SomedayTheFire
Member
Sexism is ingrained into society. Have you ever heard of the phrase "throw like a girl"? Yep, that's sexism but it's so widely used and accepted many don't even put a thought into it.
No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry
Sexism is ingrained into society. Have you ever heard of the phrase "throw like a girl"? Yep, that's sexism but it's so widely used and accepted many don't even put a thought into it.
I'm guessing that to the type of people who do this type of shit that being a woman at all isn't "normal" to them. The type of people I received harassment from treated most women much the same way from what I saw. Anyone that isn't part of their own little "bubble" is a target.
Yes. And it's difficult. Context: I have a team of 18-ish people full time. Roughly half are women, and all of them came from different teams from the company.
I interviewed all of them individually and was pretty surprised/horrified at the... less than optimal treatment they had received. Typically lower salaries, lower titles, experience and seniority but no involvement in leadership despite a desire to do so, etc.
I've been rectifying that over time and the team is simply fantastic. I've had a lot of people joke saying that my life must be tough with all these moody women in the team - whereas it's the total opposite.
Now on the other hand, I recently introduced someone into the team who shares my responsibilities in equal parts, and unfortunately this has not gone well. The issue is about seniority, experience and fundamentally different views of the job - and not that she is a woman - but the more friction there is between us, the more I feel her trying to pull the discrimination card. On one hand, all of our managers are male and I can understand her concerns about bullying or cutting off her voice. On the other, she is sabotaging everyone with her behaviour. I'm still scratching my head as to what the best course of action is, since she's gone from friendly banter about our disagreements being because she's a woman to saying any diverging opinion on my part is me attacking her skills and lacking in trust.
Petrae
Member
I'd rather see comments dismantled and replaced by a return to Letters to the Editor submissions that are reviewed and reprinted as reaction. Make commenters work to be heard; if they're bile-filled and offensive, their stuff isn't getting printed. If they don't get printed, let commenters write a blog entry, or post their comments on their own social media accounts.
Reward thoughtful reaction, reject pointless ("First!") / offensive / threat-laced reaction.
Because it has become a serious problem on GAF, we're cracking down on dismissive posting. I understand that some people don't think there's value in having this discussion. And that's fine. But those people ought not to attempt to shout down others who do find value in it. And this is true for any number of subjects.
In terms of what we can do, I posted some examples earlier, but fundamentally it involves holding feet to the fire -- the feet of fellow gamers who don't get the message, the feet of developers who treat their female employees poorly, the feet of crazy twitter posters. I know that often there is very little we can do.
One thing we CAN do, though, is to not dismiss the complaints of women in the industry, but rather listen to them, and let them know that you understand the issue, and that you will discuss it with friends, and engage those who don't get it.
Are you a woman?
Deified Data
Banned
Seems like keeping the negative elements of our community in check would be equally beneficial to both sexes. Much like the larger feminism debate, addressing inequality in one group will have positive effects on the other. I don't know why this isn't more widely understood.
If someone texts you your address, telling you that they know where you live and that you should expect to see them at your home, that's pretty hard to ignore.
PseudoViper
Member
Gosh. To think I wanted to get into the game industry.
That's not bad. An active effort by the content owners to stymie this sort of hate speech would go a long way, though it would take a huge effort considering how much content can go up on an individual website.
The Librarian
Banned
"Hey guys. I have never seen this, therefore it is not happening!"
That's what you're saying. These women are talking about their experiences, and your borderline saying they're lying. Why would they lie?
licktheenvelope
Member
Nope. But I don't see/hear it from men I know either and I've never been in a situation where i've noticed something that disturbed me from how a man was acting towards a woman (not counting random internet comments which I hope people aren't actually taking seriously...).
Even at work a huge # of women are mangers and/or in higher exec. positions. Never seen them approached or accosted by men... but apparently it's a daily occurrence everywhere... except where I seem to be.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Not to at all diminish anything you've gone through, but if you've felt it important to explain to people how bad harassment can get by relating your personal experience, does it not make sense that it's difficult for you or most people to understand how bad harassment can be for others who don't or have yet to relate their personal experiences?
We should change that to "He throws like 50 cent"
SomedayTheFire
Member
This i'm ok with!
Hot Coldman
Banned
Christ on a bike, that's a dark opening. I mean, utterly unsurprising, because at this point if you act like this behaviour doesn't exist you're either ignorant or complicit, but super dark.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Fucking christ some well deserved bans in this thread. Well credit to GAF that the discussion didn't entirely turn into various ways to either dismiss the issue or else turn it around into a discussion of men's issues
stufte
Member
So their anecdotal evidence that it's happening EVERYWHERE is more legit than my anecdotal evidence?
And I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I believe her when she says that it's happening to her.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Absolutely. I just don't want the discussion to merely revolve around that, as if the issue were solved by reducing the volume to what is deemed acceptable for men.
Not only that, but who says the solution has to be just for women. If you are a straight CIS male being threatened by another straight CIS male, you should be able to seek protection from the authority on call.
This isn't limited to online interactions. The article talks about women experiencing sexism in the work place - when their job is making games. Additionally, "don't feed the trolls" doesn't work when one needs to explore online to get critical feedback on their product. That is an important step in game creation (and really any creative endeavor).
And really, "just ignore it" is a poor argument in general. These women already ignore it - they've ignored it for years. The point of the article is how simply experiencing these awful interactions is draining and demoralizing over the years.
That's not to say anything about the level of isolation that goes on. Making games is a team exercise, you can't have a member feeling like an outsider.
When I read about stuff like this, I think back to Jeri Ellsworth, a woman I deeply admire, and how the conversation when she left Valve was centered upon her being very isolated. Was she isolated by nature, or was she isolated because of weariness of the boys club that professional game making seems to be?
Even without anonymity you'd still get total cunts. Problem is, even if we could catch and arrest everyone that sent abusive messages over the internet, would it be the right thing to do?
I guess you could have some future algorithm bot thing that monitored all communications and looked for flagged words and phrases, but that'd have all kinds of ethical complications too.
The onus should definitely be on the offenders to change their behaviour, but it's going to be a real uphill battle.
licktheenvelope
Member
My problem is that I keep being told "DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! STOP THESE GUYS FROM ACCOSTING THESE WOMEN!!!" ... and I keep saying "WHERE!?!? I'M NOT SEEING THIS!!!?"
Ya I'd say and do something about females being rampantly accosted in my local area/work/school(s), rec areas, etc... but I just don't encounter this.
PhoenixFyre
Member
I know its difficult. I feel sick to my stomach having typed what I did. I can only imagine the fear that the countless others feel. I'm not trying to say no one should voice their opinions. I'm saying that focusing this issue on women alone is a mistake. it's universal, and while women are the talk of the day as far as negative industry stories go, its a much wider issue and the abuse that men face is just as important to discuss and end. My only qualm with this whole thing is the seemingly exclusive focus on women, as if men aren't going through the same.
Abuse is abuse. I don't know the numbers. I don't know if it's 60 percent men, 40 women, or 40 men and 60 women or whatever it might be. But if one guy or one girl has to deal with it, it's a problem. Gender isn't the important thing here and I think focusing on the gender is limiting the scope of the solution.
Well, gender could be a part of it. If you are a man, the odds of having the nastiest parts of rape culture will probably pass you by. But "rape culture" isn't some giant monster everyone can easily see.
"Rape Culture" is subtle. That's why there is the culture word in there. To people, such examples seem not only normal, but right and fair. Some examples include assuming the girl was asked to be raped because of clothing, the idea that cat-calling is complimenting someone, the reluctance of accusing people of sexual harrasment because they "don't want to cause a fuss." Now, those are extreme examples and ones you hopefully will not find in your personal life (with the excpetion of cat-calling, maybe), but it is prevelent everywhere.
Nostremitus
Member
People should start outing individuals who commit this type of harrassment and the companies they worked for that didn't stop it.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
They should consider incorporating diversity into their hiring practices, and the issue goes beyond dev studios to things like schools as well, because people are primed very early to move towards or away from considering certain industries. And if they find themselves facing a dearth of candidates they should consider why that is, take steps to correct it, and even expand the ways in which they look for candidates. Things like maternity leave and health coverage also disproportionately impact women (especially in the US, where the bulk of development occurs).
Laws should exist that help protect people from gender discrimination in employment and in general, and violators of those laws should be held to account.
People should voluntarily modulate their consumption to support practices they agree with and protest practices they disagree with, yes. No one is saying you're a bad person if you play Assassin's Creed 5, but rather that part of the purchasing decisions you make should be "how does supporting this kind of thing contribute to the way I'd like to see the industry unfold". This is not limited to gender discrimination; in general people should incorporate voting with their wallets, and recognize that part of voting with your wallet is sacrifice, it's not just "I don't want game x so I'm not buying game x", but rather "I do want game x, but things are preventing me from buying it with a clear conscience."
Beyond those, everyone should also continue having this conversation as a part of educating people inside and outside the industry. Journalists should keep talking about it. There are still people in this thread debating the basic premise; one of the reasons why we can't move on to accepting the premise and trying to solve things is because the premise is apparently still contentious. Conventions should focus on these issues and should be safe spaces.
Platform owners should work on attracting women and supplying content that women enjoy. It's not just good policy, it's good business. They should police online communications more harshly to prevent harassment against women. They should have staff specifically dedicated to the problem. The question shouldn't just be "how can we make more women buy our product", but rather "how can we make a product that appeals to people without alienating large groups because of their identity."
Publishers, as part of normal greenlighting processes that consider how different game elements might be received, should consider being more inclusive where possible; more female characters, better female representation, more female writers, more female staff. As part of routine testing and certification, publishers and devs should be asking themselves if their product treats people with basic respect and dignity, and if it doesn't, then they should take action to correct that.
Devs who don't have the resources should still consider incorporating women where they can. No one should respond to criticism with defence, but rather with understanding and working with critics.
Some online newspapers have actually adoped this model. I think it's a step in the right direction.
these solutions only help for online comments of course. Email threats however would also be quite simple to manage with filters and proactive action by HR and IT.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
...I think the numbers might be a bit more skewed then that, although I'd like to see them as well. But I mean, why aren't all of these harassed men coming forward?
Never knew it was just white males who liked sex. Seriously though, as if something like that annoyed you up enough to email the devs.
Scar Mortico
Banned
As much as I hate hearing stories like this and how awful it is, is there any proof that this is a recurring thing going on EVERYWHERE in the games industry? Besides just dumb youtube comments?
I'm not calling anybody a liar and I do think that when a tree falls while no one is around it certainly does make a sound, it's just I have not been around anything like what the article writer is claiming. Like ever lol.
I only know that apparently, this is a thing. While I'm just pretty much idling my thumbs and just wanting to discuss video games with as little anger around each other as possible.
I just want to know how much of this is actually true and that any of this is actually happening besides some Anita Sarkinson videos with dumb youtube comments.
I'm not calling anybody a liar and I do think that when a tree falls while no one is around it certainly does make a sound, it's just I have not been around anything like what the article writer is claiming. Like ever lol.
I only know that apparently, this is a thing. While I'm just pretty much idling my thumbs and just wanting to discuss video games with as little anger around each other as possible.
I just want to know how much of this is actually true and that any of this is actually happening besides some Anita Sarkinson videos with dumb youtube comments.
So that explains that.
Hey, have you ever actually asked those women you are speaking for whether they ever feel threatened by men? What kind of routines they need to go through to stay safe when going out? What kind of behavior they encounter both online with anonymous people and in person?
It's not always so blatant.
How is it masturbatory? There are literal quotes of women getting rape threat(s) -- it doesn't seem to be an isolated incident.
People anonymously harassing on a blog post are one thing -- you probably can't find many people by the IP addresses, maybe a few. But it's another level altogether if someone starts texting you. I was confused why she didn't have the number of the text -- but I guess I'm largely ignorant and there are lots of anonymous texting services available?
The thing is, such behavior is happening. It is obviously, blatantly both despicable and a threat. You can assume that some or most people making the threats won't stalk/rape/murder you as you walk to your car one day, but the fact that they're being made at all is significant in my opinion.
I don't think brushing it under the rug or trying to ignore it is the answer. Instead, it should be an extremely public thing, and people involved in the industry who are against such behavior (as hopefully MOST people are) should speak out. It would be great if a few of the people who do make the kind of psycho threats mentioned in the article would actually get caught, since maybe some sort of legal action, combined with people in the industry condemning such attitudes, COULD lead to an overall improvement in the situation.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Lots of sexism recently,this is like the 3rd article in the past month regarding sexism and gaming, weird :-?
But like racism, there will always be someone who is racist/sexist, but there should be things in place to protect victims against it in any industry.
But like racism, there will always be someone who is racist/sexist, but there should be things in place to protect victims against it in any industry.
Something that isn't discussed a lot of the time when discussing human women facing sexism is how we portray females in games themselves. It isn't a coincidence women in games are very often objectified, or if it's a Vita game, gropable. It seems like a Feminist Frequency video thread is full of hate and bile, but a thread on real life people dealing with sexism is much less so. Do people not see that this shit's all connected?
licktheenvelope
Member
See I don't put that as "asking to be raped"... by what someone wears, however I would say "asking for attention." There's a massive difference there but when I see men cork their heads at women wearing ridiculously tight yoga pants i'm not chalking that up to a 'culture of rape.'
When the tech is in place, I wouldn't be against a system that lets users easily flag abusive game chat (perhaps saving it server side), leading to offending users being permanently banned from online services on the console if a review of the chat demonstrates harassment.
Even if you don't see it, it's just safer to assume the worst. Why wouldn't it be true?
RC, triggers, etc etc are going to fly over your head 9/10's.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
"Ha ha you thought this thing you're supposed to unconditionally like was misplaced so you mentioned it"
The huge difference is though that (purely talking in terms of gender) a man will never receive those kind of threats simply because he is a man. A woman will, though.
That works the same for sexuality - a heterosexual will never receive threats because he's straight. A homosexual/bi-sexual will.
Those who fall into what is considered normative brackets are protected from those things by privilige. Sure, they may experience abuse, as all people will do at some point in their lives, but none of it will be because of their gender/race/sexuality.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Netherscourge
Banned
DidntKnowJack
Member
Let's face it. There has always been a number of people in gaming that are downright scummy and they get off on treating other people like shit. We've always brushed them off as "trolls" or people hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, but it turns out that a lot of them are just really bad people. I had to stop playing on Xbox Live because I couldn't bear to hear another asshole spewing out racial slurs like it was going out of style. (If only.)
So its little surprise to me that these people treat women the same way. Speaking to them like a Neanderthal man looking for a woman to drag off to his cave, mocking and ridiculing the other females that bemuse them along the way. Individuals who are attempting to impart their dominance on society because MAN STRONG, WOMAN WEAK when in fact they're just proving to the world that they have shitty parents and they're basically just huge assholes.
So its little surprise to me that these people treat women the same way. Speaking to them like a Neanderthal man looking for a woman to drag off to his cave, mocking and ridiculing the other females that bemuse them along the way. Individuals who are attempting to impart their dominance on society because MAN STRONG, WOMAN WEAK when in fact they're just proving to the world that they have shitty parents and they're basically just huge assholes.
It's an anime version of my original Eddie Campbell Bacchus.