The Librarian
Banned
Well, there were a couple of people who said that. And a lot of other annoyed people.
I just call it as I see it!
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
- Start date
Well, there were a couple of people who said that. And a lot of other annoyed people.
I just call it as I see it!
And I just call it because I was in the thread, and you're attributing it to a broader group than I observed? The person accusing you was banned, as was the one other person who agreed with that accusation. The moderation is tight assuming people give feedback to the mods, when things feel out of line.
Le_Samourai
Banned
I always wonder why they are no women raiders in the game, the only kind of human enemy you kill over and over are men, i guess he didn't want to offend woman, but isn't sexist to ignore that certain woman in certain cases, are just as much willing to kill and steal other people as men?
Memory issues, per the devs. Was planned but not implemented in the final build due to not having room.
The Librarian
Banned
It's a classic reaction to women gaining more equality and political agency; just like in the suffragette days:
Most of the conversation everywhere all the time being dominated by people who share your perspective must make it really jarring to hear about other people's point of view or experience.
It's like they've never attempted empathy before and they don't like the feeling.
I think he was referring to his writing of the much lauded female characters in the game, actually.
But there are women in the multiplayer, although as far as I can tell your character presentation there is assigned randomly.
Yeah, towards the end of a system's lifecycle memory issues become a pretty huge deal. And that threshold seems to be hit sooner and sooner in each generation.
Still not exactly... knowing how to respond to that link posted by Lime.
*sigh*
I guess we just play different games then, since overwhelmingly the ones that I'm more familiar with involve a tragic start point either aimed squarely at the protagonist or the world at large, rather than only women or even at the majority. Over the course of the game, problems predominantly involve men, but will also involve women at times on a case by case basis. So, that statement of you make that should exclude women from conflict, tragety, or other circumstances being unfavorable rings a bit hollow to me.
The CSI:SVU is largely biased towards female victims of the ones I've observed, but that is subject matter related.
They blamed insufficient RAM for that but I'm not entirely sure if I'm buying that excuse
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Anita's doing great work. I salute her for being able to keep on voicing out all of these valid observations, even in the face of direct, terrifying threats to her personal safety.
Women ARE often relegated to props in games. This IS a problem. And I'm glad some game studios and developers agree with her. I expect things WILL change for the better, and I do believe Anita's work contribute to this valuable progress.
Women ARE often relegated to props in games. This IS a problem. And I'm glad some game studios and developers agree with her. I expect things WILL change for the better, and I do believe Anita's work contribute to this valuable progress.
I'll go ahead and believe that someone wanted to include female models. But good intentions don't put women on the screen.
At some point, somebody or somebodies got together in a room, stack-ranked features, and then drew a cut line above "female enemy goons".
EdibleKnife
Member
What you have to understand is that all of this criticism comes with the inclusion of the overall reduced role of women within the specific game and video games as a whole. Going to Red Dead Redemption (a game I love) for a moment, I'll address how much I liked Bonnie. I personally thought she was one of the better characters within the game an served a purpose to the plot. When she encountered her own troubles, despite John's chivalrous nature and due to the way the relationship between the two was formed through their interactions, I did not feel like John helped her simply because she was a woman in danger but rather because they came off as friends. Included in the trio of the women with relevant roles within the game were
John's wife
despite her martyrdom later in the story
Brian_FETO
Banned
I watched this earlier, first of her work I've seen after reading a lot of the controversy surrounding her.
For the most part, I agreed with what she was saying. The only one I sortof disagree with was the Bioshock 1 Eve's Garden sequence. While it does fall into the trope of sexiness/brutal murder to invoke a response, it's also a pretty important part of the backstory. Doesn't necessarily excuse it (and I know "important to the story" is a bit of a cop out), but I don't know if I would put it up there with most of the other examples
Really well made video, nice to see her presenting her points in an informative manner rather than confrontational/condescending. Terrible that she gets so much hate thrown at her from idiots
For the most part, I agreed with what she was saying. The only one I sortof disagree with was the Bioshock 1 Eve's Garden sequence. While it does fall into the trope of sexiness/brutal murder to invoke a response, it's also a pretty important part of the backstory. Doesn't necessarily excuse it (and I know "important to the story" is a bit of a cop out), but I don't know if I would put it up there with most of the other examples
Really well made video, nice to see her presenting her points in an informative manner rather than confrontational/condescending. Terrible that she gets so much hate thrown at her from idiots
you know, this does kind of piss me off, it's to the point where other people get attacked simply for retweeting or supporting her work. it's ridiculous.
I really like Anita, and as far as I can tell the worst thing she could be accused of is on occasion maybe presenting a particular game a bit out of context -- But as far as her overall points, it's pretty hard to deny them. Her views are presented intelligently and politely. She's not a firebreather. I just do not understand the negativity. If you disagree, fine, but why be a dick about it?
I'm glad she's making these videos!
Yeah, seriously. With all the viciousness around her, you'd expect some sort of fire breathing beast.
She's totally professional and academic in these videos. It's a valid work of criticism.
Are people really that fucking uncomfortable with hearing someone legitimately provide critical and academically compelling work?
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I don't know if I buy that.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
yes. I think that's what it boils down to. They are.
I'm not even sure what the fuck is going on. From the sounds of things on Twitter, Adam Baldwin (Jayne from Firefly) has somehow gotten involved with shit like "Social Justice is code for Communism", and basically being in favour of the stuff that happened to Zoe Quinn and Anita.
I repeat, what the fuck is going on!?
shacklesmcgee
Member
I thought I had heard before that Baldwin was a kind of a prick...
Well Baldwin's very next tweet is this:
So... I guess not really surprising that he jumped on this shit.
Adam Baldwin continues to be a terrible human being
Disgusting prick
Christ. What a douche.
With that pleasant thought swirling in my head, I think I need to call it a night. Hope it all works out for everyone.
shacklesmcgee
Member
Wow he really is, he retweeted this the other day
https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/504788353397436417
Well....fuck you Jane
burntchomsky
Member
Well this is just ludicrous.
No doubt what she says is true regarding sexualization of women, etc. in mainstream games. The idiotic thing is to act like she is saying anything novel. 95% of the games she's reviewing are mainstream hits featuring "typical features" such as macho male protagonist, battle between good and evil (with stereotypically pure evil villian), extreme violence, etc.. That is to say, they are mass-created games aimed at sales, nothing else.
If she wants to rage, rage at the people who buy this stuff up by the millions. Games that don't do what she is railing against simply don't sell. "The problem is not in your stars but in your people."
The fact is that while reviewers do review stereotypical hollywood BS movies, no critic worth anything walks into the review with their eyes closed, then exclaims "but how, oh how could rambo kill those innocents? And why are his muscles so big?"
All a review Iike this does is preach to the crowd and state the obvious. Drivel.
No doubt what she says is true regarding sexualization of women, etc. in mainstream games. The idiotic thing is to act like she is saying anything novel. 95% of the games she's reviewing are mainstream hits featuring "typical features" such as macho male protagonist, battle between good and evil (with stereotypically pure evil villian), extreme violence, etc.. That is to say, they are mass-created games aimed at sales, nothing else.
If she wants to rage, rage at the people who buy this stuff up by the millions. Games that don't do what she is railing against simply don't sell. "The problem is not in your stars but in your people."
The fact is that while reviewers do review stereotypical hollywood BS movies, no critic worth anything walks into the review with their eyes closed, then exclaims "but how, oh how could rambo kill those innocents? And why are his muscles so big?"
All a review Iike this does is preach to the crowd and state the obvious. Drivel.
So basically you agree that it has become wholly normative to use violence against nameless women as short-hand for mustache-twirling.
And you don't see how that's problematic or how that would affect cultural behaviors.
And please direct us towards the bountiful and comprehensive works around this very subject in video games.
It's ludicrous that anyone should think it is normative or continue to perpetuate it.
It's also equally ludicrous that even simply pointing it out is literally the worst thing anyone can do (in the realm of video games of all things) and the way people lash out is to actually physically harass these people by threatening their lives and families.
It's also even more ludicrous that game devs have taken the criticism to heart, followed by their so-called-fans basically becoming despondent that their favourite game developers have basically 'been co-oped by the feminist agenda.'
Riposte
Member
Completely ignoring suspension of disbelief, sure. The alternative you present is simply so much worse than asking the player to lessen the link between combat scenarios with the plot embodied by the cutscenes in their minds; it limits creativity to a lethal extent and, for as much games can be flawed, what is gained doesn't seem worth it in the slightest.
I would argue there's already too much focus on "story", when videogames, even the linear cutscene-filled ones (e.g., Metal Gear Solid), are more like places or dreams that have "atmosphere" above all else, which the story is just one thing among many that is in service of. Most videogame story critiques I've seen, biting as they are, are a waste of time, like judging a cube as a square (if not an oval), for the reason that atmosphere doesn't need to make concrete sense like a story does nor does a story need to be "good" in the sense of a film to contribute to an atmosphere and that the judgment of aesthetics of games often hinges on how somber or functional a game story is simply not doing their effective immersion or escapism justice, losing a lot of material along the way (likely patting oneself on the back while doing so).
But I admit I'm on a complete tangent.
EDIT: "waste of time" is too harsh, since they can bring up fine points, I mean to say their conclusions are hopelessly narrow and fail to capture what a videogame is.
True enough, but there's an unfortunate leap between this and "YOU DON'T DESERVE FEZ 2/ANITA SARKEESIAN", and responses like the latter, as you see them here, on twitter, and elsewhere, are simply more front and center, given thoughtfulness always takes a backseat on the internet and revenge rides shotgun. To me it seems clear that people take the issue that the more subtle, casual forms of sexism that is obviously going to exist in a widespread fashion male-dominant hobby (referring to hobbyist), as this form of sexism is common amongst boys and men in general, and combine it carelessly with the overt actions taken in the name of aggressive misogyny with what is by any definition a very small minority (as such the industry/community/culture can become infinitely more "toxic", 100% pure 4chan). Perhaps equating the two is nice and dandy as a way to make a convenient enemy that raises the stakes, but I don't think the intent here is "discussion", as it creates a discussion no one really wants to be apart of - a discussion with those harassing doxing gamers. I think it also has a way of swaying arguments into fallacious conclusions, even just on an emotional basis. For example, based on this alone, it is easy to take another leap and say that videogames as a medium is instrumental in these attitudes on this alone; the problem here being "correlation does not imply causation". When the level of toxicity is hyped up, it's also easy to establish an "us or them", no middle ground attitude. I think it is entirely fair to take issue with the "gamers as human garbage" type of comments, because they lean on simplifying the issue into an absurdly pessimistic view that is, frankly, masturbatory. It's maybe a kind of particularly bad twitter discussion.
Angry Fork
Member
I feel like whether or not you enjoy these videos depends on if you accept the idea that a ''final'' goal of society should be a place where there's little to no distinction between men and women. In the sense that there are no more 'stereotypes' or mainstream characteristics that can be applied to men or women. I'm honestly not sure where I fall on that yet. I probably support that end goal, but I'm a bit iffy on guilt tripping every writer because they didn't include everything every demographic may want in their story.
Obviously I'm for equality and if that's what feminism is then I don't have a problem being called that, but I don't think any story where a guy saves a damsel in distress is automatically sexist. It feels like there are different sects of feminism that view shit differently. And at some point you could make an argument for every type of female character being sexist from a certain viewpoint. A woman who's a sex worker for example could be viewed as a victim of exploitation/violence, or someone who just enjoys sex and wants to make a living off of it, or both.
You can have an opinion on which one is right and argue that but if a game or movie portrays only one of those I don't see why it's reasonable to chastise them for not doing the other. Like at some point unless a game has every possible variation, dozens of different women with their own distinct personalities then nobody is going to be happy. And men get upset about this too when they say most male game characters are bald grizzled war vets. But I have such little regard for games stories/characters that it's hard to care when they suck, it's the norm compared to film/TV.
Obviously I'm for equality and if that's what feminism is then I don't have a problem being called that, but I don't think any story where a guy saves a damsel in distress is automatically sexist. It feels like there are different sects of feminism that view shit differently. And at some point you could make an argument for every type of female character being sexist from a certain viewpoint. A woman who's a sex worker for example could be viewed as a victim of exploitation/violence, or someone who just enjoys sex and wants to make a living off of it, or both.
You can have an opinion on which one is right and argue that but if a game or movie portrays only one of those I don't see why it's reasonable to chastise them for not doing the other. Like at some point unless a game has every possible variation, dozens of different women with their own distinct personalities then nobody is going to be happy. And men get upset about this too when they say most male game characters are bald grizzled war vets. But I have such little regard for games stories/characters that it's hard to care when they suck, it's the norm compared to film/TV.
To be frank, discussions of this level are above the heads of a lot of people that watch this video. There's a level of nuance that is oft-ignored in a transient/anonymous avenue such as a web forum that's amplified by 1000% on Twitter.
It's pretty clear to me that she's intimating that all of these games showing this are symptomatic of mass media and is thus creating an (un)virtuous cycle. The fact that they're so pervasive hand-in-hand WITH violence is exceptionally problematic.
It would take extreme mental gymnastics to see this video and believe that she's calling for rash self-censorship. Rather, it's more of an identification of - "This is the status quo and that is not right. Let's be thoughtful about how and what we normalize in this very nascent medium."
It's pretty clear to me that she's intimating that all of these games showing this are symptomatic of mass media and is thus creating an (un)virtuous cycle. The fact that they're so pervasive hand-in-hand WITH violence is exceptionally problematic.
It would take extreme mental gymnastics to see this video and believe that she's calling for rash self-censorship. Rather, it's more of an identification of - "This is the status quo and that is not right. Let's be thoughtful about how and what we normalize in this very nascent medium."
EdibleKnife
Member
Wait. So you acknowledge the bold as a problem that exists right? It has yet to change though which is why it is still worth talking about openly. There's things that need to be changed on both the creative front and the overall buying habits of a majority of gamers in order to change the normality. If you build it, they will come. It's obvious that their are people speaking up about varied experiences and support it when they get it. That trend just needs to continue until games aren't as single-minded. This video is for gamers as much as it is for developers. To recognize these tropes, how they are problematic, and hopefully that the gamers will seek out experiences that buck the norm and give their money to those games and not ones that keep the status quo.
jacksepticeye
Member
The internet is an EXTREMELY harsh place at times. Even with the best intentions you get absolute shit for it
The God of War example in particular was really just flat-out gross. I get that you're this complete shithead of an anti-hero, but literally escorting a bare-chested woman pleading for her life and only end up using her as a glorified pillar?
Shit's gross, and I'm glad I never bought a game in that series.
The fact that we don't even blink at something like that in our industry (granted, the most common finisher is popping off someone's head in that game) is proof that it has a lot of growing up to do.
Shit's gross, and I'm glad I never bought a game in that series.
The fact that we don't even blink at something like that in our industry (granted, the most common finisher is popping off someone's head in that game) is proof that it has a lot of growing up to do.
Someone earlier in the thread pointed out that an unfortunate number of gamers behave rather similar to sports fans, not just enjoying or engaging with a product but adopting it as part of their identity. Perhaps this is where the contentiousness comes from that simply doesn't seem to be quite as prevalent across other mediums. A big part of what can bond a community of sports fans together is the rivalry with an opposing team. It creates identity and an enemy to rally against.
It's simple and straight forward, while these videos are at least somewhat nuanced and require introspection which could result in division or isolation from the group.
It's simple and straight forward, while these videos are at least somewhat nuanced and require introspection which could result in division or isolation from the group.
Big-ass Ramp
hella bullets that's true
I'm trying to be real sensitive about this and not imply anything, but isn't this something someone could easily fake almost as a false flag attack?
I mean... if you're going to threaten someone, why would you leave your full name like that?
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Well this is easily solved? Let's just look him up on twitter.
Edit: mean't to quote ramp.
Edit: mean't to quote ramp.
EdibleKnife
Member
I played the first three and honestly regret it. Even when I was playing, that part in particular turned my stomach over. It was so unnecessary on multiple levels and made me dislike Kratos more than I ever did before. It was a straight up blight.
Angry Fork
Member
I've complained about this multiple times on gaf but only a few people agreed, rest of them gave that shitty excuse about him being an anti-hero (irrelevant). There was some trophy attached too that basically said Kratos should have raped her or something. That part of the game pretty much soured me on God of War 3 entirely. Partly also because they tried to "redeem" him at the end, it was so dumb.
"I'm not saying, but I'm saying."
The obsession with conspiracy theories on the internet is a fucking blight.
Riposte
Member
By any measure, Kratos is a horrible, murderous person, but visuals and context of that scenario (e.g., who it involves and how drawn out it is) is by far worse than anything else he does in the 3 games I played. Unlike most of Kratos's enemies the character is 100% sympathetic given the written note you can find too. I'm pretty sure people did blink, although if cutting heads is where you draw the line I can't help you.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Don't mean to be a dick but the part is actually from 3
Yeah pretty much once a page for like the first 12 pages people were bringing it up from the video. It's so unnesscecary and quite frankly random. There is no build up to it or anything, just a naked chick, throw her under the mechanism.
I only brought up the "popping heads off" to contextualize the low baseline of violence within that series.
EdibleKnife
Member
Don't mean to be a dick but the part is actually from 3
Totally right. Those games all blended together for me. I thought it was 2.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
K well the user is suspended, don't know much about twitter but I guess he's banned?
edit: im guessing it was just a random, throwaway account, the lil thing said he only did 10 tweets. Again, don't know if that's just counting towards Sarkeesian.
Most people who enjoy prostitution in games are not adults. And as Anita said, these themes are there for the 'cool' factor. I remember the release of the original GOW, I was 13 at the time, and all I could hear about is how cool it was to regenerate your health by sleeping with women.
A lot of these tropes are used to satisfy the male demographic. There are some games that are ridiculous and outrageous on all fronts on all fronts so I don't think it's as bad when they do it (such as NMH, for example) because it never really says anything about the state of women or... or anything. It's just stupid fun. But there are some games that really do undermine women, and I've been noticing it a lot in western AAA titles as well. I've seen all her videos up to this point, I really do believe that the "background decoration" trope is the worst and most degrading one.
Big-ass Ramp
hella bullets that's true
I'm not accusing, but it's a possibility, right? I'm not going to join this debate, but I'm just surprised people are taking a twitter account with no picture at face value. It's so easily fabricated.
I mean, the one thing you can say about all that uguu kawaii bullshit that we like to make fun of is that at least there's not a heavy undertone of sexual violence in and around of it.
Low bar and all.
1. Woman creates a fake twitter account to threaten her life and then reports it to the police and stays away from her home, which becomes a part of public record, putting her planted story at risk for discovery.
2. Woman is threatened by a lunatic and then reports it to the police and stays away from her home.
Low bar and all.
Let me introduce you to Occam's Razor. Which scenario is more likely to you?
1. Woman creates a fake twitter account to threaten her life and then reports it to the police and stays away from her home, which becomes a part of public record, putting her planted story at risk for discovery.
2. Woman is threatened by a lunatic and then reports it to the police and stays away from her home.