appears to be all he's doing right now.

 

[Steve Holt]

It's only fair to blame (or credit) the person who is literally in charge of a business.

Who else it put it on? I'm genuinely asking.

It's Sony's fault usually.

There's always an excuse to absolve Phil, when under his tenure the brand has got progressively less and less appealing. Backed up by the numbers.

 

[Clear]

37mil seems... generous.

I mean if you look at trade-in prices for a Series S in the Uk, the offer price is well under £100 now. Which frankly is insane for a console that's still being actively sold and supported. Its like £30 more than a PS4 !

 

[DragonNCM]

Hey CLOWNS !!!
37M * 400$ ( lets say it is even split among series S & X) = 14.800 Billion
Still it is respected number.

 

[Baemono]

When was the Series X ever at $349? Brand new? Show me the receipts. I was lucky to get an invite to buy one from Msoft in November 2021 back when they'd never even been on a store shelf yet due to supply chain disruption from Covid. And the only way to secure mine was to buy a bundle that forced me to get a second controller. Otherwise who knows how long it would've been til I'd have been able to find one. And they're already sold at a loss, anyway, but they discounted it $150 off?

When they saw Starfield didn't move units, they decided the console's last chance was to heavily cut the price of the console during holidays 2023. And it still came 3rd, so they pivoted to mulitplat

 

[Ar¢tos]

Probably stock clearance.
I remember when the biggest retailer here wanted to get rid of the PSTV they reduced the price a lot to try to get rid of them and people still weren't buying them!
They ended up bundling them with every Playstation console and controller for free just to get rid of the stock.

 

[Steve Holt]

Hey CLOWNS !!!
37M * 400$ ( lets say it is even split among series S & X) = 14.800 Billion
Still it is respected number.

Cool.

They lose money on every console, I think they still do IIRC. And the platform has built a reputation where none of the owners buy games for the system. So cant really use that money to compensate. Hence the third party publisher move.

 

[Cert.in.Death]

37m excuses for Phil Spencer to cling on to

 

[Heisenberg007]

Hey CLOWNS !!!
37M * 400$ ( lets say it is even split among series S & X) = 14.800 Billion
Still it is respected number.

37M* x $200 = $7,400,000,000 loss.

Very respected number.

 

[Xbox 360 slim]

Yes. It is literally all Phil's fault. Even when he wasn't in charge of the Xbox business.

Ffs this place sometimes… . Major cringe.

That guy is up there with most retarded fanboys on this site. Grown ass man too.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

What a weird statement. He has been head of Xbox since 2014.

Under his leadership it's been getting worse and worse, just have to look at those numbers. It's got to a point where no one believes anything he says anymore as there has been so many lies and flat out bullshit.

Shutting studios and cancelling games appears to be all he's doing right now.

I feel like 75% of the arguments and the confusion on this place is just someone not reading/knowing the context of the post they are quoting.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Wow. Guess I should've waited 2 more years. Dang

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

That guy is up there with most retarded fanboys on this site. Grown ass man too.

Super mature/ helpful

#WinningAtLife

 

[Xbox 360 slim]

Super mature/ helpful

#WinningAtLife

It's a video game message board. Not that deep.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

It's a video game message board. Not that deep.

Clearly!

 

[m14]

Exactly.

I also don't like the transparent partisanship. People love to hear negative Xbox news here and will tear down anything that remotely resembles good news on that "side" (although I'm not clear how 37 m. is good news, really.) I say that as a PS-only owner, not an Xbox fan. And I'm not claiming to be "above" that, either. I find stories about Xbox stepping on rakes very entertaining. But it seems to me that this is where most of the piling-on and assholery originates. If someone was allegedly overestimating PS5 sales, I doubt they would face a similar backlash. That sort of reaction is fine in the context of normal console warrior topics but seems misplaced here.

Don't you understand that they are merely "calling balls and strikes", just like their departed friend Mibu no ookami?

 

[Ar¢tos]

37M* x $200 = $7,400,000,000 loss.

Very respected number.

Imagine bragging of losing money!

 

[ShaiKhulud1989]

As a big fan of sales threads, that was a good one.

GHG respect.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

What a weird statement. He has been head of Xbox since 2014.

Under his leadership it's been getting worse and worse, just have to look at those numbers. It's got to a point where no one believes anything he says anymore as there has been so many lies and flat out bullshit.

Shutting studios and cancelling games appears to be all he's doing right now.

And before 2014, he was the general manager of Microsoft Studios.

 

[adamsapple]

37M* x $200 = $7,400,000,000 loss.

Very respected number.

I gotta imagine the numbers aren't the same now as they were in 2022.

 

[mayham2199]

I gotta imagine the numbers aren't the same now as they were in 2022.

Considering the price increase and tariffs I would think not.

 

[iHaunter]

Did that Jackass really put a fire Emoji for that?

 

[zapper]

Weren't they around 21 million according to xbox data 2 years ago, 25 according to amd and t2 a few months ago? How would they have reached almost 37 million units if sales have collapsed as seen in the reports from circana, gi and famitsu?

 

[BouncyFrag]

*holds his XSS close*

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Imagine bragging of losing money!

Sony and Microsoft both lose lots of money on hardware. They subsidize their hardware and sell it below cost, hoping to make it up on software, subscriptions and accessories. This is not an Xbox-specific thing. That's been the Playstation& Xbox business model for many, many years now.

The cherry-picking is/has been extremely old and tiring.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Sony and Microsoft both lose lots of money on hardware. They subsidize their hardware and sell it below cost, hoping to make it up on software, subscriptions and accessories. This is not an Xbox-specific thing. That's been the Playstation& Xbox business model for many, many years now.

The cherry-picking is/has been extremely old and tiring.

Sony hasn't sold the ps5 at a loss for some time now...

 

[FatallyYours]

Sony hasn't sold the ps5 at a loss for some time now...

Be careful, if you argue with him about xbox he starts to call you names

 

[adamsapple]

Considering the price increase and tariffs I would think not.

Possibly, but Nintendo is increasing the prices of NS1 right now and I can't imagine that shit is selling at a loss. Hell, Sony reportedly was selling PS5 at a profit for years, you can't imagine their manufacturing didn't get streamline/cheaper over time and yet they also increased the prices.

At a point I reckon these HW vendors like to keep a certain overhead intact over its base unit price.

 

[reinking]

Sony and Microsoft both lose lots of money on hardware. They subsidize their hardware and sell it below cost, hoping to make it up on software, subscriptions and accessories. This is not an Xbox-specific thing. That's been the Playstation& Xbox business model for many, many years now.

The cherry-picking is/has been extremely old and tiring.

two seconds of google... (AI summary)

No, the standard PlayStation 5 console (with a disc drive) is no longer sold at a loss. While it initially sold for less than the cost to produce it, that is no longer the case, according to The Verge. The cheaper, digital-only PS5 model may still be sold at a loss, but any losses are reportedly offset by other hardware sales and accessories, according to PCMag.

Yes, Xbox Series consoles (both Xbox Series X and Series S) are typically sold at a loss, a strategy known as a loss leader. Microsoft subsidizes the initial cost of the consoles with the expectation of recouping those losses through sales of games, accessories, and subscription services like Xbox Game Pass.

I agree, the cherry-picking is old and tiring. The fact is none of us will know the numbers of Xbox series consoles sold or how profitable Game Pass is without Microsoft providing those numbers in a clear manner. Everything else is guestimate and subject to bias/misinterpretation. I'm not expecting clarification from them until/unless they hit a major positive milestone.

 

[Steve Holt]

Sony and Microsoft both lose lots of money on hardware. They subsidize their hardware and sell it below cost, hoping to make it up on software, subscriptions and accessories. This is not an Xbox-specific thing. That's been the Playstation& Xbox business model for many, many years now.

The cherry-picking is/has been extremely old and tiring.

Research your arguments a bit more.

You are way off.

 

[PropellerEar]

Dr. Wilkinson & Xbox 360 slim
This is how you tag people

Spoiler: Sad pathetic circlejerk

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Btw we see that ps5pro is very bandwidth limited as its not as fast as it theoretically should be and has 576 gb/s. Ps6 with 160 bit bus will be 640 gb/s, only 11% more, so will be even more bandwidth limited.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Sony hasn't sold the ps5 at a loss for some time now...

It changes over the course of the cycle as it always does… none of this is new information.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

two seconds of google... (AI summary)

No, the standard PlayStation 5 console (with a disc drive) is no longer sold at a loss. While it initially sold for less than the cost to produce it, that is no longer the case, according to The Verge. The cheaper, digital-only PS5 model may still be sold at a loss, but any losses are reportedly offset by other hardware sales and accessories, according to PCMag.

Yes, Xbox Series consoles (both Xbox Series X and Series S) are typically sold at a loss, a strategy known as a loss leader. Microsoft subsidizes the initial cost of the consoles with the expectation of recouping those losses through sales of games, accessories, and subscription services like Xbox Game Pass.

I agree, the cherry-picking is old and tiring. The fact is none of us will know the numbers of Xbox series consoles sold or how profitable Game Pass is without Microsoft providing those numbers in a clear manner. Everything else is guestimate and subject to bias/misinterpretation. I'm not expecting clarification from them until/unless they hit a major positive milestone.

Thank you for accurately affirming my points.

As has always been the case, the cost to build and the financials of building and shipping a console can change quite a bit over an 8 year console cycle. Although nowadays with Covid inflation, supply struggles, and now tariffs, all three platform holders have been looking at pricing/ raising prices all over the world for the last 2+ years. Microsoft hasn't done this any more than either of the other two. Nintendo has raised prices twice just in the last 9 weeks. Sony has been quietly raising PS5 console and accessory pricing globally for a few years now and has never taken a console price increase in the US for PS5 off the table. In fact at this point, I would say to expect it.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Dr. Wilkinson & Xbox 360 slim
This is how you tag people

Spoiler: Sad pathetic circlejerk

I'm still holding out (rather hopelessly) for an actual point to be made. …Do you have one? I don't actually care, but maybe just for the sake of appearances?

 

[PropellerEar]

I'm still holding out (rather hopelessly) for an actual point to be made. …Do you have one? I don't actually care, but maybe just for the sake of appearances?

Point was obvious, grow a set.
Tag if you talk shit.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Thank you for accurately affirming my points.

As has always been the case, the cost to build and the financials of building and shipping a console can change quite a bit over an 8 year console cycle. Although nowadays with Covid inflation, supply struggles, and now tariffs, all three platform holders have been looking at pricing/ raising prices all over the world for the last 2+ years. Microsoft hasn't done this any more than either of the other two. Nintendo has raised prices twice just in the last 9 weeks. Sony has been quietly raising PS5 console and accessory pricing globally for a few years now and has never taken a console price increase in the US for PS5 off the table. In fact at this point, I would say to expect it.

Official prices are not the same as real prices.
You can easily find ps5 digital for 400$.
The dualsense edge officially costs 210 but you can find it for 180, the access controller costs 90 but stores sell it for 70, etc.

 

[TrippleA345]

As of June 2023, Microsoft has "officially" announced (I take that at face value) that Xbox has surpassed 21+ million units sold since its release in November 2020. Subtracting the approximately 1+ million units sold in the first quarter of 2023 leaves around 20 million units sold up to the end of Q4 2022. Removing the roughly 3 million units sold in 2020 results in about 17 million units sold during the combined period of 2021 and 2022, which averages to approximately 8.5 million units sold per year for both 2021 and 2022.
Xbox definitely declined by a double-digit percentage Year over Year (started with 2023), with 10% being the lowest estimate, which is unrealistically low.

Year / Period	Annual Sales (Million)	10% Decline (unrealistic, to low)	20% Decline	30% Decline (overestimated)
2020	3.00	3.00	3.00	3.00
2021	8.5	8.5	8.5	8.5
2022	8.5	8.5	8.5	8.0 (If 22 was a bit lower than 21)
Total end of 2022	—	20	20	19.50
Total end of Q1 2023 (assuming 21+ is from the end of Q1 2023)	—	21.50	21.50	—
Total as of June 1, 2023	—	—	—	21+ ( 21.1 )

2023	—	7.65	6.8	5.6
Total end of 2023	—	27.65	26.8	25.1
2024	—	6.88	5.44	3.92
Total end of 2024	—	34.53	32.24	29.02

If 2025 continues (which I doubt)

2025	—	6.2	4.35	2.74
Total end of 2025	—	40.73	36.59	31.76

At the end of Q3 2025, Xbox would be at ~37 million consoles sold if there had been only a 10% decline Year over Year. I find this extremely unrealistic.
I would say that by the end of Q4 2024, Xbox is definitely over 30 million. I'd guess it's on the lower end, somewhere ~32.5 million. That sounds realisitic. And 2025 is shaping up to be quite bad.

 

[Topher]

two seconds of google... (AI summary)

No, the standard PlayStation 5 console (with a disc drive) is no longer sold at a loss. While it initially sold for less than the cost to produce it, that is no longer the case, according to The Verge. The cheaper, digital-only PS5 model may still be sold at a loss, but any losses are reportedly offset by other hardware sales and accessories, according to PCMag.

Yes, Xbox Series consoles (both Xbox Series X and Series S) are typically sold at a loss, a strategy known as a loss leader. Microsoft subsidizes the initial cost of the consoles with the expectation of recouping those losses through sales of games, accessories, and subscription services like Xbox Game Pass.

I agree, the cherry-picking is old and tiring. The fact is none of us will know the numbers of Xbox series consoles sold or how profitable Game Pass is without Microsoft providing those numbers in a clear manner. Everything else is guestimate and subject to bias/misinterpretation. I'm not expecting clarification from them until/unless they hit a major positive milestone.

I really don't see the "cherry picking" in pointing out the fact that PS5 stopped selling for a loss less than a year after launch while Xbox was reported to be losing between $100 to $200 per Phil Spencer in Nov 2022, two years after launch. Fair to point out that we don't have up to date numbers, but that's about it.

 

[KeplerL2]

I really don't see the "cherry picking" in pointing out the fact that PS5 stopped selling for a loss less than a year after launch while Xbox was reported to be losing between $100 to $200 per Phil Spencer in Nov 2022, two years after launch. Fair to point out that we don't have up to date numbers, but that's about it.

PS5 had a brief period of being even/profitable but then component prices went up (N7 wafers, GDDR6 and a few others) and went right back to losing money.

 

[Topher]

PS5 had a brief period of being even/profitable but then component prices went up (N7 wafers, GDDR6 and a few others) and went right back to losing money.

Interesting. Good to know. Thanks.

 

[ShaiKhulud1989]

PS5 had a brief period of being even/profitable but then component prices went up (N7 wafers, GDDR6 and a few others) and went right back to losing money.

The inevitable supply chain issues thanks to tariffs doesn't help either I guess.

 

[DenchDeckard]

PS5 had a brief period of being even/profitable but then component prices went up (N7 wafers, GDDR6 and a few others) and went right back to losing money.

Thank you for this. I had guessed this a couple of times on this forum and got absolutely ripped apart for even suggesting it.

 

[adamsapple]

PS5 had a brief period of being even/profitable but then component prices went up (N7 wafers, GDDR6 and a few others) and went right back to losing money.

So at this moment PS5's are also being sold at a loss ? Interesting.

 

[DenchDeckard]

So at this moment PS5's are also being sold at a loss ? Interesting.

I would take a guess they have been for atleast 18 months, maybe even 2 years.

 

[KeplerL2]

So at this moment PS5's are also being sold at a loss ? Interesting.

AFAIK regular PS5 is still sold at a minor loss, only the PS5 Pro is profitable.

 

[Codes 208]

So half the LTS of the ps5, 1/3 the ps4 and switch and still roughly 10m less than the xb1.

I suspect by the end of the generation the gap between xbox and ps will be the biggest its been since og xbox ve ps2

 

[DenchDeckard]

AFAIK regular PS5 is still sold at a minor loss, only the PS5 Pro is profitable.

I think ps5 pro is a great test bed for sony. It let's them make a profit and also gather the data on price points.

They can set high and invest some margin into promos. I imagine it will have a small discount this black friday, maybe 50 to 75 dollars/gbp. Then they can track the uplift etc.

 

[Topher]

AFAIK regular PS5 is still sold at a minor loss, only the PS5 Pro is profitable.

Has Microsoft been able to reduce their losses at all?

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

These estimates sound too optimistic. I seriously doubt they are at 37 million sold given how many times in the past couple of years Xbox hardware has been down.