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[TrueGrime]

You know, the fucked up part of this is even if Bungie wasn't associated with that IGN video about parity, if the game released and looked about 95% similar then people who have pinged them to be lazy devs anyway. I guess the name of the game is push your machine to the complete max. We don't care how much time you put into developing the game, nor the resources you have, nor if you reached your goal or not. If your a 3rd party developer then there must be some disparity in some, shape, form or way.

 

[benny_a]

If your a 3rd party developer then there must be some disparity in some, shape, form or way.

Why wouldn't there be a disparity for a game that is pushing the systems?

 

[crappybannedjunior999999]

I'm at a loss of how to even argue anymore

The game needs to achieve certain benchmarks, time to develop on the PS3,360,PS4 and XB1 will not be evenly split. They will take the time required to achieve those benchmarks.

By your odd logic, how do you know that working with MS engineers did not speed up to development time vs working solo on the PS4?
or that the PS4 code was not started way before the XB1?

It's not odd logic, It's what I know from stated facts. The points you raise, while valid and good ones, are still purely conjecture. Microsoft did not come in to deal with underpowered hardware problems and somehow speed the overall process up thereby benefitting everyone, I'm certain you don't really believe that.

Spoiler

If you do, well, I apologize, and we'll leave it at that.

 

[TrueGrime]

Why wouldn't there be a disparity for a game that is pushing the systems?

I'm not saying there wouldn't be any. I'm asking why do devs automatically need to push systems to the max?

 

[intheinbetween]

I'm at a loss of how to even argue anymore

The game needs to achieve certain benchmarks, time to develop on the PS3,360,PS4 and XB1 will not be evenly split. They will take the time required to achieve those benchmarks.

By your odd logic, how do you know that working with MS engineers did not speed up to development time vs working solo on the PS4?
or that the PS4 code was not started way before the XB1?

I thought PS4 was the lead platform for Destiny

 

[benny_a]

I'm not saying there wouldn't be any. I'm asking why do devs automatically need to push systems to the max?

They don't have to - but whatever Destiny is at the moment in the beta state is very likely not close to the maximum that the PS4 can do. This whole hypothetical discussion is about the Xbox One version matching the PS4 beta, which means the PS4 automatically can be better because of the hardware advantage.

And so speaking purely on technical merit, the vast majority of people were (and still are) satisfied with Destiny's performance on the PS4 (1080p and 30FPS), when they presumed (correctly) that the XBO version was going to be 900p.

That's not how I remember the Destiny alpha technical discussion thread.

 

[Vast.]

In a technical discussion, I see little in value to the conversation. I see an on point post and then I see one which says people are buying it because it's good. That's nice but this is a technical discussion, not one of merit.

And so speaking purely on technical merit, the vast majority of people were (and still are) satisfied with Destiny's performance on the PS4 (1080p and 30FPS), when they presumed (correctly) that the XBO version was going to be 900p.
But people like you are only raising a stink because Microsoft improved the SDK and personally helped Bungie put more manpower in to increasing the resolution to 1080p as well.
So quite literally, you're issue is about why the XBO version is not inferior. Which says a lot about you.

 

[crappybannedjunior999999]

I'm not saying there wouldn't be any. I'm asking why do devs automatically need to push systems to the max?

Hmmm. You're right. I guess they don't need to anymore. Controller preference, robust online infrastructure and where your friends play seem to be the determining factor for buying decisions in the new gen.

My how things have changed but stayed the same.

 

[jem0208]

And so speaking purely on technical merit, the vast majority of people were (and still are) satisfied with Destiny's performance on the PS4 (1080p and 30FPS), when they presumed (correctly) that the XBO version was going to be 900p.
But people like you are only raising a stink because Microsoft improved the SDK and personally helped Bungie put more manpower in to increasing the resolution to 1080p as well.
So quite literally, you're issue is about why the XBO version is not inferior. Which says a lot about you.

Yeah, this seems pretty on point to me.


Everyone seemed to be pretty damn happy with the visuals in Destiny on PS4. Until they announced the X1 is going to be similar. And suddenly they're not good enough.


Does the mere fact that another system has similar looking graphics make your version of the game worse in anyway? No, and if you think it does then I feel seriously sorry for you. Because that's a really shitty reason to not let yourself enjoy games.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

And so speaking purely on technical merit, the vast majority of people were (and still are) satisfied with Destiny's performance on the PS4 (1080p and 30FPS), when they presumed (correctly) that the XBO version was going to be 900p.
But people like you are only raising a stink because Microsoft improved the SDK and personally helped Bungie put more manpower in to increasing the resolution to 1080p as well.
So quite literally, you're issue is about why the XBO version is not inferior. Which says a lot about you.

My points are mainly piggy backed or commenting n the current flow. Did you see me just come in here in response to other posts. Frankly, you don' know me so don't pretend to pass that last bit as some kind walk off home run.

Once again, the "stink" being raised is merely by responding to other statements. You know, such as Turks. If you're so offended by my posts then surely a less rational stance as his would grab your attention. What does that say about you? How does it feel to be questioned like that?

Does the mere fact that another system has similar looking graphics make your version of the game worse in anyway? No, and if you think it does then I feel seriously sorry for you. Because that's a really shitty reason to not let yourself enjoy games.

Here it is again. You are in a technical discussion. If we wanted to talk about the game being great on both then there's the beta discussion.

 

[benny_a]

Everyone seemed to be pretty damn happy with the visuals in Destiny on PS4. Until they announced the X1 is going to be similar. And suddenly they're not good enough.

Interesting how you also not have read any negative criticism of the Alpha visuals.

Two people that accuse others of being teh bias and one even saying another poster is "pathetic" must have read some alternative reality version of Digital Foundry where these criticism never came up.

Luckily we can collapse the wave function and look up the thread if there actually wasn't any criticism leveled at for example the image quality.

 

[TK Turk]

My points are mainly piggy backed or commenting n the current flow. Did you see me just come in here in response to other posts. Frankly, you don' know me so don't pretend to pass that last bit as some kind walk off home run.

Once again, the "stink" being raised is merely by responding to other statements. You know, such as Turks. If you're so offended by my posts then surely a less rational stance as his would grab your attention. What does that say about you? How does it feel to be questioned like that?

He seems to share the same opinion as me, improved SDK and Msoft help. I doubt he's going to try and refute my less rational stance considering he has a very similar stance. As do a lot of people in this thread.

 

[Metfanant]

So quite literally, you're issue is about why the XBO version is not inferior. Which says a lot about you.

But there is a valid reason to have an issue with that and it has nothing to do with being a fanboy of either side...and that's the underlying FACT that the PS4 is a more powerful console...that is the only real undeniable truth in this entire argument...

What his concern is, is that we see a situation where there has OBVIOUSLY been an extra level of optimization on the Xbone side of things...to get it up to 1080p...I'm personally ok with this...but I can see the concern from some..what COULD Destiny look like if Bungie had brought the ICE team in for a few weeks of optimization?

 

[TrueGrime]

They don't have to - but whatever Destiny is at the moment in the beta state is very likely not close to the maximum that the PS4 can do. This whole hypothetical discussion is about the Xbox One version matching the PS4 beta, which means the PS4 automatically can be better because of the hardware advantage.

Hypothetically, if Destiny released and there were no graphical changes to speak of (other than the XB1 releasing at 1080p) would you be disappointed that the developers didn't go back and utilize more power out of the PS4?

 

[Chobel]

Damn! the generalization in this thread:

Someone liked PS4 alpha visuals --> Everyone liked PS4 alpha visuals
Now because someone wants better visual for PS4 Destiny --> Everyone changed their minds about Destiny visuals.

 

[benny_a]

Hypothetically, if Destiny released and there were no graphical changes to speak of (other than the XB1 releasing at 1080p) would you be disappointed that the developers didn't go back and utilize more power out of the PS4?

No, but I don't care that much. On an intellectual level I would find it curious and interesting how a high-profile developer is unable to make use of the better hardware available.

If I have to use disappointment in a sentence it would be disappointment in the technical abilities of the developer. Usually I'm quick to blame publishers, but not when they use post-processing AA.

 

[crappybannedjunior999999]

But there is a valid reason to have an issue with that and it has nothing to do with being a fanboy of either side...and that's the underlying FACT that the PS4 is a more powerful console...that is the only real undeniable truth in this entire argument...

That's a truth that some people will NEVER accept. Hence the problem at hand.

 

[Synth]

Why do you think I don't make those half witted posts when I try to have a good conversation? My point stands, the joke post was more to mock Turks posts and I already read them so I hope you did. There's not more to it than that. One joke for another.


To the 1st paragraph - I commented on others bring that point up. I was not the original person to bring up the help but clearly if they need help then they are either in a bad spot or really need help in getting the XB version up to par with PS4. But again, that isn't my problem. It's Bungie's game, everything revolving their game is their problem. I shouldn't have to cast it so basically but there it is.

2nd paragraph - If you surmise the good and well rounded posts with the one offs then that's a you problem. I have no problem or annoyance with what we know. Clearly the reason for a long winded discussion is due to some less rounded posts. I have problem with double standards like Turks up there. Others have already quoted him enough.

And please, don't blanket statement and be vague, name who has that problem as you noted. That way we can tell them not to lose sleep over this.

I don't really think I should be required to run about quoting a bunch of people to illustrate something that has been so obvious not only in this thread, but in pretty much any thread where the PS4 and Xbox One versions of a game perform similarly. Most of the parity complaints are levelled directly at the idea of parity, and not any prior dissatisfaction with the performance of the PS4 version. It also doesn't help that people being satisfied with the PS4 version initially, generally means there's basically nothing to quote in a lot of cases because they're too busy talking up the game's other positives. Quoting people selectively isn't something I generally do, because it's not feasible to include every example, and otherwise selective to include any. I'm going to do that anyway in this case though, as you've asked me directly.


Pre Xbox One beta / DF impressions

The Gameplay is just fun. I can go into it and come out a few hours later without noticing how much time I spent. The multiple classes add variety, and the game's art style is great. I admit, PVP isn't as great as Halo, but I'm not a big pvp guy so it's not too much of an issue for me.

Post Xbox One beta / DF impressions

Probably won't skip it. I'll buy it when it hits $20, or when I can pick it up in a B2G1 free sale at GS. But parity means I won't be there day 1. I just don't like it, never have.

The game is now a $20/B2G1 free purchase primarily because the Xbox One version is closer than expected. Not because the PS4 version wasn't good enough in the first place.

I'll try one more time. What people suggested earlier in the thread, myself included, was that Bungie seems to have put more time and man hours into the One version. Microsoft's engineers had to work side by side with Bungie employees, these are man hours utilized to improve only ONE console. They didn't just hand Microsoft the keys to the office and then leave for the weekend while the engineers worked their magic.

It's the seeming disparity of resources that bothers people not the fact that Microsoft helped Bungie.

Xbox One- Time spent with engineers to get to Microsoft's required/desired resolution and performance. Time spent improving the game beyond what Bungie deemed was acceptable.

PS4- No additional time or resources allocated for performance reasons to our knowledge.

You may not have seen it but Bungie's community manager came here and stated that the advantages of all systems will be utilized. It is my belief that he was not speaking of rumble triggers and touch pads. We can only wait and see what the final product will bring and judge at that point. Up until then almost this whole discussion is conjecture.

The amount of assumptions required here make it not worth getting upset over though. You make it sound like the PS4 and Xbox One versions both had 1000 man days (obviously I'm using ridiculous low number here, but whatever) and then they added an extra 200 to the Xbox One alongside the guys MS sent in. How do you know that they didn't get to 800 man days, and then MS saw the disparity between the two versions, and offered their guys to help with the remaining 200? This would mean that they both received equivalent effort on Bungie's behalf, with MS making up whatever additional time was required. Hell, we don't even know for sure that the PS4 version didn't see more man hours invested.

Also again, I think it's quite possible that if equal man hours were placed on both the PS3 and 360 versions of games last gen, then the PS3 may have continuously seen ports similar in quality to the earlier days of its life. Whilst you may think "sure, that's fair... those people should have bought a 360 instead", I simply don't agree and think that if you can make both versions great, rather than one slightly greater than great and the other bad, then that's the correct choice to make. Trying to place value on the product as a simple case of the amount paid should equal a given amount of working hours for that version falls apart the second you start comparing different games. Should Sucker Punch be unable to sell their game at the same price as Rockstar? Because the difference in man hours is almost certainly far more substantial than the difference between the Xbox One and PS4 versions of Destiny... even if we were to imagine that all the MS engineers were Bungie employees.

Your stance here pretty much seems to be that Bungie should indeed have refused any additional support from MS for the Xbox One version, because it's not fair. Which is funny, because your original stance in this thread was very much "why anyone would consider an inferior version if they're not uninformed?"... so, maybe that would explain why MS would try to help prevent that from being the case as much as possible. But that's a no no as well right?

 

[TrueGrime]

No, but I don't care that much. On an intellectual level I would find it curious and interesting how a high-profile developer is unable to make use of the better hardware available.

If I have to use disappointment in a sentence it would be disappointment in the technical abilities of developer.

That's my point! How do you know they are unable to make use of the hardware? Why can't a developer reach a goal(s) they set out for and be happy with the work they've done without feeling they need to go back and tweak something just because they haven't used all the juice in the system.

Now, if they have the time and manpower to do so they can freely revisit this. The thing is that you, nor I, nor anyone else other than Bungie know their capabilities, what their time constraints are, what their goals are, etc. Assuming these only leads to one thought path and that's the path that the "developer is lazy".

 

[benny_a]

That's my point! How do you know they are unable to make use of the hardware? Why can't a developer reach a goal(s) they set out for and be happy with the work they've done without feeling they need to go back and tweak something just because they haven't used all the juice in the system.

How I know they are unable? You proposed this hypothetical scenario.

When I see the end result, that's how I know.

Now, if they have the time and manpower to do so they can freely revisit this. The thing is that you, nor I, nor anyone else other than Bungie know their capabilities, what their time constraints are, what their goals are, etc. Assuming these only leads to one thought path and that's the path that the "developer is lazy".

When you say capabilities, are you basically not arguing for that they are not capable enough?

In your hypothetical scenario the versions are completely identical. But we know the consoles are not completely identical and the PS4 is objectively the more powerful platform by a significant enough margin that it has manifested itself in 9/10 games that push the consoles performance wise.

Destiny is sufficiently advanced enough that it falls in the category of pushing the system (like games such as NBA 2k14, COD) instead of the category where this isn't the case (Towerfall Ascension)

 

[TrueGrime]

How I know they are unable? You proposed this hypothetical scenario.

When I see the end result, that's how I know.


When you say capabilities, are you basically not arguing for that they are not capable enough?

In your hypothetical scenario the versions are completely identical. But we know the consoles are not completely identical and the PS4 is objectively the more powerful platform by a significant enough margin that it has manifested itself in 9/10 games that push the consoles performance wise.

Destiny is sufficiently advanced enough that it falls in the category of pushing the system (like games such as NBA 2k14, COD) instead of the category where this isn't the case (Towerfall Ascension)

My fault. I see what you were saying in that first part in wondering why they were unable to make better use of the hardware. It can be a a slew of reasons that we, as the consumer don't see. It's just a personal opinion of mine that unless I have 100% of the facts on why someone did what they did, then I don't have cause to call them out. Let alone call a developer lazy. I'm not saying you did, but clearly others see that way.

Your opinion that Destiny is sufficiently pushing the system is noted. Obviously others might not agree with that assessment.

 

[jett]

I thought Destiny looked "okay" when all I knew was Old Russia, but after seeing The Moon it immediately shot up into the realm of the best looking games on the PS4.

Look at this shit. It looks absolutely amazing. Who gives a shit anymore if the PS4 could do a bit more or what. Now I feel like an asshole for saying Destiny should be running at 60fps on the PS4.

 

[benny_a]

Your opinion that Destiny is sufficiently pushing the system is noted. Obviously others might not agree with that assessment.

To clarify: I meant computational cost. It's clearly a game based on previous generation consoles and their limitations.

My point is more if they had to get the latest SDK and have MS Engineers help out to get it to 1080p then it's pushing the limits of said console and that that means it qualifies for pushing the system.

But if it can reach that target in this hypothetical on the system which has quite a bit less ALU then it's not unreasonable to expect them to spend some of the headroom on improved IQ.

I continue to be baffled how asking for improved IQ on the system which is without a doubt more powerful is in any way unreasonable. I don't claim that I'm an expert on the Destiny engine, but I don't see how changing a post-process AA implementation to a different post-process AA with a slightly higher cost but better result is outside any kind of budget.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

I thought Destiny looked "okay" when all I knew was Old Russia, but after seeing The Moon it immediately shot up into the realm of the best looking games on the PS4.

Look at this shit. It looks absolutely amazing. Who gives a shit anymore if the PS4 could do a bit more or what. Now I feel like an asshole for saying Destiny should be running at 60fps on the PS4.

Holy shit, that looks beautiful. I need a PS4 now.

 

[TrueGrime]

I thought Destiny looked "okay" when all I knew was Old Russia, but after seeing The Moon it immediately shot up into the realm of the best looking games on the PS4.

Look at this shit. It looks absolutely amazing. Who gives a shit anymore if the PS4 could do a bit more or what. Now I feel like an asshole for saying Destiny should be running at 60fps on the PS4.

It is a spectacular looking game by all accounts. The fact that a Bungie representative had to come into this thread and reaffirm to people that they are doing the best that they can for all platforms involved (because some people obviously don't think so) is a bit sad. Glad they did though. I for one think, especially on a game that's releasing on last gen platforms, this game looks amazing period.

 

[Vast.]

But there is a valid reason to have an issue with that and it has nothing to do with being a fanboy of either side...and that's the underlying FACT that the PS4 is a more powerful console...that is the only real undeniable truth in this entire argument...

What his concern is, is that we see a situation where there has OBVIOUSLY been an extra level of optimization on the Xbone side of things...to get it up to 1080p...I'm personally ok with this...but I can see the concern from some..what COULD Destiny look like if Bungie had brought the ICE team in for a few weeks of optimization?

Yeah and it was also fact that the XBO had Kinect and yet for the past 3 years of development, Bungie did nothing with it. Sometimes, not every single aspect of a console are utilized. Do Xbox owners whine and moan, every time a developer doesn't use the Kinect in a cool or interesting way?
Hell, I don't even see Xbox owners whining about the exclusive content for the PS4. What COULD this game have been and how much more content could there be if it was Xbox One exlusive and using Microsoft's Azure for it's backend?

It's just a meaningless hypothetical endeavor.

 

[Majanew]

I thought Destiny looked "okay" when all I knew was Old Russia, but after seeing The Moon it immediately shot up into the realm of the best looking games on the PS4.


*snip*

Look at this shit. It looks absolutely amazing. Who gives a shit anymore if the PS4 could do a bit more or what. Now I feel like an asshole for saying Destiny should be running at 60fps on the PS4.

Yep. The moon looks great. All my bro and I did when we first landed was stare into space. You can even see Mars far off in the distance.

 

[Piggus]

To clarify: I meant computational cost. It's clearly a game based on previous generation consoles and their limitations.

My point is more if they had to get the latest SDK and have MS Engineers help out to get it to 1080p then it's pushing the limits of said console and that that means it qualifies for pushing the system.

But if it can reach that target in this hypothetical on the system which has quite a bit less ALU then it's not unreasonable to expect them to spend some of the headroom on improved IQ.

I continue to be baffled how asking for improved IQ on the system which is without a doubt more powerful is in any way unreasonable. I don't claim that I'm an expert on the Destiny engine, but I don't see how changing a post-process AA implementation to a different post-process AA with a slightly higher cost but better result is outside any kind of budget.

I agree. And if they don't at least bump up the AF a little bit then I don't even know what to say. There's absolutely no excuse for the more powerful system to have a bunch of performance headroom and still have shitty AF or mediocre post-process AA.

 

[Synth]

Hell, I don't even see Xbox owners whining about the exclusive content for the PS4.

Oh, there was plenty of this. I did fair share bit of whining about it actually, and I have both consoles, lol.

 

[TrueGrime]

To clarify: I meant computational cost. It's clearly a game based on previous generation consoles and their limitations.

My point is more if they had to get the latest SDK and have MS Engineers help out to get it to 1080p then it's pushing the limits of said console and that that means it qualifies for pushing the system.

But if it can reach that target in this hypothetical on the system which has quite a bit less ALU then it's not unreasonable to expect them to spend some of the headroom on improved IQ.

I continue to be baffled how asking for improved IQ on the system which is without a doubt more powerful is in any way unreasonable. I don't claim that I'm an expert on the Destiny engine, but I don't see how changing a post-process AA implementation to a different post-process AA with a slightly higher cost but better result is outside any kind of budget.

Almost missed your reply under the picture wall.

I completely understand. I'm not saying it is unreasonable to question something that could be done better, but others take it too far in my opinion. Calling out developers and pinging them as too lazy to implement changes that you might think are simple, low-cost, and easy as a flip to switch on but have no real idea of how that implementation takes places is unreasonable in my opinion.

I work for a simulator development group called Benchmark Sims. We are a team that's comprised of the Falcon 4.0 community. Falcon 4.0 is a sim that's long since been untouched by Microprose. So we got the code to modify and update the game. We don't get paid for it and while a lot of the work is done on our own time, we do set goals and a timeline for getting new modifications out in a timely manner. My primary job in the group is graphics and terrain.

It's feels awesome to put out a product and get feedback on it. Both positive and negative. Positive because you know you did a good job and negative because maybe there's something you can improve upon. Then there's those comments that make you feel like shit. Where people question if you've put enough time into the work, or when people basically tell you how to do your job without fully knowing what goes on into it. You want to go out into the forums and tell those people every little bit of time and sweat it takes bit by bit to get that product to them, but realistically it would just take forever to go into the technical ins and outs.

Sometimes you have to put yourself in the developers shoes and realize it just isn't as cut and dry as, "This system is more powerful than that system" ..and that there are plenty of other factors that figure into getting a product to the consumer.

 

[mintylurb]

I thought Destiny looked "okay" when all I knew was Old Russia, but after seeing The Moon it immediately shot up into the realm of the best looking games on the PS4.

Not exactly a huge accomplishment..;b Anyway, it still looks blurry as heck for a 1080P game.

 

[AgentP]

And so speaking purely on technical merit, the vast majority of people were (and still are) satisfied with Destiny's performance on the PS4 (1080p and 30FPS), when they presumed (correctly) that the XBO version was going to be 900p.
But people like you are only raising a stink because Microsoft improved the SDK and personally helped Bungie put more manpower in to increasing the resolution to 1080p as well.
So quite literally, you're issue is about why the XBO version is not inferior. Which says a lot about you.

Yet the ps4 SDK didn't need changing and the system doesn't require ninjas to exploit, so what is bungi doing with the horse power? They are capping the frame rate and burying it. I'd like an uncapped version like Second Son or better IQ. But parity happened.

 

[3rdamention]

Damn! the generalization in this thread:

Someone liked PS4 alpha visuals --> Everyone liked PS4 alpha visuals
Now because someone wants better visual for PS4 Destiny --> Everyone changed their minds about Destiny visuals.

Lol, and it's basically a handful of people who are creating this narrative, it's sad.....

 

[Metfanant]

Yeah and it was also fact that the XBO had Kinect and yet for the past 3 years of development, Bungie did nothing with it. Sometimes, not every single aspect of a console are utilized. Do Xbox owners whine and moan, every time a developer doesn't use the Kinect in a cool or interesting way?
Hell, I don't even see Xbox owners whining about the exclusive content for the PS4. What COULD this game have been and how much more content could there be if it was Xbox One exlusive and using Microsoft's Azure for it's backend?

It's just a meaningless hypothetical endeavor.

Except this game can't use Kinect in a meaningful way...because Xbox gamers wanted that June SDK bump...sooo that really negates anything in regards to Bungie not utilizing Kinect...

I don't think you hear Xbone owners whining about Kinect being used (or not used) because most of them don't want it, or would rather MS' hardware been put towards other uses...

What could the game have done with Azure as its backend? Really? Is that even a question?...

The facts remain...

1. The PS4 is more powerful than the Xbone
2. Bungie clearly gave the Xbone version an additional level of optimization

Do I think the PS4 is more powerful enough to run the game at 60fps? No way...do I think the visuals should be vastly improved? Nope not a chance, for the size and openness of the world it looks awesome...

Do I think bringing in the ICE Team from Sony to help optimize the game (like was done for the Xbone) would have led to the PS4 version looking just a bit better (AA, particle effects, something)?...yes I do...

I DONT believe the PS4 version was intentionally held back for parity...but I do believe Bungie had a vision..achieved said vision on the PS4, and then optimized their tails off to get the Xbone to match the PS4...

THAT is where people are getting upset..I think they simply want an explanation as to why the more powerful hardware does not have some sort of advantage..if you come out and say "we are taking advantage of the strengths of all platforms" but both the PS4 and Xbone versions are identical...then it could be argued something is off...

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I don't really think I should be required to run about quoting a bunch of people to illustrate something that has been so obvious not only in this thread, but in pretty much any thread where the PS4 and Xbox One versions of a game perform similarly. Most of the parity complaints are levelled directly at the idea of parity, and not any prior dissatisfaction with the performance of the PS4 version. It also doesn't help that people being satisfied with the PS4 version initially, generally means there's basically nothing to quote in a lot of cases because they're too busy talking up the game's other positives. Quoting people selectively isn't something I generally do, because it's not feasible to include every example, and otherwise selective to include any. I'm going to do that anyway in this case though, as you've asked me directly.



The amount of assumptions required here make it not worth getting upset over though. You make it sound like the PS4 and Xbox One versions both had 1000 man days (obviously I'm using ridiculous low number here, but whatever) and then they added an extra 200 to the Xbox One alongside the guys MS sent in. How do you know that they didn't get to 800 man days, and then MS saw the disparity between the two versions, and offered their guys to help with the remaining 200? This would mean that they both received equivalent effort on Bungie's behalf, with MS making up whatever additional time was required. Hell, we don't even know for sure that the PS4 version didn't see more man hours invested.

Also again, I think it's quite possible that if equal man hours were placed on both the PS3 and 360 versions of games last gen, then the PS3 may have continuously seen ports similar in quality to the earlier days of its life. Whilst you may think "sure, that's fair... those people should have bought a 360 instead", I simply don't agree and think that if you can make both versions great, rather than one slightly greater than great and the other bad, then that's the correct choice to make. Trying to place value on the product as a simple case of the amount paid should equal a given amount of working hours for that version falls apart the second you start comparing different games. Should Sucker Punch be unable to sell their game at the same price as Rockstar? Because the difference in man hours is almost certainly far more substantial than the difference between the Xbox One and PS4 versions of Destiny... even if we were to imagine that all the MS engineers were Bungie employees.

Your stance here pretty much seems to be that Bungie should indeed have refused any additional support from MS for the Xbox One version, because it's not fair. Which is funny, because your original stance in this thread was very much "why anyone would consider an inferior version if they're not uninformed?"... so, maybe that would explain why MS would try to help prevent that from being the case as much as possible. But that's a no no as well right?

First and foremost, I would have come back to this sooner but 5m old babies don't take care of themselves.

That's nice of you to bring up quotes like that but my stance is not as you interpret. Point me to a post where I said Bungie should have refused.

I don't think I'm pointing out a double standard here but I made my points pretty clear. You want to put words in my mouth then so be it.

Here it is simple and in crayon for you

One console is more powerful and has had the majority of multi platform games run very well. The other, in the case of Destiny, had to have or send or ask for help to get things to shape. That probably says more about other things than to some lack of power the PS4 posses as this is known fact that it enjoys a sizeable advantage in terms of HW prowess. All the other posts and refutes I have made were pertaining- to other specific takes on the situation. That's why I brough up Turks post because he basically said that the magic of SDK can bridge the GAP. Now process that while understanding why I would rather come from a position more grounded than hypothetical and magical SDK updates. I'm not necessarily touching on all your points because it sounds like your assuming a lot about where I'm coming from when I put everything pretty bluntly and easy to interpret. I take more offense with people who take one thing and make a general assumption without asking for clarity. This is why I tend to make pretty clear posts and not one off remarks.

Furthermore, I think you read too much into the words instead of seeing what I was responding to. For the sake of not inflating my post, that's all I will say.

Late edit- don't mistake me as angry but I do hate it when people make assumptions out of my posts so then when I have to clarify then it makes me regurgitate points so when I say to look at other posts, it's me not wanting to repeat what I already said.

 

[moonbox]

This is ludicrous. Sony and MS are supposed to send people to 3rd parties and hold their hand so they can do their job? Bungie has a responsibility to hire talent and exploit them. The odds are Bungie had no issues hitting their target on the PS4, but their target was low for parity sake. The bottom line is X man-hours on the PS4 would get better results than X on the XB1. They picked 1080P 30fps, which was easy for the PS4 and then moved on to the squeaky wheel XB1, which they are still trying to reach the target. I say fuck that noise, spend the same time on both and let's see what they reach. Different hardware, different results.

Sorry but I think you've missed the point. Destiny on the Xbox One was 900p up until the gpu resources were freed and Microsoft offered their help. Bungie were fine with it in that state, Microsoft wasn't.

As I already stated, if it weren't for Microsoft offering their help and freeing the gpu resources, Destiny on Xbox One would be releasing in 900p, along with Destiny on PS4 at 1080p. That's how it would be set to release, that's how it was going to be. That was the 'disparity' between the consoles. Whatever target you think they set 'for parity' was either not a target they took realistically, or not a target they set at all 'for parity' but merely for the lead development platform. i.e. PS4.

I'm not saying that Sony and Microsoft need to handhold either. Just that in this case, if maximum optimizations were made on all platforms by Bungie, we'd be seeing 1080p unlocked fps on both the Xbox One and the PS4, but the PS4 would be more aesthetically pleasing. The PS3 version wouldn't have frickin' 16bit shadows, and Bungie's experience with the Xbox 360 platform wouldn't have been so blaringly obvious. But this is the real world, Bungie doesn't have infinite resources, infinite time, and infinite knowledge.

The point here, is like I already stated, Bungie is stretched thin; they're trying their best. In this instance, Microsoft took the initiative and offered their own engineers to uptake some of the overhead for the Xbox One version for a better product on their platform. If Sony did the same you'd have a much better product on the PS4 and smoother shadows on the PS3.

Sometimes shit happens. Microsoft took the initiative, it's just that simple. This has nothing to do with parity or console wars. Microsoft took the initiative. That is literally all there is to this. You guys just want to see people slaving away on the PS4 version because you feel entitled to a better product. Well like I said, Microsoft took the initiative. Sony didn't give a shit. Just like any of you guys back in the alpha. Sure Bungie shouldn't need handholding, but in this case, if Sony did what Microsoft did, you would have that product you're screaming for. And there's nothing we can do about it now, unless Bungie put in some slave labour on the PS4 version and crunch even harder than they're crunching right now, then that's it.

/end

 

[Bornstellar]

This is screaming for POM.

But yeah, the game looks nice.

 

[Synth]

Whilst we'll never know for certain... this question...

I think they simply want an explanation as to why the more powerful hardware does not have some sort of advantage..

...already has a potential answer.

Do I think bringing in the ICE Team from Sony to help optimize the game (like was done for the Xbone) would have led to the PS4 version looking just a bit better (AA, particle effects, something)?...yes I do...

The PS4 being more powerful is the likely explanation as to why this wasn't done, as that version wasn't running at 900p.

First and foremost, I would have come back to this sooner but 5m old babies don't take care of themselves.

That's nice of you to bring up quotes like that but my stance is not as you interpret. Point me to a post where I said Bungie should have refused.

I don't think I'm pointing out a double standard here but I made my points pretty clear. You want to put words in my mouth then so be it.

Here it is simple and in crayon for you

One console is more powerful and has had the majority of multi platform games run very well. The other, in the case of Destiny, had to have or send or ask for help to get things to shape. That probably says more about other things than to some lack of power the PS4 posses as this is known fact that it enjoys a sizeable advantage in terms of HW prowess. All the other posts and refutes I have made were pertaining- to other specific takes on the situation. That's why I brough up Turks post because he basically said that the magic of SDK can bridge the GAP. Now process that while understanding why I would rather come from a position more grounded than hypothetical and magical SDK updates. I'm not necessarily touching on all your points because it sounds like your assuming a lot about where I'm coming from when I put everything pretty bluntly and easy to interpret. I take more offense with people who take one thing and make a general assumption without asking for clarity. This is why I tend to make pretty clear posts and not one off remarks.

Furthermore, I think you read too much into the words instead of seeing what I was responding to. For the sake of not inflating my post, that's all I will say.

I think we're getting our wires crossed a bit here. I wasn't claiming that you think Bungie should have refused. The bottom half of my post is in reply to Dienekes, who seems to be implying that an exactly equal amount of time should be spent on each version, and that any additional assistance from MS is proof that the PS4 version received less of Bungie's time than the Xbox One version (excluding any time spent by MS engineers).

For you, I was only asking what you feel the actions and result of this should have been for Bungie. Say they had budgeted an equivalent amount of dev resources for both versions (which is unrealistic in itself in the situation of one being a lead platform, but let's just assume for now), and that was going to lead up to what we saw with the beta, Xbox at 900p and Playstation at 1080p. In this case both versions received 100% of the time allocated. Now, MS seeing that the product will be noticeably inferior on their console offers to help Bungie out, in order to bring the X1 version to 1080p. So now the Xbox One version has seen ~120% of the resources initially planned, but 20% of that came directly from MS. What is the right course for Bungie to take now? Should they have to add an additional 20% of their own resources to the PS4 version in order for it to see the same benefits? Decline MS' assistance because the PS4 version won't see a 20% benefit from Sony's help? What would you consider to be correct here?

I'm not assuming to know where you're coming from, which is why my original post started out with "I don't really understand your feelings on the whole "MS sending help" thing to be honest". I was asking you what you feel they should have done. I'm also not getting into the whole SDK thing, because none of my points of discussion are in regards to claiming the two consoles are equally capable. I'm simply going on the idea that if they run similarly because one is more optimised as a result of having the console's manufacturer help with getting the most from it, is it really fair to expect Bungie to have the game running similarly optimised on the other console which they received less assistance with?

I can see how the rest of the post that followed the first paragraph could have been interpreted as a direct response to you though, so I apologise for any misunderstanding there. That was just a general comment made for this thread, it just happened to sit below my question to you. It was mostly just to address the idea that the PS4 version must be superior under any condition, even if the reasons for apparent parity aren't directly related to Bungie themselves. Like, if MS was like "We're sending in all of 343i to assist!", Bungie would be immediately obligated to boost the PS4 version by a similar level in order to maintain a performance gap fitting of the raw specs.

 

[Achilles_]

So Xbone is catching up?

Lol.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Whilst we'll never know for certain... this question...


...already has a potential answer.


The PS4 being more powerful is the likely explanation as to why this wasn't done, as that version wasn't running at 900p.



I think we're getting our wires crossed a bit here. I wasn't claiming that you think Bungie should have refused. The bottom half of my post is in reply to Dienekes, who seems to be implying that an exactly equal amount of time should be spent on each version, and that any additional assistance from MS is proof that the PS4 version received less of Bungie's time than the Xbox One version (excluding any time spent by MS engineers).

For you, I was only asking what you feel the actions and result of this should have been for Bungie. Say they had budgeted an equivalent amount of dev resources for both versions (which is unrealistic in itself in the situation of one being a lead platform, but let's just assume for now), and that was going to lead up to what we saw with the beta, Xbox at 900p and Playstation at 1080p. In this case both versions received 100% of the time allocated. Now, MS seeing that the product will be noticeably inferior on their console offers to help Bungie out, in order to bring the X1 version to 1080p. So now the Xbox One version has seen ~120% of the resources initially planned, but 20% of that came directly from MS. What is the right course for Bungie to take now? Should they have to add an additional 20% of their own resources to the PS4 version in order for it to see the same benefits? Decline MS' assistance because the PS4 version won't see a 20% benefit from Sony's help? What would you consider to be correct here?

I'm not assuming to know where you're coming from, which is why my original post started out with "I don't really understand your feelings on the whole "MS sending help" thing to be honest". I was asking you what you feel they should have done. I'm also not getting into the whole SDK thing, because none of my points of discussion are in regards to claiming the two consoles are equally capable. I'm simply going on the idea that if they run similarly because one is more optimised as a result of having the console's manufacturer help with getting the most from it, is it really fair to expect Bungie to have the game running similarly optimised on the other console which they received less assistance with?

I can see how the rest of the post that followed the first paragraph could have been interpreted as a direct response to you though, so I apologise for any misunderstanding there. That was just a general comment made for this thread, it just happened to sit below my question to you. It was mostly just to address the idea that the PS4 version must be superior under any condition, even if the reasons for apparent parity aren't directly related to Bungie themselves. Like, if MS was like "We're sending in all of 343i to assist!", Bungie would be immediately obligated to boost the PS4 version by a similar level in order to maintain a performance gap fitting of the raw specs.

We definitely crossed our wires but it's very hard to keep up with long posts on top of different people quoting each other. But as I did note, as clear as can be, is that if there was help needed then fine. I'm not even really saying that's a bad thing as some others might be doing but am more in line with stating the obvious in that they probably don't need help to get HW parity vs them maybe leveraging the PS4 HW advantage. At this point who even knows what will happen with the final game but surely it's not the end of the discussion.

 

[Metfanant]

The PS4 being more powerful is the likely explanation as to why this wasn't done, as that version wasn't running at 900p.

And that is the basis of the argument people are making...they simply feel that if a developer is going to come out and make the claim that they are using all the strengths of each console...then the PS4 should have got that extra TLC as well...

Of course the flip side of this argument probably could have been made last gen as well...

Even though the PS3 was theoretically the superior hardware...allllll sorts of additional optimization was needed to utilize it...there is a chance in some cases that 360 multiplats were not as good as they could have been because of all the additional resources needed by the PS3...

 

[klee123]

Hell, I don't even see Xbox owners whining about the exclusive content for the PS4.

There was a whole thread about it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=850852

 

[Allnamestakenlol]

Yet the ps4 SDK didn't need changing and the system doesn't require ninjas to exploit, so what is bungi doing with the horse power? They are capping the frame rate and burying it. I'd like an uncapped version like Second Son or better IQ. But parity happened.

Not a fan of uncapped frame rates, but if they could've found it in their hearts to up the AA... ;D

 

[IN&OUT]

Having both versions at 1080p/30 means that Bungie chose to reach a certain benchmark for both version then stopped there. Which I'm totally fine with

PS4 is way more powerful than X1 and has a better memory setup and GPGPU capabilities. (numbers don't lie, everyone can look it up)

What I'm not OK with is Bungie saying that they are taking advantage of each console seperately , because that would mean PS4>>X1>>>>PS3/360 , which is not the case apparently .

I call BS on taking full advantage of PS4 then ending up with better HUD only . (that doesn't equate with 50% raw performance + other advantage PS4 has over competition )

Bungie can do whatever they like with their game, just don't treat us as fools.

 

[Metfanant]

Not a fan of uncapped frame rates, but if they could've found it in their hearts to up the AA... ;D

I would be interested to hear if Bungie thought a better AA solution could have been possible on the PS4...would help a lot I think

 

[gioGAF]

Yeah and it was also fact that the XBO had Kinect and yet for the past 3 years of development, Bungie did nothing with it. Sometimes, not every single aspect of a console are utilized. Do Xbox owners whine and moan, every time a developer doesn't use the Kinect in a cool or interesting way?
Hell, I don't even see Xbox owners whining about the exclusive content for the PS4. What COULD this game have been and how much more content could there be if it was Xbox One exlusive and using Microsoft's Azure for it's backend?

It's just a meaningless hypothetical endeavor.

This is either the dumbest argument or I just fell for a troll post. Using this logic, multi-platform developers should not optimize games for the PC, everyone should just get the same thing.

It seems like many people are missing the point. People that have bought better hardware expect better performance, period. This is not a fanboy debate. Even Bungie said they made the engine for Destiny "scalable", so I would expect the following:
PS3/X360 < Xbone < PS4 < PC

Wouldn't Xbone owners be upset if Bungie hit their "target" on the X360 and just released the same version on the bone?

 

[In Service]

This is a super good idea! Gimme a few minutes to compile a list. Make sure you stick around as I'll be digging into religion and gun rights shortly after!

I was LTTP on this one - what did he say about religion and gun rights so I can lynch him for it?

Spoiler

/s

 

[Cse]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I was watching the frame rate test for the PS4 and Xbox One versions of Destiny, and noticed a graphical discrepancy that stood out to me immediately as I was watching the video. The screenshot is below...

Notice how much more detailed the background is on the PS4 version on the left. The clouds, the mountain in the very back, the details on the wall, the lake. the reflections on the lake, and the foliage and textures around the lake are all comparatively much more detailed.

 

[commedieu]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I was watching the frame rate test for the PS4 and Xbox One versions of Destiny, and noticed a graphical discrepancy that stood out to me immediately as I was watching the video. The screenshot is below...

Notice how much more detailed the background is on the PS4 version on the left. The clouds, the mountain in the very back, the details on the wall, the lake. the reflections on the lake, and the foliage and textures around the lake are all comparatively much more detailed.

looks like the distance fog/atmosphere haze is closer to us on the Xbox One.

 

[LittleJohnny]

Yet the ps4 SDK didn't need changing and the system doesn't require ninjas to exploit, so what is bungi doing with the horse power? They are capping the frame rate and burying it. I'd like an uncapped version like Second Son or better IQ. But parity happened.

No, 1080p on PS4 and 900p on Xbox One is not parity. The assets planned for PS4 and XBO were gauged to run 1080p vs 900p, meaning that they were pushing each platform to their respective limit given the current drivers, budget and time constraint. Had the game launched at 1080p vs 900p, no one would be complaining right now.

MS releasing a new SDK with driver optimizations, allowing the use of resources originally reserved for Kinect, plus the help from MS engineers, have helped catapult what was originally going to be a 900p game, to a 1080p. This has nothing to do with the PS4 and by no means indicates that they weren't already doing their best on that hardaware, as is with any previous 1080p vs 900p Xbone game that didn't get the luxury of a new SDK, and resources to make these changes.

Also, we know the PS4 is more powerful, but we know the kind of impact updated drivers can make, and even though Sony could do some optimizing of their own, no such announcement has been made, therefore leads me to think that as of right now, the XBO has more mature drivers that take XBO one closer to its theoretical limit, while the PS4 may still be further away.

Taking the chart posted earlier, it would look something like this: