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[Feindflug]

I have a hard time thinking of a game in which some aspect of game design was cut to keep a steady 60 fps. Graphics? happens all the time, but design?

Well poly count could be one thing (reduced enemy count for example) and lighting could also be a thing that could affect gameplay to a lesser extent (in certain genres like stealth & horror). I remember seeing Carmack (before the release of Rage iirc) talking about how hard was the decision to go for 60fps and how many other devs inside Id disagreed with that because of how it affected the game design.

So yeah targetting 60fps is not easy and it almost always means hard work that doesn't translate into praise or satisfaction from the consumers, especially the last few years where a game can get ripped to pieces for a sub-HD framebuffer or other graphical hitches (see CoD & Id tech 5's megatextures) and 60fps are rarely appreciated (was the reason why Insomniac stopped making R&C 60fps) it's not strange that most devs target 30fps and call it a day.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

am I the only one who doesnt expect the game to look like that on release at all?

nope. i expect it to look better with about 9 months of spit shine.

 

[danmaku]

Well poly count could be one thing (reduced enemy count for example) and lighting could also be a thing that could affect gameplay to a lesser extent (in certain genres like stealth & horror). I remember seeing Carmack (before the release of Rage iirc) talking about how hard was the decision to go for 60fps and how many other devs inside Id disagreed with that because of how it affected the game design.

So yeah targetting 60fps is not easy and it almost always means hard work that doesn't translate into praise or satisfaction from the consumers, especially the last few years where a game can get ripped to pieces for a sub-HD framebuffer or other graphical hitches (see CoD & Id tech 5's megatextures) and 60fps are rarely appreciated (was the reason why Insomniac stopped making R&C 60fps) it's not strange that most devs target 30fps and call it a day.

That's a good example, thanks. Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 reduced the number of enemies to keep a steady 60fps and it certainly impacted the gameplay (the infamous staircase of death being the most obvious case).

 

[beril]

That's the most ridiculous bullshit comment I've heard. If they want to go for more demanding graphics than they're able to pull off in 60 fps that's fine but don't pretend it's about crappy framerates being cinematic. If he actually believes that himself he shouldn't be in this industry

edit: Apparently he does acknowledge the real reasons later in the article at least

 

[nib95]

I have a hard time thinking of a game in which some aspect of game design was cut to keep a steady 60 fps. Graphics? happens all the time, but design?

Definitely.

Last of Us with the lighting, especially the dynamic lighting and shadowing from using torches in the darker areas. Really adds to the overall atmosphere and tension. As do the quality of animations and character models themselves.

GTA IV or V with larger cities, more NPC's, bigger game worlds etc.

NFS with larger, better looking racing environments and landscapes, more effects, motion blur etc.

And so on.

 

[Prototype]

They should have gone all the way and made the game in 24 fps.

Could have been an interesting experiment on many levels for both players and technically within a game engine tailored to be responsive and work in a 24 fps environment. It also fits the Victorian/steam punk vibe they've got going on, Filmic.

Missed opportunity imo.

 

[nib95]

They should have gone all the way and made the game in 24 fps.

Could have been an interesting experiment on many levels for both players and technically within a game engine tailored to be responsive and work in a 24 fps environment. It also fits the Victorian/steam punk vibe they've got going on.

Missed opportunity imo.

Nah. At 24fps you can actually notice the choppiness during gameplay, at 30fps you essentially can't. It's generally when frame rates go below around 27fps that I think it starts getting noticeable. Low 20's is where it starts getting really bad and closer to being game breaking. But 30fps is still pretty smooth overall, 60fps just icing on the cake.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

30fps is fine but can we atleast not bullshit and say "its not 60fps because the hardware can't handle that visual fidelity at that framerate."

Pretty much how I feel (as long as it's hard locked at 30)

 

[SapientWolf]

I don't see what's wrong with the comment. They tried 24fps and found out it didn't feel good to play.

I applause that developers experiment with various settings instead of blindly going for X pixels and Y fps just because that's what part of the audience asks.
It's up to the developers to ask themselves what their game truely needs to meet their vision. Console resources are limited, and should be used accordingly.

There's no reason to even try 24fps. It's already been established why that framerate works for film but not for video games. So the fact that they're specifically lusting after a film aesthetic to that degree is somewhat worrisome. It's almost as if they want to bring gaming into artistic legitimacy by literally aping film, which isn't going to happen.

 

[Salsa]

this is going in circles and I think there's no point anymore, but im just gonna leave with the fact that I cant and will never understand how a person who has played 60fps games could ever say something like this:

Nah. At 24fps you can actually notice the choppiness during gameplay, at 30fps you essentially can't.

not even a diss or anything, just don't get it

maybe I have turbo eyes

 

[PensivePen]

CVG: So of the three key aspects of a game - visuals, gameplay and story - which would you say was your priority with The Order 1886?

Game director (Dana Jan): I think story and visuals are very high. Gameplay is something that... it's a game, we make games, we can't get around it.

Hilarious, this reads like an Onion article.

 

[Quitsy]

I can deal with locked 30fps.

 

[striferser]

Imagine this scenario. The Order:1886 become the hottest sony franchise, winning multiple awards. Come Playstation 5, the order 1886 will be remastered.and it's now 60 FPS.

Man, GAF will explode...

 

[beril]

They should have gone all the way and made the game in 24 fps.

Could have been an interesting experiment on many levels for both players and technically within a game engine tailored to be responsive and work in a 24 fps environment. It also fits the Victorian/steam punk vibe they've got going on, Filmic.

Missed opportunity imo.

Surely a victorian era game should use early photography like graphics with an exposure time of a couple of minutes. So basically 0.003 fps with extreme motion blur

 

[M°°nblade]

oh my god, man

What's so omg?

60fps is more often than not used as a bullet point. Just like '1080p', it's a marketing label. It's a number that tries to measure how 'good' gameplay is. But the problem is that you can't quantify gameplay because it's too complex.

In fact, 'Frames per second' is probably the least important aspect that determines gameplay. The only reason why it's so popular is because it's the easiest way to measure a segment of that gameplay. Because everybody understands that higher means better. The same goes for 1080p and graphics.

The witchhunt on 30fps games is silly. 30fps games aren't bad. Neither does it mean the developers behind the games do not try to achieve great gameplay. It's just a number.

 

[nib95]

not even a diss or anything, just don't get it

maybe I have turbo eyes

Lol maybe you do! Or it's the set you're using. I find that lower frame rates for whatever reason sometimes come off worse on certain monitors, but it could just be placebo. For consoles I game on a Pioneer Kuro and Panasonic VT65 which I find handle motion really well.

 

[Oersted]

Witchhunt on 30 FPS. Now I've read them all. Hopefully.

Imagine this scenario. The Order:1886 become the hottest sony franchise, winning multiple awards. Come Playstation 5, the order 1886 will be remastered.and it's now 60 FPS.

Man, GAF will explode...

Never underestimate selective memory.

 

[Thrakier]

Nah. At 24fps you can actually notice the choppiness during gameplay, at 30fps you essentially can't. It's generally when frame rates go below around 27fps that I think it starts getting noticeable. Low 20's is where it starts getting really bad and closer to being game breaking. But 30fps is still pretty smooth overall, 60fps just icing on the cake.

Only if you are used to 30FPS. If you are used to 60FPS, you will be able to see the chopiness. It's not smooth. Try switching games on the fly to better notice it.

 

[Zemm]

I can't think of anything that goes more against my gaming tastes than someone trying to emulate film. Like, Sony first, second, third (whatever) party are pushing further and further into an area I can't fucking stand. Any Dev using the term 'filmic' immediately goes on my shit list.

 

[Feindflug]

That's a good example, thanks. Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 reduced the number of enemies to keep a steady 60fps and it certainly impacted the gameplay (the infamous staircase of death being the most obvious case).

Yep, the differences between NGII and Sigma 2 is a good example.

 

[Thrakier]

Definitely.

Last of Us with the lighting, especially the dynamic lighting and shadowing from using torches in the darker areas. Really adds to the overall atmosphere and tension. As do the quality of animations and character models themselves.

GTA IV or V with larger cities, more NPC's, bigger game worlds etc.

NFS with larger, better looking racing environments and landscapes, more effects, motion blur etc.

And so on.

What adds to atmosphere and tension is the feel of being in control and being in the game, being one with your character. The stuttering mess which is TLOU is constantly breaking the fourth wall, screaming at you, HEY, I'M JUST A VIDEOGAME, SEE? DONT BELIEVE? LET ME STUTTER A BIT....YEEAAAH...YOU NEVER SAW THAT IN REAL LIFE BEFORE, DID YOU? HA! JUST A GAME!

It's horrible. I can't immerse in a game like that, because stuttering, judder, slow framerates, that is all so unnatural and artificial. There is no immersion in games with shit framerates.

 

[boredandlazy]

Never underestimate selective memory.

Indeed.

 

[nib95]

What adds to atmosphere and tension is the feel of being in control and being in the game, being one with your character. The stuttering mess which is TLOU is constantly breaking the fourth wall, screaming at you, HEY, I'M JUST A VIDEOGAME, SEE? DONT BELIEVE? LET ME STUTTER A BIT....YEEAAAH...YOU NEVER SAW THAT IN REAL LIFE BEFORE, DID YOU? HA! JUST A GAME!

It's horrible. I can't immerse in a game like that, because stuttering, judder, slow framerates, that is all so unnatural and artificial. There is no immersion in games with shit framerates.

Last of Us is one of the most critically acclaimed video games ever released, was incredibly well received by fans and gamers alike, and was GAF's GOTY. I think you're over stating things just a bit..

 

[Berserker976]

What adds to atmosphere and tension is the feel of being in control and being in the game, being one with your character. The stuttering mess which is TLOU is constantly breaking the fourth wall, screaming at you, HEY, I'M JUST A VIDEOGAME, SEE? DONT BELIEVE? LET ME STUTTER A BIT....YEEAAAH...YOU NEVER SAW THAT IN REAL LIFE BEFORE, DID YOU? HA! JUST A GAME!

It's horrible. I can't immerse in a game like that, because stuttering, judder, slow framerates, that is all so unnatural and artificial. There is no immersion in games with shit framerates.

Wow. If framerate bothers you so much that you can't be immersed in the world I can't even imagine how disconnected you must feel from literally almost all movies ever.

I genuinely feel bad for people that have their experiences ruined by normal framerates in games, it must be endlessly frustrating.

 

[Ashes]

The more I hear about this game the more PR crap I relate to it.

 

[danmaku]

What's so omg?

60fps is more often than not used as a bullet point. Just like '1080p', it's a marketing label. It's a number that tries to measure how 'good' gameplay is. But the problem is that you can't quantify gameplay because it's too complex.

In fact, 'Frames per second' is probably the least important aspect that determines gameplay. The only reason why it's so popular is because it's the easiest way to measure a segment of that gameplay. Because everybody understands that higher means better. The same goes for 1080p and graphics.

The witchhunt on 30fps games is silly. 30fps games aren't bad. Neither does it mean the developers behind the games do not try to achieve great gameplay. It's just a number.

lol? 60 fps isn't popular at all. Very few devs target 60fps, because most buyers don't give a fuck about framerate, they just want eye candy. It's a hot topic on GAF, but that's it. It's not even a marketing point, have you ever seen CoD games boasting their smooth 60 fps?

 

[Kem0sabe]

Nothing in this game, besides graphics, has peaked my interest, from what gameplay has been shown, it just looks like a generic cover shooter.

 

[Oersted]

Indeed.

Will you fight against The Last of Us, now being a 60 FPS game?

 

[boredandlazy]

Will you fight against The Last of Us, now being a 60 FPS game?

I don't understand the question. Are you seriously asking whether I'm against games being 60fps?

 

[Oersted]

I don't understand the question. Are you seriously asking whether I'm against games being 60fps?

He said:

Imagine this scenario. The Order:1886 become the hottest sony franchise, winning multiple awards. Come Playstation 5, the order 1886 will be remastered.and it's now 60 FPS.

Man, GAF will explode...

Thats exactly what happens to The Last of Us.

 

[boredandlazy]

He said:



Thats exactly what happens to The Last of Us.

But why would I fight against the Last of Us being 60fps?

 

[Thrakier]

Wow. If framerate bothers you so much that you can't be immersed in the world I can't even imagine how disconnected you must feel from literally almost all movies ever.

I genuinely feel bad for people that have their experiences ruined by normal framerates in games, it must be endlessly frustrating.

Because I PLAY movies, right? I can't believe that GAF is now discussing Movies and Games framerate on the exact same stance. Is that what the last gen brought us to? Unbelievable.

Last of Us is one of the most critically acclaimed video games ever released, was incredibly well received by fans and gamers alike, and was GAF's GOTY. I think you're over stating things just a bit..

How am I overstating things? I'm just explaining how I feel and I don't give a fuck how critically acclaimed is, because Journalists are the worst then it comes to framerate and technical background. They know nothing. The game would've been worlds better with a stable framerate and no one even bothers to mention it.

 

[M°°nblade]

Only if you are used to 30FPS. If you are used to 60FPS, you will be able to see the chopiness. It's not smooth. Try switching games on the fly to better notice it.

If this were true, all games would be 60fps by now.

The reason that the majority of console games runs at 30fps is because most people simply don't percieve the chopiness.

 

[benny_a]

Will you fight against The Last of Us, now being a 60 FPS game?

If I could get a The Last of Us that maxed out the PS4 at 30 FPS then sign me the fuck up. But that's essentially a new game, so I guess I'll take the port.

 

[Oersted]

But why would I fight against the Last of Us being 60fps?

The way you attacked, those who say 60 fps is better for videogames, was missleading, sorry.

If I could get a The Last of Us that maxed out the PS4 at 30 FPS then sign me the fuck up. But that's essentially a new game, so I guess I'll take the port.

Imagine what they could achieve with 720p/20 fps. We can only dream.

Good thing nearly everyone that played it disagrees with you.

Naughty Dog really shouldn't release TLoU as 1080/60 fps game.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

What adds to atmosphere and tension is the feel of being in control and being in the game, being one with your character. The stuttering mess which is TLOU is constantly breaking the fourth wall, screaming at you, HEY, I'M JUST A VIDEOGAME, SEE? DONT BELIEVE? LET ME STUTTER A BIT....YEEAAAH...YOU NEVER SAW THAT IN REAL LIFE BEFORE, DID YOU? HA! JUST A GAME!

It's horrible. I can't immerse in a game like that, because stuttering, judder, slow framerates, that is all so unnatural and artificial. There is no immersion in games with shit framerates.

Good thing nearly everyone that played it disagrees with you.

 

[Berserker976]

Because I PLAY movies, right? I can't believe that GAF is now discussing Movies and Games framerate on the exact same stance. Is that what the last gen brought us to? Unbelievable.

I think you're confused. My point wasn't that framerate affects movies and games in the same way, it was that framerate doesn't impact how immersed most people get in worlds, characters, and stories.

If you were talking about major technical issues that severely hindered gameplay performance then I would agree. Things like crashes, major graphical or audio glitches, and gameplay-affecting bugs definitely hurt immersion, but a solid 30 fps, or even 30 fps with minor dips usually doesn't pull people out of the game.

 

[Thrakier]

I think you're confused. My point wasn't that framerate affects movies and games in the same way, it was that framerate doesn't impact how immersed most people get in worlds, characters, and stories.

If you were talking about major technical issues that severely hindered gameplay performance then I would agree. Things like crashes, major graphical or audio glitches, and gameplay-affecting bugs definitely hurt immersion, but a solid 30 fps, or even 30 fps with minor dips usually doesn't pull people out of the game.

It depens on what people are used to. That is really all there is to say. And on consoles they only get glimpses of stable 60FPS here and there - and they certainly feel it link in "wow that game feels great to play" if some one would actually bother to make a valid audit of casuals playing 60fps vs 30fps (which would be a hard thing to do anyway). It's certainly not enough to get used to, except for certain game series.

It's so weird that people believe all things are set in stone, they are even absolutely sure that their own feelings towards a certain subject will never change, e.g. "30FPS will always be good enough for me" etc. - for the record, I played games with shitty framerates all my life and I enjoyed many of them. Motorstorm 2 is/was my fave arcarde racer of all time. But hell, I wouldn't touch a 30FPS racer ever again. And not because of elitism but just because it isn't fun to me anymore. It feels awkward.

 

[boredandlazy]

The way you attacked, those who say 60 fps is better for videogames, was missleading, sorry.

Sorry, but that is absolute bullsit and a complete misrepresentation of what I've said.
I have an issue with people like you, who've been acting like 60fps is the only way to go and that everyone who thinks otherwise can go take a hike.
Of course there are undisputable benefits to 60fps, but it's not one of my main determining factors when deciding whether I should purchase a game.

 

[M°°nblade]

lol? 60 fps isn't popular at all. Very few devs target 60fps, because most buyers don't give a fuck about framerate, they just want eye candy.

Buyers DO care about framerate. Nobody wants to play pretty 15fps slideshows. It's just that, for most game(r)s, 30fps happens to be the sweetspot between responsiveness, fluidity and visuals.
And it will remain the sweetspot untill in-game visuals hit a certain ceiling. You will see 60fps games when the day arrives that jumping from 30fps to 60fps doesn't come with a visual downgrade.

It's a hot topic on GAF, but that's it. It's not even a marketing point, have you ever seen CoD games boasting their smooth 60 fps?

Yes I have

Sledgehammer Games General Manager Glen Schofield says Modern Warfare 3's ability to run at 60 frames per second gives it a distinct edge over the competition because if you're not running at 60, you might as well not be running at all.

Either way, it's a hot topic. I don't remember '30fps' being an issue on gaf when the Xbox360 and PS3 launched. I don't understand why 60fps suddenly is so important because at that time, you had plenty of gamers being used to 60fps PC games as well.

 

[M°°nblade]

Imagine what they could achieve with 720p/20 fps.

Unlike 720p/20fps, 1080p/30fps is not a blurry slideshow so there's no point in ridiculing his argument.

 

[Brofist]

lol? 60 fps isn't popular at all. Very few devs target 60fps, because most buyers don't give a fuck about framerate, they just want eye candy. It's a hot topic on GAF, but that's it. It's not even a marketing point, have you ever seen CoD games boasting their smooth 60 fps?

I disagree. I just think the average gamer doesn't think about it. I still maintain to this day this day that the reason CoD is so popular is because of the "fluid feel" aka 60 fps.

 

[nib95]

Imagine what they could achieve with 720p/20 fps. We can only dream.

Why stop there? Lets go 8K and 240fps! Just drop the visuals to accommodate. Frame rate is king!

 

[Louis Cyphre]

I'd love it if devs would, for once, stop pretending that going to 30fps instead of 60 is some sort of "artistic choice".

It's bullshit. They know it, we know it, why pretend otherwise?

Because it's an easier way to not answer. If they truly wanted to satisfy the consumer they would have the option to play the game at 24, 30 and 60 fps but that isn't going to happen because they know graphics sell. So they will push the hardware which means 60fps would mean they would have to pull back in certain areas.

 

[Spades]

Why are people okay with this when they lost their shit when Ryse was not 60fps on Xbox One, despite being the best looking current-fen game? People said it was unacceptable back then but now people are fine with it? I don't understand.

 

[benny_a]

Why are people okay with this when they lost their shit when Tomb Raider was not 60fps on Xbox One? People said it was unacceptable back then but now people are fine with it? I don't understand.

Quote the ones that are being hypocritical so they are pointed out to the mods. If someone is purposefully being disingenuous in a discussion they will get a talking to by the powers that be.

 

[nib95]

Why are people okay with this when they lost their shit when Tomb Raider was not 60fps on Xbox One? People said it was unacceptable back then but now people are fine with it? I don't understand.

Firstly, a lot of people are still losing their shit over it. See this thread, heck, even this page.
Second, because Tomb Raider is a cross gen port that looks not even in the same league as graphically and technically impressive as The Order 1886, though that's just my guess.

Personally I wish they'd just gone 30fps locked for the PS4 version and blown out the visuals more. A game like Tomb raider doesn't need to be 60fps, though obviously the extra smoothness isn't exactly a bad thing.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Buyers DO care about framerate. Nobody wants to play pretty 15fps slideshows. It's just that, for most game(r)s, 30fps happens to be the sweetspot between responsiveness, fluidity and visuals.
And it will remain the sweetspot untill in-game visuals hit a certain ceiling. You will see 60fps games when the day arrives that jumping from 30fps to 60fps doesn't come with a visual downgrade.


Yes I have


Either way, it's a hot topic. I don't remember '30fps' being an issue on gaf when the Xbox360 and PS3 launched. I don't understand why 60fps suddenly is so important because at that time, you had plenty of gamers being used to 60fps PC games as well.

It's become a hot topic because hardware is getting better all the time which now allows both great visuals and 60fps. Consumers will be satisfied just like before with 30fps but is anyone really going to complain if the game is 60fps? Only if it means the visuals would be downgraded. What I get tired of is the developers explaining why they chose 30fps over 60. We all know it's because the hardware cannot handle it so why not just say it?

 

[Spades]

Firstly, a lot of people are still losing their shit over it. See this thread, heck, even this page.

Second, because Tomb Raider is a cross gen port that looks not even in the same league as graphically and technically impressive as The Order 1886, though that's just my guess.

I edited my post - Ryse is a better example. Graphically the best game on current gen and that got the same treatment.

 

[benny_a]

What I get tired of is the developers explaining why they chose 30fps over 60. We all know it's because the hardware cannot handle it so why not just say it?

And in a potential world where the consoles had twice the power of the PS4, no developer would opt for 30 FPS over 60 FPS?

Wut.

I edited my post - Ryse is a better example. Graphically the best game on current gen and that got the same treatment.

Then quote those people. If you allege that people are being deliberately disingenuous during a discussion and you provide evidence to support this that is usually welcomed.