Why nerf arguably one of the few good taunters in the game? So many more cards from the set need to be looked at anyway.
Hearthstone |OT2| Created by Unstable Portal
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Why nerf arguably one of the few good taunters in the game? So many more cards from the set need to be looked at anyway.
Fixed1979
Member
It's a very strong card that's being run in a lot of decks, I cringe a little every time he comes out. I don't think he needs to be scaled back though, at least not yet.
I need to start paying more attention when I have an Auchenai Soulpriest on the board, there's been a few games where I've gone to heal either myself or a minion. It's a costly brain cramp.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It is arguably slightly over budget and it does kind of replace sunwalker in many if not most decks...
It is a senjin + a goldshire footman wrapped up in one card. Better than if both cards were played separately, which is why I think it is slightly overbudget. They probably should have made the ooze spawn a 0/2, but I don't think it really makes any difference tbh.
lawlohwhat
Banned
Belcher is crazy efficient sometimes but I don't think it's op, seems like exactly what a tank should be really. It's not like it's immune to silence effects or something.
I haven't played with the card much, but wouldn't you want it out as early as possible to take advantage of its mana cost? It has lots of health and is inexpensive, which is offset by its deathrattle downside.
When would be a better time to play it?
I don't think its has replaced sunwalker at all. Many decks running sunwalker are actually running both.
The fact that he's strong but not ubiquitous makes it fine imo. I think the game needs efficient neutral taunts to keep aggro decks in check.
Amen to that.
lawlohwhat
Banned
Absolutely.
Can you imagine taunt-druids right now without the belcher's help given all the midrange hunter and zoo running around? gross.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
If they're running both, that isn't really saying it hasn't replaced it. In decks where you run one or the other, you'd run belcher without question imo.
Also compare it to fen creeper... 3/6, belcher brings 4/6. DOTC is 4/6. Belcher totals 4/7.
I don't think it needs to change, but it is definitely a bit over budget.
Fen creeper is under budget imo. Its only 1hp more than tazdingo and 1 attack less than Druid of the Claw bear form.
Also I also think just adding pure stat totals together is a terrible way to calculate a cards value.
Fixed1979
Member
I suppose it's not as simple as I suggested... For me it really depends on what type of deck your up against and the state of the board. I'll play him against a small creature deck right away without much fear against much fear, especially as a priest. Most other decks can kill him on turn 4 or 5 if you don't have control of the board, so I'm more cautious in every other situation. Some bad RNG on the deathrattle and you can loose the game right there. I'll use him later or when I already have board control with smaller minions, if my opponent manages to come up with the 7 damage (usually more as I buff him given the opportunity) I want to be in a position to deal with what ever comes out of his deck. For it's cost, and ignoring the rattle it's a great card imo, I just want to make sure I'm prepared to deal with the RNG when it happens. I suppose in the end it's a very deck dependant and situational card, which in itself doesn't lend itself to much use. But find a home for it in the right spot I find it very useful.
Keep in mind that I'm not that good at the game, and the card is still relatively new to me.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Perhaps normally I would agree but in this case I value it as a 4/7 and the fact that it is split up is argument that it is even better than the combined stats. In some cases it will exceed the 4/7 value.
Not even touching on its venefits over sunwalker....
Aquavelvaman
Banned
Want to talk about cards with budgets that don't make sense?
What the hell, silverback patriarch.
What the hell, silverback patriarch.
Haunted
Member
Silverback is only one point short of the baseline value for 3 mana cards, but that does make it weaker than average.
Silverback:
+7 from mana cost
-1 for Attack
-4 for HP
-1 for Taunt
-1 for Beast
= 0
Shieldmasta:
+9 from mana cost
-3 for Attack
-5 for HP
-1 for taunt
= 0
Shieldbearer:
+4 from mana cost
-4 for HP
-1 for taunt
= -1
Shieldbearer is the only one who isn't "balanced" according to the typical value distribution formula, and I assume that's because a 0/3 taunt would be really useless as it would only soak up one attack from a 3/2 drop before dying, so they pushed it a bit to make it worthwhile.
+7 from mana cost
-1 for Attack
-4 for HP
-1 for Taunt
-1 for Beast
= 0
Shieldmasta:
+9 from mana cost
-3 for Attack
-5 for HP
-1 for taunt
= 0
Shieldbearer:
+4 from mana cost
-4 for HP
-1 for taunt
= -1
Shieldbearer is the only one who isn't "balanced" according to the typical value distribution formula, and I assume that's because a 0/3 taunt would be really useless as it would only soak up one attack from a 3/2 drop before dying, so they pushed it a bit to make it worthwhile.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Shieldbearer is within budget due to not having any attack.
The silverback patriarch is a beast. It is part of the budget.
CrashPrime
Member
Lol Kel'Thuzad + Belcher + Baron Rivendare shenanigans are hilarious. The game is so weird right now. I kinda like it.
I think Kobold and Dalaran are within budget. Ogre is pushed. Azure Drake is just a rare, more expensive Ogre Magi. 1 point from being Rare and 2 points from costing 1 more mana totals 3 points, which is about what "Draw a card" costs.
Aquavelvaman
Banned
So for 2 mana you get +1 attack and beast synergy? And 1 mana over that you get +2 attack +1 health with no beast synergy.
Still silly.
Haunted
Member
Kel'Thuzad is so fucking powerful in the right circumstances, love it.
I don't think being beast is worth a point. And if you do count that as an extra point in hunter decks only, that'd make many other beast cards above average value, putting the silverback at (comparatively) low value again.
River Crocolisk and Bloodfen Raptor.
Dire Wolf Alpha is... in kind of a grey area.
+5 points from mana cost
-4 for stats
-1 for beast
-1.5 for ability
It's overvalued by 1.5. The obvious comparison here is Flametongue totem, which works similarly.
+5 from mana cost
+1 from class card
-3 for stats
-3 for ability
This tells me that Dire Wolf Alpha may have been a class card in early development, but was moved to the neutral card pool to flesh out aggro strategies. It was never "nerfed" because it was never a problematic card, since it relies on the presence of other cards to be worthwhile. And, ironically, it's not even played in Hunter decks. River Crocolisk sees more play in Hunter Lists than Dire Wolf Alpha does, so Blizzard probably doesn't see any reason to change it.
Anyway it's not like Hunter needs anymore tools so Silverback is fine where it is.
Dire Wolf Alpha is... in kind of a grey area.
+5 points from mana cost
-4 for stats
-1 for beast
-1.5 for ability
It's overvalued by 1.5. The obvious comparison here is Flametongue totem, which works similarly.
+5 from mana cost
+1 from class card
-3 for stats
-3 for ability
This tells me that Dire Wolf Alpha may have been a class card in early development, but was moved to the neutral card pool to flesh out aggro strategies. It was never "nerfed" because it was never a problematic card, since it relies on the presence of other cards to be worthwhile. And, ironically, it's not even played in Hunter decks. River Crocolisk sees more play in Hunter Lists than Dire Wolf Alpha does, so Blizzard probably doesn't see any reason to change it.
Anyway it's not like Hunter needs anymore tools so Silverback is fine where it is.
Dalaran Mage used to be 2/4.
Then he got nerfed to the ground.
I think Blizzard is still traumatized by it.
The problem with being 2/4 is that they can trade with a 3/2, the gold standard for 2 drops, and then some.
Then he got nerfed to the ground.
I think Blizzard is still traumatized by it.
The problem with being 2/4 is that they can trade with a 3/2, the gold standard for 2 drops, and then some.
You say that like its a bad thing. Oh no, a 3 drop can trade favorably with 2 drops? Say it ain't so!
It suppresses aggro strategies. Aggro always had difficulty staying relevant outside of Zoo because it loses board position so easily to AoE. A fast deck comes out as a silver bullet to something or other, and then quickly dies when the meta shifts the barest amount. This is an ongoing problem, one that printing competitively costed 3 mana 2/4s would exacerbate.
Aquavelvaman
Banned
One time Trump made an observation about odd mana cards having an inherant value in having an odd cost, because the only way to spend an odd amount of mana is with an odd cost card.
The cost combinations are
Hero power = even
Odd = odd
Even = even
Odd + hero power = odd
Even + hero power = even
Odd+odd= even
Even + even = even
Odd + even = odd
So there are relatively few ways to spend an odd amount of mana in this game and a lot of ways to spend even amounts of mana. It's not possible to spend an odd amount of mana without an odd card, but there are several ways to spend an even amount of mana without an even card. So odd cards get a little bit of value from filling out the curve on odd mana turns. I think that's why odd cards are generally not as impressive as the 4/6/8's.
The cost combinations are
Hero power = even
Odd = odd
Even = even
Odd + hero power = odd
Even + hero power = even
Odd+odd= even
Even + even = even
Odd + even = odd
So there are relatively few ways to spend an odd amount of mana in this game and a lot of ways to spend even amounts of mana. It's not possible to spend an odd amount of mana without an odd card, but there are several ways to spend an even amount of mana without an even card. So odd cards get a little bit of value from filling out the curve on odd mana turns. I think that's why odd cards are generally not as impressive as the 4/6/8's.
LumpOfCole
Member
Yeah this whole meta is pushing my Warrior deck to equip double Brawls. Brawl ruins everyone.
You can't really argue with the value in arena. It's a Mogu'shan Warden with +1/+1 that will eat 3-4 little minions given enough time on the board, at which point putting a random one back on the board is a fair trade. It also nullifies battlecries.. I laughed pretty hard when he put a Hunter's naked Faceless Manipulator on the board.
He also poses the dilemma as to whether to use Poly/Hex, or actually go through the trouble of trading to gamble on the deathrattle. No one I've seen chose to just trade him for a removal spell, and as a result they actually have to spend a lot of resources to get through all his health.
However, in constructed there are too many Hunters which have too many ways to remove him easily.
Getting both 3 attack and 3 health is a big jump, even if it doesn't seem that way on the surface. It makes them useful at all stages of the game by trading into anything without a good vanilla statline, but not dying to 1-drops.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Lol I get frustrated with Handlock, so I play handlock but never get giants or drakes. Get frustrated with Miracle Rogue, never get Auctioneer. Get frustrated with Ramp druid, never get innervates or wild growths. I feel like when I play ranked my opponents always get their opener/combo but when I play casual it feels like we both get bad starts. Then I play Hunter or Zoo like 6 times in a row and remember that I prefer the variety.
Aquavelvaman
Banned
At least it can trigger wild pyro. Nothing beats getting the classic blade flurry + deadly poison from a miracle.
hypersheep
Member
Turn 2 Innervate + Echoing Ooze + Mark of the Wild the Dream!
Ancient of Lore says hi.
Do you ever stop?
Seriously. Did a druid run off with your mom or something mate?
Here's where I ended up with my priest deck. Pretty happy with it, rank 3 at the moment, and it can definitely get to legend. I've been making a ton of misplays with it though, since priest is the class I've spent the least time with, and auchenai shenanigans can get tricky.
My favorite matches are against control paladins. Nothing like stealing their big minions with aldor/humility + cabal.
My favorite matches are against control paladins. Nothing like stealing their big minions with aldor/humility + cabal.
Minsc
Gold Member
That Heroic Gluth fight... 
I have restarted it like 50 times now, and unfortanutely dumbly played out around 10-15 games where I didn't have oozes in my draw and he didn't have claws... but he always wins (gets a weapon around turn 7 or later).
I tried Hunter, Mage, Priest, nothing works. The RNG hates me. I get an Ooze in my starting hand? He gets 2 weapons. I get 2 Oozes? He gets 3 of his weapon. I get an Ooze with Duplicate on the board? He never trades in to it. I get a Water Elemental on the board and start freezing him in a match where he hasn't drawn a single weapon? He top decks a Abomination. I tried a good two dozen thought steals, not a single weapon.
What a stupid match. I wouldn't mind it nearly as much if he only had 2 of his weapons, but I don't have HJ so all I get are 2 Oozes. I guess another 25-50 tries and the stars will align just perfectly for a win.
I have restarted it like 50 times now, and unfortanutely dumbly played out around 10-15 games where I didn't have oozes in my draw and he didn't have claws... but he always wins (gets a weapon around turn 7 or later).
I tried Hunter, Mage, Priest, nothing works. The RNG hates me. I get an Ooze in my starting hand? He gets 2 weapons. I get 2 Oozes? He gets 3 of his weapon. I get an Ooze with Duplicate on the board? He never trades in to it. I get a Water Elemental on the board and start freezing him in a match where he hasn't drawn a single weapon? He top decks a Abomination. I tried a good two dozen thought steals, not a single weapon.
What a stupid match. I wouldn't mind it nearly as much if he only had 2 of his weapons, but I don't have HJ so all I get are 2 Oozes. I guess another 25-50 tries and the stars will align just perfectly for a win.
That Heroic Gluth fight...
I have restarted it like 50 times now, and unfortanutely dumbly played out around 10-15 games where I didn't have oozes in my draw and he didn't have claws... but he always wins (gets a weapon around turn 7 or later).
I tried Hunter, Mage, Priest, nothing works. The RNG hates me. I get an Ooze in my starting hand? He gets 2 weapons. I get 2 Oozes? He gets 3 of his weapon. I get an Ooze with Duplicate on the board? He never trades in to it. I get a Water Elemental on the board and start freezing him in a match where he hasn't drawn a single weapon? He top decks a Abomination. I tried a good two dozen thought steals, not a single weapon.
What a stupid match. I wouldn't mind it nearly as much if he only had 2 of his weapons, but I don't have HJ so all I get are 2 Oozes. I guess another 25-50 tries and the stars will align just perfectly for a win.
you could try youthful brewmaster to bounce the oozes back into your hand.
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