I'm fairly sure he's making fun of fedoras with it
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
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Dude, Brandon Jacobs life was threatened because of Fantasy fucking Football, nothing is off the table for internet nut jobs.
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504517458917470208
She's one tough lady to regularly put up with this shit.
She's one tough lady to regularly put up with this shit.
Aquamarine
Member
That's the unfortunate reality of trying to challenge the status quo. Good on her for continuing to press the issues despite the considerable backlash.
Swarming101
Member
Imru’ al-Qays;127189133 said:
Name three video games that genuinely explore and challenge the topic of rape and sexual violence in a mature, respectful way. Just depicting it is not enough, as Anita pointed out in the video.
TheHollowNight
Member
I love waking up to my Twitter feed with lots of cool dudes use their platform to advocate Anita's work. Just depressing that it has to come to this though, instead of a lot of people just being able to respect and listen to one women's opinion in the first place, rather than threaten her life on multiple occasions.
That's the unfortunate byproduct of videogames being seen as a haven for antisocial, hypermasculine behavior. I really do hope more and more women enter our industry. With every passing decade, videogames seem to be held more accountable for the behavior of their fanatics and for the flimsiness of their storylines.
I, too, have some disagreements with Anita's final general conclusion in her latest Feminist Frequency, but on the whole, her ability to point to multiple instances of "women as backdrop" was effectively harrowing. It's a trend that is easy to forget, because the characters are brushed aside as quickly as they are introduced, but as characters being brutalized and mutilated, the story deserves to treat them better. I think Bioshock 2, in particular, is an interesting case, because a handful of the upper level devs used the storytelling devices they learned and mastered in the Shock Series and took it with them to make Gone Home, one of the few videogames that encourages a feminist interpretation.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
Well there's um...and um...and don't forget about um...that was a good game.
Jokes aside, things won't fully change until we start getting stronger and more diverse writing in games. Tech ain't even the biggest barrier when it comes to storytelling. It all comes down to writing, because writing is what separates the Miyazakis from the Kojimas.
Riposte
Member
I didn't realize people were that crazy for Ni no Kuni.
I think it gets more slippery as a reaction to when the concept of these aesthetic choices create "harm" is introduced. As opposed to having different tastes, not preventing harm is considered immoral and dangerous, so the clearest solution is to cease the activity that causes it, i.e., censorship. The more emphasis placed on this harm, despite any skepticism vocalized, the more evident that simply disagreeing isn't sufficient (it's no longer a matter of taste). I don't think it would ever go that far, what I instead see is an attempt to have values change so that offending games and their participants gain a lower status and are mocked (e.g., somewhere between how action or animated movies are viewed in higher critical circles and what is considered "smut" and "exploitation"). I see why this would still be problematic, both for the participants and those who disagree with those values as a method of evaluating games (myself included here). That said, I've been on the side of arguing for less sexualization in character design and better representation merely as a matter of taste and the reaction is basically the same, possibly because the narrative has already been set.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
He didn't say there were any.
NeoTankallex
Banned
I'm just wondering, what's her endgame here? I can understand having more video games with a female lead character, I can understand equality of the sexes in the industry, and I'm all for those things. Is she trying to say devs shouldn't use the "damsel in distress" theme? Is she trying to make sure any female (dead or alive) NPC's in games can no longer be scantily dressed? Or is she trying to make it so from now on, any victim in a game must be male, so as not to make women look like the weaker sex?
My take: In the real world, both male and female have been victims of violent crimes, as well as have been exploited sexually to draw members of the opposite sex to a certain product. 95% of the people I work with are women, and it would be a lie to say I haven't heard nearly all of them talk about some shirtless guy from a tv show, movie, concert, or other form of entertainment like they were a piece of meat at one point or another.
My take: In the real world, both male and female have been victims of violent crimes, as well as have been exploited sexually to draw members of the opposite sex to a certain product. 95% of the people I work with are women, and it would be a lie to say I haven't heard nearly all of them talk about some shirtless guy from a tv show, movie, concert, or other form of entertainment like they were a piece of meat at one point or another.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
I agree about the evils of advertising/PR
however - in terms of equivalence :
how many times you hear a woman say they'd rape a guy for holding a certain opinion?
or daring to have a certain job?
or to get back to the work bench and make me some shelves?
There's an imbalance there, it would appear.
NeoTankallex
Banned
I'm a male nurse so I've heard a few sexist things against me doing what I do. However, if I weren't in the field I'm in and hadn't witnessed it firsthand, I could probably see where you're coming from.
As for threatening to rape someone, that's just dispicable behavior.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Good for him!
Tim Schafer too. Nice. [Edit: despite him getting tons of flak on Twitter for this. People are such douches. Tim is the man!]
Improving the content and writing in video games.
Phat Michael
Banned
It seems from people posting on vids about her that she removes all negative feedback from her website and doesn't allow comments on her youtube videos.
I understand people post some offensive stuff but how is she supposed to evolve and make better videos if she doesn't allow people to objectively critique her?
I understand people post some offensive stuff but how is she supposed to evolve and make better videos if she doesn't allow people to objectively critique her?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
You could try contacting her with some constructive criticism. I wonder if anyone has tried that yet!
There are other (And better) ways to critique besides using Youtube comments.
figadapaura
Member
It astonishes me that she has to put up with this shit. What sad, pathetic individuals.
lol, or he just likes the hat. It's not like it's some political statement
Earthpainting
Member
I won't speak for her, but I don't think the endgame is the removal of these elements. The idea is to have enough variation that the subjects she touches on will stop looking like a pattern. Human brains are wired for pattern recognition and they can influence people's opinions and biases. You only have to think about how many people associate colours with genders to see how this works. If we have enough examples that sidestep these tropes, the potential impact of these influences will be lessened. Better representation of women or any sort of minority will also help shape role models and aspirations in those in those demographics. It may not seem like much to some, but it can mean the world to others.
The ultimate goal would still be have some scantly clad dames, ladies that need saving, and all that stuff, but we'd also have many other types as well. Basically reinforcing that characters need to be seen as individuals, and not as minstrel show persiflage of whatever demographic they are part of. So in summary, people don't want less, they want more.
captainnapalm
Member
I'm not a fan of much of the kind of feminist theory and criticism Anita makes use of, I feel as an academic approach it's flawed.
But one thing you can say about her is that she keeps it professional and maintains an academic tone. That already makes it so much better than so much of the noise you get exposed to in a similar vein.
There is a kernel of truth to everything she says, and there are valid cases of sexism (or bad writing) she points out. I support her right to do it and people need to stop sending her threats and abuse. It's totally unnecessary. It's fine to disagree, but there's no need to feel threatened.
But one thing you can say about her is that she keeps it professional and maintains an academic tone. That already makes it so much better than so much of the noise you get exposed to in a similar vein.
There is a kernel of truth to everything she says, and there are valid cases of sexism (or bad writing) she points out. I support her right to do it and people need to stop sending her threats and abuse. It's totally unnecessary. It's fine to disagree, but there's no need to feel threatened.
Not cool.
Vide game culture doesn't deserve Sarkeesian.
I have worked as a kindergarten teacher and experienced both of these frequently.
thewhitehawk
Member
I agree with you that no one, not just Sarkeesian, deserves the type of abuse she's receiving, but I completely disagree with you that we don't deserve her, or the work she does.
This medium has been for the longest time dominated by male programmers and gamers and now that the market has changed women need to voice their opinion firmly and strongly to counter decades-long male-dominated culture.
If women want to have proper representation in the gaming culture, be recognised as equals and respected as colleagues in the industry they need to speak up against the things that diminish the importance of their sex.
If you think video game culture doesn't deserve Sarkeesian, or others like her, then you're saying women don't deserve to be a part of video game culture.
I'm not saying it's easy for women to be a part of this group of people, I know it isn't, but if these concerns aren't voiced with in a loud, clear and concise voice with good arguments and if women don't voice their gaming preferences by paying for games that do a good job of representing both sexes in a fair manner, regardless of context, then this situation will simply never change. The only way for women to enjoy gaming will be to segregate themselves, as some do, into small groups of friends or of the same sex in order to enjoy themselves. They will have to segregate themselves from an activity that at its core is meant to entertain and bring people together.
I'm sorry it's so hard for women to be accepted and treated differently in gaming but I'm not sorry, nor thankful for Sarkeesian's existence. She, or someone like her, simply has to exist in order for things to change for the better. If she is silenced, then the vilest and loudest part of the gaming community won.
Wiktor
Member
Interesting video as usual. Dishonored as example was heavy reaching and doesn't really belong in this argument (gamer needs to actively engage to get those scenes, the prostitutes aren't really sexy in the game and all of those are merely one subset of generally shitty reality in the game), but overall great video.
I just imagined you reading YouTube comments, stroking your chin as you pondered over the thoughtful responses, and said to yourself, "Thank god for the YouTube comments section. Truly a bastion of civil, intelligent discourse."
Wiktor
Member
Have you even played Dishonored?
The women there aren't naked, not actually all that sexy and you're not supposed to murder those women, just avoid them when sneaking into your male targets.
And brothels were a natural part of the societies the game based it's setting on. No point in pretending prostitution doesn't exist. It makes especially big sense in a world like Dishonored that's going to hell when that brothel was really the only truly beautiful and peaceful location in the whole game.
The only women you are supposed to murder in big numners in Dishonored are Witches in DLCs and they are pretty much the most dangerous enemies in the whole game.
Phat Michael
Banned
So I pose a question and get instantly attacked with sarcastic comments from her fans, even though I didn't say anything negative about her at all. Now I see why I shouldn't bother posting in these types of threads. There is no objectivity here.
Apparently Sarkeesian could not sleep in her own home last night because apparently criticizing the representation of women in video games is too much to handle for some gamers. Fuck this culture.
When such a large number of gamers consistently and constantly harass and resist the ones speaking out against the status quo, I simply fail to see how such a culture deserves to receive quality perspectives and viewpoints by courageous and insightful persons like Sarkeesian. I truly appreciate and love that she is able to persevere, but I would never blame her for quitting this whole thing because of the rampant sexism in video game culture.
We saw this with Samantha Allen. We saw it with Zoe Quinn. We saw it with Phil Fish. And gods know how many other people have been forced to quit video game culture because of the overwhelming amount of gamers spewing sexist bullshit, coupled with the silent neutral middleground who doesn't take a visible stand against the harassers and naysayers.
EDIT: Ab.aeterno eloquently and more diplomatically expands upon this cultural problem in another thread:
When such a large number of gamers consistently and constantly harass and resist the ones speaking out against the status quo, I simply fail to see how such a culture deserves to receive quality perspectives and viewpoints by courageous and insightful persons like Sarkeesian. I truly appreciate and love that she is able to persevere, but I would never blame her for quitting this whole thing because of the rampant sexism in video game culture.
We saw this with Samantha Allen. We saw it with Zoe Quinn. We saw it with Phil Fish. And gods know how many other people have been forced to quit video game culture because of the overwhelming amount of gamers spewing sexist bullshit, coupled with the silent neutral middleground who doesn't take a visible stand against the harassers and naysayers.
EDIT: Ab.aeterno eloquently and more diplomatically expands upon this cultural problem in another thread:
TheHollowNight
Member
i think I want to hug you Lime, like just a little bit.
Not cool.
I thought the video raised a lot of valid points. I absolutely do not understand why some gamers try to deny this stuff. Can't they just ignore the videos? The rage and threats make no sense.
But then you might think the people who actually make the games would be more defensive when that's not really the case.
Consumers who conflate their identity with a product they like are not actually responding logically, whatever emotional response they might have, and I'm not entirely sure it's the responsibility of a critic to explain to people on the internet that they are not their video games.
Nobody should watch this video, it's filled with lies, say people on the internet who have never watched this video.
Quite a few people seem to think that if they disagree with anything in her videos whatsoever, they must dismiss everything she has to contribute as worthless lies and trash.
Which makes sense I guess since that seems to be what they think she's saying about video games, when it clearly isn't. Some people have very basic understandings of how criticism works.
RpgN
Junior Member
This is a large reason why I respect what Anita does and the change that she brought for never stopping. Despite me disagreeing with some of her examples or thoughts, her effort is reaching the same goals many before her weren't strong enough to reach. I remember years ago how I used to have heated discussions on neogaf and how my opinion used to be so weak for being the only voice and feeling frustrated. Ever since her kickstarter began, things changed rapidly. Suddenly there were more women willing to come out and talk. I'm truly happy that we have come this far to have that at least.
I think when it comes to such a sensitive topic, having a strong person is more important than that person knowing how to share thoughts in the best possible way. We definitely need people like her, she is strong enough to continue and not be afraid after one problem. Her presence alone brought progress, even if it's baby step.
edit:
In turn, I think this is having positive effects on other problems. More people within the industry are willing to talk about what they experience. Other minority groups are becoming more critical and vocal. Everyone will benefit out of having better representation, better treatment at work/public spots, better writing and stories told from different perspectives too.
Plenty of valid stuff in the videos as usual.
There are a few inaccurate things about some of the games though.
Watchdogs is slightly off in that one can capture the assailant and stop any kind of assault before it really gets started. You just have to make a move the second the alert turns red.
I do find the arguments/presentation a bit off in games where just as bad (if not worse) things happen to male/alien/animals and it's weird just singling out the female scenarios (which may just be one event out of hundreds).
I mean, in Watchdogs you have female characters doing everything from talking about everyday life to blowing off "pervs" and "jerks" as they should/would. They're dressed normally, they drive normally in the streets, they go about their day. The game has angles of all life, good and bad. Some games are being cherry picked, but I'd expect that.
Many moments are legit concerns, but the above makes me (and my wife agrees) wonder why it is included when it misrepresents an entire game just to benefit the subject matter (when there are other good, not smoke and mirror, examples).
There are a few inaccurate things about some of the games though.
Watchdogs is slightly off in that one can capture the assailant and stop any kind of assault before it really gets started. You just have to make a move the second the alert turns red.
I do find the arguments/presentation a bit off in games where just as bad (if not worse) things happen to male/alien/animals and it's weird just singling out the female scenarios (which may just be one event out of hundreds).
I mean, in Watchdogs you have female characters doing everything from talking about everyday life to blowing off "pervs" and "jerks" as they should/would. They're dressed normally, they drive normally in the streets, they go about their day. The game has angles of all life, good and bad. Some games are being cherry picked, but I'd expect that.
Many moments are legit concerns, but the above makes me (and my wife agrees) wonder why it is included when it misrepresents an entire game just to benefit the subject matter (when there are other good, not smoke and mirror, examples).
I still think the Dishonored bit in particular is dishonest and completely inaccurate.
Her points are interesting but I've felt many times now that certain games have been mis-represented. Ultimately doesn't sully her points, of course, but it does weaken the argument a bit.
None of that deserves the absurd response she is receiving from internet assholes, though. Makes it hard to even discuss these videos when there are people over-reacting so violently over this stuff. Ridiculous.
That's an issue I have as well. In situations such as that the women characters are basically given equal treatment with others. Singling them out and ignoring the rest is dishonest.
Do we know how she goes about reviewing the content in these games? I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm curious. Does she actually play through these games herself or are other people gathering examples for her (or something else entirely)?
Wiktor
Member
Yes, but this doesn't trash the whole thing Too many people when considering their passion (which games are for most of us gamers), treat it as some sort of zero sum game. They either disagree with Anita so "obviously its all feminist BS", with even one mistake validating their dismisal of everything she talks about. Other people value equality and aren't sexist, so some of them fall into opposite trap of taking everything she says as absolute truth.
I don't agree with everything she says and some of her examples are a huge stretch, but the thing I value the most about this videos is that they make me question my views and convictions. It's uncomfortable at times, but it's very enriching excercise. Those questions can sometimes lead to me thinking "damn, I never thought about it this way, but she's damn right", other times my answer is "nope, I don't think that's true". But the fact that I do have to ask myself those questions, that I have to analyze instead of passively consuming is the true value of those videos to me
It would improve the quality of the videos if the dishonest and misleading examples like Dishonored this time and Hitman last time were left out. There would still be plenty of material without them.
Wow.
Disgusting to see she still gets nasty threats.
I always thought her critiques should just be seen in context with any other literary criticism of other media such as books, film, comics, tv series etc. It's nothing that *should* be controversial to anyone who has even remotely been exposed to academic analysis.
It speaks volumes about some elements of the gaming community that they respond in this fashion rather than engage in debate.
Disgusting to see she still gets nasty threats.
I always thought her critiques should just be seen in context with any other literary criticism of other media such as books, film, comics, tv series etc. It's nothing that *should* be controversial to anyone who has even remotely been exposed to academic analysis.
It speaks volumes about some elements of the gaming community that they respond in this fashion rather than engage in debate.
Funny to see people responding to him saying they are upset and disappointed to see this from him because of how much they loved The Last of Us since he partially credits Sarkeesian's work with improving his writing and understanding during that creative process.
She acknowledges this when she says the women exist only to be brutalized to give the player something to do within the game world.
And the difference between the bad things that happen to women in games compared to the bad things that happen to men in games, as Anita points out, is that the kind of sexualized violence perpetrated against female bodies in video games reflects real world abuse that happens on an epidemic scale. Most women have felt sexually threatened at one time or another. Most men have not been nearly gunned down.
It's like why games that want to deal with racism do so through elves and dwarves as proxies most of the time rather than confronting real world issues of racism. Because some topics are too sensitive for video games to handle well most of the time, but this hasn't stopped them from portraying female abuse almost casually.
While I disagree with the vitriol and do think that some of the reactions are purely because they're conflating criticism of a game they like with criticism of themselves I think these episodes prove the disconnect between the outsider/insider when it comes to talking about video games. All of these threads we have people who put forth a lot of evidence why she's wrong about certain gamesa lot of it that's obvious to anyone who's really spent time with them. It's like any other form of criticism. And while I think being a core gamer can breed a sense of insulation and inability to get perspective on an issue, we're also the ones who can actually talk knowledgeably about these things where she can't (perhaps not for lack of trying.)
Riposte
Member
Literally "us or them", eh? The harassers and naysayers are now to be grouped together as one and the same, are they? I suppose this militant interpretation of events is inevitable the more energy you spend taking a problem and turning it into a singular enemy of increasing antagonism (le gamers), attribute the very worst qualities to the whole in the process. On one hand there's the amicable "we want more, not less" and then there's this. Many people feel passionate about the unfairness or unevenness evident in the large issue of "women in videogames", but few others have the constitution, daring, or absoluteness go to such an extent. That one and single dehumanized "other", if you disagree with the overall message you are also guilty of the acts of direct aggression by association and now if you don't agree, fail to muster the correct amount of devotion to this cause, you are responsible in another sense. Now any argument that holds any reservation, any argument not pointed at this apparently unmoving "status quo", can become the source of misanthropic thoughts. This is evidence that the actions of the gamers who produce aggressively misogynistic material are truly powerful, because how else could they have created such a single-minded, irrepressible response of resentment. You can just about feel the heat of your hatred over the internet, your frustrations that others can't empathize with your hate, but I don't know if that makes the call to arms anymore appealing than lighting yourself on fire.
Still, even if there's something to this strategy, I don't know what this middle ground is suppose to do against something like the harassment against folks like Sarkeesian and Quinn face or online harassment as it exists in all too many forms. I think it was somewhere during the chaos of last week I saw someone grieve that if only there were more people on 4chan that had the decency to talk people out of doing these things. I can't help but find that idea surprisingly naive of anyone who would make a collective boogeyman out of the diverse range of assholes of the internet. I guess it would be nice, for the ideologue at least, to have these sexist jerks gone from the imagination, but then videogames would have to exist in a vacuum, far away from this world that produces sexist jerks whom exist on a scale far beyond any medium or subject. Videogames, gamers, 4chan, twitter, and so on would have to be on a different planet, for the removal of a middle ground to really matter or for the clean elimination of the enemy be in any way realistic.
The great irony is that for the past oh, I dunno, 15 years say, there has been an ever increasing expectation and demand for games to be taken legitimately as an art form by wider society.
As soon as gaming gets big enough to attract the kind of attention and by extension, criticism for its shortcomings as is expected to be seen in all artistic media, then the reactions turn ugly.
People get angry and deny all of this because they think they are being personally attacked and are too afraid to maybe challenge themselves and their own personal beliefs. When in reality she's just pointing out some things in an organized way and saying "Some of these things that are in games relatively frequently are pretty fucked up".
I started typing a very long text about what I think but then I realized that I cant properly word it without spending a day.
Really great video, I admit that I don't agree with everything but I don't have to in order to realize there is a big problem with this and I'm glad she is making these videos to raise attention.
Its shame that you have to tiptoe around the subject to not agitate either side which makes it such a giant hassle to have a real discussion.
People sending her threats over this are the worst.
Really great video, I admit that I don't agree with everything but I don't have to in order to realize there is a big problem with this and I'm glad she is making these videos to raise attention.
Its shame that you have to tiptoe around the subject to not agitate either side which makes it such a giant hassle to have a real discussion.
People sending her threats over this are the worst.
Wiktor
Member
True, but I don't treat those episodes as educational factbook, but as food for though. A lot of her points are valid or at least worthy of consideration. Her examples are often wrong, but I've been gamer long enough that in such cases I can often replace those on my own with more accurate examples.
theshape31
Member
What a brave and courageous person she is for continuing to move forward and progress the conversation. I am so very proud of what she has accomplished, and I feel for her having to go through such terrible ordeals. There is too much hate in the world, and we need to all do a better job of setting a better example for each other.